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Suspect Discussion: Beedrillite [Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Weavile, Nov 10, 2014.

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  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the impact of Mega Beedrill on the ORAS NU metagame.
    Discuss potential checks and counters to Beedrill, or explain why mentioned checks/counters are ineffective or otherwise inappropriate.
    Post based on experience, not theorymon.
    Make clear if you want Mega Beedrill to remain in the ORAS NU metagame or to be banned.
    Arguments including "it will move up by usage soon anyway" will be deleted and probably infracted. You were warned.

    Happy suspecting n_n
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2014
  2. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    Beedrill has the attack and speed stats to make it banworthy straight off the bat.

    150 attack/145 speed.
    145 speed lets it outspeed anything it damn well pleases, anything short of mega sceptile (which for some reason only speed ties) gets outsped unless it runs scarf, however I'm willing to bet 145 speed outspeeds several scarfers, as well.

    Stats/abilties etc
    150 attack is impressive as a number, however it is without an item such as choice band or life orb, which would usually be a problem. However, beedrill has adaptability which doubles the power of all its stab moves, as opposed to the usual 1.5 multiplier, which is better than a non adaptability life orb hit (1*1.5*1.3=1.95 total multiplier), and only marginally weaker than a choice band (1*1.5*1.5=2.25 total multiplier). This lets beedrill score 2HKOs on just about anything that doesn't resist both its stabs.

    Anti ban arguement rebuttal (skip this i guess, it's just ranting about how u turn escapes checks and does damage)
    The main argument to see it stay would be its frailty, however given its speed, access to U-Turn which allows it to deal damage while simultaneously evading poses a great issue there. Beedrill will outspeed anything but a scarfer, then u turn out for one of the five members of its team to take the hit while dealing damage to whatever the hell is out in the field. Need to switch beedrill in? Slow U-Turn/Volt Switch, after a KO, predicted or forced switch, the options are lengthy, and this is a problem that every frail offensive pokemon suffers from. If you as me, beedrill may suffer less, as it's typing gives it resistances to fighting, grass, poison among other types which lets it switch into the likes of vileplume, amoongus etc. easily. In any case, I'd say anything short of a priority move will fail to hit beedrill before it U-Turns out (and a scarfer, but those have the same longevity issues that beedril does, as well as being hopeless at switching in directly).

    Discussing ways to beat beedrill
    Ok, so lets say priority is the most common thing on the planet right now (it's not), the main moves to consider in our tier would be suckerpunch, mach punch and aqua jet. Mach punch is quad resisted, so let's rule that out. Aqua jet is seen pretty much exclusively on feraligatr, who doesn't see too much usage (and often runs LO, lum etc which limits it durability and switch in opportunities, once again not hard to wear down and beat. Suckerpunch is the best bet, being both neutral, powerful (which makes up for the fact that its rarely STABed) and having a fairly large distribution and probably the bulkiest and most durable users out of any of the priority moves listed.

    Let's calc, shall we? For the following, I'm going to assume beedrill hasn't just decided to spam U-Turn and gotten away from the priority user as they switched in. I'll also assume that somehow beedrill has always used the most resisted/weakest of its stabs and or knock off when it attacks.

    (using showdown's calc and since mega beedrill isnt available in any damage calcs yet, i've just altered abomasnow's stats, typing and ability to match.)
    Calcs are with jolly beedrill to give the checks a sporting chance defensively.

    Feraligatr
    Max HP/Max attack Gatr
    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 194-230 (51.8 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -This gatr can't switch in more than once, straight off the bat. Beedrill won't mind switching out once and coming back another turn to finish things. Not to mention no one runs max hp on Gatr.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 165-195 (60.8 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Let's say the beedrill user is a moron and they stay in, or they predict it not having A jet for whatever reason but it actually does. Let's also assume this is max attack, adamant, life orbed feraligatr. And let's assume beedrill runs no HP or defense. Now let's also assume rocks are on beedrill's side of the feild, and it has taken damage once. It still lives and ends up KOing gatr.

    Kangaskhan
    Same premise as before, random max HP kanga (considering most run speed/attack spreads) to give it the best shot at surviving
    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 234-276 (56.5 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Once again, a 2HKO without any prior damage needed, Beedrill won't mind switching out once and KOing it later. For a check, this scenario is pretty bad straight off the bat.

    Now let's have an adamant, max attack, life orbed kangaskhan's retaliation.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 204-240 (75.2 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Ok, with no defensive investment on beedrill, and with rocks down suckerpunch is an OHKO, if rocks aren't down then kanga can use fake out as well.

    (252+ Atk Life Orb Kangaskhan Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 153-181 (56.4 - 66.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)

    Looking better than feraligatr, but it can still only switch in once. Also, aside from the fact I'm pretty sure no one runs max HP life orb kanga, i think the majority run jolly not adamant. Better, but still bad as a check.

    For the record, a more normal LO kanga takes
    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 234-276 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    If it's attacked once or twice before, and or rocks are in play, it may not even survive the switch in.

    It should be noted that beedrill is free to switch out from the two pokemon above and KO them on the next switch in.

    Skuntank
    Probably the best bet, as he has stab suckerpunch and resists at least one stab move.

    252+ Atk Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Abomasnow: 232-274 (85.6 - 101.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    -Ok, assuming people actually run max attack adamant, it has a chance to OHKO beedrill with suckerpunch with no rocks, albeit a low chance. However, with rocks this is garanteed. But I don't really remember the last time I've seen a max attack adamant skuntank. For the record, life orb skuntank guarantees the OHKO without rocks.

    Now, since it's a check it should be able to switch in. If it cant then we have to assume beedrill has scored a KO and this is a revenge kill. Which means beedrill has already done a fair bit of damage.

    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 135-159 (32.9 - 38.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO
    -Ok, so you're running max attack adamant skuntank, and also running max HP and approximately 0 speed, with that crazy, best case scenario set up, let us continue. Also, no rocks are in play for the skuntank user, so you come in at 100%. Let's assume they had to poison jab, or had no reason to use x scissor instead. Congratz, 32.9% isnt too big of a price to pay for switching in. You can just pursuit as it tries to switch out, right? Not really, I'll explain why in the next calc.

    But lets say, in the very plausible scenario that beedrill uses x scissor instead.
    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Skuntank: 270-318 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Yeah, not such and easy switch in. As a matter of fact, Poison Jab followed by one of these has a solid chance to 2HKO, especially with rocks or any prior damage. This pretty much forces you to suckerpunch. At best it's a mind game, where they are almost garranteed to score a KO, and you have a 12.5% chance to score a KO even if you predict correctly.

    Yeah. The calcs say it all.

    Let's say you plan to use a scarfer instead of priority, good luck living even two resisted hits (if you resist the attacks to begin with), or if you happen to switch into knock off. Good luck with that. If you say they come in after a KO, well then beedrill has already done its job, and can switch out and do it again later knowing it gets a KO with each switch in.

    Ok, since it's established the checks are pretty flimsy, how about the counters?

    Bronzong is neutral to x scissor, and weak to knock off, so he gets crossed off the list.
    Other steel types?

    Steelix.
    Since beedrill's main attack vs it will be knock off, regular steelix's advantage of lefties is obselete, so lets assume best case scenario and say steelix is mega, so it takes less damage from knock off and doesnt care about the item loss which doesnt happen. The spread is working off the minimum amount of bulk I can imagine steelix running, since speed, satk are a lost cause and i'm trying to minimize defense investment which leaves HP/spdef to invest in aside from maxing out attack or w/e.

    (calc uses regular steelix with stats altered to fit mega steelix)

    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Steelix: 47-56 (13.2 - 15.8%) -- possible 7HKO

    Ok. 7HKO. Perfect counter. Except for the fact it lacks any and all recovery. However, he does set SR which limits mega beedrill. I'll go ahead and say Steelix has beedrill under it's thumb.

    Other answers?

    Carbink resists once stab, neutral to the other
    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 53-63 (17.4 - 20.7%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 106-126 (34.8 - 41.4%) -- 70.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    It also has no recovery, and it a fair bit more vulnerable to being KOed. It can retaliate with a rock stab but personally I don't think its a good counter, and its a horrible mon overall.

    Regirock
    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 84-100 (23 - 27.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    With that sky high defense, access to SR and probably the greatest durability out of any of the counters(drain punch, lefties; though lefties can be knock offed.), I'd say regirock is the best bet. Still, with rocks and a single knock off he becomes very easy to wear down as drain punch wont be healing much coming off uninvested attack.

    With what i think is a more realistic physical defense investment
    252 Atk Adaptability Abomasnow X-Scissor vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Regirock: 106-126 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    regirock is fairly vulnerable to being KOed, after one switch in to x scissor or knock off, it can be 2HKOed the next time it comes in (assuming rocks hit it each time it switches in, which isnt unrealistic and has to be factored in for it to be considered a counter)

    I think that goes to show that it's counters also have their fair share of troubles with either lack of recovery, sucking or being potentially pushed into KO range fairly easily. I think beedrill should go.

    #BrickWallofText
     
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  3. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Mega Beedrill
    It's strong as shit, it's fast as shit and it has the one move that makes it really unhealthy for the tier.
    With a 145 speed tier that out speeds basically everything when Adamant (only missing out on Jolteon, Accelgor and of course, shit like Ninjask and Electrode), and a 150 attack stat, and further still, adaptability. You might think it would make a good sweeper or something. But to be honest as a raw sweeper it's not particularly amazing. It's super frail, so the only way to get boosts is Fell Stinger, because good luck getting an SD off with this thing, Fell Stinger is unreliable and weak, it also takes up a move slot. Probably the one you had for Protect, which Beedrill needs to get itself a turn for Mega Evolution since its normal form is fairly slow.

    So what does make Mega Beedrill so threatening? Well folks, it's U-Turn. But this isn't just any U-Turn friends. This is a U-Turn that's a good 20% or so stronger than +1 Scarf Genesect's U-Turn. With the ability out outspeed most things you'll ever come across and the added ability to OHKO a significant number of them with U-Turn, Beedrill gains the ability to deal large chunks of completely risk-free damage. Things like Steelix can easily soak up U-Turns, but that person is obviously going to be running something to take on Steelix, which then gets in for free off of the U-Turn. This means that Steelix can't set up Rocks either, since it'll likely be scared out by a Milotic or something else that can easily threaten it. U-Turn simply always gives the advantage to the Beedrill user. Now someone is going to read that and say "well ban Uxie then, it gets U-Turn". The factor at play here is that Beedrill's U-Turn is going to OHKO a significant portion of Pokémon, even more after a little damage. Staying in and forcing the mon coming in to take a big chunk of damage like you can with Uxie isn't going to work with Beedrill.

    Trak went over Priority, and how, while Beedrill is frail, it's not so frail as to lose to single priority attacks. Except for things like Spiritomb Sucker Punches.

    Honestly I don't see need for Beedrill to even run moves beyond Protect and U-Turn, but just because it can, your U-Turn resists are minimised by its ability to decimate Fairies with Poison Jab, and it can Knock Off if you really want to annoy a switch in with marvelous inefficiency as opposed to just U-Turning on it and gaining more advantage. But I guess it's nice for killing ghosts from neutral positions.
     
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  4. Trakyan

    Trakyan Member

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    I just want to say that you don't need protect. There is plenty in NU that is slower than it (it's checks/counters included) which it can megavolve on and u turn out. And getting SD up is possible, esp on things like vileplume etc where beedrill resists the attacks, or on a forced switch. When it sets up it is killer.
    Anyways, as a raw sweeper I have to agree it does miss out on some OHKOs (while scoring quite of few OHKOs on some not super bulky mons) but that isnt really an issue, as beedrill prefers spamming u turn anyway.
     
  5. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Put this off long enough, because I couldn't dig up the notes I made on Beedrill.

    First off, those stats. Wow. 145 Speed, and 150 Attack. When Adamant, it has the power of a Banded Adamant base 84. Power in likeness to Talonflame.
    When Jolly, it outspeeds pretty much every mon except scarfers above base 80 and Electrode/Ninjask, and still hits like a truck.

    If that isn't a scary thought, what is very scary is the fact that anything you bring in to bring this beast down, is just bounced off of by U-Turn. Any counter you can possibly bring in faces another member of the team, which is no fun. What resists U-Turn? Ghost, Steel, Poison, Fire, Fighting, Flying and Fairy. Quite a few types, although Ghost is hit by Knock Off (a rather annoying move) and Steel, Poison and Fire are hit by Drill Run. To top it off, bulky fairies are torn apart by Poison Jab. This leaves Fighting Type and Flying Types. Problem is, Beedrill will just U-Turn out, or hit 'em with a neutral Adaptability Poison Jab.

    While its offensive capabilities are amazing, a lack of bulk isn't the best. While resisting mach punch 4x, it is still neutral to fake out, bullet punch, quick attack, extreme speed and sucker punch.

    So, while its pretty much been shown that pretty much nothing can switch in on it safely, there are a few 1v1 scenarios where Meg Beedrill may not come out on top.

    252 Atk Primeape Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 378-446 (139.4 - 164.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Primeape Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 284-336 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    But if it misses:
    252+ Atk Adaptability Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 320-378 (118 - 139.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 428-504 (157.9 - 185.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    But if Sawk happens to miss:
    252+ Atk Adaptability Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 272-320 (93.1 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

    252 Atk Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 308-366 (113.6 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Beedrill: 522-614 (192.6 - 226.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Skuntank Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 298-352 (109.9 - 129.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 235-278 (86.7 - 102.5%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    Only a small chance, and uncommon to see adamant.
    252+ Atk Adaptability Beedrill U-turn vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ambipom: 262-310 (90 - 106.5%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    And if it fails to KO, this and life orb damage will bring ambi down.

    252+ Atk Fletchinder Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 542-642 (200 - 236.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 296-348 (109.2 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Beedrill Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 90-108 (21.7 - 26%) -- 4.4% chance to 4HKO
    0 Atk Rhydon Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 414-492 (152.7 - 181.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Beedrill Drill Run vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Golem: 170-202 (56.2 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Golem Rock Blast (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Beedrill: 510-612 (188.1 - 225.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    But getting these in is hard, and no Mega Beedrill in its right mind will stay in on any of these, it can just switch out on the faster ones and u-turn away from the slower, non priority ones.

    The best mons to use would probably be Zoroark, Fletchinder and Rhydon.

    Fletchinder cannot switch in though, as:
    252+ Atk Adaptability Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 160 HP / 4 Def Fletchinder: 342-404 (112.1 - 132.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    And Beedrill can just U-turn away from Rhydon. Rhydon can set up stealth rocks, but chances are the opponent has rapid spin or defog.

    Zoroark is risky. It needs max attack LO to take out Mega Beedrill, but if you can trick Beedrill into thinking it can stay in and u-turn out or KO, it's as good as gone.

    Neither of the former pokemon are very common, and the Zoroark deal is just annoying to pull off.

    TLDR: Fast as shit, strong as shit, be's a shit and runs away from counters with U-turn. SE Scarfers and Some Priority get it but chances are it isn't staying in. Stealth Rocks hurts its love of U-turn, but defog etc.

    My vote is for it get banned.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2014
  6. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    'ello frens.

    It's pretty unanimous in this thread and outside of it as well. Beedrill is too much for this tier. See pretty much any of the posts in this thread for reasons.

    Beedrillite is banned.
     
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  7. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Tier updated to include this ban.
     
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