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[ORAS] ORAS NU Viability Rankings

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Weavile, Nov 26, 2014.

  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Hi. Welcome to PO's Viability Rankings for ORAS NU. This list will aim to include and rank all Pokémon viable in the ORAS NU tier in tiers from S to C-. We as a community will decide where each Pokémon goes, but the final decision and responsibility to edit the OP falls to the current NU tier leaders.

    If you wish to argue a Pokémon to feature on the list, or to move from its position to another place on the list, you are more than welcome to do so, however you must provide a reasoning for your suggestion, posts without reasoning or that aren't trying to promote discussion of something will be at best ignored, at worst potentially infracted.

    --------------------------------------------------------------


    A Rank: A Rank Pokémon are significant forces in the metagame. They perform a number of roles well or a single role very well, unlike S Rank Pokémon they may require a degree of team support and have some minor flaws that stop them being dominant.

    A+ Tier:
    [​IMG]Gurdurr[​IMG]Magmortar[​IMG] Mesprit[​IMG]Musharna[​IMG] Spiritomb
    [​IMG] Lanturn
    A Tier:
    [​IMG] Hariyama[​IMG]Kabutops[​IMG] Kangaskhan
    [​IMG] Registeel[​IMG]Samurott[​IMG] Scyther[​IMG] Vileplume[​IMG] Vivillon[​IMG] Vaporeon
    [​IMG]Magneton[​IMG] Tauros
    A- Tier:
    [​IMG] Cinccino[​IMG]Clawitzer[​IMG] Klinklang[​IMG] Mismagius[​IMG] Pyroar[​IMG] Rhydon
    [​IMG] Shiftry[​IMG]Stoutland[​IMG]Swellow[​IMG] Zangoose[​IMG]Archeops[​IMG] Jynx[​IMG] Rotom
    B Rank: B rank Pokémon are effective in their roles, they are often limited to one or two overlapping roles due to their limitations in stats, typing or movepool. They often require a reasonable amount of team support to be successful.


    B+ Tier:
    [​IMG] Gastrodon[​IMG] Golurk[​IMG] Granbull[​IMG] Kecleon
    [​IMG]Lilligant[​IMG] Mawile[​IMG] Omastar[​IMG]Primeape[​IMG] Regirock
    [​IMG] Skuntank[​IMG]Togetic[​IMG] Weezing
    B Tier:
    [​IMG] Accelgor[​IMG]Ambipom[​IMG] Carracosta[​IMG] Cofagrigus[​IMG] Crustle
    [​IMG]Electivire[​IMG]Exeggutor[​IMG] Garbodor[​IMG] Gorebyss[​IMG] Gourgiest-S[​IMG] Gourgiest-XL
    [​IMG]Hitmonchan[​IMG] Lickilicky[​IMG] Ludicolo[​IMG] Mantine[​IMG] Pelipper
    [​IMG] Piloswine[​IMG] Poliwrath[​IMG] Qwilfish[​IMG] Sandslash
    [​IMG]Stunfisk
    B- Tier:
    [​IMG] Aurorus[​IMG] Beheeyem[​IMG] Bouffalant[​IMG]Cacturne[​IMG] Claydol
    [​IMG]Combusken[​IMG]Ferroseed[​IMG]Golbat[​IMG] Huntail[​IMG] Liepard[​IMG] Miltank
    [​IMG]Misdreavus[​IMG]Monferno[​IMG] Muk[​IMG] Ninetales[​IMG] Pawniard
    [​IMG] Rotom-S[​IMG]Throh[​IMG]Torterra[​IMG] Trevenant[​IMG] Ursaring[​IMG]Hippopotas
    C Rank: C Rank Pokémon have some sort of niche in the metagame but are generally sub standard and require large amounts of team support. Their niche is not entirely infringed upon but they may face stiff competition from higher ranked Pokémon for their team spot.


    C+ Tier:
    [​IMG] Articuno[​IMG] Avalugg[​IMG] Barbaracle[​IMG] Cradily[​IMG] Cryogonal
    [​IMG] Dodrio[​IMG]Drifblim[​IMG]Floatzel[​IMG] Gogoat[​IMG]Golem
    [​IMG]Haunter[​IMG]Jumpluff[​IMG] Marowak[​IMG] Ninjask[​IMG] Raichu
    [​IMG] Regice[​IMG] Sawsbuck[​IMG] Shuckle[​IMG]Swoobat
    [​IMG] Tangela[​IMG] Victreebel[​IMG] Whirlipede
    C Tier:
    [​IMG]Altaria[​IMG] Arbok[​IMG]Duosion[​IMG] Dusknoir[​IMG]Electabuzz
    [​IMG] Flareon[​IMG] Fraxure[​IMG]Frogadier[​IMG]Gabite[​IMG]Glalie[​IMG] Kadabra
    [​IMG] Kingler[​IMG] Lapras[​IMG] Leavanny[​IMG] Linnoone[​IMG] Mr. Mime
    [​IMG] Probopass[​IMG] Raticate[​IMG] Roselia[​IMG] Rotom-F[​IMG]Sliggoo
    C- Tier:
    [​IMG] Ariados[​IMG] Armaldo[​IMG] Bastiodon[​IMG]Carbink[​IMG] Ditto
    [​IMG] Dragonair[​IMG] Dusclops[​IMG] Furfrou[​IMG]Gigalith[​IMG] Glaceon
    [​IMG]Heatmor[​IMG]Leafeon[​IMG]Machoke[​IMG]Macgargo[​IMG]Meganium
    [​IMG] Mightyena[​IMG]Munchlax[​IMG]Murkrow[​IMG] Pikachu[​IMG] Prinplup
    [​IMG] Purugly[​IMG] Ramparados[​IMG] Rapidash[​IMG]Servine[​IMG]Seviper
    [​IMG] Torkoal[​IMG] Volbeat[​IMG]Whiscash[​IMG]Zebstrika[​IMG] Zweilous
    D Rank: D Ranked Pokemon may have a small niche in NU, but are almost entirely outclassed by some better Pokemon or have niches that require near perfect conditions to be worthwhile. Most are not worth use in NU without a very specific goal or set of support.

    [​IMG]Butterfree[​IMG]Clefairy[​IMG] Croconaw[​IMG]Electrode[​IMG] Hypno
    [​IMG] Luxray[​IMG]Regigigas[​IMG]Shedinja[​IMG] Slaking[​IMG]Swanna
    [​IMG] Walrein[​IMG] Wartotle[​IMG]Wormadam-S
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 3, 2017
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  2. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Thanks for doing this Weavile. There are a few Pokémon I disagree with.

    Venomoth: S Rank?! Really? Its highest stats sit at 90 a piece, its movepool is pretty barren, and it can't really do anything apart from Baton Passing Quiver Dances, as it's not really powerful enough to sweep. Although that is a good niche, it's frail and has crap defensive typing so finding space to do it is tricky. B+ tops IMO.

    Fletchinder: A good revenge killer, but that's all it can really do. It's too frail to sweep and since it doesn't have Brave Bird you have to forgo an item for Acrobatics. It's also stopped dead by any Rock type, and X4 weak to Stealth Rock. B- IMO.

    Ursaring: How the hell is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier in C? Spiritomb and Cofagrigus are the only things that it can't 2HKO once Guts has activated. True it's slow, but it's still fast enough to smash most walls to pieces. You could also use its poor Speed to your advantage in a Trick Room team. Should be in B.

    Chatot: All it's good at is getting hax with Chatter. Rock types stop it cold, it's weak before boosting, frail and has average Speed. C+.

    A few mons that have yet to go on.

    Haunter: A-/B+ - unlike Mismagius it can hit hard before boosting. Can be an all out attacker with a Life Orb, run a SubStatus set or a Choice Scarf set.
    Carracosta: B-. A good late game cleaner with Shell Smash (Aqua Jet helps mitigate its poor Speed), although it needs the Grass types down first. Can also run a good Support set to counter Flying types.
    Serperior: D. Why the hell would you use this when Sceptile does everything it does better?
    Beheeyem: C+. Hits like a truck, but has average bulk and poor defensive typing
     
  3. Big Bad Booty Daddy

    Big Bad Booty Daddy Big Poppa Pump

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    The main reason that Venomoth is so high is because of the Tinted Lens Life Orb QD Set, and here's the exact set.

    Venomoth (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Roost
    - Sleep Powder

    With Tinted Lens, Venomoth power is incredibly, Quiver Dance is an amazing boosting move and with Tinted Lens, anything that resists Bug Buzz gets wrecked and probably 2hko'd. +1 Venomoth basically 2hkos the entire metagame, Pokemon like Steelix get 2hko'd if Max HP/SpD after a Quiver Dance, and Sleep Powder gives it the ability to set-up and Roost easier, and getting rid of Pokemon like Steelix who are able to take a hit. Definitely one of the best win conditions, Klefki isn't even a safe switch-in, a Pokemon used basically in order to stop 80% of fast and strong Pokemon with Thunder Wave, because of Bug Buzz or Sleep Powder, two moves that really annoy Klefki considering Tinted Lens and Sleep Powder doesn't allow Klefki to move. High Stats means absolutely nothing and in tournament play, Venomoth demonstrated that its easily one of the best Pokemon in the tier. (Zoroark is the best but broken,,,). Finding space to set-up Venomoth isn't that hard btw, Sleep Powder enables it easier chances to gain a +1, and most Grass-types are threatened by Bug Buzz and don't have the right movepool to threaten Venomoth so Sleep Powder enhances its ability to set-up.

    Fletchinder not being able to hit Rock/Steel-types does raise concern for obvious reason but Will-O-Wisp does make it tougher for Rock-types and Steel-types (even if Magneton) to stay alive, Acrobatics even if unboosted is still good for revenge killing. Preventing Rocks is annoying since that is key to its success but there are a bunch of Defoggers in the tier, and Pokemon like Shiftry got new boosts in order to help beat a lot of things that formerly beat it, but Defogging in NU currently certainly isn't as hard as it looks. Spinning is possible but Cofagrigus makes it very annoying for Pokemon like Sandslash and Claydol (Guys they're alright Pokemon stop being rude) But yeah, Fletch is fine where it is imo, there's not too many Steel/Rock-types anyways, Pokemon like Omastar are usually hazard leads which means it won't be alive probably more than 5-6 turns, and Magneton is the only real problem. Not many Steel/Rock-type

    If it needs Trick Room in order to be effective, I don't think it deserves more than C+. That's a whole lot of support, an entire team dedicated to Ursaring and a Pokemon or two more to be efficient and win the game for it. I don't think that being good under Trick Room makes it good. Once Guts is activated it's certainly hard to stop but look at ORAS NU right now, extremely offensive. A lot of Pokemon are fast and strong, and Ursaring's lack of resistances make it hard to switch in, having one in Ghost doesn't cut it right now, esp. since the Ghost-types often run different moves in order to hit those that resist its Ghost STAB. I think it's fine where it is. C+ I wouldn't mind either.

    But noooow if I'm making some changes of my own...

    Jk everything looks awesome because I helped out

    Only problem I have like I stated before was the ranking of Golbat, much too high imo. B or B+ serves it well but Golbat suffers from 4MSS, since Defog and Roost are mandatory, Taunt / Toxic / Brave Bird are kinda mandatory on Golbat but clearly it can't run it because 4MSS,,, Unfortunately it didn't gain any new niche of beating new things. All the mega evolutions kinda shit on it and I just don't believe it's the Pokemon it used to be. B+ or B.
     
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  4. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Removed Venomoth
    Moved Glalie from B to B+ (Could possibly go A-?)
    Tempted to put Jellicent and Froslass down a grade.
    Also tempted to put Ninetales from B to A-
    Thoughts?
     
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  5. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Stray Fox

    Glalie: Supporting to move to A- if not A. 100 Base speed is pretty good in NU, not to mention 120 in each Attack stat is nice. Return with Refrigerate and STAB has almost 200 BP, no recoil, and coming off of 120 Attack (Even Jolly) hurts, a lot. Explosion, a last resort, has amazing wallbreaking potential, at 390 BP. Ice Shard is Priority and earthquake hits those steels. Disregarding the Physical Set, a mixed or special set with Ice Beam, Hyper Beam, Freeze Dry and Hidden Power Ground boasts more coverage but less power/priority. Still impressive. For these reasons I say Glalie should be moved to A-, if not A.

    Jellicent: Not used very much. Good special walling potential, but absolutely demolished by the Oh-so common Knock Off. Grass and Electric are awful common among special attacks in NU, so even then the Special Bulk is only average. I'd say Jellicent should be B-.

    Froslass: Very fast, useful ability and meagre attacking stats. Still maintains a good role as a suicide lead for spikes/taunt and whatnot, I'd say A- as it pulls of what it needs to do with ease, as long as you run the Sash Set.

    Ninetales: Eh, I'd say B+ for Ninetales. Can work as either support (weather) or offensive, but I don't think its worthy of A- for strange reasons I cannot fathom.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2014
  6. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I wouldn't trust a special Glalie.

    You underestimate Jellicent's bulk with investment. B- is a preposterously low place to put it.
    252 SpA Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 172+ SpD Jellicent: 138-163 (34.2 - 40.4%) -- 44.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Sceptile Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 172+ SpD Jellicent: 200-236 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 68.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Camerupt Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 172+ SpD Jellicent: 169-201 (41.9 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Ninetales itself isn't really the point of Ninetales. The sun makes things like Camel, Typhlosion and Shiftry a lot more threatening. Hell it can even help Mega Pidgeot out a bit.
     
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  7. Suigetsu

    Suigetsu Active Member

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    Apparently I'm the only one who's tried it then, checked the Usage stats .-. Freeze Dry is still pretty common though, so yeah.

    Impressive, sure, but still all it can do is Status and Recover really (excluding scalding things like Camerupt). I'm fine with A- I guess, but still I'm a bit iffy about it.

    As for Ninetales, wouldn't that count as a reasonable amount of Team support to make its sun viable?
     
  8. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Statusing and Recovering is a big deal. It also stallbreaks with Taunt.

    I would argue that in this scenario Ninetales IS the supporter. Much as Klefki is the supporter, not the supported. Despite Spikes allowing something else to sweep/stall not Klefki itself.
     
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  9. ShowMeTheMankey

    ShowMeTheMankey savage

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    The only thing needed to support Ninetales is hazard removal, as with many other top tier pokemon. So no, Ninetales does not require a reasonable amount of team support.

    Sun teams can certainly do well in a tier riddled with chlorophyll abusers (Exeggutor, Victreebell etc.), powerful fire types (Typhlosion, Camerupt etc.) and viable hazard removers (Golbat, Skuntank etc.) which is why Ninetales should be raised from B.

    Especially considering it only faces one other weather changer (Hippo) making 8 turns of sun almost inevitable once Ninetales is played.
     
  10. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Moved Ninetales to A-
    More considerations:
    Dragalge A -> A+
    Sigilyph B-> B+
    Cryogonal, Ambipom and Regirock B- -> B
     
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  11. ShowMeTheMankey

    ShowMeTheMankey savage

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    Sceptillite banned so I would argue Sceptile should be moved down from S tier for obvious reasons.

    I'd probably place it as B or B- tier as it can still run a good offensive set. LO backed Leaf Storm causes significant amount of damage to most things, Giga drain gives an OK means of recovery which is needed for LO sets in particular, Focus Blast can stop steel types from walling, substitute is also a good option as Sceptile can force many switches with base 120 speed 105 special attack.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2015
  12. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Sceptile moved down to B+
    Pidgeot taking its place in S
    Dragalge taking Pidgeot's place in A+
     
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  13. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Goth should be removed.

    Also, I'd say Glalie is definitely worth A- or A. It functions as an awesome suicide spiker and also has the stats and movepool to be a solid all-out attacker
     
  14. Kody

    Kody :]

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    I would push for:

    Noivern A -> A+

    Noivern has an matched mix of speed, power and coverage. It can run a variety of sets from standard LO 3/4 attacks to a support Super Fang Roost set. There are very few things that can actually stop Noivern. Calcs in a future edit I need to leave to eat now.
     
  15. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So things I've been asked about or am considering.
    Noivern A -> A+
    Noivern is a great mon, no question about it. Blistering speed, decent coverage and half decent attack make it a strong threat. However its pretty frail and struggles to take on things like Vaps, Jellicent, Milotic, Sdef Golbat, Bronzong, Audino. It's just not strong as a wallbreaker. That said it does get Switcheroo which can be deadly. Honestly I think the fact that it has huge potential but some notable downsides to its use makes it a fit for A more than A+

    Hippowdon A+ -> A/A-
    I think this is a good idea tbh. Hippowdon in the current meta isn't all that good, it struggles against the Amoonguss/Vaporeon cores and while it's still easily one of the best Rockers, I don't think it's quite the metagame force it was before.

    Vaporeon A -> A+
    Yes, I think this is well deserved.

    Serperior:
    I'm gonna put this in A for now since it kind of feels right.

    Cofagrigus A -> A-
    I can honestly get behind this, I find Cofag rather underwhelming, but it is good.

    Kangaskhan B+ -> A-
    I think Kanga is a an extremely good Pokémon. Adamant Silk Scarf is an extremely useful Pokémon to have around, its strong Dual Priority and Double Edge STAB make it excellent against defensive and offensive teams alike.

    Dragalge A+ -> S
    Not sure really. Its speed makes it kind of a lot less good against offense. But it is a very very good mon.
     
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  16. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Mikasa used revive!

    Amoonguss
    Dragalge
    Glalie
    Golbat
    Hippowdon
    Klefki
    Magneton
    Sceptile
    Tangrowth
    Wobuffett
    Xatu
    Gallade
    Pidgeot
    Serperior
    Vaporeon
    Lopunny

    ^ All these need to get removed as they left the tier

    For the new rankings:
    Abomasnow: "A" Rank: Weak to rocks and slow, but incredibly powerful. It has access to the coveted Ice Shard and can run both a mixed wallbreaker or a physical SD set to great effect. It has trouble breaking through certain mons, ie Bronzong, but can be hard to deal with still. Notable checks: AV Bouffalant (Sap Sipper+AV for Blizzard), PhysDef Thick Fat Miltank, Bronzong, Articuno, Durant, and Fire types (Don't appreciate EQ's, but can switch into his dual stab bar Fletch who can switch into EQ/Wood Hammer but not Blizzard). Potential to get suspected in the future imo.

    Banette: "A-" Rank: M-Ban has access to priority Will-O-Wisp and Destiny Bond which allows it to cripple or flat out kill threats to your team with ease. This in conjunction with acceptable bulk and massive attack makes it a very threatening and annoying mon to deal with, but it has trouble breaking through walls and has 4mss (it wants to run moves such as Taunt, Knock Off, Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, Sucker Punch, Will-O-Wisp, Destiny Bond, Gunk Shot, Pain Split, etc).


    Durant: "A+" Rank: (Most likely going to get banned so it doesn't really need to be ranked) Very threatening sweeper, it has access to Hone Claws to alleviate it's accuracy as well as boosting an already sky high attack stat. It's bulk really leaves something to be desired, but it makes up for that in speed and power. It can also effectively run choiced sets.


    Kabutops: "B+" Rank: Whilst it's a decent physical spinner with access to SD and priority, it just lacks something in most categories. It's too slow, a little too frail, not strong enough to break through walls like Seismitoad due to limited movepool, it just falls slightly short. However, it can and will sweep you if you sleep on it and allow it to get an SD up late game so don't think it's not a threat.


    Kingdra: "S" Rank: It's pretty obvious that this is going to get banned so it's not really worth ranking, but this is the epitome of S rank. It doesn't require much/any support, it can run a myriad of extremely threatening sets that all have different, and very few, answers. This mon is the very definition of S rank.


    Mawile: "B-" Rank: Sheer Force Life Orb Play Rough hurts like a bitch and it can break through pokemon like Steelix with Sheer Force Life Orb Fire Blast allowing it to actually pose a threat to slow and bulky teams, but it is just too frail and slow to be a top tier theat. It has a niche in a mixed wall breaker or even a utility mon since it has access to Swords Dance and Stealth Rocks as well as priority in Sucker Punch, but it's just not strong enough to be ranked higher as it can struggle a bit to find opportunities to set up.
    0 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Steelix: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Mawile Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Feraligatr: 407-481 (108.8 - 128.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    Politoed: "D" Rank: No Drizzle (y u do dis Jey..) means that it's just outclassed by other bulky waters (Starmie, Milotic, Jellicent)


    Shaymin "S" Rank: Same deal as Kingdra, no real reason to rank it as it's about to get banned; however, it has no real "counter" since it can hax it's way through it's answers 40% of the time (it does has some checks ie Noivern). It has good coverage moves in Earth Power, Air Slash, and Psychic as well as hidden powers. It has good utility moves that allows it to run Scarf sets with Healing wish (or on the LO set) or SubSeed sets.
    252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Noivern: 129-152 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    Shuckle: "B+" Rank: Shuckle can provide a lot of support in the form of Sticky Web+ Stealth Rocks and can scare your opponent into not setting up with the threat of Encore. Shuckle lacks the offensive pressure to make it an A rank mon however, imo.


    Smeargle: "B+" Rank: Same deal as shuckle, but it uses Spore instead of Encore and trades speed for bulk.


    Starmie: "A+" Rank: Whilst Starmie is a very good mon, it's threatened by the bulky waters who wall it and the pursuit trappers which force it to run Reflect Type. An offensive set hits like a truck since it can force switches and abuse the analytic ability, but if they don't switch then it's power drops. Pursuit trappers like Skunktank and Spiritomb can force 50/50s that are more favorable to the trapper (generally). It CAN beat the trappers if it uses the Reflect Type set, but that makes it incredibly easy to setup on as it loses it's stab as well as a move slot (giving up Scald/Psyshock/Rapid Spin)
    (imagine this situation: Starmie uses Reflect Type on Skunktank who uses Pursuit. Pursuit does minimal damage, Starmie can now beat Skunktank. Skunktank is free to Switch since Starmie is now using moves without STAB and without any investment)
    0 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 88-104 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
    I cannot deny that Reflect type allows Starmie to 1v1 beat it's trappers (bar taunt Skunktank), but it's give and take. It gives STAB and it's 4th move slot to allow it to beat 2 pokemon. This set also most likely gives up Psyshock for Reflect type which makes it unable to beat even more pokemon (ie Seismitoad/Jellicent/Exeggutor)

    228+ Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 63-75 (19.5 - 23.2%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery (After a Reflect Type)


    Yanmega: "A+" Rank: Again, probably going to get banned but here we go:Incredibly threatening Sweeper, it can run either LO Speed Boost or Tinted Lens Specs to great effect. It's very hard to stop the LO set once it gets going and the Tinted Lens set is limited to very bulky spdef mons ie Milotic. The only reason I don't think it's worthy of S rank is because it requires support in the form of hazard removal to be used effectively.
    252 SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Eelektross: 163-193 (43.5 - 51.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    Emboar B+ -> A+: Emboar just received it's hidden ability, Reckless which powers up it's main Stab (Flare Blitz), it's best coverage move (Wild Charge) which is boosted by the fact that the best physical wall left the tier (not that it could stop Reckless CB Flare Blitz anyways). Emboar right now has 0 switch ins. Wild Charge does 90% to PhysDef Milotic. Scarf Flare Blitz 2hkos Mega Camerupt (Scarf, not even banded). I believe this will probably be suspected after the more broken mons leave, but it definitely deserves recognition as the best wall breaker at the moment.
     
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  17. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Removed all of those. Thanks.

    Abomasnow: A seems like a good spot to me. It's slow and has 7 weaknesses including a rocks weak but it is really strong on both attacking sides and has great coverage and priority. So yeah I support that.

    Banette: Not to use some dumb argument like it competes for a mega slot, but I think B+ is a more suited place for Banette. Its drawbacks may be somewhat mitigated by its ability and big attack priority. But I still think it has the flaws that would push it to a B rank Pokémon rather than a bottom A.

    Durant: This is up for suspect after the current suspects. So I'll hold off. But if I were to rank it I'd probably go for A+ too.

    Kabutops: Kind of overshadowed a lot by Starmie, but it has its functions I guess. B or B+.

    Kingdra: Current suspect but yeah. S rank.

    Mawile: Honestly I think you overrate this. It's slow, it's kind of strong with all its shit set up but it's pretty frail (especially without Intimidate) it lacks the raw power that it needs with its priority too. C+ or C imo.

    Politoed: I mean you don't use it without Drizzle but I think Encore gimmicks and OK bulk would be enough to earn it a C-. But then again it's completely and utterly outdone in every way by Poliwrath, and even that is an inferior bulky water in the meta.

    Shaymin: See Kingdra

    Shuckle: I really think Shuckle is broken and cancerous to the meta. But of course if it's not an offensive threat people don't really get on your side with that. A rank imo.

    Smeargle: Smeargle isn't really all that versatile. It used to be a force of nature with Xatu BP but Xatu's gone so I guess B+ is ok for it.

    Starmie: A+ or S. Bulky waters aren't a threat to Starmie in this tier. They are numerous enough to make running Thunderbolt or Grass Knot extremely lucrative. Pursuit trappers can be a problem but it smacks most of them for some real crazy damage. It's the best spinner that NU will ever get and a great Pokémon overall.

    Yanmega: See Durant

    Emboar: It gained Reckless but really it needed some things more than it needed to hit harder. It's better now and I would move it to A to reflect this, but A+ is, imo, too much currently.

    Discussion hype.
     
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  18. Health

    Health Champion of LU

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    You're forgetting Sigilyph man, that's one broken ass combo right there.
     
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  19. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Starmie definitely belongs in A+, if not S. Solid bulk, great speed, epic coverage with BoltBeam, awesome STABs in Psyshock and Scald/HPump/Surf, and spinning capabilities are all a blessing to the tier. Hell, this thing is still sitting pretty at A- in OU
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2015
  20. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    After testing a bit
    M-Lix: Really really underrated, this thing has been in so much work. I'm been playing with just an Adamant max invest set with SR/Heavy Slam/EQ/Roar (or Toxic/Stone Edge) and very little can safely switch into this.
    252+ Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 168-198 (47.4 - 55.9%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

    If they switch into a bulky water, you can just toxic on the switch and let the damage rack up. It also takes hits phenomenally well:
    252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 162-192 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Jellicent Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Steelix: 158-188 (44.6 - 53.1%) -- 27.7% chance to 2HKO
    +1 252 Atk Scrafty Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 138-164 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    And then it can hit back:
    252+ Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scrafty: 186-219 (68.6 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 313-370 (115.4 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Mega Steelix Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 234-276 (57.9 - 68.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    I'd suggest moving this up to A- or even A really, it's an amazing pivot in the current metagame as well since it can rather easily force switches.
     
  21. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    ya steelix should be a for sure

    also i have no clue why heliolisk is C+. it soaks up scald which makes it viable in its own right. it's fast, gets momentum as it pleases with volt switch (it beats every ground type with focus blast/surf/grass knot pick 1 or even 2) and it has a strong hyper voice to ensure grass types can't switch in endlessly. it's probably an a- mon

    hariyama should be higher too it's far and away the best mon against fire spam whereas it also gets knock off, dual priority and a close combat not too many mons wanna switch into.

    malamar could be higher that shit is hard to kill and incredibly annoying to every balance team.

    cofagrigus should probably drop to b+ or something. if it's defensive it usually kinda sucks and if it's offensive it usually doesn't sweep (or at least that's how i see it). idk i feel like the otr set is not nearly as good as it was in bw and while toxic spikes are cool and all for the defensive set, special attackers take advantage of it all the time.
     
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  22. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Made almost all of the changes people talked about.
    Not gonna rank Durant or Yanmega since they are/will be suspects. I only re-ranked Emboar because it was already there.
     
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  23. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    just one quick note: Banette in the listing seems to be named Kabutops for some reason
     
  24. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    fixed.
     
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  25. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So I put the whole list into some neat tables.
    While re-listing I found a few things that might need moving imo.

    I'll put them like: Pokemon (Current Rank) (Up or Down imo)

    Jolteon (B) (Up)
    Feraligatr (B+) (Up, it just got G A T R F O R C E)
    Kangaskhan (B+) (Up)
    Sigilyph (B) (Up)
    Pangoro (B) (Up)
    Garbodor (B-) (Up)
    Granbull (B-) (Up)
    Hariyama (B-) (Up)
    Regirock (B-) (Up)
    Clawitzer (B-) (Up)
    Shiftry (B+) (Down)
    Lickylicky (C) (Up)
    Cacturne (C) (Up)
     
  26. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I think Poliwrath should move up from C+ -> B. It's the best Gatr answer, handles Steelix, can switch into Fire type moves (Typh's Eruption), takes hits from M-lix and M-Camel (doesn't really appreciate Earth Powers but it won't get ohko'd!!!) It works well in conjunction with hazard stack since it has access to Circle Throw and has good utility moves such as encore and bulk up which can make it pretty annoying/scary to face. It takes on quite a few B+ rank mons as well (Scrafty, Kabutops, Kangaskhan, Omastar, Drapion, Skuntank, etc). Right now, I feel that Poliwrath is a pretty good mon. Also cool formating :]
     
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  27. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Lol, Gatrforce. Sounds like an energy drink. xD

    Definitely agreeing with what Weavile said, especially on Gatr. I'll be surprised if he doesn't break the damn tier.
     
  28. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So it kind of slipped way under the radar. Where do you guys think we should rank non-mega Houndoom (Mega is banned in LU)
     
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  29. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Considering the current meta, I think Poliwrath could be moved up a tier; it checks a lot of stuff including DD Tyrantrum/feraligatr/M-Steelix and a few other B tier mons as well. It also works well with hazard stack because of Circle Throw.

    Regarding Houndoom, it should be good in B- or B; the only 2 viable sets I can think of are 1) Nplot sweeper 2) Mixed attacker with Sucker punch/Fire Blast/Pursuit/Filler. Both can be successful to an extent, provided it has enough team support. I'd like to hear more opinions on it though.
     
  30. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I feel like B/B+ or maybe even A- is a good starting point, the mixed set (Pursuit/Sucker Punch/Fire Blast/ XXX) can trap mons like Sigilyph (although it gets outsped and Air Slash does hurt so be careful!), Mesprit, Jynx, forces mindgames w/ Starmie, etc. It has utility moves in Taunt, Will-O-Wisp, Destiny Bond, and Nasty Plot which are all really good. It's coverage moves outside of stab aren't really that good, but after a Nasty Plot it becomes pretty powerful. It's speed is still good, but no where near as good as it was in BW2 since we now have speed demons like Helioisk, Starmie, and even Jolteon in the tier. The Nasty Plot set is obviously scary against Stall, but it can be dealt with by using mons like Poliwrath, Milotic, Mega Camel, and if it lacks HP Grass then mons like Gastrodon and Seismitoad. It's weak to Mach Punch and Aqua Jet which means pokemon like Gurdurr, Feraligatr, and Kabutops can kill it after rocks. It's a nice soft check to Fire Spam (watch out for coverage moves) and is a nice pursuit user to have joining Spiritomb and Skuntank. With the introduction of Assualt Vest, pokemon like Hariyama are a lot better and Hariyama is definitely an amazing check to it, taking minimal damage. Bulk Up Scrafty is another good check that balance can utilize to deal with Houndoom and if it lacks Nasty Plot, Mega Audino will give it a run for it's money.

    252 SpA Life Orb Houndoom Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 232 SpD Assault Vest Thick Fat Hariyama: 75-91 (17.4 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO
    252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Houndoom: 216-254 (74.2 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Kabutops Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Houndoom: 296-351 (101.7 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
     
  31. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    houndoom is one of those pokemon that is a jack of many trades but master of none. it can work as fire spam check, pursuit trapper, fire spam asset and priority mon. if you examine all of these rolls individually it's outclassed in all of them by some other mon but hound is cool to compress team slots.

    unlike in certain other metagames, houndoom has got plentiful hard counters in the tier like milotic, hariyama, mega camerupt and then some mons that only have to watch out for certain coverage moves. overall, i think b+ is a good place for it.
     
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  32. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    After testing both Tyrantrum and Feraligatr with their newly released DW abilities, I strongly believe they should be in A+ and A- respectively.

    Tyrantrum has several sets, with the most effective being Choice Band and Dragon Dance. The Choice Band set is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier, as it can 2HKO everything bar Mega Steelix (which still takes hefty damage from Superpower). Outrage smashes the bulky Ground and Fighting types, while Earthquake and or Superpower can put a dent in the Steel types. The Dragon Dance set is lethal once the bulky Ground types are down: due to the massive power of Head Smash, you can afford to run a Lum Berry and you'll still KO anything not resisting Head Smash. You could also run a Choice Scarf set, as previously mentioned you outrun 130s with a Jolly nature or use Rock Polish in place of Dragon Dance to outrun scarf Primeape. Steelix is just about the only safe counter, and even then it still takes massive damage from a Choice Band Superpower and it lacks reliable recovery.

    Pre Sheer Force's release, Feraligatr would run 2 sets: Dragon Dance and Swords Dance, meant to sweep and wallbreak respectively. Sheer Force has made those sets much more effective: Waterfall, previously quite a weak move, now hits slightly harder than a STAB Earthquake. Its most common coverage moves Ice Punch and Crunch, get the boost too so they now sit at around 100 base power. Dragon Dance gives Feraligatr enough Speed to outrun 130s (with Jolly) and enough Attack to wreck late game. Swords Dance is a great wallbreaker, as its STAB Waterfall lets it break through (Mega) Steelix and Hippowdon. However, both sets have issues with bulky Water types.
     
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  33. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Changes:
    Removed Emboar.
    Poliwrath C -> B-
    Added Houndoom and Togetic to B.
     
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  34. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    I hope u mean Togetic.

    Also what I said last time. I guess I should name some proposed places

    Jolteon (B) (Up). To A-, great speed, pretty good special attack, nice STAB hype and with Volt Switch. Fails against Mega Camel and Steelix but real good none the less.
    Feraligatr (B+) (Up, it just got G A T R F O R C E). To A or A+. Really potent sweeper now.
    Kangaskhan (B+) (Up). To A-, really good priority user. Solid bulk and hits really hard with Double Edge. Sweeps teams with spikes support and some good play.
    Sigilyph (B) (Up). To B+ or A-, it's pretty fast but not blistering and it has its share of flaws in not being too easy to set up in this meta. But it's a strong mon that can do some serious damage.
    Pangoro (B) (Up). To B+, it's slow but it's extremely strong. Nothing quite compares to its power and coverage.
    Garbodor (B-) (Up). To B Decent Spiker and Tspiker, makes good use of Rocky Helmet and Aftermath too.
    Granbull (B-) (Up). To B, fat mon with some nice intimidate. I don't really like it but I think it's better than B-.
    Hariyama (B-) (Up). To B+ Reasonably bulky, really strong and has a great movepool. I can really see this a B+ mon
    Regirock (B-) (Up). To B or B+ Great sponge and rocker, kind of overshadowed by Mega Steelix but it has a few things it doesn't, like a fire resist.
    Clawitzer (B-) (Up). To B Very strong and not too easy to kill with an AV, and not quite as slow as it first seems. Doesn't belong this low imo.
    Shiftry (B+) (Down). To B Really frail and pretty one-track. Not a bad mon by any means but not quite what it used to be.
    Lickylicky (C) (Up). To B- A really fat mon. It's kind of an inferior Audino in some ways but it has superior offensive presence and access to Dtial.
    Cacturne (C) (Up). To B, a really potent sucker Puncher with Swords Dance. Does some serious damage to many things. Water Absorb helps it not care about Scalds in any way. Kind of slow but Sucker really does help.
    Stunfisk (C) (Up). To B- Not the best in this meta, but it's a neat check to things like Fletchinder, Jolteon or Noivern. Rocks are neat and it's actually fatter than you might think.

    Oh also Mega Steelix to S.
    It's so damn good.
     
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  35. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Agreeing to most of the above, especially Feraligatr and M-steelix. Both of them are amazing in the meta right now.

    Pangoro (B) -> A- : Amazing dual STAB's, extremely powerful with Iron Fist. This could be A- imo
    Whimsicott(B-) -> B or B+ : A very good mon overall; with good typing and Prankster. Can run support sets or Ofeensive sets with LO. could be moved up a tier.

    edit: forgot about the Lizard
    Heliolisk (C+) -> B+ : High speed and special attack along with great ability and excellent dual electric/normal STAB allows it to run LO/Specs/Scarf sets. Has great coverage moves in Grass knot/Surf/Focus blast as well.
     
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2015
  36. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Alright.
    Thanks to @da raikage , @ShowMeTheMankey , @Draciel and @Cirno (oh and I guess @ZoroDark too) the list has been completely reshuffled with many changes and new additions.
    Thanks all of the above :^]

    Of course that doesn't mean any of this is final, still more than open to suggestions.
     
  37. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Some potential changes to the list that I see:
    Typhlosion: A or A-. If it takes any significant prior damage, it's essentially a weaker version of some of the pokes I'll mention below. It is certainly strong and can pulverize unprepared teams, but I don't believe it is worth A+ rank due to how much support it needs to be truly deadly. Lol derp, forgot it gained Flash Fire. Still not quite sure it belongs in A+, but a lot better than I had originally judged it.

    Ninetales: A or A-. Same speed as Typh, but more bulk and more resilient to taking damage. It also provides an almost incomparable form of team support with Drought. With the high numbers of spinners/defoggers as well as other fire spammers and Chlorophyll abusers, this thing is still a force to be reckoned with.

    Pyroar: B+ or A-. It has the single best speed tier for fire types, and its interesting movepool (STAB normal and Dark Pulse come to mind) gives it a pretty solid niche over its firey brethren.

    Shiftry: B+ or A-. I feel it is still one of the better pokes in the metagame, as it lost a lot of its competing Defoggers, has a whole slew of new water and ghost/psychics it loves to hit, and is still arguably the best Cholorphyll abuser in the tier. Its power isn't necessarily that it does any one thing extraordinarily well, but that it can do many things well enough to have several solid niches in the metagame.

    Also, I'm wondering what you guys think about an NFE that I've been using: Whirlipede. It's arguably a better quick passer/chain passer due to its better defensive typing and bulk (with or without the Eviolite). It also can be a pretty interesting double spiker as well, and it can even fulfill both roles simultaneously if you want. I think C+/C/C- would be a fine place for it since it fulfills Ninjask's major role better but also has the disadvantage of being a much less useful offensive poke.
     
  38. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Removed Noivern because it got banned.
    also tier shifts happening in 2 days so discussion hype
     
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  39. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Well, we're definitely losing Starmie at the end of the month, likely to LU, but perhaps even all the way to OU (4.3% usage!), but I've also noticed that Steelix has broken 4% usage on LU as well. That could shake things up substantially, having two of the tier's most used threats naturally rise a tier.

    EDIT: Along with Whimsicott, Bronzong, Jolteon and a couple others, but they're less important.
     
  40. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    The lack of Starmie is big, it makes Steelix a lot better if it stays. Also makes other rockers and spikers better by way of being by far the best spinner we've ever had.

    Bronzong, Whimsicott and Jolteon are all reasonably notable Pokémon. We also see the loss of Mega Camerupt and the re-obtaining of Mega Glalie which is an interesting shuffle of the NU mega landscape. Leaving us with Abomasnow, Glalie, Banette and maybe Steelix.

    The loss of faster Pokémon in Jolteon, Starmie and Noivern also leaves the state of speed tiers looking better for Pokémon like Archeops, Virizion, Heliolisk and Cinccino. One again there are the top of the chain in terms of speed tier and they will benefit for it. It'll be an interesting time.
     
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