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Suspect Discussion: Sablenite

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by meeps, Jan 23, 2015.

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  1. meeps

    meeps Well-Known Member

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    meeps
    drawing later

    Discuss the possibility of Sablenite being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Mega Sablenite's effect in the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, its best partners/team support and potential checks & counters. State your opinion on whether you think Sablenite should be banned or if it should stay in the ORAS UU tier.

    All opinions are welcome to be presented, and arguments may be shared between players, as long as you back it up with knowledge and experience and refrain from making your entire points based on responses to others. Theorymonning is not a valid argument and anyone who bases their opinion in it risks being infracted.

    Do not forget that if a consensus can't be found after this discussions reaches its end, a vote will be held.

    Also note this is for banning Sablenite specifically, do not discuss impacts of non-Mega Sableye in the tier as it won't be banned.
     
  2. Insane Soul

    Insane Soul Griffith did nothing wrong.

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    Solid arguments guys! Sablenite was already banned in the server, but might as well post a justification for it.
    Sableye was already a very solid UU pokemon, due to its ability to halt a large number of physical offensive threats with WoW and block most attempts the opponent might try in team supporting, be it in the form of hazards, clericism and others. It is for me, as many others, one of the most annoying pokemon to deal with in every tier it is eligible to use.

    With the arrival of ORAS, this set was outshined by a complete change of roles that its Mega Evolution brought. At the cost of Speed, MSableye becomes much bulkier and more threatening offensively, with 85 stats on both spectrums, and the new Foul Play and Knock Off mechanics to make a side effect of annoyance actual damage dealing. But that's not how it went.
    Due to Magic Bounce, Sableye traded the ability to annoy with the ability to not be annoyed itself, becoming the most threatening CM sweeper of the current metagame. Unlike Diancie, it can confront every SR setter and win in a 1v1 (not advised vs Empoleon, due to Scald burns, which affect survivability, and a way to deal with its own hazards in Defog). This is possible even without Prankster because, due to Mega Evolution mechanics, it gets the stats of MSableye with its regular form's ability. Simply put: priority WoW/Recover/Calm Mind/Taunt and so on. This ability is also MSableye's most prominent trait, because the player needs to be extra careful and attribute undeserving amount of merit to prediction, before using a passive/status move, since the opponent can just switch in MSableye with little to fear and bounce it off. Priority and higher speed are irrelevant when you can tank an incommensurable amount of hits and setup on a big majority of the tier.

    However, MSableye is not without its faults, like any other pokemon. Gen 6 brought it an actual weakness, one to a very common type in all tiers, that happens to be shared by two of most prominent pokemon in the tier, in their respective styles: Florges for defense and Diancie for offense. Both of these pokemon have a relatively easy time switching in on MSableye, with Florges being able to heal a burn and recover itself and Diancie fearing only continuous Dark Pulses/Shadow Balls with switches from MSableye out of the field. This becomes harder if we consider the number of Diancie switch-ins is scarce. In fact, both of these are part of the reason why Sableye runs Shadow Ball: so it doesn't get scared out so easily and can actually deal some damage. Moonblast has a small chance to 2HKO, but trying to beat Florges this way is close to suicide. It is more likely you get critted and your Sp. Atk keeps dropping than threatening Florges with this tactic.
    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Florges Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 134-162 (44 - 53.2%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO
    0 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 52-63 (14.4 - 17.5%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 0 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Florges: 78-93 (21.6 - 25.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 320-380 (105.2 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Diancie Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 216-254 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 78-93 (32.3 - 38.5%) -- 2.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (29 - 34.8% with a neutral nature)
    +1 0 SpA Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Diancie: 117-138 (48.5 - 57.2%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (43.5 - 51.4% with a neutral nature)
    Aromatisse stands a similar chance, and Slurpuff will always beat MSableye in a 1v1, but ends up being burned without Safeguard and taking little damage if Shadow Ball isn't used over Dark Pulse.

    But outside Fairies, what else can deal with MSableye?
    Very, very little. One of the best ways to deal with it would be Fire-type hard hitters or pokemon with Substitute and setup moves, to avoid getting crippled by WoW and using that turn as an opportunity to surprise the opponent. Pokemon like Mega Lopunny, Banded Crawdaunt and Victini hit extremely hard and don't have many switch-ins to check them but they fear WoW and Dark Pulse, respectively, so the player must be certain that he will switch in on a Calm Mind or Recover. Victini needs some prior damage, however, and it will fall to +1 Dark Pulse while Crawdaunt needs immediate power and Crabhammer to truly threaten it, and it will still be unable to KO and get crippled throughout the rest of the game.
    252 Atk Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 270-320 (88.8 - 105.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 226-267 (74.3 - 87.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Arcanine Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 153-183 (50.3 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Entei Sacred Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 153-180 (50.3 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sableye: 210-248 (69 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (34.5 - 40.7% when burned, which means it will KO after)
    +1 0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 338-398 (99.1 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    +1 0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Arcanine: 135-160 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +1 0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Entei: 144-169 (38.8 - 45.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +1 0 SpA Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Crawdaunt: 91-108 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after burn damage
    The most prominent special hitters in the tier cannot switch in for free, and 50/115 defenses are very hard to break through if you consider nothing can hit it super effectively, besides what i already mentioned, and that MSableye will most likely be at +1 by the time you switch in something on it, due to its ability to setup on a lot of the tier.
    252 SpA Choice Scarf Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega: 184-217 (60.5 - 71.3%)
    252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega: 239-282 (78.6 - 92.7%)
    252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega: 160-188 (52.6 - 61.8%)
    252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%)
    252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye-Mega: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%)
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 165-196 (54.2 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO a (59.5 - 70.3% with Modest nature)
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 110-133 (36.1 - 43.7%) (39.8 - 47.3% with Modest nature)
    252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 127-150 (41.7 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (54.2 - 64.1% with Life Orb, 62.1 - 73.3% with Specs)
    252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 174-205 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (74.3 - 87.5% with LO, 85.1 - 100.6% with Specs)
    252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 84-100 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (35.8 - 42.7% with LO, 41.7 - 49.3% with Specs)
    252 SpA Chandelure Fire Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Sableye: 117-138 (38.4 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (50 - 58.8% with LO, 57.2 - 67.4% with Specs

    As such, besides not giving the player immediate momentum, and as such not fitting easily in every playstyle, having a common weakness, being prone to crits in the long run and still fearing Scald as a method of wearing down faster, MSableye forces a very limited strategy from the opponent and becomes nearly unstoppable with the right team support, be it in the form of Full Stall or Bulky Steels to deal with Fairies. It overcentralises the metagame to a point where you need to predict perfectly with your hazards and hope they stay on the field to have some sort of punishment for MSableye switching in as it pleases and a very hard hitter that can be afforded to be crippled trying to take this thing down. For these reasons, and others that i might have misses, the item Sablenite is banned from the ORAS UU tier.
     
    E.T. likes this.
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