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Greninja Vote [BANNED]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Finchinator, Nov 30, 2014.

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  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    If you wish to partake in this vote, I advise reading the entire post from top to bottom as missing out on a little detail could mislead you or provoke a mistake in submission of a vote in some way, shape, or form. In order to keep this process going strong, your cooperation and effort is necessary.

    Hello everyone. After briefly discussing with my colleague, @MetalGross, it's became evident that Greninja is a controversial pokemon in the Pokemon Online ORAS Overused metagame. Furthermore, in order to properly conclude this suspect, we are going to do the following:​
    • Use the current ORAS OU ladder on the Pokemon Online server as a Suspect Ladder of sorts by setting a minimum requirement for being able to have a vote
    • People with a sufficient ranking (probably somewhere between 1300 and 1350, but will confirm at a later date) will be able to vote on banning or not banning Greninja from OU, but every vote must be accompanied with a paragraph justifying their vote that will be sent to all of the tier leaders (@Finchinator and @MetalGross). HOWEVER, there will be a post for voting and submitting votes when the time comes; this will be explaining the entire process, so don't do anything until the time is up, you have the required ladder score, and that post and/or thread is up (anything posted, PMd, or done prior to then will be ignored)​
    • The two tier leaders will go through the votes we received and accept ones that have sufficient reasoning. The side (ban or no ban) with the majority will dictate what is done to Greninja in the future of PO's ORAS OU tier.​
    A couple extra things that I shall note here are:​
    • Anything noted above is subject to change by myself, MetalGross, or another moderator​
    • The likely deadline for laddering to the required amount is the 7th of December (around 11pm GMT-5)​
    • Any questions should be directed to MetalGross or myself, via Forum or Server PM​
    • Having a forum account is mandatory to partake. In addition, you may not be banned with any account of yours on the Pokemon Online Server or Forums​
    • Special Applications will be allowed. Details about them will be disclosed closer to or at the deadline for laddering.​

    That is all for now. This thread will remain locked until the time to confirm aliases on the ladder has came with the only exception being updates or logistics on the vote posted between now and then.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2014
    Oh So Penspin likes this.
  2. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    The ranking on the ORAS OU ladder needed is: 1300.
    The deadline for laddering is December 7th at 10PM (22:00) GMT-5 (EST).

    After 10PM EST on the 7th, I will screenshot the ladder and any further progress made will not count. Then, I will make a post that does the following:
    • Describes what your vote PM must contain.
    • Says who you must PM on these forums.
    • Gives a deadline for vote submission.
    • Explains any extra procedure for Special Applicants.
    • Shows the ladder screenshot(s).
    • Opens this thread for claiming of aliases.
    Once this post is made on Sunday and you have read everything in this thread fully and comprehend what you must do, then you may proceed to submit your vote.
     
  3. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Reminder that in about 23 hours and thirty minutes the screenshots will be posted and the laddering period will be done.
     
  4. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Hello all and welcome to the alt claim and vote submission phase of the suspect. The following things will occur now:
    • The Suspect Discussion will be closed.
    • The period for laddering will end.
    • The period for normal voting will start.
    • The period for special applicant voting will start.
    • The fate of Greninja in ORAS OU will be decided.
    In regards to the most important part of the vote, normal voting, I will post the screenshots of the ladder that has everyone above 1300 when 10pm EST passed tonight. People who have passed 1300 and wish to vote must do the following:
    • Claim their alt in this thread by 10pm EST (GMT-5) on Wednesday December 10th
    • Private Message ("Conversation") @Finchinator and @MetalGross with: A) your vote (ban, no ban, or abstain), B) a well-constructed and on topic paragraph that explains your stance (this will determine if we accept or reject your vote), and C) anything else you feel the need to say (keep this part brief) by 10pm EST (GMT-5) on Wednesday December 10th
    In regards to the special applicant voting, everyone who failed to reach 1300, but still wishes to partake in the vote must do the following:
    • Private Message ("Conversation") @Finchinator and @MetalGross with: A) why you were unable to get reqs (at least make up a lie instead of saying "I was lazy" as that won't suffice n_n), B) your vote (ban, no ban, or abstain), C) a well-constructed and on topic paragraph that explains your stance (this must be stellar if you'd like us to approve it as it'll compensate for your lack of ladder reqs), D) any alts that you had on the ladder that are under 1300 and the highest rank they were at any point during ORAS, and E) anything else you feel the need to say (keep this part brief) by 10pm EST (GMT-5) on Wednesday December 10th
    Remember to use common sense throughout this entire process, especially within your paragraph. The next post will have all of the screenshots.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2014
    Weavile likes this.
  5. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Isa likes this.
  6. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Claiming Finchinator (#90, 1315).
     
  7. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Claiming Misaka Mikoto at #110
    :^] :^] :^] :^]
    M
    ERRY CHRISTMAS
     
    Fuzzysqurl and Finchinator like this.
  8. sulcata

    sulcata cory is #1 bae Tiering Administrator Server Administrator Tiering Administrator Server Administrator

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    i claim sulcata #49
     
    buny likes this.
  9. GerMoj

    GerMoj Victory Is Ours Clan Leader

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    I claim [VIO]Appa at #5
     
  10. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    Claiming Bulbapedia #70
     
  11. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    #114 DracoNinja

    holy shit ladder was more aids than usual
     
    East's Mascot and ZoroDark like this.
  12. Lord Emvee

    Lord Emvee The Lord is Here

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    Lord Emvee
    claiming #88 aquaman
     
  13. Just Do It

    Just Do It No one cares

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    I claim [TR]Superior. #66
     
  14. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    MMMMMMMMYNAMEISISA#123
     
    ZoroDark likes this.
  15. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

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    Carl Murray #112
     
  16. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    claiming kland

    [imp]kland #20 stupid decay
     
  17. TheAardvarker

    TheAardvarker New Member

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    sugarapsa #99
     
  18. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    There are twenty three hours and ten minutes left in the submission period. There has been a shockingly low amount of votes (literally only 5 people have PMd Metal and I), so I may extend it a day if I must, but everyone who intends on voting and sees this, please PM your paragraph/vote as soon as possible so I can know if I must prolong the period by a day or not.
     
  19. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    @Celebi. @DracoNinja @[TR]Superior (fuck tagging clanfagstags) @Kland @TheAardvarker - you all have posted here, but failed to submit your paragraphs/votes.

    Thanks to a lack in vote submissions (only eight, including my own which I just sent in), I'm extending the period for submitting a paragraph until Friday December 12th at 10pm GMT-5. Remember that even if you didn't get ladder reqs, you can still submit a special app (don't be shy).
     
  20. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    [​IMG]

    Greninja is now banned!

    With an evident 11-2 pro-ban vote results, @Finchinator and I have agreed to not go through paragraphs because it's clear what the playerbase wants. We'll update the server as soon as possible. Thanks everyone for participating!

    Paragraphs:

    Anti-ban
    TheAardvarker
    C) I don't really know why this is called a "Vote". It should be called "You Can Try to Convince the Couple of Tier Leaders to Change Their Minds", but I guess that doesn't have the same ring to it. Not counting people who are objectively qualified to vote because their paragraphs are disliked subjectively is bullshit. Then there's the letting people vote who aren't objectively qualified, but that's a different problem. Greninja in particular has good reasoning on both sides for ban and no ban, but these reasons come down to an opinionated view of what is considered skill in the game. Since everything is at the core going to be based on opinion anyway, not accepting votes is really just calling some people's philosophy on gameplay bad when it works in game. Now that is out of the way, here is my lengthy paragraph.


    B) The problem with Greninja is the inability to predict its given set. If one doesn't want to be stuck rolling dice, one has to assume Greninja carries ice beam, gunk shot, low kick, dark pulse, hydro pump, grass knot, ice punch, blizzard, extrasensory, u-turn, waterfall, rock slide, shadow sneak, quick attack, and night slash. On top of this, it has to be assumed greninja has 252+ atk, 252+ spatk, and 252+ speed as one has to plan for the worst. However, as far as item, Greninja really does function best with life orb. Choice band and choice specs will not be considered as they reduce Greninja's unpredictability and come out worse even if they initially output a little more damage.

    Therefore, the question is if a Greninja with this set is too much:

    Greninja Life Orb
    285 hp
    317 atk
    170 def
    335 spatk
    178 spdef
    377 speed

    -ice beam
    -gunk shot
    -low kick
    -dark pulse
    -hydro pump
    -grass knot
    -ice punch
    -blizzard
    -extrasensory
    -u-turn
    -waterfall
    -rock slide
    -shadow sneak
    -quick attack
    -night slash


    To determine if this set is too much, it must be assessed if anything is able to switch into every move successfully and avoid getting 2hkod since on the first turn Greninja is out any of these moves can be used.

    The first thing that comes to mind is Chansey. The move that will do the most to Chansey is low kick because fighting types are supereffective against normal types.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Eviolite Natural Cure Chansey: 299 - 354 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 4.5% chance to 2HKO

    Oh no, it looks like Chansey can be 2hkoed by Greninja and is an unsafe switch in especially after stealth rock, since those pesky rocks are always up in this universe.

    But wait, the Chansey isn't dead yet. It is only dead if it gets hit by low kick again meaning this is where the infallibility of the opponent ends. If the opponent does this kind of damage it can be concluded Greninja has a positive attack nature and invested ev's. From this, Greninja's speed barrier of 377 is reduced to 343, and its special attack is reduced to 243. Well, maybe this opponent has a greninja without speed ev's and its special attack is actually 305, this has to be accounted for just to be sure. Still, the next move is not based on luck. The opponent has to decide if you will switch to a poke that can handle low kick, or if Chansey is going to stay in and use wish/softboiled. The opponent has to predict correctly or they are down to 80% and are forced to switch or fight a losing exchange. If Chansey is switched to anything from talonflame (probably bad if rocks are up) to scarf latios, or rocky helmet skarmory/landorus-t, and the opponent uses low kick it is unfavorable for the opponent. Some people would call this a coin flip, but its just not since the opponent's decision is not arbitrary. It is the same reason poker isn't completely luck.

    Therefore, for Chansey to be beaten by Greninja, it has to be a Greninja with a very particular ev spread and nature, Greninja has to use the right move on the switch as well as do maximum damage or rely on hazard damage, and then Greninja has to outpredict the opponent on the subsequent turn to gain a kill. The bottom line is a Chansey switch in to Greninja at the very worst creates a situation where a prediction has to be correct on the next turn. The majority of the time Chansey walls Greninja and throws life orb/seismic toss damage back in its face. Most of the time greninja has a nature favorable to speed rather than attack/spatk so this calc is more realistic.

    252 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Eviolite Natural Cure Chansey: 273 - 322 (38.8 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (could still be annoying after rocks)

    116 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Eviolite Natural Cure Chansey: 242 - 289 (34.4 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (Chansey walls)

    40 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Eviolite Natural Cure Chansey: 221 - 265 (31.4 - 37.6%) -- 69.1% chance to 3HKO (Chansey walls)


    0 Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick vs. 252 HP/252+ Def Eviolite Natural Cure Chansey: 213 - 252 (30.3 - 35.8%) -- 44.9% chance to 3HKO (Chansey walls)

    Another reliable switch in to Greninja is Porygon2 though there are more moves Greninja can use to potentially cause problems.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Low Kick vs. 252 HP/136+ Def Eviolite Trace Porygon2: 133 - 156 (35.6 - 41.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP/136+ Def Eviolite Trace Porygon2: 130 - 153 (34.8 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ SpAtk Life Orb Protean Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP/120 SpDef Eviolite Trace Porygon2: 134 - 160 (35.8 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    The ev's on the porygon are there to combat both defensive and specially defensive moves. I didn't tinker with it that much, there could be a better spread.

    So there are two pokemon that feasibly wall the impossible Greninja set that has every move and ev spread. However, Greninja simply cannot run this impossible set. Running Greninja effectively requires predicting the opponent's next move correctly or death with four moves at the Greninja's disposal. Greninja is very frail and can simply not take hits. If Greninja predicts a switch and the opponent doesn't switch and instead attacks, Greninja is very likely dead and at the very best crippled. It would be easier to run through things that can't significantly damage Greninja in one turn than things that can. To make things even worse, Greninja has to think about the life orb damage that every move leaves behind as well as possible switch ins carrying rocky helmets. Yes, if Greninja is able to outpredict the opponent ten times in a row and the opponent doesn't have a chansey/pory2, the opponent's team is most likely swept. However, in any game if outpredictions happen ten times the game is probably over. Many pokes just need one or two mispredictions to set up and sweep teams. Greninja needs to continuously predict correctly every turn to continue to get kills as it has no good means or setting up, tanking hits, or recovering health.

    This decision comes down to if the player believes selecting the right move in a given situation is luck or skill. Greninja has many moves and has the potential to select a devastating one most of the time. However, it has to pick this move correctly and that is easier said than done. The ban argument would be similar to banning bluffing in poker because it is unfair when the opponent can have most any card. So yeah, the perfect set with the perfect spread with okay prediction will lose Greninja after one or two mispredicts. The perfect set with the perfect spread and the perfect opponent will wreck any team with Greninja and win any game. But the perfect opponent ideally should always win anyway so the reasoning there is a little flawed when being used to back up a proban stance.

    Finally, here are the opinionated questions that drive anyone's decision on this vote:

    Is getting outpredicted by an opponent bad luck?
    My answer is no.

    Is the opponent bringing a team that counters your team bad luck?
    With so many pokes out there it is impossible to prepare for everything, so my answer is yes.

    Can Greninja beat any opponent with continuous outprediction?
    My answer is yes.

    Is prediction the most skill based part of the game?
    Again opinionated, but my answer is yes.

    Therefore, I think Greninja is one of the healthiest pokes for the tier because of its ability to make the match about the plays rather than the initial goods.

    A) My vote is no ban.

    Kland
    Reason: i like frogs. They taste amazing and frankly how am i able to slay frogs without Greninja. Ok in meaning matter, Greninja is a good mon with a great abillity which enables it's subpar offensive stats behave somewhat reasonable, it's still blantant lack of ohkos and lack of bulk make it easy to trade or switch around on it's non se moves(which are meh in damage).

    It's only good ohko i would agrue is D-nite, which is usally had to ohko. This combined with it's terrible bulk makes it quiet easy to kill, heck dnite can often switch in and kill with extreme speed before it pulls off it's attack, nite should be able to switch in twice on non ice attacks. I mean i take it your aware Greninja 2hokos most of the meta, but sadly doesn't have alot of 1hkos and it's mostly killed by anything.

    My last arguement will be about it's speed, while it's speed is nice at 120 thats excatly what it is, no surprize factor of a possible scarf, it must run lo to be a threat, so we all know greninja will sit at 377 with 4 coverage moves 2 ofhtem most likly gunk shot ice beam and the thrid most often pump, now usally 122 speed is god tier, however this metagame i find it a tad lack luster espically for a pokemon suc as Greninja which is susoped to be fast and deadly, while it can be deadly it us lacks the speed this metgame with the new mega floating around faster nd the new mega nukes at 110, we find mons out pacing greninja readily in the metagame.

    add these all together and what do you get? a good tasting strong ou mon that can be beaten. Yes it's a good mon but is it broken no
    peace out

    Pro-ban
    Bently: http://puu.sh/dlEPG/ca39b3b1a0.png

    Raducan:
    A) I had to do test corrections in order to bring my grade up before finals next week, a lot more important than this; although I almost got there!
    B) ban
    C) With ORAS allowing Greninja to take down bulky fairies, it is much more potent than it was before. Its versatility allows it to be viable on a myriad of teams structures while the wall-breaking capabilities of Greninja paves the way for the rest of its team to do what it is intended to do. The fact that it only has 4 move slots and a lot more viable moves is not really hindering its effectiveness overall, as you only need the moves to cover threats that other members of your team does not beat. An argument could be made that most Choice Scarf users could take it down quite easily due to its minuscule defenses; however, these Choice Scarf users cannot directly be switched in without dying or taking a large hit, making them sort of unreliable.
    D) I was on the alt Vika. I got kind of close at around 1282 but then I lost a couple battles and there wasn't enough time for me to climb back up.

    Weavile:
    Greninja is an obvious force in the current metagame, with a solid spot in the top 5 usage. Regardless it would be wrong to pretend that Gren doesn't have its drawbacks, it doesn't particularly like taking priority that's neutral or better and it can be worn down with hazards and its Life Orb. But let's get into what directly beats it. The six main things that spring to mind are; Tentacruel, Porygon2, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Venusaur and Scarfed Keldeo.

    Of course offensive teams aren't really going to want to run Chansey, P2 or Tentacruel so they have to go for Ferro or Keldeo. Or both. Ferrothorn loses to HP Fire, plain and simple. But it also doesn't do overly well vs Ice Beam which is run on every Gren and Ferro probably wants to switch into it more than once. Keldeo can switch in on any Gren move that anyone runs at least once and force it out with its scarfed STABs. Tentacruel is a good stop to Gren, it doesn't take a lot from anything it wants to do. But it's also Tentacruel, while it can be viable it is a very limited Pokémon and the scope of teams it fits on is just as limited. The same can be said of Porygon2, but I would argue that it has even less of a niche than Tenta. Chansey is probably the best thing on this list, it takes a bunch from Gunk Shot, and poison can be nasty with layers up, but it's a reasonably solid check. Venu takes a big chunk from Ice Beam even if already Mega'd. Of course one does have to concede that a Gren running HP Fire is not so great against Rotom-W for example. But it's simply a case of picking whatever threat your team doesn't have multiple ways to deal with to lose to with Gren.

    tl;dr I feel that with its new found Gunk Shot Gren's good checks are limited (read: P2 is shit) and only suited to certain team types (Read: Tentacruel), or are unreliable (HP Fire RIP Ferro)/limited to revenging(I guess Keld can switch in like once!!). While it can be worn down the damage you can take can be (and often is) wholly disproportionate in that time.

    Ban Frogger please.

    GerMoj:
    Hi! Now that I've met the reqs for voting, I will like to vote ban Greninja.

    Greninja from the beginning of XY was a top tier Pokémon as he has great coverage and power all alone. Thanks Protean, now all his attacks have a really nice boost making it very hard to switch. Back then Greninja wasn't such a big problem as common pivots and mons could reliable check and counter Greninja. Now with ORAS, GF decided to give Greninja the ability to plow on its formers counters thanks to its new tutors moves. Now Greninja gives a huge advantage to the player using it with its incredible coverage Greninja doesn't have reliable switch-ins unless the player is commited to sacrifice a teamslot to control Greninja with niche or subpar Pokémon such as Porygon2 due to Greninja's ability to 2HKO or OHKO almost everything in the metagame because of Protean and it's great speed. Also, Greninja can be tailored to snipe down almost every ofensive and defensive threat in the meta. Chansey can't be considered a counter as residual damage really takes her down because she is supposed to take on different threats during the match, just as Ferrothorn which status, hazards and Volt-Turn can weaken it just enough to become an unviable Greninja counter. Venusaur can't be a reliable counter due to Greninja's ability of carrying Extrassensory even though is rare and the fairies that used to handle Greninja pretty well back in XY are slaughtered by a STAB-boosted Gunk Shot. Alomomola can handle it assuming Greninja lacks hidden power Grass.

    On the checks side, even though Greninja can be checked by scarfed mons and some megas, checking Greninja as the only "failsife" way to handle him is really unhealthy as some priority fail the OHKO and Greninja can just simply switch out to the right partner to be safe and keep the momentum of the battle because of its mere pressence (noting that switching is something that Greninja punishes very well). This "failsafe" ways to handle Greninja limits teambuilding because managing Greninja decides how well a team works in the OU meta making it a centralizing mon.

    Sorry for making this kinda long, but there are many things to say about Greninja which now has become a really unhealthy and broken Pokémon in ORAS OUR

    Aurist:
    Hi ^_^

    I'm applying for a vote in the Greninja suspect, as I unfortunately didn't get the required ladder ranking in time. This is mainly due to life being too busy for me with work and christmas preparations and such. I made some attempts at laddering when I could, mainly under the alts Aurist and Jumpluff, with the former being at 1250 pre the ladder reset and the latter I think sitting at around 1200 right now. I've only really been able to get on PO on the mornings most days and that's PO's most dead period ladder-wise and I'm often the only person modding on the server for a while.

    Anyway, my vote on Greninja, should it be accepted. is Ban.

    -------

    Greninja's position in the tier of XY OU was an interesting one - it was always a top threat in the tier thanks to very good coverage, a lot of attacking power thanks to the 50% boost on all moves from Protean alongside high-BP moves and an amazing speed tier that allowed it to threaten offensive and defensive teams alike. But Greninja in XY OU had a significant number of reliable checks and counters - including top threats in the tier available for all playstyles in the tier like Azumarill, Mega Venusaur, Clefable, Keldeo, Ferrothorn, as well as lesser used but significant pokemon like Kyurem-B, Chansey, Sylveon, Blissey, Raikou, Porygon2, Tentacruel, Alomomola. Most of those it simply didn't have either the coverage to actually prevent these pokemon from stopping it, or it simply didn't have the room in its 4 moveslots to cover everything it needed to, having extremely easily applied use for Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Hidden Power Fire, Extrasensory, U-Turn, etc.

    This is no longer the case in ORAS OU. What Greninja gained in ORAS seems minimal but makes a world of difference to how it functions in the tier. With the gain of coverage moves Gunk Shot and Low Kick, Greninja gained the ability to cover everything it needs to beat almost the entire tier in one moveset. A lot of people claim that with the gain of additional coverage moves Greninja gained a worsened 4MSS than in XY - in my opinion this simply isn't the case, instead it gained the exact moves it needed to cover all the things it stopped it in addition to continuing to be able to beat the rest of the tier, all with one single set. The difference gained is that with a set of 40 Attack, 216 Special Attack, 252 Speed with Naive nature and Life Orb, with moves Gunk Shot, Low Kick, Ice Beam and Dark Pulse or Hydro Pump, the above list of checks becomes a lot slimmer and less effective:

    Spoiler
    Azumarill (OHKOed with Gunk Shot, CB AJet doesn't KO until Gren is at ~55%), Mega Venusaur (still a check bar the rare Extrasensory), Clefable (KOed by switching into any move followed by Gunk Shot), Keldeo (2hkoed only by Gunk Shot, though scarf Keldeo has become more common almost entirely for Greninja - still a check but shaky. Rare extrasensory OHKOs), Ferrothorn (koed on the switch by any of those moves -> Low Kick after SR), Kyurem-B (OHKOed by Low Kick, scarf is a check), Chansey (a check but worn down with 35-40% by Gunk Shot/Low Kick, no lefties recovery), Sylveon (koed by any move -> Gunk Shot), Blissey (2hkoed by Low Kick or Gunk Shot after SR), Raikou (KOed by any move -> Gunk Shot or Low Kick), Porygon2 (a check but 35-40% from Gunk Shot/Low Kick, no lefties recovery), Tentacruel (still a check bar rare Extrasensory), Alomomola (the only real counter in the tier and is LU, Grass Knot covers literally only it any more).

    The limiting of Greninja's reliable checks/counters in the tier from a good handful of good pokemon to 2 or 3 pokemon in the whole tier make Greninja quite overwhelming in OU, Greninja's few weaknesses are quite easily covered by some common good pokemon like Latias, Latios, Talonflame, Gengar, etc. while teams facing Greninja have such limited options that they are forced to consistently outpredict Greninja at every turn in order to wear it down and beat it, or are forced to resort to sacrificing a pokemon and attempting to revenge it. I think for these reasons Greninja should be banned from ORAS OU.

    ----

    Sorry if this is really long, it's quite hard to properly summarise Greninja's position in the tier without covering a large number of different factors and it's not as "clearly" broken as a bunch of previous threats.

    Isa:
    BAN Greninja.

    Looking at the stats of Greninja you'd expect an average Pokémon - fast but frail and not too much fire power. However its movepool combined with its ability, Protean, mixes all of that up. Giving ALL of its moves a 1.5* power boost allows it to get in tons of damage with a Life Orb equipped. It's one of the fastest Pokémon in the tier, period, and it even outspeeds some slow Scarf Pokémon (Magnezone, Tyranitar).
    With ORAS, Greninja has a great movepool as well, now having some new physical moves at its disposal, making it even more predictable. In the laddering towards reaching my obligatory 1300 score, I encountered (STAB!) Water, Ice, Poison, Dark, Psychic, Bug, Fighting, Normal (yep) and Grass moves as well as a Spikes set from opposing Greninjas - maybe Fire as well, I don't remember, but the point is that it has insane flexibility in what it hits. Switching in your "counter" if you have a decently offensive team is not possible unless you condition your opponent into letting you come in on a weaker move, but that's not a foolproof way to put it mildly.

    Greninja does have very poor bulk. However it's at least good enough not to be taken down by common priority, and being resistant to Water, Steel and Dark type priority prior to using a move is not without merit.

    For calcs, I refer to my post in the topic about Greninja.

    Again, for emphasis - BAN Greninja.

    Carlmurray:
    Hi,
    My thoughts about Greninja are:
    It's a very versatile mon who has a very good ability, it has stabs on every single move it's going to use.
    Greninja is a very fast mon, beating a lot of top tiers like Latios, Gengar etc.. The most common set is Gunk shot, Ice Beam, Hydro Pump, Dark Pulse/Extrasensory/Hp fire. Chansey could look as a safe switch in, but sometimes Greninja carries Low Kick, which make it even more unpredictable. I also think it limitates the teambuilding, forcing people to run at least a check to it.
    However, while it is true that it is very frail, it can 2hko all the OU metagame( maybe at the exception of Umbreon) , making a lot of pressure for opposing teams, thus the lack of bulk is corrected by the good ability, excellent speed.
    I do think Greninja needs to go from ORAS OU. Ban

    Lord Emvee:
    Just as Froggy was banned from LU, Greninja should be banned from OU (but on the other hand it's because Greninja is overall too good and unhealthy for the meta) During the XY Generation, Greninja had a plethora of checks which consisted of Chansey, Azumarill, Sylveon, SDef Mega Venusaur, Clefable, and more. Now that Greninja gets Gunk Shot in ORAS, the few fairy types that were once able to check it can no longer do so. This expansion in its move-pool has therefore increased its potency in the tier. Because of this extra addition, Greninja can run a pool of 4 moves that will allow it to cover pretty much everything (Hydro Pump for water STAB, Ice Beam for Dragon types or Dark Pulse for Psychic types, HP Fire for Grass/Steel or Bug/Steel or even Grass Knot/HP Grass for Vaporeon and Water/Ground mons, or Extrasensory for Fighting types, and now Gunk Shot for Fairy types which has even spurred some that are daring enough to use Low Kick for Chansey, and the list just goes on). With Gunk Shot, walls that previously have been able to switch into it will have a much tougher time against teams containing this devious ninja frog, and even though the possibilities are so vast and that it can't run more than 4 moves, 4 moves are enough as it is for it to do its job. There still remains a few solid checks and counters commonly used in the ORAS meta such as Chansey, and um... Chansey... but take this with a grain of salt, as the severely limited checks and counters that Greninja causes make team building very restrictive. Sure you can take a Pokemon and slap a scarf on it to check Greninja, but that applies for every fast threat whether on suspect or not, which is why it isn't a viable argument or solution to this problem since safe switch-ins are extremely limited. Because of the extra coverage Greninja recieves as well as total coverage, loss of decent checks/counters, and how restrictive team building has become due to Greninja, it should be removed from the OU tier to abolish an unhealthier meta-game. Send him to the shadow realm, to meet his long lost love, Froggy.

    Ban Greninja

    Finchinator:
    well i got reqs thinking it'd be a close vote and it'd matter, but it's lopsided as fuck so w/e will still vote.

    Greninja is broken in ORAS OU. As stated in my posts in the suspect discussion, only a couple megas (post-mega evolution) and scarfers can outpace the potent frog while it can 2hko 95% of the metagame. In regards to counters, not many of them are present in the ORAS OU metagame, and those pokemon that happen to check/counter Greninja aren't too practical (Alomomola, Defensive Mega Venusaur, Umbreon, etc.). Not only does this make it hard for any team to beat Greninja, but specifically offensive teams usually lack a switch-in and rely on something like Scarf Keldeo or simply foddering pokemon everytime it comes in. With this being the case, it's clear that Greninja is unhealthy for the metagame. The reason why it's now much more problematic than in XY is because of Gunk Shot, which makes bulky fairies like Clefable unable to check Greninja, and to a lesser extent Low Kick, which helps for Chansey (if it's even a bit weakened, it can be 2hko'd), Ferrothorn, etc. Overall, it's now more diverse than before, has less counters, and still outpaces the entire non-boosted/mega metagame, so I'd say Greninja is broken in ORAS OU and needs a ban.

    DracoNinja:
    I vote for ban.

    I think Greninja is broken because of its insane flexibility which allows it to punish all of its potential checks with the appropriate coverage move. The combination of its decent special attack, good speed and a fantastic ability allows Greninja to take full advantage of its extremely wide movepool and further solidify itself as a strong enabler of a sweep or sweeper itself. It does has its flaws such as not being fast enough to outrun other revenge-killers and scarfers but this also allows Greninja to equip Life Orb to catch all of its targets and do a solid chunk of damage to the rest of the metagame. Greninja's counters are also kinda scraping the bottom of the barrel since they do not provide much other team support apart from checking Greninja (Porygon2) or are simply not good because of the power creep and find themselves more often than not 2hko'd and unable to provide the support that they were put on the team for (Alomomola). If you have to run mediocre pokemon just to check a top-tier threat, it is usually a good indicator that the top-tier threat is broken. I am also a firm believer of the fact that once a pokemon has solidified itself in a metagame to the point where there is no reason not to use it, it should be banned and currently there is no reason not to use Greninja as an offensive water or revenge-killer.

    Lord Gucci:
    A) I had reqs about two weeks ago, but then I went on tilt and did not realize 1300 was the cutoff.

    B) Ban

    C) Greninja has very few counters, and they are either not very common or not viable in OU. The only real counters are Alomomola and Vaporeon that could actually be used in OU without hindering teambuilding too much. Every other Pokemon either gets OHKO'd or 2HKO'd by a combination of Life Orb + Protean. Its unpredictability in addition to its power makes it very hard to play against. Although it does have some staple moves on every set such as Hydro Pump and Ice Beam, the other two moves can give it enough coverage to deal with the normal switch-ins. Ferro loses to HP Fire, fairies lose to Gunk Shot (which is a staple now thanks to ORAS), Chansey won't like taking Low Kicks, Mega Venu loses to Extrasensory, etc. On top of its power and predictability is its speed. While not the fastest thing in the tier, it does outspeed a majority of OU, with Talonflame being the only Pokemon that could potentially run a higher speed stat if it did not have priority Brave Bird. All of the other Pokemon that outspeed Greninja need to mega evolve first. Greninja can literally sweep unprepared teams with ease and force good players to have to play around it for the aforementioned reasons, and that's why I believe Greninja should be banned.

    D) -blasterjaxx- (My highest peak was around 1415, good enough for 4th on the ladder at the time)

    [TR]Superior.:
    He puts pressure on almost every Offensive team and also some Balanced/Stall teams which lack his checks.
    Since he received both Gunk Shot & Low Kick, it can go through his old main checks (Fairys) and do some serious damage vs bulky checks as well (Chansey). He is mainly the reason why I play Stall lately, since he can go through a lot of Offensive OU mons.
    His moveset isn't always as easy to predict, and he keeps his strong role as a excellent Late Game Sweeper.

    I'd say a ban for Greninja will make the Oras OU Meta game a lot healthier.
     
    Last edited: Dec 13, 2014
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