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ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.

Moderators: Draciel, Finchinator, sulcata
  1. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Not a huge deal, but incredibly annoying especially on low-level ladder: could we ban Brightpowder under the Evasion Clause? It doesn't contribute anything to the tier other than frustration and there's no legit set that uses it. Also fuck Sand Veil + Sand + Brightpowder Garchomp niche.
     
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  2. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I totally thought Brightpowder (and Lax Incense, and Sand Veil, and Snow Cloak) were in fact all banned, but if they weren't then yeah make them gtfo.
     
  3. MyTearsYourWeapon

    MyTearsYourWeapon Musical Ninja

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    [​IMG]

    So after Smogon's widely publicized April Fool's test of Giritina-O for Suspect Unbanning in OU (and the results of said joke suspect revealing that it was nowhere near as broken as everyone thought and actually fit quite nicely in the tier), there have been massive pushes to give it a full, serious suspect test in OU on Smogon and I happen to be one of those people who agree. Now allow me to plead my case for us to set the precedent and unban it here, and why it would be healthy for the metagame;

    - Dragon / Ghost typing actually works hard against Giritina-O in OU, due to the prevalence of Faster and Stronger Dragons / Faeries / Faster and Stronger Ghost and Dark types
    - Being limited to Griseous Orb as a hold item severely hinders his capabilities; while it does allow his STAB moves to hit harder, it means it has no form of passive recovery, no active recovery outside Rest / Pain Split (which is not viable due to his high base HP), it also means that he's unable to use Choice Items (no firing off Specs / Boosting with Scarf / firing off Band); which further limits his offensive capabilities
    - Its non defensive stats. 120 Offenses without any items bar STAB boosting moves are nowhere near as hard hitting as you think, in fact; they're just average. Quite a few Pokemon can actually switch into Giritina-O without any problems. This is compounded by the fact that unless Giritina-O runs a mixed set with a slot dedicated to Iron Head, it has no way to deal with the multitude of Faeries running around OU with high Special Defenses. Even with Iron Head, it fails to net many important OHKOs or 2HKOs and it has no item choices to rectify that lack of power (you will sorely miss the lack of Life Orb or Choice Band) Also, having 90 base Speed hampers it even more, allowing a multitude of Pokemon to survive a hit and 2HKO it with ease thanks to the immense power creep in OU
    - Giritina-O's best and most common Ubers set (Physical Defog) (Defog, Shadow Sneak, Shadow Force, Dragon Tail) is arguably next to useless in OU due to the extra need for coverage to be able to function at all.
    - Once again, passive damage can severely wear down Giritina-O (From Weather to Poison to Rocks, it doesn't have reliable recovery and Defog wastes a slot in OU that could be used for vital coverage)
    - While it is countered / checked by a numerous amount of Pokemon; it's actually healthy for the tier due to the specific Pokemon that Giritina-O can check / counter (namely Heatran thanks to Giritina-O's access to Earth Power / Earthquake) and multiple Pokemon have great synergy with it.

    So I beg of you please, look at the evidence in Smogon's testing of Giritina-O last April and let's give this thing a healthy suspect unban in OU to seriously test it out.
     
  4. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Before I respond, I'd like to say generally that I've been recently added to the OU council. If you ever have any questions or concerns, I'm always a PM away and would love to help.

    That being said, the following response is my own personal opinion, so take it with a grain of salt.

    You brought up many fair points, some of them relevant and certainly many of them valid, but I think you missed the point of the Giratina-O suspect. I don't feel that the majority consensus in that community felt Giratina-O was "broken" in the traditional sense of being overpowering or lacking checks and counters. It clearly has its flaws and shortcomings both in its held item, 4MSS (debatable) and average speed stat, among other things. Rather, it remained banned because the jobs it did -- checking prominent offensive threats such as Keldeo, Serperior, Zard Y, etc. -- it did to such an extent that any team would likely be worse off without having it. At least, that's the argument you would have to refute if you want it unbanned: that Giratina-O (or even regular Giratina) wouldn't over-centralize the tier. There are other more broad questions you would have to answer as well, but that seems to be the main one.

    In fairness it isn't the worst idea in the world, but I have serious doubts about either the PO or PS communities accepting a centralizing force like Giratina-O given that both communities emphatically rejected Aegislash.
     
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  5. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Giritina-o will not be tested. It get @Finchinator wants to make Smog2 but please no. Giritina would be stupid over centralizing and it makes me feel silly to type reasons why. I respect the fact that you took the time to write a legible post, but with a decent amount of metagame knowledge, its clear that it will never be ou this gen.
    Can we please talk about things relevant to po.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I actually was going to bring up the idea of an Aegislash retest after Hoopa-B's is finished. Like you said, Giratina is not conventionally broken on paper but I did get to practice with it in Smogon during its retest, and I could have already telled that it would over centralize the tier because it is too good and splash able. Will give reasons for Aegi suspect when the current one is finished.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2016
  7. MyTearsYourWeapon

    MyTearsYourWeapon Musical Ninja

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    Thank you for the reply. I would actually argue that Aegislash is effectively in many ways far stronger than Giritina-O; so while I'm still against Aegislash being in the tier I'm all for Giritina-O getting a test. My reasons for Aegislash being superior come down to a few simple reasons.

    - Typing; Steel / Ghost is leagues better than Dragon / Ghost and leaves it with countless niches, (such as STAB Iron Head and a multitude of resistances)
    - The ability to use an item (speaks for itself)
    - 150 / 150 Offenses (that thanks to King's Shield can also switch over into Defenses), it hits way harder on both sides thanks to this and is far more unpredictable.
     
  8. Xdevo

    Xdevo God Bless the President Tier Leader Tour Director Tier Leader Tour Director

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    I have a lot of trouble believing that Aegislash is stronger than Giratina-O within the OU meta.

    Steel / Ghost and Dragon / Ghost (with levitate) are both of similar usefulness. Steel has very poor coverage, and while it provides a lot of resists, Fire and Ground are both exceptionally common types in OU. Ice (at least non-Hidden Power Ice) and Dragon aren't that common or aren't coming from things that Giratina would switch into / would switch into Giratina. Fairy is a reasonably common type, but none of the common fairy mons would want to switch into Gira (Clef is 2HKO'd by Adamant Shadow Force, and can't stall with Protect, Mega Gard hates Shadow Sneak, Mega Diance takes a ton from Shadow Force + Sneak or Earth Power). Whereas, things like Heatran, Lando-T, Hippowdon are all somewhat capable of switching into Aegi (if its the right set) and hitting with a powerful STAB move. Dragon is a muuuuch better Offensive typing, especially with most of the Steels and Fairies in OU not being able to take a Shadow Force / Earth Power or Iron Head. Water, Electric, Fire, and Ground resistances / immunities are also very helpful for checking things like Keld, Zard-Y, Lando-T, Heatran, Thundurus, Manectric, Raikou, Rotom-W, Serp, Slowbro, Starmie, Venusaur, Standard Gyara, Magnezone, Offensive Celebi, Rain teams, Volcarona, Zapdos, Victini, and Gliscor.

    I'm not sure why Giratina-O "not being able to use an item" is an argument. Griseous Orb gives both of Giratina's STAB moves a 20% boost without any loss of health (like LO), the lack of an ability to choose what item you hold is a hindrance, though I would argue that Griseous Orb is a pretty great item for something that wants to retain bulk and hit pretty hard with STAB moves. I would use it before using Life Orb on offensive sets. Griseous Orb also means that Knock Off is only 65 BP against it, which is useful to patch up the weakness to Dark considering that Knock Off is probably 50% of the relevant Dark STAB / Coverage in OU.

    The last point is true, Aegislash does mathematically have a higher set of attacking stats, but it lacks a powerful (100+) BP move to use, which means that its going to have trouble matching the damage output of a Giratina physically (Outrage and Shadow Force > Iron Head and Shadow Claw), and somewhat specially (Draco Meteor > Flash Cannon). I should note that Giratina's powerful STABs have drawbacks (locked into play, two-turn move, and Special Drops respectively) but they all serve the purpose on a bulky hitter like Giratina.
    252 Atk Griseous Orb Giratina-O Outrage vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 295-348 (45.9 - 54.2%)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 274-325 (42.6 - 50.6%)

    252 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 123-145 (19.1 - 22.5%)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Flash Cannon vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 107-126 (16.6 - 19.6%)

    I don't really see how Aegi is any more unpredictable than Giratina. Aegi had 3 very good sets (which had almost no counter overlap), while (in theory) Giratina can run a lot of different stuff. CroTina (RestTalk, CM, Shadow Ball), 3 Phy Atk Defog, WispHex, 3 Special Atk Defog, SubCm, CM Wisp, and Full Defensive are all sets that I can see working at least reasonably well. I also don't see much counter overlap between a CroTina set and a Physical one either.

    Lastly, Aegislash's 150 Defenses might make it seem bulkier than Giratina, but Giratina's titanic 150 HP gives Giratina better bulk overall. Giratina only needs 92 HP EVs to at minimum match Aegi's fully invested bulk. I'm fairly confident that Giratina's HP is so high that it would use Def or SpDef Evs to maximize its bulk anyway, but its still quite a bit bulkier than Aegi.

    252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 186-218 (57.4 - 67.2%)
    252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Giratina-O: 264-312 (56.8 - 67.2%)
     
  9. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    While I personally am not willing to retest Giratina-O in the ORAS OU metagame at any point in the near future, I would like to note that the main focus now should be on the Hoopa retest. However, if you would like to discuss potential future lines of action, please use this thread to discuss these matters - just know that they are not the priority now and I don't think another retest will happen for a while given that we have had two very recently and another one isn't in our plans, but discussing potential suspects from the current metagame may be a bit more realistic! Finally, remember all forum rules apply to this thread when it comes to posting arguments.

    Oh yea and welcome @Lameflame to the OU tiering council :D
     
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  10. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Hoopa-Unbound is back to the realm of Ubers as of today. Feel free to discuss potential suspects or retests, but let it be known that the OU council is not likely to retest anything again in the direct future, but that may change as time elapses. Thank you and enjoy posting!
     
  11. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    So it's time to talk sableye.

    MEye is currently the definition of metagame defining.

    While on paper it may see like a one dimensional wall, in practice it has all the bells and whistles it needs to handle most of the tier.
    It all starts with knock off. Meye has the best knock off in the tier (better at KOff than bisharp!) due to the ability to beat every user of rocky helm. As a defensive mon, to get such useful utility in a stab with surprising power is incredible. This allows eye to wear down checks on the switch very efficiently.

    Meye is not very passive! Between stab knock off, wilo, and foul play, nothing can truly say it can switch in for free (diancie takes 30+ from foul). Prio wisp also lets it function as check to speedy sweepers.

    The best way to deal with eye is...
    Don't let it mega so you can set up hazards and wear it down. Usually this is done by predicting the opponent will lead with eye in order to mega quickly and counter that by leading with a fairy. This works on sets that run Koff+foul play. It does not work if it drops a move for fake out, which gives it free mega and bonus dmg.

    Once Meye has evo'd
    You probably only have 2 mons on your team that can kill it. Whether by fairy or status attack matters not, but those checks need to outlive Eye in a match where hazard control is at best neutral. These checks can be dealt with a moderate amount of support: heal bell and fairy stops, both of which are found on most teams. Eye can beat every common rocker save heatran (cm can, but that's a bad set). No hazards extends the game, which means that the knocks and wilo's this thing flings around have a huge impact. It has a great deal of flexibility to be ev'ed in def or spcD letting it hard counter mons like Rotom or Scizor. While it does have to choose, that is information which only the sableye guy has; thereby further adding to the difficulty of killing it quickly. This spawns a need for longevity (heal bell/wish) on teams that normally should not need it simply because of the environment that MEye creates.

    While there are ways to overprepare for it such as rocks clef or specs sylveon, these are minor flaws in the best supportive mon we have had in oras. Because it is the most consistent mon in the tier, I believe Msableye is suspect

    talon
    scizor
    rotom
    lando
    exca
    ferro
    skarm
    Tyranitar

    Slowbro
    Bisharp
    Chansey
    Dnight
    Venu
    Zardx
    Starmie
    Breloom
    MMeta
    Weavile
    Zapdos
    MLatias
    Amoongus
    Mandibuzz
    MMedicham
    Hippowdon
    Swampert
    Donphan
    Alomomola
    MGallade
    Mew
    Reuni
    Lucario
    Chesnaught
    Azelf
    Shuckle
    Terrakion
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
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  12. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Mega Sableye has really pitful offenses and unless you run a CM set, MEye won't sweep anything. It is good because of the utility it brings and the support for its teammates.

    The biggest problem with MEye is its speed after mega evolving, because it's really hard pressed to find an opportunity to use Recover vs faster paced teams. With some intelligent play, it's really easy to chip ~30% away from Meye, at which point it is 2HKOd by most offensive mons in the tier. It excels vs support mons because of its great defensive stats and Magic Bounce, but its typing is not good enough to deal with offense, as it has barely any useful resitances. Also, it does lose against Mold Breaker Exca (who can get its rocks up and then switch out) and Clefable, who are common SR users on teams.

    Also, don't forget the opportunity cost in using Mega Sableye, as you use your mega slot for a relatively passive mon. Knock Off loses a lot of its value once you've removed an item from the intended target, and most MEye switchins don't care too much about losing their item (apart for Heatran).

    To conclude with your list:

    All in all, I think you're really overestimating Mega Sableye's ability to take hits. It's an amazing utility mon, especially vs bulkier teams, but it struggles a lot vs VoltTurn and offensive, which are more common in the meta atm. Therefore, I don't think we should suspect MEye.
     
  13. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    "Intelligent play" is clearly code for: play better, lol. Exactly what are you doing that is getting free chip damage without sableye doing significant and irreparable damage to your team?

    Excadrill does lose. Getting forced out or burned and not being able to spin is losing. It can have a small chance to 2hko with lo eq. But prio wisp means meye can still switch in and burn you. Getting up rocks when you find a free turn is nice, but not really a game changer.

    Knock off is stupid good. I don't need to defend the best user of the move

    It kind of sounds like you are the one that is expecting too much of mega sableye. It doesn't need to wall a whole team. Its presence in a game puts the pace in special sabletime. While checking huge portions of the tier, Sableye has the best offense presence of any defencive mon (yes better than sylveon).

    I don't see how something that beats every user of the move uturn and rotom, could struggle against voltturn.

    Fighting/psy/psn/normal type resists with 1 weakness is actually good defensively; bc it's the best spinblockereverrrrr

    Rocks clef is sub optimal and only exists because sableye exists. Rocks clef is also much less threatening to slow paced teams in general bc it gave up calm mind remember? Honestly rocks clef is suboptimal in any game that doesn't have a sableye. It isn't even sure if it wants to run leftovers or life orb, I find rocks clef an abomination of the metagame
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
  14. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Stemming from a post I wrote a while back, I believe Mega Sableye really saturates the hazard game and creates a sort of bias and disadvantage to the player facing it. Since hazards are so important and omnipresent in the OU metagame (sometimes defines outcome of games), a mon that can almost guratantee to block hazards from your side of the field (I run Fake Out to mega evolve) it can be seen as a centralizing and concentrated pokemon. It man rope is not to sweep teams, but rather to provide immense amount of support to other mons that would otherwise succumb to hazards (see Shedinja and Talonflame).

    However it's low HP and Speed is quite a disadvantage as it sometimes gets 2HKOed and 0hkoed by some powerful neutral hits, while fairies straight counter it. It also needs to mega evolve to block hazards which it can't do in the switchin pre-mega. Also stall teams have gone down after Shadow Tag was banned, leaving mega Sab really only seen on more balance teams, which I feel can come at a slight opportunity cost at times depending on the team.

    Overall I am not sure if Mega Sableye is that ban worthy, but I believe a suspect is at least warranted for it.
     
  15. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    Losing Baton Pass in the tier affects Pokemon like Shedinja making it a tad bit worse as a pivot. While I do agree that Mega Sableye is really annoying, I don't think that its broken to the point of ban worthy. It takes a full support core for it to function and even then the team has mons that can break through.

    Something I wanted to bring up was with Baton Pass now banned from ORAS OU that we look into some pokemon that were banned because of its exploits.. notably Blaziken. No, not the mega form. The biggest reason that pushed it over the edge was being able to pass the boosts to something else that it couldn't take out, making it both an amazing support Pokemon as well as mixed sweeper. Heck, it could even act as its own set-up sweeper with SD. While it did have its checks back then I think that without Baton Pass to push it over the edge its something worth retesting in the tier.

    Wanted to gather up some opinions and discussion regarding this to have some movement in the tier c:
     
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  16. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I was thinking about this as well. Of course it is a powerful pokemon with 120/110/80 offenses coupled with Speed Boost, but it is nothing really truly outstanding when we look at what currently rests in OU atm (notably: Weavile, Keldeo, Kyreum-B, Mega Metagross, etc...). There are also quite a bit of checks to it in Talonflame, Azumarill, Garchomp, Landorus-T, Slowbro, etc... Although I don't really think it has any guaranteed counters after a Swords Dance boost. I wouldn't be opposed to the notion however.
     
  17. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Blazikin-C's best set was bp. But that was not the set that was the most popular or even the main reason it was banned. Speed boost with access to powerful, mixed stabs and boosting make it far and away better than anything in ou. It has a decent amount of flexibility still with life orb vs sash. Kin sweeps/revenges so much of the metagame and would have a lovely affect of forcing a talonflame on every team. Don't test this
     
  18. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    Personally, I think it would be interesting to see how the metagame would handle Blaziken. I phrase it that way because I don't really see it's return to OU or its stay in Ubers coming down to a lack of options to check/counter it, but more about how much better it would (or wouldn't) make offensive teams. If anything I feel it would promote higher usage for bulky waters such as Suicune, Gyarados, Mega Slowbro and Alomomola (on stall teams) as well as Landorus-T, Dragonite and Mega Altaria, as Talon is only revenging it most of the time. Offensively it is checked by a lot more, even after a speed boost. Rain offense might make a nice comeback on a Blaziken suspect ladder as well, although that can't be known for sure. It also runs into a bit of 4MSS, as it has a ton of useful coverage options it would like to run (like Stone Edge to hit incoming Talons, HP Ice for Chomp/Lando, Knock Off for Slowbro, Poison Jab is bad to hit fairies, etc.), but it also really needs to run Protect, and SD sets limit it to essentially dual stabs, which is not that unreasonable to scout.

    On the other hand I can definitely see how it might be a strain on teambuilding to account for Blaziken. I won't post a laundry list of calcs but aside from the bulky waters I mentioned (and I didn't list everything), if you actually go through and calc its STABs against a few of the common "checks" in the metagame people are running like TankChomp, Talon and Lando-T, most of the time it's netting a 2HKO. I can see this resulting in a lot more priority spam on offensive teams and especially things like Azu and Excadrill, which are already common. It isn't heavily reliant on prediction, which is one criterion that I think gets overlooked way more than it should, so the user of Blaizken has a bit more freedom to predict its checks to come in as opposed to something like choiced Hoopa-U where a wrong move might lead to a Pursuit trap. It does have pretty subpar bulk and speed, but the latter is remedied in one turn by its ability and at +2 it becomes really difficult to check defensively.

    I can also see it forming some very deadly overload cores with other strong breakers, such as Zard X whose checks overlap with it. The extent to which it does this would probably determine my vote if it ever came to one. On the other hand, the metagame is currently running many of both the offensive and defensive checks to Blaziken and I don't think anything I or other posters have listed are "unviable" or proof of "over-centralization" by any means. I'm not sure if the metagame would be better off with it or without it but the prospect is definitely interesting.
     
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  19. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Well, that is the point of a retest after all. It's one of those Pokemon that isn't an "uber by design" but who has nevertheless been missing from the entire generation, which means that unlike MegaGross and Hoppa, any and all discussion on it is pure theorymon. And since (one of) the reason(s) it was considered broken is no longer relevant, that leaves a very real possibility that it wouldn't be a problem anymore. Personally I've always felt Blaziken was annoying but not broken unless it had a BP set. It's power is solid but not too terrible compared to the tier's other heavy hitters, strong priority is everywhere (we actually have 4 viable CB Aqua Jet users alone and Talonflame is... Well, Talonflame), the already popular physical defensive behemoths check it well, and we even have several Megas and scarfed mons that can outrun it even at +1 (and Mega Zam has the benefit of Tracing the speed boost). It's also a pretty nice stop to MegaEye, being a super hard physical attacker who doesn't care about burns. I personally think that if ZardX and Talon have gone on as is without breaking the tier, Blaziken should be in a similar boat now that its cheapest strategy is a thing of the past.
     
  20. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I'd be really interested to see how Blaziken would fare in OU to be honest. It should be noted though that only bulky Waters without a Dark weakness check/counter Blaziken, as it has access to Knock Off which does a lot of damage at +2. Revenge killing is probably much easier, as 80 base speed is really underwhelming, even at +1 because most scarfs aim to outspeed base 81 for Mega Gyarados.

    Some calcs to show its power:

    252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 212-251 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 356-421 (90.3 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 281-331 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Blaziken High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 164+ Def Garchomp: 419-495 (99.7 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

    That being said, it's very easy to wear down between hazards and recoil damage, especially when it runs a LO, so it'll not be as broken as it may sound on paper.
     
  21. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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  22. Draciel

    Draciel Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director

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    Just popping up to say that Volcanion has been officially released and is now usable in ORAS OU.
     
  23. Casparov

    Casparov This is supposed to be a Medal!

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    Can we use it in powc next week?
     
  24. Draciel

    Draciel Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director Admin / Tier Overlord Server Owner Tour Director

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    Yes, Volcanion can be used from next week onward, and the team captains have also been notified.
     
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  25. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    First and foremost, Blaziken was not banned because of Baton Pass at all - Blaziken was banned due to its ability to pose a threat offensively w/ physical and mixed sets that lacked a fair amount of counters and counterplay in the metagame.


    First off, Unaware Clefable is quite uncommon in the current metagame. In addition, the most common spread is 96 SDef+, not 248/252. It is true that things like Slowbro being more common and tank chomp being more common hinder it to some extent, in theory, but that does not necessarily detract from the brokennness. Tank Chomp is usually being worn out early game and saving your SR setter at near full or full late game for Blaziken is such a burden in itself while Slowbro, as your calc shows, can't check SD variants and more and more people are running some SDef on their Slowbros nowadays, too.

    Overall, Blaziken's SD set would have a small handful of checks while it would cause a defensive shift in the metagame that currently isn't needed or warranted and that doesn't even account for mixed sets that can potentially negate any traditional counterplay to the SD set. Therefore, I do not see it as highly likely that we will retest Blaziken at the time being.

    With that said, however, I'm not going to completely overhaul a vast majority opinion and dictate everything that happens in the tier, so if enough people express interest with valid points and are willing to consistently back their opinions, we will have to strongly consider this, so feel free to respond and generate discussion on this matter although I do not think the prospect is very likely (there are also plenty of other things to discuss, too, so don't be shy on those matters, either!)
     
  26. Experienced coach

    Experienced coach New Member

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    Volcanion is too strong to or absorb water and steam eruptiom 30% ac 95,110 more talomflame strength and Loupony
     
  27. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I don't think Volcanion is broken at the moment in OU, it sure has good wallbreaking capabilities, but it doesn't have an outstanding moveset/base stats that would push it over the edge. Having a low 70 Speed means you'll struggle with a lot of mons, even if you decide to run a Scarf set, and the Choice specs ( which is arguably the most common one I've seen) has several switchins, including [email protected], Dragonite with Lum Berry, Chansey, Tentacruel and to an extent Spe def Rotom-w or even Keldeo who can come in a resisted move. It is easily pressured by offensive archetypes ( Mega Manectric, [email protected] LO Dracos, Hydreigon and I pass a lot) so I don't see it that problematic at the moment. Being forced also to run Power herb with solar beam to pass mons such as Rotom and Manaphy or even Superpower LO to cripple Chansey reduces a lot it's wallbreaking capabilities. It's very new in the metagame and yet I don't feel like it's broken at all, maybe time will prove me wrong.
     
  28. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    Rotom-W and Keldeo are 2HKOed by Specs after rocks or burn damage from the initial Steam Eruption switch-in. Specially Defensive Rotom-W doesn't exist but w/e. Lol Dragonite as a switch.

    I'm not sure why being able to run Herb Beam or LO Superpower "reduces a lot of its wallbreaking capabilities". If anything, it reduces the pool of counters / checks it has bc it can bop them by minimally adjusting your set - yeah you lose Specs' "oomph" but if your team is annoyed by either Chansey or Water-types, that lure might come more in handy than spamming Steam Eruption (which is what Specs will be doing 99% of the time).

    This thing isn't broken, just very good and splashable in a lot of teams - it can run a million sets to tailor what its team needs (Specs, Herb Beam, Defensive, Scarf, Mixed LO or Ebelt, hell even rly niche shit like Band) while also having an obnoxiously good move to spam. The speed and the SR weak are the biggest issues, and as people wisen up, killing Steam Eruption's low PP reduces Volcanion's effectiveness as well (Pressure stalling it with stuff like Suicune, Water Absorb / Storm Drain mons like Jellicent / Gastrodon).
     
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  29. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Herb means you don't have the power of Specs/Splash plate and LO means you'll lose very progessively health and thus would be easier to take down. Also the fact it doesn't learn Taunt means you need prior damage on Chansey to 2hko with Superpower. Let's not forget Steam eruption is not that much spammable, it only has 8 pp and these can go down quite easily. I said lum dnite can check cause Lum and eq 2hko'es. Arguably, when you lack the power of the specs, you lose a lot of wallbreaking capabilities. I know Rotom-W spe def is not a thing anymore, but if the meta will drastically change with Volca, people might start running it ( similarly the same that happened with Torn-T during BW to the point Phy Def Rotom-W was a wtf set)
    As I mentionned, it's still very early to judge if Volcanion is broken or not, but from my personal experience, I haven't seen it much problematic. Heck, it doesn't outspeed TankChomp lol
     
  30. E.T.

    E.T. OHHHH YES!!! Tier Leader Channel Leader Articles Leader Tier Leader Channel Leader Articles Leader

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    I've been playing around with Volcanion recently, and I agree with most people in saying that it isn't broken. I tried an Assault Vest set first, and it was decent, but not great. It lacked firepower, and required Wish support to keep it healthy. Next, I tried specs, and the power for this is ridiculous and can make it a good wall breaker, but there's still enough checks for it, combined with it's lower speed, to keep it from being broken. Next, I tried mix Life Orb with Superpower, and I didn't try it very long because it was disappointing. LO makes it die so much faster, and if you don't bop Chansey the first time it switches in, or if the opponent scouts you first, then it isn't too hard to get played around. Lastly, I've tried a scarf set, and honestly it has been my favorite one so far. Hitting 393 speed isn't that fast for a scarfer, but it is still fast enough to outspeed most things. It's not uncommon for it to get surprise KOs as well against unsuspecting offensive mons that think they can KO it. Overall, I think Volcanion has the potential to be good in OU, but definitely not broken.
     
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  31. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    What are people's thoughts on re-suspecting Aegislash? I know many players don't like the idea of bringing Ubers back again, but I think showing how Mega Metagross is perfectly find in the tier sets a good precedent. Aegislash was always a controversial ban back in XY, and I think the meta has shifted enough with ORAS to warrant it being suspected again cause unlike the other previously banned mons in XY, Aegislash did have counterplay against it. I know it may be an unpopular opinion, but I still want to express it nonetheless.

    or else at least suspect Mega Sableye....
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2016
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  32. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Member

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    As much as I wanted to major changes in the metagame that is tedious for some time imo, and even with increased Dark spam and so common ground-types among the most used, Aegislash is still very powerful for the tier.
    Pseudo 720 base stats, incredible type Steel / Ghost and decent coverage.
    Resistant to Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes immunity, needs minimal support to works perfectly, and still serving as a glue for various playing styles and teams.
    Being able to perform many kinds of sets, as SubsToxic, SD, Life Orb variants and underrated Choice sets.
    Aegislash still has its signature move; King's Shield.
    King's Shield was one of the biggest reasons for their ban in XY, because it forces many situations 50/50 with very high risk (something like Pursuit currently but I do not want to drill me about it now).
    Aegislash in ORAS OU will force a lot of specific and unique movesets to combat it, as Mega Pinsir Earthquake, because Aegislash will centralize the metagame if returned.
    For more than at first glance could be considered as a new option to be used in stall, the potential for Aegislash as stallbreaker is huge, being immune to Seismic Toss and Toxic, may cause great damage with Life Orb set, Sacred Sword + Shadow Ball has perfect coverage and mixed power.

    P.S.: It is good to see this topic in activity after so many weeks.
     
  33. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Aegislash's BST is 520. Just no.
     
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  34. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    Yes the word pseudo means "false". Aegislash effectively DOES have 720 BST in most situations in battle, I don't get it.

    It was brought down on Smogon a while back and the plan of it "balancing the meta" didn't work at all, and just polarized it even further despite the fact that it had more counterplay than the XY meta. It's still absolutely insane and what -actually- warrants bringing it down other than for the heck of it?
     
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  35. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    In order to have the 720 bst it has to bank in KS, which makes it waste a turn, so I stand by what I think in saying that it is 520 bst, "unless it attacks after the opponent for the first turn"

    About it, i'm quite neutral, OU without it let a lot of mon getting viable ( Mega Garde, Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham, Jirachi etc ) so I have no clue whatsoever if it's really gonna balance the tier. I remember using it during the period test Smogon did and it still did an amazing job, so I guess it still might be too much for OU atm
     
  36. E.T.

    E.T. OHHHH YES!!! Tier Leader Channel Leader Articles Leader Tier Leader Channel Leader Articles Leader

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    The main issue I have with Aegislash is King's Shield shenanigans. King's Shield just generates too many 50/50s for an already excellent Pokemon to be healthy for the meta in my opinion. Also, before someone brings it up, simply banning King's Shield shouldn't be considered. It would be like saying we should allow Skymin without Seed Flare or Air Slash. I'd never really thought of it that way, but the pseudo 720 BST through Stance Change and King's Shield does make sense for most situations, and it is further reasoning for why Aegislash should stay banned.
     
  37. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

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    I'm going to attempt to address this re-suspect proposal both personally and on behalf of the OU council, since I know there are several arguments people have used in Aegislash's many prior suspect tests to justify it's ban and only a few of them resonate with me.

    The primary reason (among others) why Aegislash was voted to Ubers revolves around its highly centralizing effect on the metagame. Given its extremely useful Ghost/Steel typing, its 150/150 defenses and the fact that it can be glued onto nearly any team regardless of play style and still provide amazing role compression, Aegislash can effectively blanket-check the vast majority of the metagame. Re-introducing it would essentially beg the question "am I worse off simply by not using this pokemon?", which in most instances suggests that a suspect is not healthy for the metagame. Now, I fully understand that if you were to ban any common OU staple, the viability of the pokemon it checks would shift. However, the sheer quantity of offensive and defensive threats that Aegislash either checks or outright shuts down is just absurd when you actually go through the list of OU viable pokemon and consider how badly they are nerfed in a metagame where Aegislash is sure to be present on at least a majority of teams you'll face. It should also be noted that the extent to which Aegislash makes certain pokemon worse varies, as some pokemon like M-Pinsir or M-Heracross are inconvenienced by running sub-par coverage moves, while things like Jirachi, Breloom, Chansey or defensive Starmie sets are beaten outright. It just doesn't make sense from a rational choice perspective to forgo slapping Aegislash onto any team, forcing your opponent into using otherwise sub-optimal tailor-made coverage just to check the most ubiquitous pivot in the tier. If you're going to suggest that Aegislash should return, the burden of proof is less about why Aegislash is "beatable" or "not broken" and more about answering the question: why should any player not use Aegislash, and why is this level of centralization healthy or preferable to the status quo?

    Now I'd like to address the argument about Aegislash having counter-play. This has more to do with how "broken" Aegislash is or isn't, and not necessarily how "healthy" or centralizing it may be. I personally don't think this is what pushes it over the edge for OU, but there are a few valid arguments on both sides and it would be wrong for me not to include them. Given it's poor speed and weakness to common Ground, Fire and Dark type attacks, most pokemon in OU have at least one common coverage move to dent Aegislash on switch-in. Sand offense designed to support an Excadrill sweep is still quite common and reliable in OU at the moment. Pokemon such as Bisharp, Volcanion, Heatran, Charizard X/Y, offensive Garchomp + Landorus-T and the aforementioned Excadrill are a few examples of pokemon capable of OHKOing Aegislash without fearing King's Shield attack drops. Defensively, pokemon such as Mandibuzz, mixed Hippowdon, Mega Sableye or SpDef Zapdos can switch-in and usually win 1v1. For what it's worth, pursuit trapping is also becoming quite common at the moment as well.

    On the other hand, while it's not a crime to have multiple sets and available coverage moves, nearly every defensive answer to Aegislash gets shut down by SubToxic in preparation for one of it's more common sets. This is particularly salient because while you can argue that any one individual set may be balanced enough for OU, the fact that it only really needs two of it's available 4-5 sets to mess with it's checks, counters and counter-play really frees it up in a way that is unreasonably advantageous for the Aegislash user. Furthermore, the fact that Aegislash is almost never choice-locked and that its sets overlap in moves + EV spreads makes it far more difficult to scout than other notable pokemon with similar attributes. Offensive checks like Ttar, Bisharp or Landorus-T find it very difficult to actually switch into given how powerful its STAB Shadow Ball is coming off of 150SpA, and even less can stomach the "Ball + Sneak" combo that's signature to Aegislash. The fact that it's STAB is both spammable and hard-hitting really alleviates any 4MSS it might have, so in Aegislash's case it actually can use it's freed up 4th moveslot to beat an anticipated check, like HP Ice for Chomp/Lando-T or Head Smash for Zard/SpDef Talon/Zapdos/Mandibuzz, etc.

    As far as King's Shield forcing 50/50s, I really hate this argument so I'm not going to go into depth about it. Personally if there was ever a benefit to having Aegislash, it raised the IQ level required to actually win a battle since many of these "50/50" scenarios people complain about do not actually involve a 50% chance for an opponent to select one option or another. You cannot call something a 50/50 simply because you're unable or unwilling to think about the value and likelihood of your opponent's play relative to your own. With that being said, there are many scenarios, either 1v1 or on switch-in, where the Aegislash user very clearly has the advantage and freedom to predict, and who will lose far less by predicting incorrectly than their opponent, badly skewing the risk-reward aspect of this game in an unhealthy fashion that other pokemon, such as Bisharp, simply do not to nearly the same extent.

    For at least these reasons, right now the OU council does not have plans to re-suspect Aegislash. The current state of the metagame is balanced, at least for the most part, and Volcanion's impact has (imo) not yet been fully realized. Re-introducing Aegislash into OU forces you to accept the reality that you're playing in an "Aegislash metagame" for all the reasons I've listed above, and past & present input from the PO community suggests this is not a desirable outcome.

    To guide discussion further, however, the council would like to hear what the player base thinks about either a Mega Sableye suspect (as was previously mentioned), or Volcanion. This does not mean that one is currently in our plans, but rather, that we would be receptive to testing it should a majority of the community express interest in one. Please share your thoughts about Mega Sableye & Volcanion and whether you feel one or both are suspect worthy or not.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  38. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I just find the XY meta is not as representative to the ORAS mega, and although its polarizing affects may become similar, theorymonning these affects just not justify whether or not it should be suspected or not. There are good reasons on both sides, which is why I find a suspect maybe have validity at this time.
     
  39. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Member

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    Well, initially Volcanion shortly after being released was used by almost all players in server. Who they wanted to use the new joy with a powerful "Scald + Hydro Pump." Now that a few weeks have passed their use decreases for what I have seen.
    Low speed, weakness to Stealth Rock, without access to movements as Taunt, any setup or recovery, or Stealth Rock. In addition to rely heavily on support Pursuit and only few PP Steam Eruption for spamming.
    He influenced the metagame in a way that Latias Mega has become more common and more effectively used (wrongly I thought people would resort to Goodra), and the increase of Dark Moves. But this does not make Volcanion one of the dominant forces of the tier. He's a good pokémon to Spam Steam Eruption + Choice specs but is not as flexible as Heatran or other type water.
    A new check for Azumarill and Mega Sableye so I think it was a very healthy addition to the tier.
    For more than Steam Eruption + 30% burn may be insane, Scald still exists and is almost the same. Welcome to OU Volcanion.

    Mega Sableye is undoubtedly one of the biggest influences at the time of teambuilder, along with Clefable, Tornadus-T and T-Landorus imo. (These 4 would rank S for me)
    Decent bulky and only one weakness, access to Recover, Knock Off and WoW, that allows Mega Sableye neutralizes a portion of mons as Forretress, Donphan, Ferrothorn and Chansey. Even making unfeasible in tier the first two mentioned.
    Its ability to prevent Entry Hazards made it the central pillar of stall teams.
    I have used as my Sableye Mega Mega in the last three months in 95% of battles and he is a strong victory condition against low ladder and more balanced teams, but it is not an automatic victory condition and it needs to be clear.
    Press Mega Sableye is not so difficult, so that a slot is completely limited to use Fake Out and ensure their mega evolution.
    Clefable, Heatran, and a lot of water with Bulky Scald can easily weaken it. In addition to the various offensive threats that can easily 2HKO. And Mega Sableye is slow, really slow.
    Mega Sableye just requires a little more work and strategy at the time you want to play your rocks at the opponent, and personally I find it very good, because there comes a time where the players simply throw rocks and spikes hoping to win with just that, forgetting essence, effectiveness factor types and other things of the game.
    Even limiting 99% of some Pokémon, Mega Sableye is not unhealthy, various threats can easily 2HKO, and solid options to ensure the use of Stealth Rock, as Clefable, Heatran, Mold Breaker Excadrill or Azelf Skill Swap.
    Without Mega Sableye in tier would the predominance of HO team with Azelf or Skarmory lead, Bulky Offense Medicham, balance centered Ferrothorn, Starmie and Hippowdon, and some attempts to stall always required to wear Reuniclus or Slowbro to stop Mega Medicham, then ironically Mega Sableye prevent the centralization of these four possibilities and keeps the variety in the game, because as I said before, Mega Sableye is a strong influence on tier although it should not be banned.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  40. Zamrock

    Zamrock - OUTL

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    I'd like to discuss more on Volcanion.

    It's a mon that was said to believe to be "overrated" in terms of mainly it's speed and limited movepool, however after testing and messing with certain sets, mainly the Choice Specs variants, Volcanion became one of the few special powerhouses of OU. Because of this new knowledge, pokemon like M-Latias, Starmie with Toxic, Storm Drain/Water Aborb mons are used more to check this beast, leading to more variety in the tier. Choice Banded Tyranitar is being seen more as well as is one of the great partners with Volcanion to help remove half of it's checks, usually just Latis and Starmies.

    However, as it was mentioned eariler, it's speed is it's downfall, however it isn't broken in my honest opinion. The Stealth Rock weakness also has it fall behind in terms of reliability as a threat like many others including Volcarona, Zards, etc. Only 8 PP in Stream Eruption makes it very limited as a threat. It's honesstly pretty funny because even with the Water Absorb ability, any bulky water CMer can 1v1 it no problem (unless haze), like Slowbro or Suicune if you give them a chance to set-up. I do appreciate it as a great Azumarill check tho, and with moves like Earth Power to kill opposing Volcans, Sludge Bomb/Wave to not be altaria food (which is another great mon with volcanion around), and the occasion Hp grass for the waters makes this pokemon a nice addition to OU.

    Sorry for the latness of the reply, been busy, etc. In terms of suspecting, I don't really see if of any worthy of a suspect. It''s a stronger keldeo yes, but it's a slower nidoking if that makes any sense. Has access to a Hydro Pump with a burn chance with a higher sp atk than Keldeo, yet like nidoking, it posses no physical threat (unless CB boom lol).
     
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