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Suspect Discussion: Diancite

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by JeyTheGrey, Jan 21, 2015.

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  1. JeyTheGrey

    JeyTheGrey PWRFL!! YOU NEED A REVIVE!

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    Discuss the possibility of Diancite being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    This thread will be used to discuss Mega Diancie's effect in the metagame. Talk about the different movesets, team support, its best checks / counters and its viability. State clearly, if you want Mega Diancie to be banned in the future from the ORAS UU tier or not [with proper reasoning, of course].

    Remember that everybody is entitled to his/her opinion and arguments among players can be shared, as long as you're able to back it up with either knowledge or experience. Do not base your post on the opinion of somebody else completely! Theorymonning is not a valid argument, avoid Theorymonning in your post!

    If no clear agreement can be found after the discussion, a vote will be held!
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
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  2. Firer

    Firer Owner

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    Okay, so first things first... I believe this thing definetly needs to banned...
    That being said let me start by giving its bread and butter set which basically everyone runs, being:

    Diancie @ Diancite
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Protect
    - Moonblast
    - Earth Power
    - Diamond Storm

    Not many other options here, I guess Sharpen > over Protect, while looking somewhat gimmick defeats Florges alot easier at the cost of having a harder Mega Evolution and now having Mienshao and some other scarfers as a check. So the problem about this thing is the combination of Speed, Power and Coverage... Let me list a few pokes (or should I rather say THE few pokes, that can switch into it):

    -Jirachi, comes into mind first, but fully sdef takes 40% from EP and is slower so little prior damage actually makes this loose... Also the lack of an reliable coverage makes this one only viable for the first time, maybe the second time Diancie comes in... Scarf takes around 60%, so better hope you predict it right, also Protect, but more on that later... While prediction can go both ways, the problem here is that a wrong prediction of yours will leave you in a very weak position, while a correct one will only force Diancie out

    -Bronzong and Amoonguss. Only real and reliable counters I can think of... The problem is that theyre completly unviable in the tier outside of countering Diancie, which is another huge problem I encountered, while trying to deal with Diancie... Everything that doesnt die to it either sucks, cant do much back or lacks a reliable recovery

    -Bulky Waters Checks really, take around 40% from Moonblast... The problem is the Diancie player doesnt have to predict the switch in other then with Jirachi, since Moonblast will be the main move its using in most situations... At this point the bulk of Diancie kicks in, which allows it to survive one attack and since its faster, little prior damage allows it to get past these as well. Only Tentacruel and Empoleon can take Moonblasts and both are weak to EP and cant ohko back (xept the rather odd flash cannon)

    I really cant thing of much else atm... Now if the lack of counters would be the only problem that'd be fine, but its also incredibly hard to check AND gets alot of switch in opportunities, because of its good typing and magic bounce. Magic Bounce makes it win against most suicuide leads (Azelf, Infernape etc), puts alot of pressure on stall, since they cant toxic or set up hazards safely and just got alot of general utility. So having mentioned the switch in oppurtunities it gets via MBounce and legitimate bulk, let me come back to counters...

    Lets looke at choice scarfers first:

    Hydreigon, prolly the most common atm, absoloutely looses against Diancie being a free switch in and getting ohkod, due to its resistance / immunity to Dragon, Dark, Bug and Fire... Now for the rare occasion it should run flash cannon, that can be easily scoutet by Protect, and then leave you very prone to being set up, cause being locked into that sucks

    Mienshao, one of my favorite scarfers, gets rekt by Protect. She Protects, you use HJK, you loose 50% and next turn he switches to a ghost or something... Since scarf mienshao runs reckless, this will lead you to die very soon... If she protects and you dont use HJK, she simply uses Moonblasts and ohkos you, since nothing else of Mienshao hurts her... Now if you were bluffing a scarf and use Stone edge when she protects, and then hjk, you are sadly outsped and ohkod anywhays

    Flygon, looses to protect as well, only move that can touch her is EQ and you dont want to be locked into that when they got a Murderkrow or something...

    Salamence, same thing as above

    Jirachi, only thing thatll touch her is Iron Head, which again is scoutet, making you loose momentum or forcing you to double switch... Now I guess I could continue like this forever, telling you how Protect ruins scarf users, so lets go to faster pokes

    Azelf: Cant do much to it, at least not OHKO, but is OHKOd itself

    Serperior: Yaays a check

    Mega Lopunny: Hates Protect, cant even ohko and gets ohkod back...Only needs abymasmall prior damage tho, which would be rather easy with most other pokes, but Mega Diancie actually gets surprisingly many free switch ins with Mbounce, also preventing hazards with it, or forces you to play like a retard only using attacking moves, because youre to scared to do anything else

    Crobat: Cant touch, gets ohkod... That fucking typing of Diancie...

    Weavile: Ice punch deals like 60% and it gets ohkod

    Alakazam: Hp steel alakazam anyone? Psychich deals like 70% iirc and it gets ohkod... Sash beats it 1v1

    Mega Pidgeot: Diancie is actually a pretty good counter to that guy, one of the best even I'd say


    Since the speed creep, other then in ou, didnt hit 110 yet in uu, there isnt much more that can outspeed this guy... I am getting tired now, so let me close this off by saying that she is just unhealthy for the metagame, because she is really hard to deal with for balanced teams, due to the lack of reliable counters and checks, while putting alot of pressure on more defensive teams via its ability and mixed attacking stats and the few dedicated counters it does have only have a niche in countering her, and are pretty bad or unreliable outside of that
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2015
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  3. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Even though Diancie is pretty unhealthy for the metagame, I would like to point out that some pokemon can easily switch in anytime, and scare it out:

    First off,
    -Porygon 2 is just the perfect counter to Mega Diancie, yet nobody plays it, takes only 30% from both sides, can use recover and discharge to paralyse.
    - Brozong is also a very good counter being able to take everything, force the switch and SR, or just kill with Gyro Ball
    -Weezing is very underated in UU, it can pretty much come into all Diancie attack, use pain split, sludge bomb etc.
    - Suicune takes 40% from Moonblast, and will eventualy win, but I'll put that more like a Check than a counter.

    It's really obvious to know what Diancie is gonna do to be honnest, it's really expected, it movepool isn't enough large to be hard to counter.
    However, it is kinda overcentralizing, and I do believe that it needs to go, even though it's already moving to OU
     
  4. JeyTheGrey

    JeyTheGrey PWRFL!! YOU NEED A REVIVE!

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    @Chowder please give proper reasoning!
    I'd like you all to consider that Mega Diancie does have the ability "Magic Bounce", preventing status inflicted by Thunder Wave, Will-o-Wisp, Toxic, spore moves, Confuse Ray and Leech Seed. It also prevents any form of getting faced out, unless the rarely seen Red Card (blocks Whirlwind, Roar... and is immune to Dragon Tail). It has 110 base speed, therefore outspeeding the majority of the metagame (scarfed Pokemons exluded).

    I'd also like to add that it gets access to Calm Mind, effectively boost its special attack and special defense. I used this set a lot on the ladder and it can sweep teams just after a Calm Mind.

    Diancie @ Diancite
    Trait: Clear Body
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Moonblast
    - Earth Power
    - Ancient Power (yes, it works awesomely with CM)

    Even though Diancie in regular form is slow, its typing is perfect for a lot of set ups (/free mega evolution), such as Pokemon locked into fire type attacks (Victini), Pokemon locked into Knock Off, (Krookodile, Weavile, Crawdaunt), Pokemon locked into a dragon type attack (Hydreigon, Salamence), Defensive Walls that are unable to touch it or are outsped in the first place (Arcanine, Salamence, Crobat,Mega Pidgeot, MegaSableye, Forretress, Chesnaught, Donphan...).
    Yes, it has a limited movepool and is somewhat predictable, but it gets nearly perfect coverage, combined with 160 special (and physical) attack.
    It also completely crushes stall single handedly! (preventing hazards from going up, can't get roared out, can't get statussed)

    -Porygon 2 is definitely no counter, I use P2 as a set up fodder (Twave/Toxic immunity, CM boosts spdef, reducing P2's attacks power)
    -Weezing loses against CM version, apart from clear smog, it can't touch it for good, and Ancient Power is a 2 hit ko against defensive variants after Rocks.
    -Suicune facing a +1 MDiancie can hope for a scaldburn or crit, otherwise gets 2 hit ko'd
    -Snorlax, unless Assault Vest, gets 3 hit ko'd after +1, so has to be careful when switching in. Also, it can only hope to para with Body Slam, because defensive EQ doesn't kill and banded Snorlax has a good chance of getting 2 hit ko'd by Moonblast at +1.
    -Florges (the most used Pokemon in UU) becomes setup fodder with CM, as Diancie almost always 2 hit ko's defensive variants at +1. Also Florges must Wish/Protect to effectively regain health, which gives MDiancie more opportunities to set up CM's

    Best checks / counters to this set are:
    -As mentionned, Bronzong is a great counter, taking all its hits with ease (even the rare HP Fire) and killing with Gyro Ball in return
    -Faster Pokemons, such as MSceptile, MBeedrill, Jirachi (scarfed) are all Pokes, that are able to take a hit (depending which one) and kill in return.
    -Vaporeon, Milotic, (MBlastoise, Suicune), bulky Water Types in general fare well against MDiancie, as they can hit it hard with water type attacks (mainly Scald), getting a burn and taking a hit with ease.
    -Priority, such as Bullet Punch and Aqua Jet are very good against it (Lucario, Metagross and Crawdaunt), Bullet Punch from Machamp is not even an OHKO after rocks (lol)

    Diancies Attacks (Earth Power and Ancient Power have the same damage output on fire types):

    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 344-408 (100.8 - 119.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 160-190 (44.6 - 53%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 241-285 (59.6 - 70.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 24+ SpD Florges: 168-198 (46.6 - 55%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 144 HP / 176+ SpD Snorlax: 195-229 (39.2 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 250-295 (47.7 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 416-492 (108.3 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 292-344 (96.3 - 113.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Mega Diancie Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 24 SpD Forretress: 168-198 (47.5 - 56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Mega Diancie Ancient Power vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 276-326 (72 - 85.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Swampert: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Milotic: 223-264 (56.7 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 200 HP / 56+ SpD Vaporeon: 243-286 (53.8 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 232 HP / 252+ SpD Alomomola: 310-366 (58.6 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 246-290 (66.3 - 78.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 411-484 (107 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Mega Alakazam: 283-334 (109.2 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Hydreigon, Chesnaught, Weavile, MLopunny, RotomH, Chandelure, Darmanitan all die without having set up yet.

    Diancie taking hits:

    252+ Atk Machamp Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 180-212 (74.6 - 87.9%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 126-148 (52.2 - 61.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    4 SpA Suicune Scald vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 98-116 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 93-111 (38.5 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 70-84 (29 - 34.8%) -- 7.6% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Adaptability Mega Beedrill Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 196-232 (81.3 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 77-90 (31.9 - 37.3%) -- 86.8% chance to 3HKO
    252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 113-133 (46.8 - 55.1%) -- 69.1% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 218-260 (90.4 - 107.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Blastoise Hydro Pump vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 182-216 (75.5 - 89.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    80 Atk Crobat Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 59-70 (24.4 - 29%) -- 99.7% chance to 4HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 140-165 (58 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 204-240 (84.6 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 272-324 (112.8 - 134.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Darmanitan Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 214-252 (88.7 - 104.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Reckless Mienshao High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 229-270 (95 - 112%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Diancie: 302-364 (125.3 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO



    Also: You feel like the most crispy, delicious, crunchy human being on earth when you get the boost with Ancient Power (and it mostly means GG) :]

    Hope this helps for future comments and opinions!
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2015
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  5. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Alright, so Mega Diancie is pretty straightforward in the distribution of its stats. Switch regular Diancie's defensive stats with MDiancie's offensive stats, while giving it a small boost in all stats, bar HP, and dumping the rest to give it a great Speed, equaling Mega Gallade's. What you get is an offensive monster that probably misses its spot in Ubers only due to middling HP, that steals some shine from its defenses, and the inability to have a solid movepool on both physical and special spectrums, instead having to rely on a mixed movepool of three nonetheless great moves, that still force it to run an hindering nature on one of its stats, which usually ends up being Defense (Hasty) or SDefense (Naive).

    About the process of mega evolving, Diancie has to sacrifice its best stats in regular form to become a potent sweeper and/or stallbreaker. This means you'll have a Diancie that is slow and doesn't hit hard at all to begin with, a problem that Gallade or Sableye dont face, since they're in their natural field by investing in their best stats right off the bat. However, mega evolving gets much easier if you factor in the great typing it possesses against most offensive threats, and the preference it gives to Protect as not only a safe mean to mega evolve, but as a great scouter, just like Beedrill and Lopunny (this one uses Fake Out, but still, it stops the opponent from outspeeding and damaging it before mega evolving).

    Clear Body is initially useful to not get nerfed by Sticky Web and Intimidate users, but it loses its usefulness if we consider that the next time Diancie switches in, as a Mega, it will lose Speed unless the hazards were removed through Defog or Rapid Spin and that the most common Intimidate users all get defeated fairly easily by Diancie (Salamence, Arcanine, Hitmontop). But then we get to crème de la crème of MDiancie, which is Magic Bounce. This eliminates from the equation most means stall possesses to stop offensive threats, be it in the form of hazards, status, leech seed, phazing, encore and protect spam. You're better off praying for your bulky Water to burn with Scald or you're losing a few things to this.

    Despite the usefulness of Magic Bounce, a common misassumption is that MDiancie has to stop hazards due to its ability, to better support the team. This is not quite true, since the offensive nature makes it the one that needs to be supported to truly excel. You should only deal with Diancie if you're certain your opponent's lead won't be a SR setter, because most of these end up beating MDiancie in 1v1, thanks to their poweful super effective STABs. MDiancie's ability is there to keep the damage of itself, and no one else's.

    About the 4th moveslot, Mega Diancie has more flexibility than meets the eye. Protect is the standard option for it, as it ends up being the most useful in the generality of games, allowing for a safe mega evolution and scouting of faster pokemon (which are usually scarf, since faster non-scarf that can really threaten Diancie are other ORAS megas.), but there are others. Calm Mind makes it even more of a threat to stall and bulky offense, while Rock Polish detonates offense fairly easily, should they lack common SE priority.

    All in all, the main problem with MDiancie is that it needs a mere tweak to its 4th move to suit it to the playstyle you want Diancie to fare the best, while not sacrificing any of its viability against other playstyles due to it possessing the already mentioned amazing traits: Speed and coverage for Offense, Magic Bounce and coverage for Stall, above average defenses and coverage for Balanced, along with the aforementioned before. It is very difficult to prepare for it and the best player with no proper answer to MDiancie will always lose to the second best with MDiancie, by saving it and switching it in on its common resistances/immunity. Overall, it is too threatening for every playstyle and limits teambuilding and common way of playing in a manner that shouldn't be imposed to the players anymore, so Diancite will be banned from the ORAS UU tier. Thank you all for you participation!
     
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