1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

ORAS OU Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 2, 2014.

Moderators: Draciel, Finchinator, sulcata
  1. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    187
    I'd like to second what @Zamrock said. Basically, Volcanion is a hard hitting nuke (although it has trouble getting past certain defensive mons) with a decent typing and good bulk. 70 speed is terrible though, because it limits its options greatly (scarf is too slow). The SR weakness isn't helping either, since it wants to switch in and out a lot to use its bulk/fire a nuke and it doesn't have a reliable recovery move, making it hard to keep Volc healthy. I loved using it at first, but tbh I find Keldeo better now at the same things.

    On Meye: I still believe this thing shouldn't get a suspect. Sure, it does extremely well vs defensive mon, but it's really easy to pressure with a more offensive team to the point where it can't switch in anymore. 20 base speed is horrible, meaning it'll always have to take a hit before it can click Recover. Fairies/Fires are very prominent in the current meta and are great checks to MEye.
     
  2. Konzern

    Konzern Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    34
    agreeing w this nig, as for something that is "broken" is it possible that we discuss a manaphy-less meta because that thing is hella restricting on team building. i wouldn't say its broken but just super restricting when u build and thats kinda the same reason lando i was banned. I'm not comparing the 2 btw so don't take that part out of context but i feel a possible suspect on manaphy would b an interesting/good idea lol
     
    AnuncioBot likes this.
  3. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    187
    It's been almost 2 months since the last post, so let's bring this back to life. What do people think of the current metagame? What's the most prominent playstyle in your opinion, do we have suspect-worthy mons, could we revisit a ban maybe, or anything else? Just curious to see what people think about the current OU meta.
     
    Joyverse likes this.
  4. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,167
    Likes Received:
    1,939
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Nice post -- glad to see some discussion being generated!

    The current metagame is actually fairly good, in my opinion. Obviously, it's very hard, if not impossible, to obtain a solid "balance" given all of the pokemon and obstacles that get in the way of that, but this is one of the better periods throughout all of generation six, for sure. All archetypes are, more or less, viable to varying extents and while there are restrictions and there is a "limited" number of viable pokemon, teambuilding can be done in a diverse fashion, especially for players who have an open enough mind and are willing to explore the metagame well enough. Some may argue that there is a slow shift to stagnation in terms of trends and metagame development, and I'm not totally saying this isn't the case, but this might not be a bad thing given that the quality has yet to decline and we're seeing some of the most competitive ORAS OU ever after what I would say was a long transition period over the course of 8-10 months into the games' release -- also, it's worth noting that generation seven is right around the corner and a slow settling down period would not necessarily be bad.

    I do not think there are any suspect worthy pokemon. One might argue that they've wanted to see Clefable go for a long time as it's such a fat fuck and it has the mono-fairy typing with the utility movepool it possesses, one could also argue that Tornadus-T is hard to counter, Zard-X is too potent with the DD sets, Mega Medi hits too hard, etc. etc. etc. --- but nothing adds up to anywhere too close to being suspect worthy, in my opinion. However, if anyone happens to differ, I would gladly entertain their opinion on the matter!

    I do not think anything should be unbanned or retested, but if you happen to believe that something should, please voice that opinion here -- thanks.
     
    Joyverse and Funbot28 like this.
  5. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    26
    PO Trainer Name:
    Mitsuo
    I agree with Finchinator about Tornadus-T, M-Char X, M-Medicham and Clefable.
    And adding, thanks TL by ban hax items.

    Landorus-T is present in 120% of the teams, Scald is boring and Pursuit forcing several 50/50, which makes things not very fun.
    Stall is not as common as a few months, thanks to Heatran Magma Storm and Mega-Heracross.
    Mega Latias received some space on the metagame after Volcanion be released.
    Sand always common.
     
  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    91
    Ya I find the meta to be leaning slightly towards this generic bulky offense team consisting of Heatran/Rotom-W/Mega Scizor/Torn-T/Clef/Lando-T/etc... that are really easy to cover most of the big threats in the meta. I also believe that most of the archetypes are all still viable (although Stall took a huge hit with the Stag ban, but later was compensated with the Hoopa-U ban). Pursuit has literally skyrocketed in usage in the past couple of months and has become a staple move alongside other "unbalanced" moves such as Scald, Thunder Wave, and Knock Off.

    As for suspects, the meta is somewhat balanced, although I must voice how incredible the resurgence of the BoltBeam elemental punches Mega Medicham set has become and how it destroys some of its traditional checks like Slowbro, Skarmory, Lando-T, etc.. on the switchins. This actually leads to pratically every mon in the tier being 2HKOed by this monster bar niche stuff like Cresselia and Reuniclus (plus its best counter in Mega Sableye). I actually feel that a Mega Medicham suspect may be possible due to how easily it can break holes through the enemy team and the lack of preparation ur opp can make if u make the right decision.

    Anyways this is just my view on the recent meta. Hopefully SuMo changes a lot of stuff up to freshen things up.
     
  7. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    187
    One aspect I don't like about this meta is the matchup-dependency that previous gens didn't seem to have. There are currently many viable mons in OU that are often prepared for, but I feel that there are many 'odd' threats that can ruin entire teams (think Volcarona, CM MegaLati, SubCM Raikou etc). I know most of these mons are considered gimmicks, but they are surprisingly effective against a large number of teams in the current meta. Obviously, the metagame will adept to new threats, but new threats emerge faster than the old ones are covered I feel.

    Am I the only one with this view (as in, do I just suck at teambuilding), or do others share that opinion?
     
    AnuncioBot likes this.
  8. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    All generations had a lot of matchup, think gen 1: Amensia Snorlax, Amnesia Slowbro etc gen 2: snorlax counter, misdreavus block perish etc etc.

    The only big issue we find in ORAS is the fact we have too many pokemons, and in top of that Mega evolutions who centralize the metagame. Another important fact is the defensive nerf of Steel that made some Pokemon less viable that they used to be ( spe def rachi was used to counter Gengar with twave wish protect ) and with Dark buff and Knock off being a nuisance we came to the point where a lot of pokemon became quite bad in the metagame.

    Clefable is sure a hell of a good pokemon but you can counter it unless your twave luck is horrible, but overall Megagross, AVgross, Spe def Rachi, Specs Volcanion, spe def bulk up talon can deal with it.

    Tornadus-T is a very good pokemon that hit hard and has an arsenal of moves useful, namely Uturn Knock off Hurricane heat wave grass Knot Superpower Icy wind Sludge Wave and Taunt. Most of its sets are countered by Rotom-W and Mega Latias twave Roost. It is overall an excellent pokemon borderline broken but I can't see it suspected.

    Mega Medicham smashes Balanced everytime it gets in, most of the time the opponent will bring Lando-T or Clefable to try beating it, it sure is a powerhouse but it lacks one move that could possibly push it to the broken way in Play Rough. If you can't remove Mega Sableye your only chance of winning is Ice punch freezes.

    Mega Gardevoir and Mega Heracross are nukes in the tier who pack very little counters overall but in Mega Garde case AVgross and Scizor sure put a stop to it and Mega Heracross really have a bad speed but can run interesting sets such as Rest talk Knock off Pin missile or sub 3 atks to destroy stall.

    Currently the metagame is balanced despite the fact you can't find a style that wins vs all others, with gen 7 approaching we might stay in the same format because of the number of Pokemon we have.
     
  9. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    91
    I would just like to mention that while Mega Sableye is a great counter to Mega Medicham, we also have to consider that its viability has diminished quite a bit after the Stag ban and that most teams can't afford to run it due to how often it can be pressured offensively (ik I changed my view on it now...). It also still gets 3HKOed by Ice Punch and Mega Evolving it without Fake Out can be quite difficult to pull off. It is a counter to it, but it is probably the only viable one to say the least imo.
     
  10. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    With Hoopa gone, stall viability also raised js. Stall is still a good style and still a nuisance to face. If Mega eye didn't mega yet it still has prio Wisp which makes Medicham useless, so I do not think Mega eye has dropped in viability, especially in an environment where Bulky Offense and Balanced are the most played archetypes
     
  11. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    91
    Yes Stall did get better sans Hoopa-U and I did say that Mega Sab was a counter to it, but you also have to look how easily Mega Medi can demolish stall once Mega Sab is gone, and Clef is a great partner for Medi to check Mega Sab. Ik the same could be said for other pokes with checks/counters, but the point I am trying to stress it that Mega Medi legit only has this one viable mon switching in on it.
     
  12. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2012
    Messages:
    4,167
    Likes Received:
    1,939
    PO Trainer Name:
    Finchinator / Finch
    Does anyone have anything else that they believe is suspect worthy? The generation is (soon) coming to a close and now would be a good a time as ever to bring something up!
     
  13. Silph Co.

    Silph Co. New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2014
    Messages:
    14
    Likes Received:
    3
    PO Trainer Name:
    Silph Co.
    Yeah I got one:


    Ban knock off. Seriously. Why not. Tier is too lean? Ban knock off. Tier too "diverse" ? (Its not btw) ban knock off.
    I saw that quick claw got banned. I'm assuming this is wholly b/c my jellicent set was too AWESOME for yall to handle. Well if you're going to start banning legit items then you may as well ban knock off too.

    This game has been contrived to death. You may as well bite the hand that feeds and ban the big "equalizer" knock off too. I will not stop harping on this. Knock Off is nothing but ban fodder. Doo ittt already
     
  14. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    120
    Been discussed.

    I'd vouch for Meye. Been discussed plenty in the past so I'm not gonna make a lengthy post about it. Thing cock blocks many very viable mons and gives rise to match up dependency more so than any other Mon.
     
    Funbot28 likes this.
  15. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    91
    Ya I really disagree with a Knock Off suspect, the move is pretty spammable and has a low risk/high reward factor to it, but I feel the meta has adjusted to it pretty well and if anything Scald and Thunder Wave should be suspected first if we want to look into moves (although I disagree with banning moves in general).

    But for stuff that are suspectworthy now, I have to agree with Mega Sableye. I had already stated my opinion on Mega Sab numerous times in this thread before, but I will give a bullent point form of why it should be looked into:
    • Creates unfair and sometimes unwinable matchups against Stall due to it being amazing at blocking hazards.
    • Its combination of typing, stats and its ability make it extremely difficult to take down without a Fairy-type.
    • When paired with Dugtrio, it could legit be a nightmare for teams to face due to Duggy being able to trap and KO wallbreakers that could be a trouble for stall such as CB Tyranitar, Heatran, and a weakened Clefable.
    Besides Mega Sab, maybe Mega Medicham could possibly be looked into as well, but I do not have a strong sentiment towards this (however I would like to state that if Mega Sab would get potentially banned, Mega Medicham would become infinitely better as it loses it only true counter).
     
  16. Konzern

    Konzern Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2016
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    34
    banning msab means fighting types become even my prominent and lose their checks. if we ban msab then mega medi becomes a huge force and even if he ban medi you have pokemon like mega gallade which can takes its place while having very few checks
     
  17. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    120
    That's no Argument.
    Mcham has been around since XY. Plenty faster mons to outspeed and kill it, and is basically an inferior MLopunny when it comes to being a hit and run mon.

    If Gallade becomes a force to reckon, and to good post MEye ban then we ban it too.

    There's no point in keeping one broken mon to check another. That's what leads to a stale cancerous metagame.
     
  18. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    Medicham can be countered by: Mega Sableye, Reuniclus, Clefable pretty correctly.

    Mega Sableye is fine I think, it's a good mon but only gets outstanding when paired with Chansey and other stall mons, maybe including Talonflame

    Mega Medicham gets a kill vs balance nearly everytime it gets in, it has a raw power that Mega Lopunny can dream of having, and also has ways of dealing with some fairy mons through Bullet punch if really needed ( for Mega Diancie ). The only thing it lacks is scrappy but I don't think Lop is overall better, I personally feel like Medicham is way better in the current meta.

    I wouldn't ban anything, the tier looks fine as it is now, there is no dominant playstyle that makes others bad so I think gen 6 is pretty much over in the good way.
     
    Oh So Penspin likes this.
  19. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    91
    Gonna need to refute this. I honestly feel Mega Sableye stall when paired with Dugtrio honestly creates some unfavourable and sometimes unbeatable match ups due to teams often relying on wallbrealers such as CB Tyranitar and Stallbreaker Heatran to break these teams. This basically allows Dugtrio to be able to trap and KO these mons easily and really makes it difficult for ur opponent to break the stall team afterwards. I feel this creates too much unwinnable match ups when facing stall.

    people might say "then just ban Dugtrio/Arena Trap" however I really don't feel this is the issue here when Mega Sab just cockblocks all incoming hazards which is why wallbreakers like Tyranitar and Tran are needed to be used just to break these team without hazard damage helping them and thus why Dugtrio can just KO those mons easily and just can just help stall win too easily at times.
     
  20. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    Are you actually talking of that dumb stall that gets 6-0'ed by scarf driller? Honestly, trap stall was broken when Manaphy was one of the best stallbreaker, during Goth meta, Heatran and Ttar were never stallbreaker, unless your heatran is magma storm, which is a okay way of beating chansey, but seriously, you don't need heatran to beat stall whatsoever, there is a lot of usable mons that don't fear of being trapped to beat stall ( namely Talon, Togekiss and even Breloom sometimes)
     
  21. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    91
    I will reference the team here so people don't get lost :
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Sableye @ Sablenite
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 112 Def / 144 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Knock Off
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    - Foul Play

    Chansey @ Eviolite
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Toxic
    - Soft-Boiled
    - Seismic Toss
    - Heal Bell

    Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 168 Def / 92 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Spore
    - Giga Drain
    - Clear Smog
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Skarmory @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Iron Head
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Defog

    Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Arena Trap
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    IVs: 20 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpD
    - Earthquake
    - Reversal
    - Aerial Ace
    - Screech

    Quagsire @ Leftovers
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    - Scald
    - Recover
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic

    I will give you that Togekiss is a pretty good answer to this team if u get lucky with flinch hax, however how does Talon or Breloom win?

    252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Quagsire: 115-136 (29.1 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +4 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 188-222 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

    Scarf Driller is a pretty subpar set unless used on that Azelf HO team which this stall team can handle pretty well in general so yeah... (although...)

    252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 166-196 (38.5 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    252 Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 112 Def Mega Sableye: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
  22. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    120
    Don't have access to PC and very lazy atm.
    A better calc would be 252+ Atk Banded Taloname Brave Bird against Quag.

    That said, Meye worms well with anything that can take on fairy moves. Be it Heatran, Exca, Talon or Jirachi. The list goes on.
     
  23. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    Was actually thinking of this http://pokemonshowdownteams.com/ou-team-31-ricky117-mega-sableye/
    Also whenever Amoonguss is gone it's pretty much over with Breloom? Anyway, I disgress, this team has a lot of issues, how do you beat talon taunt wisp, how do you beat sub cm keldeo ( amoonguss will lose if it comes to late), how do you beat volcanion once you remove chansey etc. You do realize that every member of the team is dependant of the other so it gets a viability. Dugtrio is a niche mon to use in OU, but it pairs well with Sableye/Talon, but that doesn't mean it wins most of the matchups, whenever you face a Mold Breaker driller rocks+ mag cause apparently people play rocky skarm instead of shed shell, you can apply too much offensive pressure on these type of teams. I stand by my point and say nothing is suspect worthy
     
  24. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    120
    You only get 6 mons per team. Mons being very dependent on each other to cover up the matchup dependency is wear ORAS is all about. It's only standard and hyper offense playstyles where this doesn't apply. Anything from Balance to stall has to strictly stick to this principle in order to be viable.
     
  25. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    91
    Yes of course specific mons with specific sets or a combination of mons could beat the team like any other team in ORAS due to matchup being such a huge factor this gen. However, as Haze Victory had stated, you get only 6 mons per team and a bulky offense/ balance team usually carries max 2-3 wallbreakers/stallbreakers. Theroymonning on whether or not certain elements of the team is eliminated in order to win really is not gonna get us anywhere when the real issue is that inherently, these type of trap stall build put a huge strain in the teambuilding phase.
     
  26. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    26
    PO Trainer Name:
    Mitsuo
    Knock Off, Scald and Thunder Wave are annoying moves. But there is nothing that can be done, just expect an improvement in the Sun and Moon mechanism.

    Mega Medicham is extremely difficult to switch, your best counters are UU as Cresselia, Reuniclus and Doublade, which are easily pressured by a Dark mon with Pursuit. With only Mega Sableye as solid answer. Mega Medicham is the closest thing we have a Hoopa-U.

    Dugtrio is a cancer of the tier. Even if this mole is anemic, Arena Trap has a very wide range of options to remove without fail, acting as a great support.
    This is basically a Gothitelle. Dugtrio excellent speed and decent movepool, removes several mon, further worsening the matchup problem in the tier. It removes without counterplay (Shed Shell is very bad and is not reliable, since Knock Off is always present).
    Eject Button Bulky Water + Dugtrio is real, easily gaining momentum to capture Heatran and other mon.

    Pursuit follows the same path as Arena Trap, even if with a smaller range.
    The fact Colbur Berry have become popular is proof of that.
    Just remove Latios with Tyranitar and easily use Keldeo / Charizard Y to sweep any opponent without secure exchanges.
    Or risk dangerous Double Switches, plus a 50/50 switch or stay.

    Trapper are unhealthy in a metagame where matchup is absurdly decisive.

    Manaphy is 99% automatic win against balanced and stall.
     
    Joyverse likes this.
  27. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    120
    Please guys. It's been discussed enough times. Keeping one broken mon to check another is not happening.
    If MCham is broken and MEye is it's only check then they both go.
    Feel free to argue.
     
  28. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    1,262
    Likes Received:
    429
    Even though I don't really care too much anymore, I've been saying for probably a good year and a half now, Mega Sableye is probably one of the stupidest things that is still in OU. Not really in the sense that you can't beat it, but that you have to directly work around it, in order to hinder what it does. It's basically have Fairy type (or Fairy type coverage on something) or a set that works around it via Substitute + Stat Boosting, or making forceful attempts to break it through pure breakers. While I'm generally all for this in terms of battling and all being a general fair game, it's ability to create a synergy with several other Pokemon in a core that covers those strategies has in my opinion always left the metagame to deal with the cancerous behemoth that is Mega Sableye in very specific ways.


    There's a lot that works in M-Sableye's favor.

    - Singular weakness to only Fairy type moves and Scrappy Fighting type moves (Hi M-LOPUNNY) highlights its bulk in that most things deal 3HKO level of damage output against it.
    - Isn't eating Toxic or non Scald burns post Mega, so hoping that Scald does indeed burn so you can force it to use more Recovers or switch out to something else.
    - Supports the team against general hazard setters, as most relatively can only do so much.
    - It's bulk basically requires a breaker (Specs/Banded) or Stat Boosters, which have to be set up before hand or risk WoW burns unless they carry Substitute/Lum Berry to do enough damage to kill it.
    - Carrying Calm Mind makes it more difficult for the Special attackers to beat it, if it's allowed the free chance to set up once.
    - Possibility of running Foul Play or Knock Off can easily punish set up sweepers, and or hinder those requiring Choice Items, LO, taking away lefties.

    Conwise:
    - Limited ability to switch in. Despite being awesome against things 1 on 1, it just can't switch in at a leisure. However teams that involve it never really need it to switch in except against certain things such as Hazard setters and Fighting moves.
    - Running a pretty straight forward set, it's not too difficult to know how to work around it, though you may have to give up a Pokemon to burn status to get a switch in to something that will force it out.

    It's not something that when you look at, it's not necessarily hard to fight against, but given that it has partners that cover up so many common threats when all are put together, it makes M-Sableye very difficult to play against for the majority of teams in OU, considering that it can use your own hazards against you, and unlike the other M-Bounce users, it's not frail enough they have to worry about dying just by switching in to most of the setters. Beating M-Sableye/M-Sableye team archetypes basically happens in the teambuilder and dedicating something to be able to cover it if the problem arises to your team, where as something might be a naturally better fit for the team.

    Just being a guy who is looking in anymore, the fact it's very efficient at what it does, and can decently overcome answers to it, forcing you to run something to keep it in check or purely to beat the combination of partners it creates because M-Sableye is the pokemon that anchors the style down mostly directing the choices you make in a match just to beat it. It's more than worthy of having a suspect, even if after all is said and done that it may not end up banned, it's something that I'd say is top priority to having a discussion about.
     
    Haze Victory and Funbot28 like this.
  29. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,409
    Likes Received:
    145
    The way I see it, there's little to no harm in at least suspecting Mega Sableye. It'll give you guys something more to argue about for the next six weeks til SuMo are out, and we'll see if anything becomes unmanageable with it gone. I reckon physical powerhouses like Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross are somewhat likely.
     
    Haze Victory likes this.
  30. Lameflame

    Lameflame Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    83
    Likes Received:
    139
    PO Trainer Name:
    Sylar / Lameflame
    I think the real issue regarding Mega Sableye and its ban-worthiness or not has less to do with the pokemon itself and more to do with the type of strategies it promotes and the metagame that develops as a result.

    When people try and argue that Mega Sableye should be banned, they tend to justify their position by explaining that it does its job reliably well, over-centralizes stall, restricts traditional counter-play to defensive teams, has usable bulk, shuts down hazard setters and forms difficult cores to break. In all honesty, and this is just my perspective, these are not reasons to ban a pokemon, or at least not Sableye in this case.

    Performing a task to a high level of reliability simply means that Sableye is an S-tier threat in ORAS OU, and there is nothing inherently wrong with that. Sableye does restrict traditional methods of counter-play against defensive teams by generally winning the hazard game and shutting down many otherwise viable wallbreakers, but the fact that it blocks hazards and the fact that Stall inevitably needed a tool to blanket-cover ORAS's many offensive threats to stay relevant aren't banworthy traits either. After all, stall is, always was and always will be a match-up based play style to some extent, because the entire logic of the play style implies that it will try to cover as many threats as possible to wear the opponent down. I don't think Sableye exacerbates this to an unhealthy extent, but rather it simply requires players to prepare for it through a variety of both mega and non-mega offensive/lure sets to muscle through it (e.g. SD Chomp, Dual Dance Landorus-T, SpDef Gliscor, certain Breloom sets, sub DD Gyara, Togekiss, etc.) I could list many more, including hard counters such as Mega Diancie and Charizard X, but the point should be made already that Sableye is simply forcing players to adapt to stall by using otherwise viable, non-niche sets and breakers over others, that hazards aren't the only way to win, and that this will always occur when you're talking about a centralizing S-tier force such as Sableye. The fact that it highly centralizes stall as a play style is I guess somewhat unfortunate, because on Showdown's Sableye suspect ladder many months ago I witnessed some incredibly innovative stall builds utilizing Mega Slowbro, Mega Altaria and fully defensive Scizor that functioned well imo. Nevertheless, if players choose to use Sableye as their mega of choice extremely frequently, there is nothing about their decision to do so that makes Sableye broken. Players have the right to choose their perceived best options to win, and we aren't talking about Aegislash-level centralization that affects the entire tier in almost every match-up, but rather just one play style in a more limited scope.

    Now, the final point I listed about Sableye forming incredibly solid cores with common pokemon found on Stall actually does have some merit as a pro-ban argument, and it is really up to your interpretation as a player if it does so to an extent that makes stall truly unbeatable (not just annoying, I hate it too but let's still be fair here). Let's take the Sableye + Gothitelle core as the standard and work our way down. The ease with which Gothitelle could trap virtually every relevant stallbreaker that wasn't running a niche item/set in conjunction with Sableye already heavily restricting counter-play was deemed broken, and rightly so. Running Shed Shell on Manaphy or Togekiss isn't "adapting to stall" or a natural evolution of a metagame, but rather a desperate response to a strategy with such limited options that players essentially lose autonomy over the game if they don't run those specific answers. Yeah, unhealthy. But now it gets tricky, because what about Sableye + Dugtrio? Dugtrio is, after all, another trapper who is neither as universally effective nor as useful as Gothitelle, but who still traps a substantial portion of the metagame and an even wider pool of viable stallbreakers. Is this okay? We did ban Shadow Tag as a whole, not just Gothitelle, as Gothita and Gothorita still had trapping capabilities even though the individual pokemon themselves are complete garbage, frail and otherwise lacking merit to belong in the tier. What about Sableye + Shedinja? Shedinja is the epitome of "limited options", and while the knee-jerk response is "just use hazards/weather/the ladder is bad lol", the standard ShedStall team is noticeably even more match-up reliant than typical stall builds and force the player into using sets that may not be niche, like Shed Shell Manaphy, but highly specialized, like Bulk Up/Stallbreaker Talonflame or other Mega wallbreakers. Not having the tools to break Shedinja as well as break the rest of the Wonder Trio means you cannot win, regardless of how skillful a player you are. Is that level of specificity to break a defensive core okay? What about simply Sableye + Skarmory, who between the two of them shut down every single common hazard setter except for realistically Heatran and certain Clefable sets? Both pokemon are already common, good against stall and running standard-ish sets, but you still have very restricted options for counter-play and are at a disadvantage from the outset. There's also the very real strain in teambuilding in trying to prepare for every variant of Sableye stall, as one might lose to Heracross, another crumbles against Diancie, and so on -- is that level of restrictiveness okay, or should players just bring blanket answers to most variants and accept a loss if they don't?

    Honestly, I don't think there's a correct answer to the questions I posed. It should be, and ultimately will be up to the community to decide whether or not Mega Sableye should stay or go, and for what reasons they see fit. What I do know, however, is that very few people were complaining about Sableye when it was spammed on a common (Tele team?) with Sableye/SpDefTalon/Hippo/Starmie/Ferro/Clef. There are other variations too, but my point being: Sableye seemed okay on semi-stall. I think I do speak for most people when I say that bulky offense and Sableye fat-balance teams are unquestionably beatable, reasonable and viable in the current metagame. No one complained about the CM/Snarl sets back in the dark ages when they were relevant. Sableye is not really found on HO teams, and conversely, it doesn't realistically have the bulk in practice to check every one of the many pokemon it is actually supposed to check -- one wrong play, one mis-predicted U-turn, etc. can cost you precious momentum as well as HP on a pokemon that is already overloaded.

    So with all of that being said, I have to admit that I did vote to ban Mega Sableye when it was on the chopping block on Showdown, and while I'd be okay with it staying in the tier if that's the outcome people prefer, I would lean towards banning it again should it be suspected.

    The reason for this is based on what I said at the outset -- that it essentially promotes the existence of strategies that are unhealthy for the metagame, even if Mega Sableye itself is not unhealthy. I can accept the fact that on certain Sableye stall builds, I simply have to play smarter to break the defensive core more than perhaps a traditional balance/bulky core. I can accept the fact that stall will and should continue to exist, and that it is inherently a match-up based play style that I need to prepare for in teambuilding. I fully accept the fact that Sableye isn't anywhere near broken or unhealthy outside of certain specific builds, and that it would shake up the tier quite a bit just before it is supposed to (at least formally) come to a close by removing a reliable hazard blocker and check to common wallbreakers. I'm also by no means saying that Stall is unbeatable, or even that it is good. Rather, what I think the metagame should reject are team archetypes that win by virtue of me not bringing the 1-3 potential answers to it from the outset, and losing pretty much automatically as a result. This is less comparable to other gimmicky, auto-pilot strategies like ScoliPass Speed + Sub Passing, since I find these teams are very predictable, formulaic and handled by intelligent play from common pokemon + sets, and more analogous to full baton pass chains where you essentially concede the game without like Taunt Thundurus-i or Mold Breaker Taunt Mega Gyara, etc. If the community thinks that this level of match-up is healthy then I guess I'll listen, but I have yet to hear an argument as to why it is so I'm going to lean ban until I hear otherwise.

    Also, Mega Medicham isn't broken, hasn't been since XY and has many viable checks outside of Mega Sableye. I get that a major wallbreaker losing a hard counter makes some people uncomfortable, but right now everything being espoused feels like theorymon and I'm not biting.
     
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2016
  31. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    120
    Oh look at how the discussion died out. Not like the TL's even bother considering this.
     
  32. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike Tier Leader Tour Director Tier Leader Tour Director

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2014
    Messages:
    673
    Likes Received:
    506
    PO Trainer Name:
    TraceofLife
    "oh look i bumped this thread without any actual post"

    i honestly don't think anything should be suspected, the meta is fine as it is and ORAS is ending soon anyway
     
  33. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    120
    Perfect reason. Hail the meta.

    Not to be a troll, but this is going to get us places. New players give past gen ORAS a try and gasp at how they missed one of the most balanced metas so far.
     
  34. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,692
    Likes Received:
    552
    To be entirely fair this is the tail end of the generation. Other than "fixing" and fine tuning some of the lower tiers there really isn't much to be done.

    That and the tier leader in question probably thinks the OU meta is fine as it is.
     
  35. snaga

    snaga .

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    442
    Likes Received:
    535
    PO Trainer Name:
    snaga
    the last message before your pitiful post was one of the council members responding to a post about the suspects that were brought up. What are the tier leaders suppose to do? Respond to non- existant suspect requests? The meta has roughly a month left which is arguably not even enough time for discussion + (maybe) an eventual suspect test. At least you got the attention you were seeking.​
     
  36. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,525
    Likes Received:
    1,360
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    To be fair, nothing disallows you from doing suspect now, because it would allow you for tours such as POCL and POWC to have a better tier if something is completely broken.

    Mega Sableye is suspect to a lot of controversy, many people feel like it should be banned and some others feel like it's ok.

    At least the council does exist still, even though I don't know if they're really active. Unlike side tiers that literally change each gen, those tiers are still notable for our competitive aspect and I believe it's ok to ban/unban something from a past gen, if the playerbase wants it to. For example, unban Mold Breaker Driller for gen 5 would be beneficial even now, and we've seen this when players asked to pick PS BW2 OU instead of PO's. Ending a gen should not be a reason why we shouldn't suspect anything. If the tier is stable that's another story

    So why not a Sableye suspect? ( i don't care if it leaves, it's a dumb pokemon and stall is just annoying either way, but still breakable with good mons such as Sub CM Keldeo, NP Togekiss etc)
     
    Funbot28, Joyverse, Jethalal and 2 others like this.
  37. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    231
    Likes Received:
    91
    Ya I agree with the Mega Sableye suspect notion if we decide to keep suspecting stuff now. It's pretty evident that Mega Sab makes stall really powerful and it really puts a strain on team building in order to counter it. All my other arguments are all in this thread so won't repeat myself.
     
  38. panda dog

    panda dog #single

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    3
    Why does Sableye-M deserve a ban? I mean, is obviously powerful and probably is the best mon in OU paired with clef but... I don't think is THAT overpowered to be banned... I mean, in every tier there are always some moons that are more powerful that others, that's the point on rating them. Pokemon is not a game we can be 100% succesful playing what we want just by skill, to be succesful in a complex game like this you just have to be amazingly good with the archetype of team you want or just be good or rreally good with what is in the meta.

    is just my opinion but sadly, that's how the game works for me. Maybe i didn't understand the point of the argument properly but well,just wanted to write this hehe <3
     
  39. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Member

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    46
    Likes Received:
    26
    PO Trainer Name:
    Mitsuo
    Even Pokémon as M-Sableye and Clefable are restrictive, they have answers in the metagame and can be handled.
    In the current metagame where threats are defined and pre-determined cores, Dugtrio resurfaces from oblivion as a new Gothitelle.
    Its wide range of options to remove provides a very favorable support for multiple teammates.
    His bulky should not be considered here, because after all he does not need defenses to do their job. Even if it is dependent on Focus Sash, it is effective against 15-20 mons popular in the layer and can break it easily, is not competitive or funny.
    I do not believe that missing less than a month to be viable suspect something, in a generation that is summed up in - defeat a broken thing with another broken thing -.
    But if the metagame ORAS continue to develop after Sun and Moon, Dugtrio deserves a suspect.
     
  40. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,409
    Likes Received:
    145
    ^I'd say it's probably Arena Trap that's your problem rather than Dugtrio. I mean... Trapinch will suffer, I guess? But other than that, Dugtrio is in no way overpowered on its own.

    As for the M-Sableye thing, is it just out of sheer 'dun wanna' that's stopping a suspect? I get that there's less than a month to go, and it won't gain a lot of ground. But at the very least, it's worth a shot. See how the tier is without Mega Sableye, and decide if it's a better tier or not. It certainly fits two criteria (at least) for banning, namely the restriction of teambuilding, and being really fucking difficult to handle. If you haven't got a Fairy, a nuke, or a setup mon that doesn't care about being burned, it's gonna cause a lot of trouble.
     
Moderators: Draciel, Finchinator, sulcata