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[Monotype] Greninja Suspect

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by sulcata, Jan 19, 2015.

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  1. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the effects of Greninja on the Monotype metagame and the possibility of banning it. Post intelligently based off of experience in the metagame. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions. i.e. if you play Monotype at all, then post.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Greninja as well as their impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame, otherwise it will go to a vote. Happy suspecting.
     
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  2. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Hi,
    Greninja can be played in Monodark and Monowater.
    So here's what I think about it:

    In MonoDark :
    It is one of the fastest Dark pokemon, and equiped with Life Orb it can be the biggest addition to this type.
    Dark is usually countered by Fairy, Fighting, Bug.

    So basicaly, Greninja is a winning condition there, and the set it could possibly use is:
    Naive 6 atk 252 spe atk 252 speed with Gunk shot, Hidden power fire, Extrasensory, Ice beam.

    Greninja will force out always something, and everything gets 2hkoed anyway, so in MonoDark, definetely broken.

    In MonoWater :

    I think that what Monowater lacked to break stuff life Ferrothorn, and here it comes.
    Water is one of the best defensive types in the game, so it needs a lot more pressure to tear down stuff like Grass, Dragon, other Waters.

    Greninja needs to eliminate Ferrothorn, so Hidden power fire is needed again, Ice Beam for the Dragons, Grass knot for the likes Gastrodon, and maybe Low Kick to hit harder monosteel and Kyurem, or Gunk shot for Azumarill again.

    Because it's about monotyping, Greninja doesn't need at all to use moves like Hydro Pump/Dark Pulse, its job consist to eradicate primary counters for its own Monotyping.

    In my opinion, Greninja is way too broken for the Monotype metagame, and should be banned.
     
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  3. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Copy-Pasted from the Monotype General Discussion Thread.
    Now that I look at it Greninja's ability Protean is almost against the spirit of Monotype. It does not have coverage instead it always has a STAB move which combined with LO makes it a one-Mon wrecking crew. It has an immensely useful movepool which is also hard to predict and predicting its movepool from scratch in Monotype is even more of a tedious job. ORAS having given it two lethal moves- Gunk Shot and Low Kick increased its potency to an all time high. Pokemon like Mirror-Coat Gastrodon may work out against non Grass Knot using Gren, however all of us cannot run MonoGround and/or MonoWater teams just to atmost check Gren. Sap Sipper Azu also gets nearly OHKOd by Gunk Shot. Offensive Pokemon like T-Flame or Keldeo-R can only revenge kill it which means it becomes even more fatal over offensive teams which as mentioned above are highly common in Monotype (Even I myself use such teams). Ferrothorn was able to check Gren earlier in XY Monotype but even then HP Fire was almost always a common move on it and now Ferro gets 2HKOd by Low Kick enhanced by LO (Which is the most common item on Gren). Also when pitted against Scarf-Greninja (Even though rare) it is only possible for a pokemon with extremely strong priority to RKill it which makes Gren an extremely strong offensive presence when used in the right hands and with the right set. My entire Monotype teambuilding for the ladder is nowadays mainly centred around destroying Gren (which is nearly impossible). And almost whenever I ladder at Monotype I find a Greninja in about 1 in every 3 fights (Being #2 in the usage stats this is expected). There also is no viable counter to Greninja which makes it seem like a new Genesect.
    From an experimental point of view I took a 212 Sp.Atk/40 Atk/252 Speed Naive Greninja with LO with Gunk Shot/Low Kick/Surf/Grass Knot in a MonoWater team and technically controlled the flow of most games using just Greninja which was backed up for strong teammates, such was the offensive presence for Greninja.
    Pardon me for being lengthy but I actually tried to prove Greninja is still ok in Monotype but after going through nearly so many battles I have come down to this that Greninja should be banned.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2015
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  4. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    As Carl said, i believe that Greninja plays a very effective role in getting rid of the issues that water and dark types teams have, you basically don't need water and dark moves respectively in water and dark teams since the other partners take care of that, and it can simply have stab and effectively its typing changes as well, so in a way Greninja is your 122 speed 103 spatk/95 atk pokemon that can act as a wild card for dark and water, giving those types a rather unfair advantage since its type changes at will coupled with a very high speed and good enough spatk/atk.
    Now, it's been established in the OU suspect for Greninja that it 2hkoes if not ohkoes everything in the tier except a few pokes, i will not build on that, but i would just want to point out that those pokes are only present in 2 or 3 types and are rather uncommon or the type itself is, (Vaporeon/alomomola, and chansey/porygon2), outside of those, not many things can switch in on Gren, and because of its speed, it limits the options you can run on your other types and sometimes are forced to use scarfed mons , and scarf is usually not the optimal item for them.
    This is why i think Greninja should be banned.
     
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  5. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Ok, so scarf Greninja isn't really a thing outside maybe the one time it'll catch you by surprise. Greninja is strong with STAB on every move, but without Life Orb it's pretty middling in the damage it can deal out. I wouldn't have called HP Fire "common" at any point, but that's just me nitpicking.

    The issues I have with Greninja are mostly the same as people found in OU. It's an extremely dominant force against teams ranging from bulky offense to balanced to hyper offense. Normally you'd think switching in to a coverage move you expected would leave you relatively unscathed, but more often than not Greninja will take off a huge chunk of health before switching out. As @gengar17 said, the distribution of proper walls and counters is almost solely limited to Normal and Water, while Fairy, Poison, Steel, Grass, etc. only have walls for very specific sets. Tyranitar, Swampert, Empoleon, etc. can easily back Greninja up with Stealth Rock support (for Greninja to clean end game) and great bulk and typing, making the fundamentally weak argument of "you can revenge kill it" even weaker. Monowater especially seems to have quite a few Pokemon to get around Greninja's checks with Electric immunities, Grass neutralities, and general overall bulk. I don't think making a team around defeating Greninja is the right way to go about it; double-switching and predicting double switches can keep up pressure on Greninja and will gradually wear it down, putting its team in awkward positions where you can force sacrifices. Although that Greninja can force such risky predictions is just another indicator of how powerful it is. Personally I'd be for a ban.

    Also just to address something I've seen in discussions here and on Smogon, "spirit of Monotype", isn't something that is considered when banning something or not due to its completely arbitrary nature. I guess it works as a nice slogan, but it doesn't hold up if it goes to an actual vote.

    I realize some of my points may be a little vague. I'll elaborate if anyone disagrees.
     
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  6. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    Hiya there.
    So yeah, greninja. That thing is like a Genesect, but with better coverage and far better speed in trade of the U-turn. Its one of the most potent walbreakers today in monotype, the fact which in monotype you don't need predict make it even more broken than it ever was in OU (your opponent is monoflying? spam ice beam; your opponent is monodragon? spam ice beam; monofairy opponent? take care of klefki with other teammates and spam gunk shot; monograss opponent? get down ferrothorn first and spam gunk shot, btw even ferro isn't safe because Low Kick is a thing; and so on...) The ammount of monos which Ninja treaths is huge.

    It seems the most common set is:
    Greninja @ Life Orb
    Naive Nature
    40 Atk / 216 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Ice Beam
    - Gunk Shot
    - Low Kick / HP Fire (Low Kick preferred)
    - Dark Pulse / Hydro Pump / Extrasensory (depending in the mono ur playing, if monowater get Dark Pulse, if monodark get Hydro Pump, Extrasensory for them fightings).
    This set covers the most huge array of pokemons.

    Now into the counter/checks which are actually used on mono: it seems Chansey, Porygon 2, Tentacruel, Klefki (again not HPump greninjas), Mega Venusaur (need mega evolve first) and maybe Umbreon (it is still even used?) can take on it. Scarf Keldeo and Scarf Kyurem-B can switch 1 time and threaten it. If for some reason Greninja runs Extrasensory suddendly Tentacruel, Megasaur, Keldeo are 2HKO'ed / OHKOed too.

    So, while i agree Greninja defenses are very bad, its offenses and its speed very much makes for it, and in the end its too much for monotype to handle. So ya, Ban it
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2015
  7. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

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    I've been neglecting this for so long but better late than never!

    I think Greninja should be banned in Monotype because:
    • It has a great speed tier and great ability with a myriad of coverage moves, making it an effective wallbreaker on offensive teams and very hard to maneuver around.
    • In Monotype (and when it was in OU), it can run sets according to what the team is weak against. For example: Since Ferrothorn works well against Mono-Water teams, Greninja can run Hidden Power Fire to dispose of it before it does any real harm (like what @Carlmurray said).
    • It has very few switch-ins and checks. It can easily dispose of most of its checks with the right coverage move (and whatever it can't handle, the other 5 members will most likely be able to handle it).
     
  8. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Ok, going to close this before people can claim it's gone on for over a month.

    Nobody has really voiced any opposition to banning Greninja, while many others have, so Greninja will be banned from Monotype next time tier updates are issued. On a side note the suspect posts seem to be getting a bit better. There's still room to improve, but it's probably just the awkward nature of applying "checks and counters" to Monotype.

    @Crystal Moogle pls
     
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