Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.
sorry meant Shadow tag :)
This will be the one thing that will get me back on PO. I'd given up on the community and hadn't looked back at PO for a couple of months until a couple of weeks earlier where I had returned and played it for a while. I'll speak out more on Mega Sableye after the current issue is resolved. This thing is by far the unhealtiest mon there is in the tier, but more on that later. Haven't bothered logging onto the server for the last three days again. Atm I will sit back and see where the tiering goes and make a move if things indeed move further before Pokemon Z comes out (If Pokemon Z is a thing that is.)
Not to be bashing PO, but I've lost most my interest due to the state of things here. Hopefully things will fire back up with Weavile's involvement and that maybe something to look forward to.
Btw, Funbot probably mistyped Perish song and meant Shadow Tag instead.
While the hazard control and pre mega support it provides is really powerful, I have a hard time finding MEye broken. In my own experience it has a surprising amount of flaws and is often torn between magic bounce and prankster to such an extent that regardless of what you choose to do, there will be threats you expose yourself to.
A huge draw of eye has always been prio wisp. This directly conflicts with early game hazard control in such a way that using MEye forces you to find other checks to physical boosters and all the Hypervoice/Moonblast aimed your way. The heart of it is that Sableye needs a surprising amount of team support for a mon that is supposed to be supporting its team. It almost pigeon holes you into running a slower/bulkier team because of all the dangerous threats that eye lets switch in for free. I don't think Mega Sableye needs a suspect because I don't think it is very good in the tier right now
It IS very good in the tier right now, but not downright broken imo. It's ability to switch into defensive mons is unparalleled and it provides many teams with a ton of support and ways to check certain metagame threats. However, it's horribly slow and has only above-average bulk (50/125/125 might seem good, but 50 HP is really meh), which means it's not too hard to overwhelm with a bit of residual damage. It excels versus defensive mons, but is quite lackuster vs more offensive teams.
What are you taking about? Pretty much any standard team format patches up Mega Eye's weaknesses. And I don't recall voicing it out as broken. It was something more along the lines of 'unhealthy' iirc, unless unhealthy and broken mean the same thing. If there is a mon that should be considered unhealthy in the OU metagame then it is Mega Sableye. This thing is the single reason I refrain from using Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Celebi, Hippowdon, Forretress, Stallbreaker mew, Jirachi, and a shit ton of other spikers, rock setters and stallbreakers that are supposed to be perfectly viablr in OU. Other magic bounce mons are always unstable to an extent and can be eliminated rather easy by most hazard setters and quite a few stallbreakers while thins thing is more than stable and completely cock blocks pretty much every bulky hazard setter and next to all taunt users by merely switching into them.
Besides, I also don't get the notion of 'this thing can be killed by fairies so it isn't unhealthy'. Is there a single mon in play in ORAS that doesn't have a weakness at this point? Or did the zombie I lent that grapefruit spoon to last night, eat out my brains with the very same spoon, due to which I cannot imagine a scenario of a fairy being capable of beating Mega Sableye 1v1 before I choose to post here?
Well duh, MEye has 'one' weakness in fairy typing but does that really keep it from being unhealthy for the reasons I mention above?
Besides, a slower or bulkier team isn't an issue because those are precisely the teams this fits on. There is little reason to run this outside of balance or stall for the same reason you wouldn't run Azelf on a stall team or Chansey on offense. Stall usually always has answers to these dangerous things that switch in that said, and it works much differently from offense.
Lastly, I am tired of having to leave out mons in my builds that MEye disables merely by switching in.
'Restrictiveness', 'overcentralization', 'unhealthiness' and 'brokenness' are all viable criterias for a suspect, and if deemed necessary, a ban. If there is a single mon in the current metagame that the labels 'restrictive' and 'unhealthy' fit on, then it is Mega Sableye.
I hear what your saying. In many cases a matchup between Sebleye and Ferro or Skarm often makes these mons very ineffective. But on the flip side I don't really see a reason why ferro needs to be A+ viable in the meta. The fact is like Sebleye, Ferro is very passive and gets easily ohkoed or beaten 1v1 by so many top usage mons (Heatran, Charrizard, Tflame, SuperpowerScizor, Chomp, Gengar, Clef, Lopunny). I don't think a lack of viability of these defensive hazard setters is due to Sebleye, rather i just think that they are passive or one dimensional. There is a huge opportunity cost of using a mega slot that should be recognized here. For such an important member of a team, I find it very problematic to give free switches in to Clefable, Sylveon, Tflame, PsndGliscor, Heatran, Charizard and most scary of all gardevoir. These are all mons that have all of one or two checks depending on the set. Many of the defensive mons you listed can be paired with these threats to effectively deal with sebleye, regardless of what set its running. Which is exactly the kind of teambuilding pigeon hole I was talking about due to the pressure to check all of these threats. The hazard control is really useful but it struggles to effectively switch in or check mons bc a lack of stats/offensive presence/resistances
If you are saying mEye is too restrictive or unhealthy, you are saying it is broken in this instance.
Well, tbh Ferro plays more of a role at checking mons such as Rotom, and those that it resists. Coming in and setting up SR. Skarm does the same. It comes into a mon that it can withstand, and either defogs or sets up it's own rocks. Most of these mons as I mentioned do withstand a large portion of the metagame that said. Ferro is one of the best checks to Diancie, and arguably to Rotom as well. Physically defensive stallbreaker Mew checks Lopunny and takes even lesser damage from it's attacks than what even Slowbro does, and Jirachi on the other hand is hands down one of the best fairy checks there is in the tier. A lot of these mons have utility and fulfil a specific role on the team and are usually paired up with other mons on the team that cover up their weaknesses, but as of the mons mentioned above. Ferro, Mew, celebi and a few others usually always give the team more than they take though their support is rendered completely useless upon a Sableye switchin. That said using Heatran isn't the best of answers to a Sableye as knock off causes it to altogether lose it's longetivity and it's easily dealt with by pretty much every other team format. As for the walling part, find Sableye to be a more than decent wall tbh. one doesn't necessarily need to run a mixed set, and mos of the Sableye's you'd come across would be physically defensive since it just fulfils that role quite well. I wouldn't say it is the best wall out there but it is more than decent at it when it comes to walling. That said, I will agree with you on the part that it gives some bulky mons and special attackers free switchins, but someof the mons you mention up there take a huge beating to them unless they are precisely switched into a Will-o- Wisp. That said, Meye isn't a total sitting duck either. Speaking of certain checks like Gardevoir, would definitely not want to switch into a Mega Sableye's attack. There exist two variants of it, one's the CM set, that's teh specially offensive one, and the other a foul play set which is more of a cripple and run wall. Also, as I had mentioned, pretty much every standard team type helps patch up Meye's weakness and some of it's checks that people mention every now and then aren't nearly as reliable as people usually take them to be.
I'll leave a few calcs with respect to the checks mentioned above.
MEye vs Garde switchin -
- 4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 116-140 (41.8 - 50.5%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
MEye vs Talon -
- 0- Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 165-195 (50.4 - 59.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
- 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 64-76 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
- +2 4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 244 HP / 192+ SpD Gliscor: 139-165 (39.4 - 46.8%) -- 87.1% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
( Yes, this seems gimmicky but Gliscor is nowhere an answer to Meye. It sure as hell switches in but from experience but stallbreaker Gliscor almost always runs out of PP in Earthquake while Sableye still retains a significant amount of PP's in recover and can continue boosting up to +6 on Gliscor if itichooses to stay in.)
SD Gliscor deals a whole lot better with the CM vairant of Meye that said, but then risks losing to the foul play variant if up against it.
- +2 0- Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 244 HP / 0 Def Gliscor: 162-192 (46 - 54.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Poison Heal
(And this is the standard mixed Gliscor set. The physically defensive variant deals with Foul Play Meye much better than this, but Gliscor, even with a physically defensive spread still retains a 90% chance to be 3hko'ed on it's way to SD.)
Standard physically defensive Gliscor vs Meye -
- +2 0- Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Gliscor: 141-166 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- 90.4% chance to 3HKO after Poison Heal
(MEye is also 3hko'ed in return, but gets an extra turn of damage as Gliscor absolutely needs to setup in order to reach this scenario.)
Heatran, Charizard are legit checks though. Heatran loses a whole lot of it's longetivity and doesn't last half as long once it's lefties have been knocked off (Knock off is another common move on MEye and usually goes hand in hand with the foul play variant), and the fairies are covered up by pretty much every other standard team format there is. Merely tossing in a Jirachi or a klefki goes as far as to check pretty much every single fairy out there with Diancie and Azumarril being the only fairies to actually look out for. Mega Sableye is not an offensive mon, that said, but it's an exceptional glue to teams. The CM set does sweep lol, but that's due it's bulk allowing it to do so, and the fact that Meye's weaknesses indeed are easily patched up is one of the reasons the CM set actually works. Anyway, Meye is a horrible mon all by itself, I'll agree on that, but I feel like it is too good a glue to teams and too good at what it does (Namely, completely nullifying some very useful mons be merely switching into them and also in strengthening stall to a huge extent by also completely disabling taunt upon a switch.). It is pain to try and use taunt to break stall with this as it cockblocks almost every bulky taunt user there is, which needless to say makes stall harder than ever to break.
Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to say Meye doesn't come with it's flaws, as it certainly does. Lava plume/ Scald burns hinder this to a great extent and fairies almost always force it out, but most mosn that cause these burns are easily handled by a well built team (Lava plume/ scald users, namely), and so are the fairies (Most of whom are dealt with rather easily merely after tossing a Jirachi/ Klefki into the mix.)
Imo, this thing does more harm than benefit and I really don't see any reason for it to stay back in OU, other than maybe the fact that it relies too much upon foul play, or multiple setup turns to do considerable damage. But then again, that clearly isn't what I feel makes this mon broken, but instead, the fact that this thing is a no brainer's way at handling some very viable mons in the tier which would work much better otherwise, in an environment without this matchup dependency taking place. And yeah, I guess I was mistaken in the last part of my post earlier. I wasn't referring to Meye as broken as in 'overpowered', if it sounded that way. I was referring to it as broken as in 'restrictive', or 'unhealthy'.
Out of curiousity: what are your thoughts on Scald in the current metagame? It's easily one of the best moves in the tier, because it has both an amazing distribution and an amazing secondary effect. I wouldn't say it's a "spam move x to win" kind of move, but it's probably the closest there is. It allows bulky waters to go by their would-be checks (think of Keldeo crippling [email protected]
Hi. For me it is the third best move of the game. (After the ever-present Stealth Rock and Knock Off.)
A Water-Move with 30% probability of burning and good base power, is viable in any playstyle. If you uses Offense, Keldeo burning [email protected]
This move is so annoying .imo
But it's not something properly broken but which often decides a battle.
Hi RBYer here, I personally quite like Scald. Firstly I think it's a cool way for pokemon to spread status. For a lot of pokemon it would otherwise be difficult fitting a status move onto a set, so in that regard it is a positive influence for a lot of pokemon.
Secondly, I feel that the cost/benefit ratio of using this move isn't too unbalanced. For defensive pokemon the damage inflicted by Scald is secondary to the chance of a burn, so it's often the case that Scald can be viewed as a 70% chance to do nothing- which means you need to play well in order to not get punished in the event that it doesn't burn. Offensive waters are another story- referring specifically to Keldeo and TG Manaphy. Here it becomes a case where you have to create an opportunity to use Scald- these pokemon don't have unlimited bulk, which makes fishing for a scald burn a dubious prospect unless you play well to create those opportunities. Basically I look at Scald and don't see anything different to what I'm used to in RBY- although you sometimes get rewarded for nothing, it is often a form of hax you have to earn.
Lastly I think there is adequate counterplay for Scald- Natural Cure, fat pokemon that have some means of clearing status, special attackers that resist/threaten scald spammers. I just feel like there are enough checks available and that they don't get overburdened as long as you manage things carefully
Alright, now that Shadow Tag is banned, we can look at new things. If I read up at the discussion above, it should be either:
A Baton Pass/Scolipede suspect. People have explained a number of times how speed passing is, well, cancer to the metagame. It's very easy to spot, but countering it is a different story, as most Baton Pass receivers have ways to counter the counter measures.
A possible retest of formerly banned mons. Prime candidates are (in my opinion) Genesect and Mega Metagross and maybe even Hoopa-U. I hope the people active on PS can say something about this, as they still have MGross and Hoopa-U in their metagame.
Baton Pass suspect is priority .imo
PS current clause; Baton Pass Clause: Limit one Baton Passer, can't pass Spe simultaneously and other stats.
We could do the same or go beyond; "Baton Pass Clause: Limit one Baton Passer, can't pass any change stats or Substitute."
After that retests would be welcome as Mega Metagross while Hoopa-U (B) is still broken for me.
PO doesn't do complex bans as far as I'm concerned, so the Baton Pass clause that PS has cannot be implemented here.
PO can do complex ban but we prefer not to because if a strategy is broken you will always find ways of using it, which is why we prefer banning the move/ability itself anyway.
I just have a request to posters, is that we stop comparing our tier with smogon's. They didn't ban Mega Eye and Hoopa-U though they had 50%+ on votes but not clear majority.
Nothing switches to Hoopa-U, Hyperspace breaks protect and subs and it has a wide movepool to dent all the supposed counters. In doubt just go read the suspect where everyone was like "ban pls"
The same goes to Mega Metagross, ok there is Mega Scizor, bulky chomp who can cripple it, but just pair it with mag and something to take care of chomp and megagross can sweep easily your team. Not to mention pursuit trap sets for Keldeo sweep.
Genesect is a pokemon that is still very good in the current meta. It can run so many sets it's hard to being a counter ( and no Heatran is not on 100% of the teams) I don't think it should be unbanned tbh
But please, just stop comparing PO and Smogon because we don't have the same playerbase and it's not because they didn't ban something that it means it's the good way to take
I'd love to stay and chat about M-Eye or B-Pass (the former is broken, the latter is not), but I can't come up with any reasonable arguments in my half-asleep stasis, so Scald.
I only beg to differ an one line here. As far as Keledo is concerned, Scald is most certainly a "spam move x to win" kind of move. I literally cannot send in a physical attacker on Keledo now, which sucks because my current Water checks all are Physical attackers with no recovery.
In my experience, Scald's burn chance is equal to Focus Blast's miss chance (which it is in theory). The issue is the RNG hates us all and FB misses a good 70% of the time. Scald feels the same way. I have gotten Scald Burned 5 times in a row more than once. An 80 base power move with a 70% chance of rendering it's target useless? Thats some bs there.
While the rest of your post seemed appropriate, this argument caught me off guard. First, Natural Cure is available to a total of 2 Pokemon classified as OU, Chansey and Starmie. "Fat pokemon that have some means of clearing status" is limited to Chansey and Clefable, and "special attackers that resist/threaten scald spammers" basically include Venusaur, Starmie, and [email protected]
All of this represents a quick glance over the OU tier list and my personal experience. If any data is incorrect, tell me.
It sounds to me like you've made literally zero preparations for the move and are now complaining when that doesn't work out for you
Seriously? Don't misrepresent facts. Scald's burn chance is 30%, not 70% and no amount of perceptive bias bullshit is going to change that. So fucking what if you got a couple incidents of bad luck from Scald? Of course you're going to remember that shit and not the majority of instances where you tanked the move no problem. This is really basic psychology here, and neglecting that in order to post explicitly incorrect information as fact is incredibly disappointing
Firstly, you forgot Celebi, which is far more viable than Chansey (viability>>>>>usage). Secondly, how on earth did you get a list that narrow? I guess I'll go ahead and make my own list of checks. For added challenge, I'll restrict myself to S/A rank of the viability rankings.
Clefable (Cleric, also Magic Guard + CM, recovery)
Manaphy (resists, CM+Hydration or TG+Energy Ball, take your pick)
Altaria (resists, is cleric and can be Special attacker, recovery)
Keldeo (resists, has Secret Sword)
Latios (resists, is special attacker, recovery)
Latias (resists, is special attacker, recovery)
Rotom-W (resists, is special attacker has STAB Electric attacks)
Bro (resists, has regenerator, is special attacker, CM+Psyshock, recovery)
Starmie (resists, recovery, natural cure)
Raikou (specially bulky, Electric STAB)
Note that there's a few shaky pokemon in those ranks that are either immune to burn or threaten Scald users, and take Scald neutrally (things like Zard-X and Thundurus), but they're still not really ideal Scald checks.
Note that this isn't even delving into B rank and below, where there's loads of checks
I highlighted the ones that don't care too much about a burn. All the others have either no recovery ([email protected]
EDIT: I carry enough checks to Scald on my teams, but if you neglect it in your teambuilding process, you're going to have a bad time.
I guess I'm just the type of person that doesn't want to run 3 checks to a single move. I thought that is why we complexed BP, so I didn't have to run 3 phazers on my team or be screwed if I accidentally let it get set up.
@Ortheore I looked at my battle logs from the past 2 months (Since 9 October, 360 battles across all tiers), and I have been burned by just under 65% of eligible (doesn't KO, isn't on a Fire type or otherwise immune to Burn, pokemon is not already statused) Scalds and have burned with a little under 50% of my eligible Scalds. So not quite 70%, but def not 30. That is what I based that statement on. RNG really hates me. And I forgot Celebi existed. I did not see a Celebi in any OU match in said 360 logs (probably 200 of which are OU), and about 3 times in UU.
Also ewwww who runs special or cleric Altaria. Just run DD kids
I run DD Heal bell Return Roost mega Altaria, it sets up more easily on scarf Keldeo and on Rotom and can help the team getting cured. It's a good set I don't know why you're thinking it has no use.
Scald is one of these moves you will never ban for the same reason you won't ban Nuzzle or Thunder or Iron Head. Unlike Swagger who was totally competitive, Scald is a move that has to be taken into consideration ( Knock off as well )
In a sense you can say it's game changing though you have a ton of counters ( Celebi, Altaria, Toxicroak and in the future Volcanion lol )
Anyway just to say luck is part of the game and you won't remove it, just deal with it or play a better team that fears less burns
True, most of that list is bothered to some extent by a burn (lol Venu and Rotom are perfect examples), but the idea was to cover pokemon which can work in a majority of situations- like [email protected]
The issue is that almost nothing can truly claim to be not bothered by burns
Want to address some nominations going around for the next suspect:
Although I agree that there is much controversy towards this move, I strongly disagree that it is as uncompetitive or broken as the other banned moves in Swagger and the evasion moves. 30% chance to burn off a decent 80 BP water move seems pretty average at first, but the nature of the move (and the strange high chance of burn it usually has in practice) is somehow deemed broken by a majority of players. It reminds me of the BW days when everyone was crying for a ban of this move, as there was apparently no counterplay to it. I do not believe this is true, as there are plenty of ways to deal with it. If your team is only carrying physical attackers there is a problem, also there are decent grass types in the tier in Mega Venausaur, Celebi and Serperior including the Latis that all don't mind switching into the move not even fearing the burn. Guts users, clerics and many other options exist to deal with the burn chance, and if we are talking about spammable moves, wouldn't Knock Off apply more? A 97.5 BP (if opp still has item) dark type move that takes away a critical element in competitive play which sometimes decreases the viability of the mon due to it relying on it's item, but there is still counterplay with this move in mega pokemon and bulky walls that don't mind if there leftovers is taken away (even then they don't appreciate losing their passive recovery). It can be considered an annoying move, but that is what teambuilding is for, to adapt to common meta trends which increases your chances of winning. People are really overblowing the RNG it possesses. No Ban.
Spoiler: Baton Pass
I already discussed this in a previous post so won'y say much...
If anything needs to be banned at the moment it is this. BP has always been an effective "strategy" in competitive play, it became too effective so we decided to ban it so that only one mon can carry it per team. Imo, this still didn't solve the problem as "Scolipass" has been becoming an oncoming presence in the current meta, tbh an unhealthy one. It consists of Scolipede passing either Speed + Attack boosts to a physical attacker and sweep or it passing Speed + Defense to a bulky CM sweeper in Clefable which again sweeps. Some say thsi strategy is matchup based, but honestly can be pulled of against any team style as long as threats that can break the chain are gone. Since PO does not want to do another complex ban on Spe + other stat and banning Scolipede would be unconventional imo as we did not ban Gothitelle instead of Shadow Tag, we should ban the move entirely. It may have repercussions as dry passing for momentum is seen as a somewhat common strategy that is not broken, but it is something we have to deal with if we cannot complex ban.
Spoiler: Mega Metagross
This is not the most important thing to do atm, but I still believe has merit to be done in the future. I have always wondered why Mega Metagross was banned, yes it has very good stats and typing, which allowed it to plow down weakened teams, but there are plenty other megas that can do the same in Mega Altaria, Mega Loppuny and Mega Charizard X. There are counters that exist in Mega Slowbro, Mew, Skarmory (although it cannot do much back, it can still phaze it out), Mega Sableye and Mandibuzz, depending on it's rather shallow movepool. It's speed while good, cannot compete with meta threats such as Weavile, Mega Manectric, Mega Loppuny and Raikou. It can threaten balance and stall to some point, but they usually carry mons that can deal with it without even considering it. I don't really like this argument but it does have 4MSS as it cannot run Meteor Mash, Zen Headbutt, Grass Knot, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Earthquake, Hammer Arm and Bullet Punch all on the same set, which people usually use to counter the "it has counters" argument. The meta has evolved quite a bit since it was last allowed, moving into a more offensive stage which I personally believe MegaGross would have a somewhat difficult time adapting with. It is really good, but I believe it has the potential to be granted a retest. This is not because I believe that "since Smogon didn't ban it, we shouldn't either", it is because I legitimately believe that there are bigger threats in the current meta that are not banned, so why should MegaGross be. If we suspect it and it remains banned then so be it, but at least we can test whether or not it is as "broken" as it was once presumed it was.
Spoiler: Mega Sableye
I also mentioned this earlier but I Mega Sableye is quite annoying to face right now. Magic Bounce on a defensive mon is real nasty combo, as it can literally stop any form of status towards your team. Dark/Ghost is also amazing defensively, and the utility it provides for stall in unparalleled. I don't have too much of an opinion on it, but I and a few other players agree that it can possibly be suspected, I might develop more opinions then.
Do not ban Scald
Ban Baton Pass
Retest Mega Metagross
Suspect Mega Sableye
For everyone thinking that I want Scald banned: I don't. I just wanted to see what your opinions were on the move, since this is the "Oras OU Metagame Discussion Thread" and not the "Potential Suspects Thread".
[11:37:37 PM] Draciel: hey finch
[11:37:40 PM] Draciel: got a minute
[11:38:27 PM] Finch: y
[11:38:29 PM] Finch: sup
[11:38:54 PM] Draciel: would u like to come back to PO as outl yn
Guess whose back.
Tell a friend.
1) Yes, this is serious - I lead ORAS OU on PO now. There may be a council or another leadership change in the near future.
2) I feel like the Hoopa suspect was poorly discussed and sort of rushed (see: the "hey we beat smogon" effect)...did we really beat them? Hoopa looks fine in their metagame and we never gave it a fair chance in our own. I'm not saying if it is 100% balanced or 100% broken, but I am saying that I would like to discuss the prospect of a retest.
3) I feel like a lot of time has passed since the Mega-Meta restest and the nature of that decision was poor (see: the tier leaders were both sort of split and we leaned on the side of banning due to the fact that the tier was lackluster with it, but it really isn't broken and it's a good addition to the tier, if anything).
4) After the two above issues are dealt with, maybe discussing the prospect of a scald test, dealing with baton pass, and looking at the overall nature of our tiering.
I'm back baby.
So basically no Mega Sableye suspect and we're going to have our own Smogon tier :x
I really REALLY like this new attitude :D Welcome back Finch!
Wait why aren't we suspecting Mega Sableye, am I missing something?
I feel we should wait for Volcanion to be released to suspect scald ((and Steam Eruption (when it comes out))
Also, welcome back Finch.
A Mega Sableye suspect will likely happen at some point in the future, but we believe that re-testing something that is long over-due in the tier is necessary first. Do not worry; we will handle things quickly and make sure to approach them logically, with all of your input in mind. Thanks for expressing your concerns guys and keep it up!
Just a quick PSA:
Do not post about the XY OU tier that has been readded on the server in this topic, as this topic is solely for ORAS OU, which is our current main tier. That tier has been added upon request similar to BW2 OU and others, and we will not be doing suspect tests or having suspect discussions on the tier in question. Any talk of XY OU can either go in the 6th Gen Discussion forum (but make sure you mention XY OU in the topic's title) or in the Pokémon Chat subforum.
I was asked on the server about this, so I felt the need to clarify.
Now that Monotype has complex bans, are we allowed to discuss the possibilities for ORAS OU as well? Or would you rather keep this tier complex ban free?
Monotype has a different banning philosophy compared to OU, as the Pokemon has to be looked as it if we're two different mons due to it being able to be used on two separate teams. Meaning Gensect can be broken in steel, but not so much on Bug, while Gensect is just broken in OU, and let's say complex banning U-Turn from it is way more detrimental then compared to a monotype complex ban.
Sorry if that dosent make any sense, tried to explain it the best I could.
We can implement complex bans in any tier. But the ideal is to have as little of them as possible because:
a) complex bans are less intuitive than a ban list. The rules should be as simple as possible
b) we try to be as true to the game as we can
Due to these factors, we look at mons unbalancing the tier first before changing the more over arching concepts involved in complex bans. They are done when there are no other solutions.
After a discussion with the Tier Leaders, I have decided to ban all the moves whose sole effect is confusion or infatuation; these are: Confuse Ray, Flatter, Supersonic, Sweet Kiss, Teeter Dance and Attract.
(This also includes the previously banned Swagger.)
The aforementioned moves contribute nothing to the competitive aspect of the game, and basically turns the came into a series of coinflips. We feel like there is enough RNG involved in the game already, we don't need these moves to compound the 'luck' factor anymore.
This ban will be applied in Ubers so that it's banned from all competitive tiers below that. Have fun with a less-RNG based game from now on (not really)!
I mean i understand the notion, but is there any real competitive set that involves moves such as Confuse Ray and Attract. Swagger was one thing as it raised you opp atk by 2nd making them hit themselves harder any make Foul Play hit harder. Banning or not banning these moves to me seem arbitrary.
By definition there is no competitive set that relies on Confusion or Infatuation.
The entire point of this is the same as the ban of evasion moves. They serve no purpose other than to throw the game to the RNG. The point isn't that the moves are too good or powerful, but that they undermine the foundation of competition within the various metagames without adding anything in return.
Pretty much everything we (and smogon) do is arbitrary, there's no perfect guideline as to what is and isn't banable. We can parade around with fancy processes and votes, but at the end of the day everything we ban is arbitrary.
Few things if you want me to implement this:
Split this post and all related discussion into its own thread. This is a major change and I'm starting to get irritated that changes are happening inside giant threads that aren't easy to look at. I don't want this to become a thing because once the link disappears from notice, it's lost in the abyss.
What tiers does this apply to? If I place the ban in Ubers, we have some tiers that still aren't affected (possibly. I forgot how inheriting works). The following are not 100% obvious from your post.
LC? (kinda is, but just verifying)
Past Gens (Mainly XY)?
Also Battle Factory will need to be checked for compliance as well.
In the same line of thought, it is time to ban Lax Incense and Bright Powder too?
Confusion / Attraction are a 50% chance of not moving at all. Lax Incense / Bright Powder just reduce move accuracy by ~7%. Things like recovery, moves without an accuracy check, and hazards aren't even affected. Yeah you're giving up your item slot in the same vein as a move slot for confusion / attract so really it comes down to whether the TLs feel that a 7% chance of not attacking is ban worthy enough.
Separate names with a comma.