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[ORAS] ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.

  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    We have ORAS OU set up now, so it's time to work on our tiers.

    This thread is for discussing potential suspects, metagame trends and just a general place of dicussion for the OU tier.

    ===================
    ORAS OU Ban List

    - Pokemon: Aegislash, Arceus, Blaziken, Darkrai, Deoxys-A, Deoxys-D, Deoxys-S, Deoxys-N, Dialga, Genesect, Giratina, Giratina-O, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Kyogre, Kyurem-W, Landorus-I, Lugia, Mewtwo, Palkia, Rayquaza, Reshiram, Shaymin-S, Xerneas, Yveltal, Zekrom,
    - Items: Gengarite, Kangaskhanite, Lucarionite, Mawilite, Salamenceite, Soul Dew,

    - Moves: Swagger, Baton Pass

    XY OU Clauses

    - Sleep Clause
    - Species Clause
    - Self-KO Clause
    - OHKO Clause
    - Evasion Clause
    - Moody Clause
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 11, 2016
  2. Virizion

    Virizion ~ Taste the Rainbow ~

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    Finchinator dissed my Leftovers Politoed when it has Water Absorb :[

    I know the ORAS Metagame has only started to develop, however I would like to support Mega Salamence to be a potential suspect in the ORAS OU tier. With it's mega evolution, not only did it gain massive boosts to all of its stats, especially a 50 base buff in defense, but MegaMence also now has 120 Base Speed, allowing it to outspeed and KO offensive threats such as non-Scarf Latios, Gengar, Garchomp, Terrakion, as well as newly assigned Megas such as Gallade before it can strike back with an Ice Punch. In addition, it also gains a new ability in Aerialate, allowing it to finally access that powerful Flying-type STAB option it always wanted to in the past. With a boost to all of its stats apart from its HP (which no Mega Evolution has so far anyway), MegaMence can now become a massive offensive threat no matter what the situation is, and works really well as a fast sweeper that can clean-up late game, thanks to access to the boosting move Dragon Dance, as well as high-power moves such as Outrage, Earthquake, and Return/Double-Edge.

    It's no slouch defensively either however, as MegaMence also possesses 95 / 130 / 90 defenses with access to Intimidate before Mega-Evolving, making it really threaten those hard-hitting physical attackers such as Landorus-Therian and Conkeldurr. This altogether is why I think Mega Salamence is too much for the OU tier.

    Another idea eventually could be giving Mega Slowbro a potential suspect as well. Thanks to having Regenerator before evolving, Slowbro can perform as a viable pivot before mega-evolving, however when it does mega evolve, its fantastic base 180 Defense backed up with a respectable 95 base HP allows MSlowbro to be used as a Bulky Offensive Presence by setting-up Calm Minds and going from there. In addition, MSlowbro's typing isn't the worst either as thanks to its Water typing, Slowbro has room to take numerous hits within the tier, while it's Psychic typing allows it to resist the oh-so-powerful Fighting-type, despite leaving it weak to Pursuit and U-Turn in return.

    It's not even that it can't recover either - this new Mega has a very reliable recovery in Slack Off, which is great especially when running a CM set as it allows more room for using its STAB offensive moves, particularly Scald and Psychic/Psychock. It can perform quite well in Trick Room, due to it's really high Special Attack and absurd Speed Stats, and a neat movepool overall with choices such as Scald, Psychic, Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Ice Beam, Slack Off, and Trick Room itself, allowing it to be used under different circumstances.

    I know this is really early yet, however I would really like to briefly cast my opinions of these 2 specific Mega Pokemon through the testing that I have done so far - I'd love to see what everybody else thinks, though!
     
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  3. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    M. Slowbro I could eventually get behind, although I'd have to see it work for a while first.

    Although the one I'm really kinda scared for is MegaGross. I don't think there are any OU pokemon in the history in the game that have such a combination of power, speed, and bulk. Tough claws makes it's stabs (i
     
  4. snaga

    snaga .

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    Clearly mega salamence is the best mega in the ORAS OU meta. the sub dd set sets up on so much of the meta game and 2hkos everything at +1 that isn't a resist (besides avalugg lol). I can count countless amount of times that I have a match won and my opp just sets up a dd and wins. Mega Salamence is more over centralizing than both mawile and aegislash combined. Banning mence will settle down the ORAS OU meta (until people realize how good mega slowbro is). The only way to deal with mence is to have mamo/weavile on your team, unaware clef (cant switch in). And if mence gets behind a sub before these mons are sent in they just die, like everything else. The only true check I found to the sub dd set is roar zapdos
    +1 252 Atk Aerilate Salamence Return vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Zapdos: 144-169 (37.5 - 44%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    but this is eventually worn down. In the end Mega Salamence needs to go.
     
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  5. DarkDiglett

    DarkDiglett free pridy

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    Is there a 100% accurate list of every single change in:

    -Level up / egg moves for every pokemon
    -Which pokemon learn which tutor move
    -Possible BST changes
    -Possible type changes
    -Game mechanic changes
    -New items / item changes
    -Every new Mega Evolution
     
  6. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    Mega Salamence is now banned from ORAS OU (thank @Hikari for doing it quickly). This thread should still be used to discuss potential suspects in ORAS OU that lacks Mega Salamence as it's now banned.

    Also, there is not a full list that I can come up with currently, @DarkDiglett, but there may be one in the future.
     
  7. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Once the metagame settles down, it might be worth it to look at Greninja imo. Now it has Gunk Shot (seriously, wtf were you thinking GameFreak) it has so many viable options it can run that it can litteraly sweep half a team before you find out what its moveset is. Also, it is still faster than all the new base 110s, so it's still extremely hard to RK without priority. Not to mention that a physical set with Water Shuriken is now somewhat viable.
     
  8. Linkin Karp

    Linkin Karp Reformed™

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    There's still a difference between good and broken that most people on this sim don't seem to understand. Of course, Greninja MIGHT sweep something before its set is revealed, but does that make it broken? No. Something that dies to every attack from every scarfer (and prio attacker) in the tier might still be viable, but not ban-worthy.

    Talking about ban frenzy, it's time to unban Aegislash.
     
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  9. DarkDiglett

    DarkDiglett free pridy

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    @Finchinator so unreleased mons are getting suspected and banned because they might be broken in an unreleased meta where not all changed are confirmed?

    Like M Mence will prob be broken, yea , but you don't 100% know that until the game is released and you know whats changed. Why not wait until the actual game is out before you go suspecting and banning things?
     
  10. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Agreeing with DarkDiglett, some mons need to be unbanned and retested. Aegi comes to mind, but I feel that Blaziken might also be worth retesting. (Mega) Slowbro is quite popular and I can see Mega Altaria ending up in OU as well. Both do a great job at countering it, so it might be worth to look at Blaziken again.

    As for Ninja; we'll see how the metagames evolves, but the list of mons that can switch in to all/most sets is extremely small at the moment.
     
  11. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    I'm not in charge of the tiering policy that permits us to ban things at this point, so I cannot give you much of an answer here. Regardless, I don't think anything that is controversial or not blatantly broken will be dealt with until after the official release, but this is a good place to start discussion and point out things that are blatantly broken. As for retesting pokemon, I wouldn't discuss anything of that nature quite yet, but maybe later on, once things are released.
     
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  12. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak Pimp Hand Strong Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Is it worth retesting Aegis and Genesect?

    I chose those two specifically as the others are bans that should stand, or are bans that literally just happened.

    Please note I haven't battled in ORAS yet, just providing some food for thought.
     
  13. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Aegislash is a ban that literally just happened more recently any other ban. I think that of all the retests we may consider, Aegislash is one that we should not take lightly just because it's a later ban and one that was less cut-and-dry than others. While many pokemon like Mega Lucario and Mega Mawile were simply banned for being overpowering, one of the effects of Aegislash's presence in the meta is a huge meta reshuffle that practically obsoletes a large number of offensive and defensive threats - the meta looks very different without its presence. The amount of focus one has to put on "checking" Aegislash in an Aegislash meta IMO is a lot more of a negative effect on the meta than any other pokemon we've banned in OU to date. Certainly I don't think we should retest it now and I want to warn people in general against retesting it over pokemon that were simply too powerful like Blaziken, Lucario, Mawile, Genesect (sorta), etc.
     
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  14. Xellos

    Xellos New Member

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    Is there any specific reason why we shouldn't look into Reshiram? He doesn't seem that broken anymore(especially compared to stuff like M-Metagross).
     
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  15. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    Let's all focus on the pokemon that are problematic in the current metagame. Once ORAS OU reaches a somewhat balanced state, then we can discuss potential retests. I'm not going to rule anything out in this regard yet, but I highly doubt that Reshiram will be retested, @Xellos, unless you can provide more specific evidence as to why it would be worth looking at.
     
  16. Xellos

    Xellos New Member

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    It doesn't have any set up moves like CM, NP or DD, does not have priority and its speed is average at best. Its checks are almost everywhere and being able to adapt your moveset to get past them is nothing special anymore. M-Gross on the other hand might not have reliable recovery but at least it has access to priority as well as a build in LO without recoil and a great base speed of 110 and yet no one thinks of him as outright broken(at least not to the point where it would justify a quick ban).

    Of course Fire/Dragon stab is amazing there is no denying that and i can't really tell for sure whether or not it would be too much for the Meta but that's exactly the reason i'd like to see a suspect for it. Taking a look at some of the new Megas i just can't see how Reshiram is supposed to be that much better, sure they have their own flaws but so does Reshiram.
     
  17. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Reshiram doesn't take up your mega slot though, so you could run CharY + Reshiram (Specs Sun-boosted Blue Flare anyone?) for example, while you can't run Mega Metagross + Mega Altaria.
     
  18. NidoTheKing

    NidoTheKing Father of the Year 2014!

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    Wow. We did something before Showdown. That's new.


    To be fair, MegaMence was the only obviously-broken Pokemon in ORAS. I could list some that should be discussed, but I can't think of obvious things to kill:
    My list for discussion and not downright ban along with other Pokemon that have been mentioned is:

    • Mega Slowbro: Anyone who hates Suicune will smash a computer screen when seeing this. It can boost itself to crazy levels, heal, and can't be hit by critical hits (that sounds meh, but it means you can't rely on luck to kill it). Toxic is the obvious answer to remove it, but there exists CroBro, ResTalk + CM + Scald Mega Slowbro that is just as if not more infuriating than CroCune. There are ways around it, of course, but a lot of them are less practical than they should be (like Perish Song and forcing a Water immunity on a team). There is also the option of outstalling it, but as a person who has done this, I will say that you never want to have to deal with that.
    • Mega Diancie: I'm just flabbergasted at the thing's stats and movepool. Very high attacking stats, great defenses (with a meh defensive typing and 50 Hp, but still decent), and 110 Speed and Magic Bounce with a super movepool just doesn't seem fair at all. It has very good STABs and fantastic coverage to 2HKO/OHKO almost anything, especially Stealth Rock up (which it can set up itself as well). It's extremely weak to Scizor, but Genesect was weak to Heatran and it's banned. Maybe it isn't broken and I'm overreacting, but I don't think it should go completely unscathed.
    • Greninja: Look, Greninja is strong, it can nab easy kills now, and it's really hard to revenge kill with its speed and Protean shenanigans, but it isn't reliable. Hydro Pump isn't reliable, Gunk Shot is far from reliable, and it needs Life Orb to work well so it will continuously be taking damage (and is frail already). Greninja isn't a sweeper because it can't OHKO everything in sight with one turn; it's a revenge killer, one who focuses on weakened targets that have low enough health to ensure a KO. It's a very potent revenge killer, but I don't think it's so good that it has to be banned. Oh, and I tried Water Shuriken on the mixed set; still sucks.
    • DROPPING POKEMON (i.e: Aegislash, Genesect, Reshiram(?)): No. The metagame just started and we don't know if it's stable or not. Adding Pokemon that were deemed broken before to a metagame which we currently have no idea how it works is not only guessing to see if it will work, but over 50% of the time will backfire. Furthermore, in response to Xellos and Reshiram, just because a tier has introduced new Pokemon that are as powerful as Pokemon that were banned does NOT entirely mean that the banned Pokemon is not as powerful. To put it simply, we don't know how the metagame will react yet and adding more powerhouses will not make it any better. The first step is to get rid of the broken things THEN, if there are any, add back Pokemon that are considered fine now. This is the hype stage of ORAS and it has to die down before we can make rash judgements.
    tl;dr, nothing is obvious to ban yet and dropping Pokemon is not healthy for the metagame this early in stage.
     
  19. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    If you really have to unban Reshiram (lol) then just unban Kyurem-White, which doesnt have a Fire STAB and its just the special counterpart of KyuB (tho Turboblaze is really cool cuz heatran doesnt wall)
    (hint: don't unban them)

    I have to agree with NidoTheKing, there's nothing more to quickban now

    suspect things to keep an eye on:
    MegaMetagross: its stats are amazing, 110 speed allows it to be a nightmare for most common stuff used to kill it bar things like greninja, mega manectric, scarf mons etc
    it still has counters (Skarmory? Slowbro? Mew?) so I think we just have to see what happens there
    Greninja: the first time I've heard someone theorizing Greninja's ban I really laughed. Now I am seriously thinking it should be a good thing. Its movepool is way too H U G E and ORAS gave it some new toys that let it kill some of its threats (Azumarill Clefable w/Gunk Shot). We have to wait if the meta developes new ways to threaten it
    MegaDiance: idk, its stats are way too powerful but it has a really poor movepool. Diamond Storm is kinda cool but not enough to be a decent mixed wallbreaker. It should be a good CalmMinder w/MoonBlast+EarthPower+HPCoverage (no recoveries tho ]: ), thx also to MBounce that makes it invulnerable to status and phazing. Priorities are still a problem (hi scizor), also ExcadrillRush is. We'll see.

    @MegaSlowbro: it seems an unbreakable wall at glance but it's not that different from CroCune, just a better version. Psychic typing gives it some pro and con (comparing with Cune) so nothing so incredible
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2014
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  20. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    @Reshiram argument.
    While it may be true that some pokemon that are currently OU are as problematic, or even more so, than Reshiram would (potentially) be in OU, that doesn't mean we should retest the uber fire dragon. Instead, we should rid the metagame of the pokemon that are this broken in hope of achieving a balanced ORAS OU metagame in the future.

    So, instead of coming up with ideas to retest pokemon like Reshiram (or retest anything, going back to previous posts), let's all discuss the pokemon that are currently the most problematic in ORAS OU like @NidoTheKing and @Cameltoed are doing.

    Some noteworthy pokemon right now are: Mega Metagross, Mega Slowbro, Greninja, and possibly Mega Latios/as.
     
  21. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Mega Latios seems like the usual "mega that doesnt worth the slot". I don't mean it's weak cuz it isn't but its firepower is weaker than Orb Latios, so it seems more useful than its normal form just in less common sets:
    -Bulky Defog (better defensive stats, worse firepower)
    -Calm Minder (bulkier)
    -DragonDancer (LOL)
    I don't think it's broken neither toxic for the metagame, I don't see it at all js.

    Mega Latias is cooler cuz it can do the same roles I mentioned above (bar DDancer but who cares at that lolset) but better than Latios. Also latwins got stored power so a CM+StoredPower is an option. I don't see enough games to state something as "suspect / dont suspect" but as now I don't think both deserve a suspect
     
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  22. GerMoj

    GerMoj Victory Is Ours Clan Leader

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    ¡Hi everyone! I've been playing on the ORAS ladder this week and there are just a few things I'll like to make some notice:

    MegaMetagross: There's plenty to tell about this mon. First of all, it gets a speed boost he craved for, its speed is at 110, meaning it outspeeds most of the tier and with Tough Claws it is pretty hard to counter. Metagross' bulk is also real nice as it can't just be revenge killed that easily. Even though it gets some semi-reliable counters (like Counter Skarmory) with the propper support it can get rid of that. Lets see the usage statistics: http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/ORAS OU/index.html Magnezone just came up to spot 15 because paired with MetaGross they facilitate an easy sweep by removing or weaking Gross' counters. Same does for Beedrill, but Beedrill practically dies with almost any form of priority so that thing can't be considered broken.

    Greninja: Just as @Cameltoed said, first time hearing a "Ban Greninja" makes you laugh. You stop laughing when Greninja cleans up your team easily. It is true that Greninja isn't exactly a "sweeper" just as DDNite, Pinsir, T-tar or anything else, but it is frightening the ability it has to clean up most teams lacking and aproppiate counter. Yes Chansey can stand against it, but seeing the statistics again, Gothitelle is climbing rapidly as a Greninja + Gothitelle core can break through that counter. Also wearing down Chansey is not as hard as it is tought. Offensive pressure can't let you remove your hazards? A random mon struck Chansey with a Knock Off? Taunt? Volt-Turn? Right, Protect can't help you evade a 2HKO with no leftiees Alternate counters are Porygon2 and Empoleon, both of which aren't that great in the OU enviroment and the Emperor Penguin stills gets nailed by a very common Magnezone. Even Greninja can take 1 on 1 on some of the "broken" things some people are saying

    Slowbro: Yeah, it is troublesome, but it is just as Crocune: You need to kill it quickly our outstall its PP. Killing it quickly is hard if it is in a stall team and stalling it's PP its tricky though. Greninja can threaten it as Thundy. Choice [email protected] can cripple it's teammates and possibly dent bro. What it makes stupidly great is sheel armor, when it gets to +2 or +3 (not that difficult) its very hard to take down due to being protected by Critical Hits. Water Absorb Vaporeon can handle CroBro, but not Psyshock variants. Probably in the future it will be actually broken

    Diancie: Yeah, Diencia right now is terrifying. After a CM boost it is a nuke. It is revenge killed easily by Scizor and BP Metagross, Greninja also can weaken it enough for something to RK, I think. The real threat is that Diancie can overcentralize the meta in the long run, and even when Ferrothorn, Scizor, Heatran and Metagross are pretty common right now, Diancie has the ability to wear the down little by little with Earth Power or HP Fire.

    Some people say about Mega-Latias with Stored Power, but she practically gets hard walled by every Dark type (which aren't that rare) and make Sableye a real threat and the standard defog set is actually just a little bit bulkier, nothing special. Mega-Latios isn't that powerful, sure he gets a nice boost in Sp Atk, but he can't KO new things with that bost that LO and Specs did. Because he doesn't gets any Speed boost his revenge killing capacities are outclassed by the scarf version. So the Eon Twins aren't really a threat right now.

    So right now I'm actually saying: Suspect Metagross, Suspect Greninja and just keep an eye on Bro and Diancie
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2014
  23. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Chansey and Empoleon both get 2HKOd by Low Kick, so they don't counter Ninja. Low Kick is a very viable option, as it gets rid of everything that you would normally use Hydro Pump for (Ttar, Heatran) but with 100% accuracy. It also 2HKOs Ferro, which is definitely nice, because you can drop HP Fire.
     
  24. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    do not suspect metagross and greninja k thanks bye, thats a stupid suspect. One 110 isn't fast this metagme it just simply gets out sped and dies the #1 usage of oras checks mega metagross extremly well scarf landuros-t while i think the set sucks it's still #1. Greninja lacks power and tbh is walled easy by most somewhat bulky pokemon if u don't run things that can take a greninja hit ur bad... it doesn't truly hit that amazingly hard..... chansey, conk, sp def ferro(high usage), wall it quiet well and it suffes from 4mss i do understand a few more ofthen are running hp fire but srs people it's offense stats ain't that amazing. Another check fo metagross is greninja so removing it would make your metagross which u fear for stupid reasons more dangerous. manetric checks both of these mons quiet well as does scaf landuros sowbro hardwalls metagross. Greninja is also out paced alot more this metagame and can't do much to a max sp def mega sableye is actually ok usage

    tl;dr don't panic ban 2 pokemon who don't frankly dersevre a ban just learn to deal with them. They both suffer to much from 4mss and your just gonan argue they have access to there entire movepools and can run every single one of there moves reguardless of there investment. This is coming from the current 5th on ladder so if you want to bitch saying i haven't done much oras i have.

    secondly due to more greninja and metagross running around aswell as m-lopunny we might try to unban aegislash.

    also oh so penguin low kick is not a viable option for greninja as it require heavily investment
    252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (60 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO and 1.2% chance to ko without rocks is hardly a 2 ko and they don't run max attack get your facts right before posting


    tbh imo the best mega this metagame is lopunny because of it's huge speed threat i finding it easy to sweep team teams with it late game

    FINCH EDIT (merging Kland's double post):
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 15, 2014
  25. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    110 base speed isn't as good as it used to be, but it certainly isn't bad. Also, you fail to note any counters, just loose checks like scarf lando-t, which doesn't really help your argument here.

    Alright, I will stop you here. Greninja isn't about power; greninja is about abusing protean with the stellar movepool it has. It gains STAB on everything, so moves like Gunk Shot will render otherwise problematic pokemon like Clefable incapable of checking Greninja and the same goes for other coverage moves. So, saying that "stats ain't that amazing" is borderline irrelevant here and disregarding the benefits given by protean makes your whole argument very weak.

    The think about metagross being more dangerous in a greninjaless metagame is pure theorymon and greninja doesn't check anything, yeta alone mega metagross, as it's the definition of a glass cannon. Manectric cannot switch into either pokemon and has to mega to outpace either (assuming metagross already mega'd), so you're off base here, too.

    I don't care if you're 5th or 50005th; if you cannot list actual counters and checks while just slapping together various faulty supportive points to prove your argument, then your post doesn't have much substance to it, unfortunately. I advise you to look into the situation again and either argue your stance properly, refrain from arguing, or argue your new point of view (properly).

    If you read the thread prior to posting, you'd know that we aren't planning to retest anything (even Aegislash) anytime in the near future. Also, Low Kick is viable as it hits Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn, Empoleon, Chansey/Blissey (keep in mind that it's hard to keep them at 100% when they're sponging so many hits, vulnerable to hazards, and forced out by many physical threats), Tyranitar, etc.

    ps: keep in mind that i don't even think mega meta is broken (well, i haven't tested it much yet and don't have too informed an opinion on it, unlike most other pokemon in the metagame), so i can easily be persuaded, but this just isn't adding up well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2014
  26. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    o sorry u want counters lets see skarmory..thunderpunch has near to 0 usage so please come at me with a stupid arguement that it carries thunder punch i dare u, you can double check this fact here:http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/ORAS OU/376.html a whole 1-3% of sets use thunder punch wow amazing chance heck grass knot on metagross is jus tas common and thats for sure not viable.


    [QUOTE="Alright, I will stop you here. Greninja isn't about power; greninja is about abusing protean with the stellar movepool it has. It gains STAB on everything, so moves like Gunk Shot will render otherwise problematic pokemon like Clefable incapable of checking Greninja and the same goes for other coverage moves. So, saying that "stats ain't that amazing" is borderline irrelevant here and disregarding the benefits given by protean makes your whole argument very weak."[/QUOTE]

    [QUOTE="even with stab on everything it's weak was my point mega venu sp def walls it, yes 5% of sets run extransonery but like metagross it suffers from 4mss which is a thing they can't run every move so stop threating it like they can and venu is often ran with a fairy and 0 greninja sets run both so it's walled by either or."[/QUOTE]


    [QUOTE="The think about metagross being more dangerous in a greninjaless metagame is pure theorymon and greninja doesn't check anything, yeta alone mega metagross, as it's the definition of a glass cannon. Manectric cannot switch into either pokemon and has to mega to outpace either (assuming metagross already mega'd), so you're off base here, too."[/QUOTE]

    greninja out speed all non agillity gross sets and revnged it aka stopign the sweep since grenija is quiet popular atm for some reason... it blocks metagross sweepign quiet well, aswell as the number 1 being scarf landuros,


    [QUOTE="I don't care if you're 5th or 50005th; if you cannot list actual counters and checks while just slapping together various faulty supportive points to prove your argument, then your post doesn't have much substance to it, unfortunately. I advise you to look into the situation again and either argue your stance properly, refrain from arguing, or argue your new point of view (properly)."[/QUOTE]

    if u can't read i listed checks to greninja....i'll repeat them chansey, ferro(given hp fire is possible but rare and it already suffers 4mss) low kick does too much damage back to greninja, also i've stated aboth and 5th on ladder means i know what i'm talking about unlike you who's just running off theorymon.

    If you read the thread prior to posting, you'd know that we aren't planning to retest anything (even Aegislash) anytime in the near future. Also, Low Kick is viable as it hits Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn, Empoleon, Chansey/Blissey (keep in mind that it's hard to keep them at 100% when they're sponging so many hits, vulnerable to hazards, and forced out by many physical threats), Tyranitar, etc.[/QUOTE]

    low kick still doesn't 2 hit chansey ike he claimed so chansey is still a wall. Your arguemtn is also stupid if someone lowers everything then sweeps with something faster isn't that just being the better player, i mean if your team loses because you have max hazards out and nothing faster then a common pokemon with your entire team weakned isn't that asking to lose. Your argument is it cleans when there is nothing left to stop it every mon can do that


    finch instead of ripping n my post can u atleast provide some facts, please and ty your just trying to detrail this thread with non-fact based assumptions. Becuase al lyou've said is that it's capale of running everything where 1% of greninja's use low kick wow 1%. Next time instead of just saying alot of crap back your stuff up with facts and useages.


    feel free to http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/ORAS OU/658.html read about the usages before supporting unvible sets. Remeber there are more metagross running around with grass knot then there are greninja's using low kick


    anyones who has played enough oras would relieze metagross is a pure theory mon and is lack laster in it's pergormance and greninja while is a good mon it can be delt with, but ok finch keep posting your theory mon of each pokemon having 1000 move slots, i mean i'm not really even thinking hard or coming up with new counters there already in place.

    just for finch i'll dot point them to make them easy

    metagross
    counters:
    skarm
    ferro:(high usage) hammer punch has 0 usage
    m-slowbro
    checks:
    scarf landuros(number 1 usage)
    manetric mega
    greninja offensive sweep blocker(high usage)
    cune
    ballon tran 1 time check/force switchs(high usage)
    scarf tran(high usage)
    m-swampert


    greninja
    counters
    fairy/m-venu core very common stall core
    chansey
    water absorb vaperion extremly low usage but can still counter
    m-dos defsenvie while nearly has 0 usage it still is viable and counters greninja


    checks:
    ferro
    m-venu
    ass-vest conk
    max sp def m-scizor
    sp-def kyu-b
    goodra
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2014
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  27. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    [QUOTE="even with stab on everything it's weak was my point mega venu sp def walls it, yes 5% of sets run extransonery but like metagross it suffers from 4mss which is a thing they can't run every move so stop threating it like they can and venu is often ran with a fairy and 0 greninja sets run both so it's walled by either or."[/QUOTE]


    [QUOTE="The think about metagross being more dangerous in a greninjaless metagame is pure theorymon and greninja doesn't check anything, yeta alone mega metagross, as it's the definition of a glass cannon. Manectric cannot switch into either pokemon and has to mega to outpace either (assuming metagross already mega'd), so you're off base here, too."[/QUOTE]

    greninja out speed all non agillity gross sets and revnged it aka stopign the sweep since grenija is quiet popular atm for some reason... it blocks metagross sweepign quiet well, aswell as the number 1 being scarf landuros,


    [QUOTE="I don't care if you're 5th or 50005th; if you cannot list actual counters and checks while just slapping together various faulty supportive points to prove your argument, then your post doesn't have much substance to it, unfortunately. I advise you to look into the situation again and either argue your stance properly, refrain from arguing, or argue your new point of view (properly)."[/QUOTE]

    if u can't read i listed checks to greninja....i'll repeat them chansey, ferro(given hp fire is possible but rare and it already suffers 4mss) low kick does too much damage back to greninja, also i've stated aboth and 5th on ladder means i know what i'm talking about unlike you who's just running off theorymon.

    If you read the thread prior to posting, you'd know that we aren't planning to retest anything (even Aegislash) anytime in the near future. Also, Low Kick is viable as it hits Kyurem-B, Ferrothorn, Empoleon, Chansey/Blissey (keep in mind that it's hard to keep them at 100% when they're sponging so many hits, vulnerable to hazards, and forced out by many physical threats), Tyranitar, etc.[/QUOTE]

    low kick still doesn't 2 hit chansey ike he claimed so chansey is still a wall. Your arguemtn is also stupid if someone lowers everything then sweeps with something faster isn't that just being the better player, i mean if your team loses because you have max hazards out and nothing faster then a common pokemon with your entire team weakned isn't that asking to lose. Your argument is it cleans when there is nothing left to stop it every mon can do that


    finch instead of ripping n my post can u atleast provide some facts, please and ty your just trying to detrail this thread with non-fact based assumptions. Becuase al lyou've said is that it's capale of running everything where 1% of greninja's use low kick wow 1%. Next time instead of just saying alot of crap back your stuff up with facts and useages.


    feel free to http://stats.pokemon-online.eu/ORAS OU/658.html read about the usages before supporting unvible sets. Remeber there are more metagross running around with grass knot then there are greninja's using low kick


    anyones who has played enough oras would relieze metagross is a pure theory mon and is lack laster in it's pergormance and greninja while is a good mon it can be delt with, but ok finch keep posting your theory mon of each pokemon having 1000 move slots, i mean i'm not really even thinking hard or coming up with new counters there already in place.

    just for finch i'll dot point them to make them easy

    metagross
    counters:
    skarm
    ferro:(high usage) hammer punch has 0 usage
    m-slowbro
    checks:
    scarf landuros(number 1 usage)
    manetric mega
    greninja offensive sweep blocker(high usage)
    cune
    ballon tran 1 time check/force switchs(high usage)
    scarf tran(high usage)
    m-swampert


    greninja
    counters
    fairy/m-venu core very common stall core
    chansey
    water absorb vaperion extremly low usage but can still counter
    m-dos defsenvie while nearly has 0 usage it still is viable and counters greninja


    checks:
    ferro
    m-venu
    ass-vest conk
    max sp def m-scizor
    sp-def kyu-b
    goodra[/QUOTE]
    Oml Heatran completly wals Genesect pls unban. Oml Gastrodom wals Kyogre pls unban. Oml Lando-T (hi usage!) checks Groudon pls unban.

    ^ That sums up your argument tbh. I'll make a nice wall of text when I get home.
     
  28. Xellos

    Xellos New Member

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    Aren't we forgetting someone?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2014
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  29. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Fairies -> Gunk Shot
    MVenu -> Esensory
    (You can't say "I got the core so it doesn't need to go" cuz there isn't just Greninja in a team to win; also Aegislash would have been walled by a Quagsire+Mandibuzz+Heatran core walling SD/Mixed/SubToxic but that doesn't mean it would have not been banned)
    Chansey -> Uturn / Low Kick (also Spikes n Taunt)
    Vaporeon -> GKnot/HP Grass
    MegaGyarados SDefensive -> lol. Btw GKnot

    Ferro -> Checks everythin but LowKick or HP Fire and then? Dies or gets forced to switch. Good check!
    MVenu -> Kinda a check but ESensory is still too much
    AVConk -> Quite decent check but bad pkmn overall
    SDef MScizor -> Just a good check in entering on Ice Beam, he can't do nothing if entering on HPump (+HP Fire) or HP Fire (dies lol)
    SDef KyuB (maybe u're searchin AV KyuB) -> 40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 52 HP / 0- Def Kyurem-B: 374-445 (92.5 - 110.1%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO -> See Ferrothorn (paradoxicaly Scarf KyuB is a better check uh)
    Goodra -> 40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Goodra: 187-222 (48.8 - 57.9%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO / 216 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 151-179 (39.4 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -> Not that good


    Ok it's all a question of movesets cuz Greninja can't have all those moves once but it seems like Genesect, just faster and less powerful (but it has always STAB). It has a too huge movepool which can virtually 2hko almost every mon in the metagame. It's not "broken" but it's surely an unhealthy presence in the meta. We can wait to see if something changes but I honestly think its ban will be only a benefit for this metagame, so for what I've said above I think it needs to go
     
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  30. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    cameltaod can you please stop theorymoning the sets your talking about have less usage in ou then golurk yes it has thsoe moves no it doesn't run those moves often can we just let the metagame settle, instead of just theory monning hte entire metagame. and why can't u cover a pokemon with a core your saying greninja gets to run both gunk shot and extasnory on eiher or i don't see why i can't counter argue i have mons and it doesn't run both at the same time. If u get to argue perfec siutation i don't see my i can't counter agrue it.

    Greninja can't u turn spam a chansey it dies to hazards+ life orb damage, low kick doesn't 2 hit taunt sets wow really seismic toss lowers u and really omg it doesn't have 1000 moves for the last 1000th time. Otherwise i would say thunder chansey with seren grace 2hkos and has a good chance of pharaing u, chansey gets thunde why can't i argue it will use it vs the taunt set.

    also vaperon is barely 3 hit by greninja: 252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 192 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 164-195 (36.5 - 43.4%) -- 97.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery i'l ladmit m-dos is but stil lyour argueing it runs all moves is unfair it suffers 4mss. As i said low kick as nex to 0 usage in ou if u want to keep argueing i should run checks or low kick i should be running checks for golurk at the same time sicne golurk has more usage, then lock kick grennja. Chnasey is not 2 hit by low kick as i've posted inthe past

    CAN WE STOP THEORYMONING AND REALIZE IT ONLY HAS 4 MOVES AND OUT OF THOSE 4 MOVES IT BASICALLY ALWAYS RUNS WATER DARK SO IT ONLY HAS 2 FILLERS, SO STOP THREATING IT LIKE IT HAS 100000 MOVES SLOTS WHEN IT CLEARLY DOESN'T SOME SETS YOUR ARGUING ARE LESS ABUNDANT THEN A GOLURK FOR GODS SAKE. AND SINCE WHEN CAN'T U ARGUE AROUND A CORE CHECKING SOMETHING A M-VENU AND FAIRY TYPE IS A VERY COMMON CORE AND BLOCKS IT.

    TL;DR ACUTALLY TEST SOMETHING AND LET THE METAGAME SETTLE BEFORE GOING HYPO BAN SOMETHING. This is not a genesect while i didn't think genesect eve ndesvered a ban ggenesect has mutiple sets band rp scarf ect. this only ha the life orb set.

    Mew is more broken on paper then greninja if u want to argue greninja has access to all those moves name me 3 mew checks and ill argue againist them with mew's super movepool.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2014
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  31. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Because everyone expects those moves, I run another set + a lure so the counters get removed. Chansey/Tran are very easy to lure with Mixed Thundurus (which is an amazing partner for Ninja, as it can also para Scarfers). The thing is that even with 2 fillers, it can run so many combinations that is usually sweeps half a team before you find out what checks it. Also, it's impossible to check/counter all sets, and there isn't a single mon that counters all sets.
     
  32. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Kland, Mew can have all moves he wants but he will always have only Psychic Stab and a poor 100 base speed. Find the difference

    Also Smeargle can have a huge movepool but LOL that's not a good argument ._.
     
  33. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    but mew can sd and nasty plot whic hmeans it hits harder the ngreninja and it can run alot of thing sicne were allowing it to run everything mew is far more broken then greninja this is theorymon after all
     
  34. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    Yo

    no more discussing greninja - this is for potential suspects and Greninja is a current suspect - use the proper thread.

    no more discussing mew/Smeargle or comparing them to anything either as they're not getting banned anytime soon and not relevant to the conversation currently.
     
    Oh So Penspin likes this.
  35. Silph Co.

    Silph Co. New Member

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    Silph Co.
    Hello PO forums I am Silph Co. I am on the main server often and I play only the OU tier. I will try to be brief.

    Ban Knock Off. Knock Off is the worst move allowed in our meta-game right now. Not because any one trainer or Pokemon abuses it; Because nearly everyone abuses it. It is overpowered, widespread, unoriginal, and takes no skill to use. It has few reliable counters. It serves no urgent purpose in the meta whatsoever.

    Knock Off is a big middle-finger from Gamefreak to all of us. It's time we fight back. I hope you consider taking a bold step and banning this move. Free up a slot or three in our team movesets. We did this with Swagger and we can surely do it again.
     
  36. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    The thing with Swagger is that it introduces a whole new variable in battle that is out of anyone's control, that just doesn't fit in a competitive environment. Swagger was banned because it was deemed uncompetitive, not because it was "broken".

    On to Knock Off, I just don't see your arguments as being valid.
    Okay, why? In what way is it overpowered?
    Surely not in terms of base power, so I would assume it's the item cancelling effect. I don't think that's overpowered, care to elaborate?

    Why is this bad?

    What. Why does that make it bannable?
    Flamethrower, Thunderbolt, and Ice Beam are just type swaps of each other! How unoriginal, ban it!

    It has 96 base damage to a Pokemon holding an item, and 65 to that Pokemon thereafter. Its special effect also doesn't work against a Pokemon holding a mega stone. I'd say it takes decent skill to use.

    You got me there. It doesn't work on Megas though, so at least it has a lot of checks.

    Name a move that has an urgent purpose in the meta. Also how is this a reason to ban it?

    Umm...

    I wish they'd ban Stealth Rocks, that'd free up at least three moveslots in my teams!

    I don't think you understand why Swagger was banned.



    Knock Off is a very gamechanging move when used right. It's true that a lot of Pokemon depend on it for STAB or coverage, some Pokemon are viable solely because of Knock Off's Gen 6 change. But again. why does it need to be banned?
     
  37. Silph Co.

    Silph Co. New Member

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    Dear Wander,

    First of all I want you to keep in mind how many dominant Pokemon at the top of OU learn Knock Off: Azumarill, Bisharp, Clefable, Conkeldurr, Ferrothorn, Gengar, Gliscor, Heracross, Landorus, Landorus-T, Mandibuzz, Mew, Pinsir, Scizor, Thundurus, Venusaur. And of course, everything below that learns it including Sableye, Weavile and Mandibuzz...

    -Overpowered is Dark-type max 130 power Knock Off with item-removing ability on a switch-in, in an OU without Giratina/Arceus and Lucarionite/Mawilite. Are you telling me I have to run without an item in OU? Is that the kind of meta-game you wish to put forward? Doesn't exactly sound like a breeding ground for diversity when it comes to species-useage, but maybe diversity isn't a priority for you.

    Oh, don't forget Dark-type's benefits as an attacking-type, either. K.O. hits everybody. (Get it?)

    -You asked me a question and later answered it yourself: Stealth Rock serves an urgent purpose in OU. I am NOT discussing the banning of Stealth Rock in OU (you are).

    -Yeah I get why we banned Swagger, because nobody likes getting confused and losing half their HP. Why bother with physical attackers when they’re all just going to get confused and faint? Well, why bother giving your Pokemon an item if it’s just going to get knocked-off at extra damage? The situations seem fairly analogous to me.

    -How many Mega Pokemon in OU will reliably wall the STAB 97.5 power K.O. thru ought a whole game? How many Mega Pokemon are you planning on running anyway?

    -I estimate there are about as many Pokemon allowed in OU that can wall a typically-powered K.O. user without other support for a whole game as there are Pokemon that can wall a Swagger-user. The main difference between these two groups is that those that wall K.O. are at the top of OU while most of those that wall Swagger are barely even playable in the tier. Yes, a Knock Off ban is comparable to the Swagger ban. After all we could have just given all our Pokemon Lum Berries to deal with Swagger, oh wait… Knock Off would screw that up too, wouldn’t it?

    -You challenge me to prove to you how Knock-Off is unoriginal. I challenge you to prove to me how it is original. How many powerful Dark-type moves are there already? Its not the only move that can remove an opponent’s item. Its not the only attacking move that can remove an opponent’s item. It is not the only Dark-type attacking move that can remove an opponent’s item. The only way in which it is truly original is that out of all these removal moves it is the only one that is noticeably overpowered, as I just explained.

    By the way, your comparison to Ice Beam/TBolt/Flamethrower has no relevance to this conversation. I'm assuming you're trying to test my knowledge or throw me off with these random comparisons to completely different attacks.

    -There was one thing you called me on which you were quite right about. Based on the facts of the attack and of the meta-game itself we can determine that K.O. does indeed have one urgent purpose for being in OU: to severely bottle-nose species-useage in the tier. When you really think about it the prevalence of the attack is just a reason to run Mega Tyranitar, Sableye, Terrakion, Mega Gyrados, and double reason to run Bisharp, Gliscor, Mega Scizor, Conkeldurr, Azumarill, Mandibuzz, Mega Pinsir, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, and Mega Heracross, as well as many other overplayed standards based on typing. So, yes Wander, K.O. actually is a focused move in terms of meta-usefulness. It helps the overplayed characters/strategies stay overplayed.

    Like I said before, maybe you don’t care about that. I do. Plenty of other people like playing OU and being challenged by fresh, creative movesets from lesser-used Pokemon. Name me some lesser-used Pokemon that K.O. actually helps bring into credibility. Crawdaunt? Ok.

    If you review you’ll see the only comment/question of yours I did not directly address was whether or not K.O. takes any great skill to use.

    To that I say, Knock Off is for knock-offs. Ban it.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
  38. Wander

    Wander Shitty Wizard

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    So a lot of popular Pokemon learn Knock Off, while also a lot of lesser used Pokemon learn Knock Off? Cool, I don't see why that's a reason for Knock Off being OP. If you think Knock Off alone is what is making these Pokemon top tier then you're dead wrong. None of the Pokemon you listed are chosen on a team solely for its ability to use Knock Off (hell some of them don't even use the damn move, Gengar? Really?). Some of them like Bisharp, Mandibuzz, and Weavile probably wouldn't be OU viable without Knock Off, that's because Knock Off gives them utility they otherwise wouldn't have, this actually helps species diversity.

    It has 97 base damage used on a Pokemon holding an item, all subsequent hits will operate with 65 base power. I'm telling you if you get hit by Knock Off then yes, your Pokemon loses its item, are there ways around that? Yes.

    Dark-types get STAB from Knock Off? Cool, it has the same advantages as every other type ever.

    Stealth Rocks does not serve an urgent purpose in the metagame, no move does. I am not discussing the banning of SR in OU, I used it as a comparison.

    Knock Off only has 65 base damage against a Pokemon holding an item it can't knock off. So the answer is a lot, and it's not that you have to repeatedly tank it in the first place lol.

    No single Pokemon can "wall" Swagger unless it has Own Tempo, aside from that it is all a coinflip, uncompetitive hence why it's banned. I encourage you to read the Swagger suspect thread because you obviously don't have a single clue as to why Swagger was banned at all, it in no way shares a similarity with Knock Off.

    No other move has the same effect as Knock Off. And I don't care what you say, a move being "unoriginal" is no reason to ban it from OU, so enough about this point.

    Me mentioning Flamethrower/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam was to show you that suggesting to ban a move because it is "unoriginal" is fucking stupid. I don't need or want to test your knowledge, you're doing that for me.

    Those Pokemon are not "overplayed" because they can use Knock Off, they're "overplayed" because they're actually stand out Pokemon that have traits that make them legitimately better than other Pokemon! Banning Knock Off will not change this, the more you know!

    Mandibuzz, Bisharp, Weavile, Drapion, Crawdaunt, Shiftry, Absol, Toxicroak, and any other less popular mon who didn't have a decent Dark/utility move before Gen VI.



    Edit: It's late, I'm on mobile, the quote tags didn't work, and I unintentionally sound condescending as fuck but I hope people get my point.
     
  39. Silph Co.

    Silph Co. New Member

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    Crawdaunt and Shiftry, Drapion. Ok there's a solid three. The others you mentioned would all still be viable enough in OU. It would not make them "OU" but they would be useable. This is an important distinction to make. I'm not trying make a bunch of Pokemon instantly "become OU" (If I wanted to do that I would probably suggest that Gamefreak create a Normal-type attack version of Knock Off). I simply want to see viability within the tier opened up to lesser-used species.

    No, Stealth Rock checks Charizard X/Y, Talonflame, and Volcarona, Pokemon that were designed or redesigned with Stealth Rock in mind to have major benefits for a trainer's willingness to use their particular typing. I have already conceded that you were correct to challenge my previous assertion that K.O. has "no urgent purpose" for being in the OU meta; Every move has a purpose for being in the meta. Knock Off's SOLE identifiable purpose is to bottle-neck species-usage in the tier. You can't refute that point because it's just true.

    So again it really comes down to whether you care or not. Do you care about opening up the tier for lesser-used Pokemon? Do you care about opening up move-slots on the already viable Pokemon? It sounds to me like you don't. If Knock Off ends up not being banned that really says only one thing about the Pokemon Online community: That you do not care about increasing the diversity in the OU tier, that you would rather have 40-50 tired characters to chose from and mix/match in the same old combinations(as new ones are crapped out by the game-designers, of course) then actually have a meta-game where lesser-used characters and teams are a significant underdog threat to their OP counterparts.

    If you're going to sound condescending(which personally I don't think you do), may as well make it intentional.

    Like I said at the very beginning of this whole conversation, I enjoy playing OU with a OU team that only has 2 OU Pokemon. If you're saying I have to change the whole composition of my team to fix a highly generic tier standard, I simply refuse. I see that as lame gaming. If you don't think so, you need to remove the blinders from your eyes. Pokemon has how many characters now, 700? And we are passively bottle-necking the tier down to about 1/20th of that, by allowing this blatantly contrived move to continue to eat up meta-space. I think from an outsider perspective that is just ridiculous and it says a lot about where all our priorities are currently at, having this ability to shape our own meta-game within this battle simulator.

    To me yes it also reflects very badly on Gamefreak for increasing the move quite intentionally simply to mold their (our?) tier. That's something I want everyone to know that I comprehend here: Gamefreak knew exactly what they were doing when they did this, and they know exactly what is going on here, on these battle servers, too (obviously someone gave PO permission to use Pokemon).

    I fully realize what I am requesting when I say ban Knock Off. I'm saying open up the damn tier already. I am an impatient guy. Perhaps now is not the best time for this, so early in the ORAS season, but you know what? I have suspected Knock Off for you, so there you go. You'll ban it eventually. Or you'll keep a closed tier and continue being generic. If that happens I may move to UU, or maybe I'll just stop playing completely.

    Not that I need to though, my team works in OU even with Knock Off ;) what what
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2014
  40. Cirno

    Cirno Romantic

    Joined:
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    PO Trainer Name:
    Alice
    I think you're misunderstanding what a metagame is.

    A metagame is not a collection of good Pokémon: it is a dynamic of threats, checks and counters. Banning Knock Off will still have OU be 40-50 Pokémon - as you say - but it will just change which 40-50 Pokémon are used, and not necessarily diversify it. The banning of Aegislash made Pokémon such as Mega Gardevoir and Mega Pinsir more potent threats, so walls like Mandibuzz weren't as useful and they fell. In the case of Knock Off, you might make Jirachi and Alakazam better, sure. But you're also going to make Weavile, Diggersby and Bisharp worse, along with some utility Pokémon. In the end, we'll just get a change of pace.

    So what if we don't care? We're not bad people or unintelligent or stubborn nay-sayers for not caring, as you seem to want to imply in this post. And who is to say that having a maelstrom of ~120 decent Pokémon will be more enjoyable than a metagame of 40-50 Pokémon with clearly defined purposes and uses? And so what if lesser used Pokémon aren't as prominent? Lower tiers exist to fit the purpose of giving them use. As you seem to want to believe, diversity is not, on its own, a good factor.

    Also, I'd say that 40-50 is pretty diverse given the nature of Pokémon. It only seems not so because there are 719 Pokémon. If it were 40-50 in Gen 1, then this wouldn't be a case of not diverse.

    Anyway, your post is based on the assumption that banning Knock Off will diversify the meta, and that the current meta isn't diverse enough, and that increased diversity is better, and just those alone. You haven't actually looked at how this would actually change it through looking at the dynamic of the current meta and the dynamic of a Knock Off-less meta and compared them to see if it would be better or more diverse. Rather, just throwing in buzz words like "unoriginal" and "no urgent purpose" to say Knock Off is bad and throwing appeal to emotion in the mix. It doesn't make for a good argument.