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Suspect Discussion: Thundurus-T

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by Insane Soul, Nov 30, 2014.

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  1. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    [​IMG]
    *thanks to Ortheore for the sick drawing*


    Discuss the possibility of Thundurus-T being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Thundurus-T's effect in the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, its best partners/team support and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think Thundurus-T should be banned or if it should stay in the ORAS UU tier.

    All opinions are welcome to be presented, and arguments may be shared between players, as long as you back it up with knowledge and experience and refrain from making your entire points based on responses to others. Theorymonning is not a valid argument and anyone who bases their opinion in it risks being infracted. If you are relatively new to this kind of environment, i suggest you read these guidelines.

    Do not forget that, if a consensus can't be found after this discussions reaches its end, a vote will be held.

    IMPORTANT NOTE: Due to the "impending" deletion of the XY Tiers, which will allow for ORAS to fully take over the Gen 6 Metagames, if a positive outcome comes out of this discussion (Thundurus-T being banned), then Thundurus-T will also be banned in the XY UU tier.
    Because of this, you may present arguments and spark discussions about Thundurus-T in the XY UU tier, as long as you identify said arguments as pertaining to that tier. If you present arguments pertaining to ORAS UU, you should also identify them as such.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
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  2. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    This is from an XY UU perspective becauseThundy didn't really get any new counters in ORAS so it still remains as broken as before. Just reposting my old post about Thundy.

    It can run Scarf, Specs, LO NP, Agility, Agility NP, LO 4 attacks, etc all extremely well. Base 101 speed is really good in this tier, it allows Thundy to outspeed things like non-scarf Victini, Rose, Nidoking, non-scarf Hydreigon, MBlast, Jirachi, etc. It has amazing coverage, with just Thunderbolt, HP Ice and Grass Knot/FB/Sludge Wave it has perfect coverage afaik. I don't even know what its best set is tbh because they're all insanely good. Personally I'm more threatened by the NP sets because I run more balanced teams. Scarf is excellent in dealing with HO, base 145 Spatk with that much speed and Volt Switch is pretty ridiculous, especially since it outspeeds scarfers like Victini, Salamence, Hydreigon, Staraptor, Darmanitan and outspeeds Crobat, Weavile, Mega Alakazam, Honchkrow, etc.
    The scarf set is even frustrating for stall and balanced to deal with because of the constant momentum it's gaining, and even without Modest that Volt Switch is going to leave a nice dent in anything as they get momentum to go into their Nidoking or whatever as you go into your Florges to eat the Volt Switch. I think Scarf is probably the most universal set, but even without Scarf, base 101 speed is still amazing in this meta and you can viably run LO Agility or Specs or whatever and still do great vs HO because of that annoying speed stat. I definitely think this thing should be banned. Nothing can really take a +2 LO Thundy barring like Vest Raikou or lesser used Vest users like Reun/Goodra/Lanturn.

    Some calcs:
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 285-335 (79.1 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 367-434 (98.1 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Snorlax: 452-533 (98 - 115.6%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 298-352 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Roserade: 260-307 (80.2 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Amoonguss: 309-364 (71.6 - 84.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    The walls that don't get OHKOed really can't do shit to Thundy except like 30% so you're essentially just sacking your wall to get off a third of its health. It gets a good amount of opportunities to boost up vs balanced or stall too because of how many things it can come in on relatively safely. Forre, Swampert, Jirachi, Tangrowth, etc. Oh and Volt Absorb is pretty good.
    So I think Thundy is pretty unhealthy for the tier and should be banned, we didn't even get anything in ORAS that beats it so it's still as broken as it was in XY.
     
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  3. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    I don't get how the scarf set is supposed to threaten stall when it can't really come in on anything safely, is pretty vulnerable to SR and doesn't leave that much of a chunk on basically anything on stall. Suicune isn't even 2HKOedby Timid Scarf Volt Switch iirc after a CM, anything else is flatout not forced to switch by choiced Thundy. With NP it's a good stallbreaker, but nothing unbeatable as it needs to get the boost and can also be tanked afterwards, which will help you to stall it out with Toxic and LO (refer to the next paragraph)

    As for the calcs that you posted in that spoiler, they actually don't quite prove your point as said mons can tank aside from Snorlax/Pory2 and you assume Life Orb so it can actually be worn down pretty fine. If you don't give it any free setups (you might think about predicting a Thundy switch into Forry, like, if you feel like facing a chance of getting swept, you would want to prevent it) you don't have to worry that much if you play stall, as predicting is a part of the game, regardless of playstyle.

    Furthermore, you're overestimating the effectivity of Thundy T against offensive teams. It can revenge many things for sure, but it isn't nearly as good at switching into things. What offensive mon is it supposed to switch into after rocks? Seeing as most mons mentioned by you are revengekillers, it's basically a RK and get RK'd situation which can easily involve a sacked mon on Thundys side. And then, Thundy yet can be outpredicted, like, a choiced VS can be exploited easily if it gets predicted. So can an HP Ice and especially a Thunderbolt too. Considering that Hydreigon isn't oneshot and Victini isn't either iirc unless Specs.

    I don't quite play UU actively any longer so I don't really care which decision will be taken. I'd technically be anti ban and argue on it if I would care.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2014
  4. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    I dislike resorting to usage stats to portray the representation of pokes used in the tier when it's pretty early and there's some weird stuff going around + new megas still being tested, but let's take a look at things 4% and above at the moment because it still provides an accurate view of the tier:

    Forretress 30.9569 1252
    Altaria 23.3166 943
    Florges 21.7588 880
    Chandelure 21.4374 867
    Hydreigon 20.8687 844
    Suicune 19.8549 803
    Swampert 16.1213 652
    Nidoking 15.9235 644
    Crawdaunt 15.701 635
    Cresselia 13.9454 564

    Chesnaught 13.6487 552
    Metagross 13.5004 546
    Toxicroak 12.1899 493
    Victini 11.9674 484
    Jirachi 11.2256 454
    Staraptor 10.7311 434
    Arcanine 8.72826 353
    Empoleon 8.62936 349

    Weavile 8.01121 324
    Krookodile 7.56614 306
    Snorlax 7.54142 305
    Politoed 7.49196 303
    Roserade 7.44251 301
    Sableye 7.02217 284

    Lopunny 6.75019 273
    Diancie 6.52765 264
    Kingdra 6.3793 258
    Hawlucha 6.32984 256

    Alakazam 6.15676 249
    Beedrill 5.7117 231
    Bronzong 5.53861 224
    Galvantula 5.48916 222
    Salamence 5.41498 219
    Reuniclus 5.36553 217

    Rotom-H 5.31608 215
    Gallade 5.16772 209
    Tentacruel 5.143 208
    Darmanitan 5.11827 207
    Whimsicott 5.06882 205
    Magneton 4.87101 197

    Porygon2 4.79683 194
    Gligar 4.77211 193
    Rhyperior 4.64848 188
    Machamp 4.5743 185
    Entei 4.5743 185
    Sceptile 4.50012 182
    Mienshao 4.50012 182
    Donphan 4.42595 179
    Amoonguss 4.0056 162

    The things in green are Pokemon Thundurus-T can beat with almost no risk to itself. So all sets don't have any trouble with these pokes and NP/Agility sets can set up on all of them, fearing only random Toxics and Spore from Amoonguss if Sleep Clause hasn't activated.

    If you get a Nasty Plot up, the things in blue are Pokemon Thundurus-T can handle by itself in a 1v1 situation. I'm assuming a set of Nasty Plot/Thunderbolt/Grass Knot/Focus Blast because I find it hits the most relevant things, but it also takes into account if you run another Hidden Power like Flying or Ice I've also factored that stuff in.

    101 speed beats a lot of base 100s running around, and 145 base SpA means a +2 Thunderbolt with only a Magnet can OHKO bulky things like Reuniclus (max HP), so it's both faster than the majority of the tier and powerful enough to OHKO a good 80% of the most common things running around.

    Let's look at the stuff that I haven't highlighted:
    Altaria - This only works to check Choiced variants stuck in Thunderbolt/Grass Knot or something, and can probably take a few hits from Agility Thundy and be able to Roost off damage, but it can't try living +2 HP Ice most likely.
    Florges - Loses to Sludge Wave, but it's the only thing on this list that Sludge hits so this is a fairly safe bet. This actually loses to the NP set with at least a Magnet boost since Thunderbolt does min 55% to it, but it can take hits from choiced sets and Agility all day.
    Metagross - No idea how the bulky Mega set fares, but I feel it can probably take a +2 Thunderbolt and retaliate back with Ice Punch. Volt Switch saps the momentum though.
    Weavile - Put here because it outspeeds non-Scarfed sets and even weakened Scarfed sets can be picked off by Ice Shard. Can't switch in though obviously.
    Snorlax - Only loses to NP Focus Blast set.
    Lopunny - Fake Out + Return will OHKO any Thundurus-T that's slower than it. Can't switch in safely but it can live an unboosted Thunderbolt once.
    Alakazam - Usually sashed to beat it but Mega Alakazam can Trace Volt Absorb and Psychic/Psyshock is an OHKO after rocks from Mega Zam.
    Beedrill - Protect can scout out the choiced move, Poison Jab does a metric ton to Thundurus. Can't switch in at all, loses to Agility sets though.
    Rotom-H - See Snorlax.
    Gallade - Probably lives a hit because great Special Defense and can hit back hard + Shadow Sneak for the kill if necessary.
    Porygon2 - See Snorlax.
    Machamp - A common Assault Vest user that can Stone Edge it to death and take one hit, even boosted.
    Entei - See Machamp.
    Sceptile - Mega Sceptile handles it pretty well, but has to be wary of HP Ice.
    Mienshao - Scarfed variants can revenge it, can't switch in though.

    So out of the things here that can beat it, I'd only count Snorlax and Porygon2 as decent enough counters but they can be beaten by it with the proper set. Florges takes on most of its sets, a few things in the tier can revenge it. Bear in mind that all Thundurus-T without Grass Knot are likely to be walled by Swampert and other Water/Ground types but even then +2 Focus Blast hurts.

    A few comments on sets:
    Specs - As with other choiced Electrics, Volt Switch can provide a ton of momentum and do a lot of damage at the same time but you have to predict carefully around other Volt Absorbers and Ground-types. Every Ground-type can be 2HKOed by the proper coverage move [Grass Knot/HP Ice] however. Speed is definitely above average, but not unbeatable, easily revenged, and if it's constantly Volt Switching out of fights then Stealth Rocks can wear it down easily.
    Scarf - Mostly the same with Specs, but this time it doesn't hit too hard for Ground-types to manage. Lots of things can survive a Scarfed Thundurus' assault as well: for example, Thunderbolt only does around half to Victini and about 62% to Salamence. Scarf is usually used to Volt Switch on things that can't really hurt it to gain momentum but you're again taking the risk of hitting a Ground-type. Note that Scarfed sets are a lot easier to deal with if you're playing stall because most things laugh at its damage. For example, Florges and Cresselia take about 24%, barely a quarter HP. Much more annoying against offense, but again, constantly coming in and out of combat makes it vulnerable to Stealth Rocks and finished off with priority.
    NP - Probably the best set, absolutely crushes stall and threatens a good amount of offense, but there's a ton of things faster than it in the tier and it can't very reliably set up an NP. My list only consists of 6 things in the tier, defensive mons like Florges and Roserade do about 50% with their attacks so it can get 2HKOed by mostly anything. I don't think you'd want to set up in front of a Vaporeon or other Water-types either because of potential Scald burns + Protect stalling will put you very low, and Scald from Vap does like 44% anyways. [Tenta barely does 30% though, which is why I have it on my list]
    Agility - Suffers from the same problem of having to be able to set up, although 128 HP EVs kind of helps its case. Still, it can't run through the mons it should be setting up on unless they're Water-types/weakned defensive mons with no recovery, and still requires quite a bit of damage to sweep a team which is what the Agility set aims to do. (Again to use Victini as an example, it takes about 73% from Modest LO Thunderbolt). I will say it's quite good at finishing off a weakened team but I would say the same of Swift Swim Kingdra, Hawlucha, and other fast sweepers.

    Double Dance seems like a much harder thing to pull off and only two moves hurts its coverage a lot when there's still things that can take +2 resisted hits (Roserade/Amoonguss if Focus Blast is the coverage move, Snorlax if anything else)

    tl;dr if it doesn't OHKO something it's likely to take heavy damage back, and although it has a set that can make it OHKO things it takes quite a bit of damage setting up (don't set up on a Florges unless you have Sludge Wave), AND usually isn't fast enough (if NP) or powerful enough (Agility) to sweep. Choiced sets are able to put a lot of pressure and get a lot of momentum from the opponent but it's also a risk because of the Electric typing Volt Switch has and the popularity of Ground-types in this tier. No ban.
     
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  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I think I'm with ThatMushroom on this one

    First things first: the only set imo that is broken is NP, which destroys defensive cores/teams. It obviously isn't as potent vs. offense (that goes for NP/SD anything), but it's still capable of putting in solid work. In a vacuum, none of the other sets are broken imo, choice sets are ridiculously prediction dependent and Agility can't beat stall while being tough to set up vs offense (and even then there's priority). So most of what I'm going to say is from the perspective of defensively minded teams vs. NP variants.

    One of the key things I'm seeing in pro-ban arguments is that it's possible for defensive teams to chip away at it as it comes in and/or as it sets up, go to a check, tank the hit and finish it off. This is really overlooking the fact that Thundy-T possesses humongous offensive power right off the bat. Firstly there's the question of whether it's a boosting set at all (Though personally I much prefer boosting sets, choice electrics are just lame- one wrong predict and you lose all your momentum), and even if you do know the set, that doesn't stop it from simply attacking. Basically, this is me saying its offensive presence forces a lot of switches. Wind, you talk about how it's hesitant to set up on Vap/Tenta because of scald burns+protect shenanigans, but when you consider the risk/reward at play there it becomes pretty ridiculous (dead/crippled wall vs. an unlikely though still significant chance at whittling it down). Being forced to risk key members of your team simply because if you don't it might muscle its away through most of your team is stupid. Most of the defensive pokemon in that list Wind provided are threatened with massive damage should they remain in to chip away at it (a LOT of 2HKOs, not as many OHKOs)

    Being rock-weak hurts, but its bulk and otherwise decent typing is easily enough to allow it to shrug off a hit (though probably not a second, unless it's resisted), even after SR- most defensive pokemon fail to land a 2HKO, some struggle to manage a 3HKO, (Things are a bit iffy with SR in play). This means it has enough opportunity to set up on defensive teams, and ThatMushroom's calcs show that there is no walling a +2 Thund-T, it's more a question of managing to get off damage before dying, especially since Tbolt and 2 of Grass Knot/Focus Blast/HP (Ice/Flying) is all it really needs to hit almost everything in the tier hard- there's very little 4mss to be found here

    Overall, Thundurus-T's sheer offensive firepower and concise, effective coverage make it a huge threat that is impossible to wall and therefore it should be banned
     
  6. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    I'm saying that you can't even switch in hoping to set up on Suicune/Vap/Milo/Swampert etc because Thundy can't take 2 Water moves after Stealth Rocks. You'll be stuck around 40% health after you switch in on a Scald but then you have to decide whether to set up if they fear the Thunderbolt or just outright KO the bulky water because if you set up you're dead. You could say that the Thundurus player in this situation has more control over the situation but having found myself in that situation many times I feel it does come down to mind games rather than the strength of the Pokemon itself.

    If it can severely damage your wall and lose its own life in the process, at best case the NP set did its job as a wallbreaker, at worst you only cripple the wall you had a type advantage over. If you're going to bring up the argument that it breaks walls too well to open up the way for another sweeper, that definitely has some merit but I'm not quite too sure that spells out broken.

    I'll give you the lack of 4mss but I'm honestly curious to see what Pokemon you're setting up on outside the list of green-highlighted Pokemon above. (Even in some cases, like Chesnaught who can Leech Seed stall for a bit, or Amoonguss, whose Sludge Bomb still does a lot, the walls have ways to do something back to Thundy trying to set up on them, and tbh unboosted HP Ice doesn't do much to Amoonguss)
     
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  7. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Even beyond VoltTurn, sacs and double switches (Sure the latter 2 aren't all that relevant in suspect discussions but they are a thing so w/e), it's not hard for offense to generate free turns against stall. Exploiting recovery, Thundy-T's immunities, hazard-setting/removing etc. They're usually fairly predictable too. Maybe it's a different story for more balanced teams idk, but I don't think it's possible for stall to not concede a decent amount of free turns while also playing for their own objective.

    Things that it can set up on off the top of my head can generally be grouped together as:
    • Bulky waters - As long as it comes in on anything that isn't scald, it's golden. Most water types are either easily pressured into using their recovery and concede free turns that way, or they're doing things to support the team like hazard removal or something.
    • Defensive steels- I can't think of any defensive steels that aren't set-up fodder
    • Defensive ground types- Typically require GK or HP Ice, otherwise they'd be checks, but EQ and SR represent switch-in opportunities
    • Defensive grass types- Again, requires HP, but unless they have a decent secondary STAB (like Rose, and even then you have to predict it)), they're generally incapable of doing enough to Thund
     
  8. Windblown

    Windblown sable knight

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    I'm pretty sure most things run the risk of being set up on when they're using support moves. I'd be scared of Lucario or Heracross as they can SD up on a RestTalk Lax's face, so this is hardly something exclusive to Thundurus-T.

    I will give you the two immunities, as Volt Absorb /is/ quite handy and being immune to EQ is always nice, so it gets a bit more set up opportunities than say, Crawdaunt.

    Now to respond to each of your categories of set-up fodder:
    - Bulky waters - As mentioned above, Thundurus really can't take more than 2 Scalds from any water. Ice moves are also threatening (not sure how many Ice Beams actually OHKO after rocks though). If you count being able to switch in on 3/4 of most bulky Waters' moveset threatening, then I guess it's easy to see how Thundurus would be a massive problem, but not as much as say, NP Celebi on CroCune because that's a completely hopeless scenario. (PS. don't switch in on a Mega Blastoise, I'm pretty sure that's sensible enough to say).
    - Defensive steels - I don't know if anyone is using Mega Metagross defensively, but that's definitely one you can't set up on. Mega Aggron has access to Roar and decent enough Special Defense so it won't be in too much trouble barring Focus Blast. Sp Def Jirachi is pretty much bait, but not all Jirachi are that variant and I've seen a few Ice Punches go around. Obviously it isn't really optimal on it but due to Jirachi's highly diverse movepool what's to say what's viable and what isn't? (Also U-turn, at worst, is a safe bet against Thundurus-T).

    Bronzong, Klefki, and Forretress all get absolutely massacred though, so there's that. I wouldn't set up on a Diancie because of Diamond Storm.

    - Defensive ground-types: Water/Ground types are pretty safe bets, just watch out for random Ice moves, as before. Donphan doesn't do too well cause Knock Off + Ice Shard doesn't do that much. Hippowdon can't touch it at all, so that's fair. I would never set up on Nidoqueen and you can only hit it super effectively with HP Ice. Gligar is absolutely fucked outside of U-turning out but you risk HP Ice to the face.

    - Defensive grass-types: As you said, Roserade has Sludge Bomb, but it's STAB for Rose so it's not too far-fetched that it'd be using it. So I don't think Rose counts as fodder for Thundy-T, not to mention Sleep Powder may be usable. Same goes for Amoonguss. Chesnaught I agree gets absolutely destroyed; Whimsicott is imposssible thanks to Encore. Mega Abomasnow is a no go; Tangrowth commonly runs Assault Vest and could potentially run HP Ice or Rock Slide to hurt it.

    That's 7 in this tier that pose absolutely no hurt to it. The types you mentioned are indeed the best ways to bring Thundurus-T in but it's hardly a completely safe switch-in.

    At this point I think we've agreed to disagree, so there's the case pointed out and it's just up to others whether to interpret it as way too oppressive or not.
     
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  9. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Most Amoonguss right now are Vest so Thundy doesn't have to worry about Sleep, also I haven't seen a single Agg with Roar..they're usually like Rocks/Heavy Slam/EQ/Rest or something similar to that. It also gets OHKOed by +2 LO Tbolt even with max max (which is a horrible set). I agree with Ortheore on NP being its most broken set. The thing like rips apart basically every wall in the tier at +2. I think its 2 best sets are Tbolt/Fblast/HP Ice/NP and Agility NP. That coverage is pretty insane.

    You would think that Water/Grounds would be safe..

    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 339-400 (99.4 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Seismitoad: 318-376 (76.8 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 331-390 (74.5 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Roserade: 354-419 (136.6 - 161.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jirachi: 298-352 (73.7 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 528-621 (106.2 - 124.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 367-434 (98.1 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus-T Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gallade: 368-434 (132.8 - 156.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    I don't understand why something needs to set up on 90% of the tier to be broken. It sets on the tiers most commonly used/best walls and even some offensive stuff. Forre, Chesnaught, Bronzong, Cresselia, Jirachi, Magneton, Klefki, Amoonguss, Donphan, Hippo, etc, and all it fears from fat Waters is Scald which a large majority of the time is only a 3HKO. The pressure it puts on balance and stall in terms of teambuilding is really retarded. It's not just the power it has going for it, base 101 speed (which is pretty damn good rn), 2 very useful resistances, and basically perfect coverage. You need a fat Vest user which resists Tbolt on every team (Goodra/Raikou) if you want to be safe, stuff like Machamp doesn't work. It takes 90% from +2 LO Tbolt, that shit is not reliable whatsoever. It's really centralizing, and should be banned.
     
  10. Rage.

    Rage. [Hero] and [LGI]

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    Why do you keep bringing up calcs that are 2HKOed? Seismitoad and Cress can deal reasonable damage (which is probably a kill after random thing that Thund switched into + 2* LO recoil) with Ice Beam / Punch, I give you the fact that nearly no spdef Jirachi runs Ice Punch though iirc.
     
  11. C AllStar

    C AllStar Member

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    What you failed to see is those are all very close to OHKOs. Thundurus-T is not supposed to kill everything from the start of the match(tbh none of the BL mons can do so lol). Every sweeper, including the banned ones, only sweep after their checks and counters are weakened or KOed. What differentiates Thundurus-T with other sweepers is how few its checks and counters are and how easy for them to be weakened for Thundurus-T to power through them (see the calcs posted by Mush, even the bulkiest electric resists takes heavy damage after a NP). Both Seismitoad and Cresselia have heavy 4MSS and can't really afford to run Ice Beam especially when Zygarde is banned. Without Ice Beam, both of their STABs fail to even 2HKO Thundurus-T after rocks. Thundurus-T isn't exactly bulky, but has the bulk and resistance(t-wave immunity is a plus) to set up quite a portion of the tier. Mush has pretty much summed up what it can set up on. Not to mention it can force 5050s in its favour against many mons to get chance to set up. I don't have much time these days to spend on writing about bans so I'll leave it for Mush.
     
  12. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Insane Soul
    After some discussion, we have come to the conclusion that Thundurus-T should, and will be banned from the XY UU and ORAS UU tiers, the former facing deletion after we have the first ranked stats from December.

    Thundy-T boasts an impressive coverage and enough versatility to easily find a niche in most balanced and offensive teams. Obviously, it can’t run Thunderbolt, HP Ice, HP Flying, Focus Blast (or Sludge Bomb/Wave, if you’re that crazy/scared of Florges) all at the same time, nor it can run Leftovers, Life Orb and Choice items simultaneously, but it doesn’t need to, since it has access to useful boosting moves in the form of Nasty Plot and Agility that maximize his potential and force very little coverage for Thundy-T to break defensive cores with relative ease. With the help of Lefties, it can face and beat Florges, the most notorious Sp. Defensive wall in UU, if we consider previous damage factors like passive damage and support tanking. This doesn’t mean you should hinder Thundy-T just to break Florges, unless you’re running a HO team and Thundy-T is your hole puncher, but it gives you a solid idea on this pokemon’s threatening factor.

    Against offensive teams, there are a bunch of positive factors for Thundy-T. For starters, it resists the annoying Volturn combination, nullifying Rocks damage when hit by Volt Switch and naturally resisting U-Turn. It also hits a useful speed tier of base 101, being just above the likes of legendary pixies like Victini and Shaymin, dragons like Salamence and Hydreigon and other Volturn’ers like Zapdos and Staraptor. On the other hand, it can run the Double Dance set, giving Thundy-T the opportunity to threaten the opponent’s team in the most appropriate manner. Faster pokemon? Agility makes Thundy-T the fastest pokemon in the tier after a single boost. Only slower stallbreakers left? Nasty Plot makes it a potent stallbreaker itself, killing everything in between with either BoltBeam (in this case, BoltHP) or using Focus Blast.

    With a Choice set, it can either reach a formidable speed outsped only by faster Scarfers like Mienshao and weather abusers or break almost every wall with a powerful Specs Thunderbolt. Just beware of opposing Thundy-t and other pokemon that are immune to Electric and keep the hazard control to a level that allows Thundy-T to switch in and out with more ease with Volt Switch.

    Being weak to Rocks and threatened by the more powerful priority in the tier, the latter able to act only as checks, the number of cons are severely outweighed by the number of pros in using Thundy-T. This wouldn’t be a problem if such pros didn’t reach a level that puts Thundy-T over the edge on what is necessary for the healthy development of our tier.

    Thank you all for your participation!
     
    Purpleseamonkey likes this.
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