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February/March ORAS LU Tier & Potential Suspects

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Feb 1, 2015.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    So as expected after a 3-month tier period and a change of ranked stats to 1100, things are changing up big time. We essentially have a brand new tier here and little idea of what the meta is about to look like, with practically half the relevant tier leaving for UU and gaining some big threats. It would take an essay to cover all the changes here so we're just gonna have to take it bit by bit.

    It's going to be a bit hard to tell what is and isn't going to be suspectable for the moment. I want people to think especially about the previous potential suspects in Slurpuff, Knock Off, Sharpedonite, Honchkrow, and how they all fare in this brand new meta, as well as the new pokemon to the tier.

    There should be a ladder reset also happening with this tier change for LU. Next time there's a tier change things shouldn't be so drastic, because we don't have ORAS changes and ranked stats changes.

    RIP cased RIP proof

    -----

    Too many pokemon listed to even bother adding their pictures

    ORAS UU->ORAS LU

    Absol
    Aerodactyl
    Aggron
    Ampharos
    Cloyster
    Mawile
    Rhyperior

    ORAS LU->ORAS UU

    Alomomola
    Azelf
    Beedrill
    Celebi
    Cresselia
    Empoleon
    Gallade
    Gligar
    Pidgeot
    Raikou
    Rotom-H
    Serperior
    Vaporeon

    ORAS LU->ORAS OU

    Diancie

    ORAS NU->ORAS OU
    Lopunny

    ORAS NU->ORAS LU

    Amoonguss
    Dragalge
    Glalie
    Golbat
    Hippowdon
    Klefki
    Magneton
    Sceptile
    Tangrowth
    Wobuffett
    Xatu

    ORAS LU->ORAS NU
    Abomasnow
    Banette
    Durant
    Kabutops
    Kingdra
    Politoed
    Shaymin
    Shuckle
    Smeargle
    Starmie
    Yanmega
     
  2. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Aboos caboose.jpg

    Gonna leave this here for now and reserve actual judgement for later(probably much later with Rhyperior). Should be a fun tier change.

    Seriously though Rhyperior stomps Honch and Slurpuff at the same time. Plus MAggron OHKOs slurpuff pretty easily as well, while filter shuts down Honchkrow's options for steels.

    Knock Off hasn't changed aside from it not affecting mega Aggron.
     
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  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    This is gonna be an interesting shift, since I'm pretty much thinking there's almost gonna be nothing that's tanking Cloyster if it manages a Shell Smash bar pure steel types to resist both Rock Blast and the Ice Spear, but use of Surf/Hydro (pending acc vs power), might make it one of the more obvious over the line/potentially broken things that are currently allowed in the tier especially since Empleon and Alo both moved up.

    Aggron/Aero/Absol all gonna be very threatening, and though I think big Hippo can for the most part take them on head to head, and also a few others pending match ups, but with the loss of our best defog users, Absol could see a fair amount of use for mega space because it can keep hazards off the field and most of the setters are pretty obvious if they are gonna try to set up, but I think most of them can also just rip through the fairy winged angel.

    As well Reckless Ganon Pig (EMBOAR) is now released, and I'm not sure what to think of that destructive cannon. Needs support in the form of Scarf or Banded generally, and with our defoggers gone, and a lack of "Great" spinners, sticky web support seems to be a highly viable option now too, which just helps Boar wreck pokemon on the field.

    This is gonna be a very fun meta for a while before we start getting to take out the obviously broken pokemon that fell, then move on to possible discussions that were pre-change. As I think one or two of the drops far supersedes anything that was discussed pre-change.
     
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  4. E.T.

    E.T. SSSSSSSSSSSSS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I've played a few battles with Cloyster, and I'm convinced it's ready for a suspect. The only common things that I've encountered that seem to give Cloyster trouble are Doublade and defensive duck, but they are very easy to wear down, and Doublade takes very heavy damage from the mixed sets (I've only tried the physical set so far though). Other steel types like Mega Aggron and Bronzong should be able to stop it if its sash has been broken, but I haven't seen many of those yet.

    I would also support suspects for Slurpluff and Sharpedonite. The only Slurpluff set of concern is the belly drum set which is probably still too strong despite some of the drops that entered the tier. Mega Aggron can eat up a hit and KO back with STAB, and Doublade does a good job of walling it as well. Rhyperior, doesn't work as well as one might think because Drain Punch usually prevents Rhyperior from KO'ing with EQ, unless it's choice band. However, the best way to stop Slurpluff is to avoid giving it the chance to setup which can often be easier said than done.

    Sharpedonite is a lesser cause for concern than the two previously mentioned imo, but is still worth suspecting after the tier shifts. Having speed boost before mega evolving makes it very threatening and harder to revenge kill. Strong Jaw makes Crunch strong enough to OHKO many Pokemon that have lack good bulk such as Flygon, and it has good coverage moves such as EQ, Poison Fang/Poison Jab, Ice Fang, Zen Headbutt, etc. However, if it is forced out after mega evolving, it becomes much easier to deal with. Duck is probably the best way to wall it, but there are several other mons such as Poliwrath, Whimsicott, Togetic that can beat it if it lacks the proper coverage move. It also really dislikes Mach Punch.
     
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  5. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Hi.
    Slurpuff has been for a while and continues to be pretty disgusting imo.
    Its "new" Drain Punch allows it to smash its would be steel type counters into submission and regain a large chunk of its health. The BD set can't set up on everything but it can on a large number of things like Porygon2 or Absol or Hitmonchan. The 20% usage of Doublade (good mon though it may be) does hold Slurpuff back a little but it's honestly the only real counter I can think of. Mega Aggron probably doesn't take a lot from Drain Punch mind you.

    I also think that Reuniclus is broken as sin. Sharpedro or bust,,,
     
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  6. Just Do It

    Just Do It No one cares

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    I would like to mention Porygon2 (Nr.2 in Usage).

    It's a Excellent Wall in LU (both Physical/Special) which has both Stalling Capabilities as well as Wall breaking.
    Classic set is usually Tri Attack/Recover/BoltBeam/Toxic, with questionable moves like Charge Beam/Discharge/T-Wave/Shadow Ball/Trick Room.
    With Eviolite it won't be easy to 2hko let alone ohko him. Yes, we may have Knock Off Support to cripple him, but he still might pose a threat with reliable Recovery.

    Defensive Steel Types (Bronzong/Klefki) can tank everything and cripple it with Toxic.
    Fighters such as Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan/Hitmontop/Emboar/Scrafty/Cobalion/Virizion/Pangoro do well vs him & some Knock Off Users (M Absol/AV Escavalier) will beat it too. Porygon2 doesn't need to stay in those threats for obvious reasons.

    Top LU mons such as M Sharpedo get's Crippled/Beaten:

    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 166-196 (44.3 - 52.4%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO

    M Sceptile can Focus Blast, but get's ohko'd by Ice Beam anyways:

    252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 198-234 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    The rest of the Tier? About 75% will have a hard time beating this Bulky Duck (specially with good Support).
    He will force you to use either a Fighter, a solid Set Up Poke which can tank his hits or some Choiced Items.
    I'd say it's kinda Broken for LU, because of his Amazing Bulk.

    I also believe as Weavile stated that Reuniclus is too Bulky for the Tier (specially the CM Set).
    Perhaps with M Sharpedo/M Absol still in the tier (lol) we can look at this later.
     
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  7. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I can sort of understand why you're looking at P2 but I think a reason P2 is so insanely good at the moment is precisely because it checks/counters so many overwhelming threats rather than necessarily being overwhelming itself. In barely a month it's turned into a team glue of Slowking-in-BW-LU proportions and I'd be very willing to take a further look at it if it continues to be this central to the tier after we've finished looking at Slurpuff, Cloyster, Sharpedo, Absol, Reuniclus etc. But right now it's one of the very few things standing in the way of the tier being overwhelmed by broken offensive stuff. PS I think T Wave > Toxic on a regular P2 set at the moment, and Shadow Ball is pretty legit because P2 is often exploited as set up bait for Doublade

    PS Try Poison Fang Sharpedo it's goddamn terrifying
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2015
  8. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    Can I ask when an ORAS LU Viability Rank Thread will be done?
     
  9. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Aurist made a rough draft of one, and I'm checking it over a bit, and when we can talk we can adjust some spots, then post. So, soon-ish, hopefully in the next day or so.

    As well should have the slurpuff suspect wrapping up soon when I can find aurist on that too, and then we can move forward with other more obviously broken things. As well, I'm back to being LU Tier Leader, so hopefully we can pick things up and get them going faster for the POWC happening around the corner.
     
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  10. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Alright, so just a tentative listing of what's overall going on. Just finished with Slurpuff, and are doing Cloyster. Ours hopes kind of are to get Cloyster done pretty well, get to Mega Absol, and possibly get to Porygon2 seeing as it does it's job defensively as a pivot so well and is a living hell for most of the pokemon in general in LU that aren't obviously overpowered/broken themselves.

    If anyone actually cares to post in regards to these or possible suspects, we also have though about Reuniclus since, it's technically its own win condition with the Kee set and pretty abusable for two other sets of it being very strong. Though do note taking into account that, currently Kee is broken still in that Knock Off will still activate it when it actually should not if you kind of make an argument for/against it.

    There is obviously some open room for things like Mega-Aerodactyl too which some people have PM'd me about, as well as Mega Aggron if people would like to see that. Surprised at the lack of request for Draglage or Kingdra even, but when you can spam Aggron, P2, Hippo, or Klefki as bulky and effective against both, I guess that'd quell complaints on them.
     
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  11. E.T.

    E.T. SSSSSSSSSSSSS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    What about Sharpedonite? Have I missed something that's recently happened to prevent it from even being suspect worthy?
     
  12. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So I figure that other than the obvious Mega Absol, P2 is pretty cancerous. It sponges hits from basically everything not Hitmonlee or boosted like it doesn't give a fuck. Even without its Eviolite it eats neutral hits from some strong stuff pretty well on its defensive focus side;
    252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Porygon2: 144-171 (38.5 - 45.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    That's a nice 165 base SpA Thunderbolt without Eviolite just scraping by at about 42%

    It's also very rarely setup fodder, since Download can give it some fearsome offensive presence what with SpA being its highest stat. Its movepool is exceptional too so coverage is no issue. Its primary weakness would probably be Toxic. It really doesn't like Toxic. But then you run it on a fat-ass team with a cleric, that's not such a big problem.

    Of course it's not unbeatable, Hitmonlee (I hear this is notoriously hard to wear down xdd) and other stuff like LO Hitmonchan can deal it some death and AFTER knocking it off its non-focused defensive stat is notably more vulnerable. But then it still takes a fairly hard-hitting STAB to break even the weaker defense.

    Still think Mega Absol is the most pressing issue right now but P2 is disgusting :[
    (Oh Reuniclus is pretty lame too but then it's abusing a bug right now)
     
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  13. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    rn I feel as if mega-dactyl is pretty bad. I'm not LU lord - hell, i only have 10-15 games experience in the tier with a team or two, but i think this thing getting the boot would be a step in the right direction for the tier.

    the set i've used and gotten my ass handed to me by, too, has been: hone claws / stone edge / aerial ace / aqua tail, but taunt + roost, attacking, and defog variants are also viable to varying extents depending on the overall purpose you feel that mega aero should have on your team.

    tbh it's not that there are a lack of counters, it's more the fact that only a few of them fit into offense and those are mainly SR users (i.e: uxie, cobalion, mega aggron, mega lix, seismi, etc.) who are responsible for: setting up rocks early-mid game, checking other pokemon on the opposing team, and withstanding multiple hits throughout the game. so, they're likely to not be too healthy in the long term while a solid offensive team is contructed so that mega aero cleans late game, meaning it can effecitvely sweep an offensive team that is weakened late game with ease due to its speed, movepool, convenience, and power (especially after a hone claws and thanks to its ability).

    not gonna go into other sets despite knowing they're at least somewhat effective because i haven't used them, but this thing seems like it's worth looking into.

    other pokes that are lame: mega pedo and reuni

    mega pedo hits like a fucking truck when mega'd w/ crunch although non-lo mega waterfall is slightly disappointing, it does /enough/ dmg, imo. i'm not too experienced with this - even less than aero - but i think there's a bit of a lack of counters here, too, especially because it can get a speed boost or two and not mega off the bat while still pressuring the opposing team, so offense can get demolished given some circumstances. some potential checks to it can be aromatisse, coba, tang, hitmontop, and maybe klefki, which is an alright list, but not all of these see much use on common builds and those who do aren't able to tank too many hits, but i'd say it's a bit more up in the air and a bit less potent than aero (could be missing something, idk if it runs a poison coverage, not how much damage it does, but i do know that mega pedo's a top tier threat atm and is at least noteworthy)

    reuni should be ou because it's actually really good rn but po's ladder usage is aids so rip the dream. regardless of that useless fact to this discussion, cm reuni is a really good mon and it's hard to stop without one of a couple things, but not gonna go into specifics because haven't used it at all and haven't faced it much, either.

    ps i posted because aurist said to and ik this isnt formal and is kinda crappy, but its good enough i guess. hope everything gets settled and the tier clears up a bit as the tls have been making a good effort to do this so far, but there's still progress to be made because of all the drops and stuff being toxic to the state of the meta so yea
     
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  14. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Don't worry finch, more or less your post was alright. Mega Aero is a pretty big concern depending on what set it's running. It hits pretty damn hard and outspeeds the entire tier itself, with a cool ability that it doesn't get to fully utilize because of it's moveset, but has decent set up opportunity. It's pretty much either it's own stallbreaker or it's own sweeper, though you pretty much have to dedicate to one form of set dependent on team needs which leaves it somewhat open to vulnerability. I'm not against it entirely since it's capable of doing so well, but one of the things about suspecting aerodactylite is that it's potentially moving up with the tier shift soon. Which would correspond with the tier shift and a potential suspect ending anyway, where we could use that time for one of the other potential suspects.

    Sharpedonite / Mega Sharp, kind of always just been there for me. Like I'd rather people kind of talk Sharpedo as a whole or just Mega Sharpedo, because let's face it both of them are extremely good. Mega Sharpedo is one of the better pure ready clean up and sweeper types in the tier, but it does have a limitation. Like once you Mega, and if you get forced out, you lose that speed boost and you encounter a lot more things that can kill you. You'll still be threatening against the slower populace that aren't fast nor bulky, but its' not like LO regular Sharpedo isn't strong in it's form as well being able to run LO Physical, Mixed, and Special and being just as strong as it's mega'd form in each in a way. Since Strong Jaw misses out on LO Waterfall actually being powerful enough to do some of the damages it needs, where as it's all Crunch doing the work that people want a suspect. I wouldn't mind just Sharpedonite, but would like to hear on thoughts about just regular sharpedo too since it's just a lot more than 1 very scary attack with just enough damage from it's axuiliary moves or well sub if you can pull that off, but we're not all hikari's here.

    What I'm kind of getting at for the next one that we'll run alongside Cloyster, is where would people like to see started? Mega-Aero is moving up by the time the suspect would end, and if it ever falls again it'd be one for immediate suspection. Unless something changes within the UU meta game to lower it's usage enough to stay LU, it's like we're doing this just as it's gonna leave if it were to end up banned anyway (it'd be a semi waste of 2 weeks) for other things that are going to stay. Mega Absol, Mega Sharpedo/Sharpedo, Reuniclus, or Porygon2 are the best next candidates. In my own opinion of the meta, I'd argue it'd be worth P2>Mega Absol/Aero>Sharpedo/Mega>Reuniclus in terms of how potentially bad things are. Overall because the one amazingly super definitely wall is a way to check 2 of the other 4, as well as sponging off non fighting type or purely powerful banded/specs hits from mulitple pokemon from all over the tier which in a way is a potentially metagame defining mon because it's so good at what it does.
     
  15. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I don't have much experience using Porygon2, Mega Absol and Mega Sharpedo, so I can only comment on Reuniclus.

    It is a very good Pokémon in LU. Its stats are pretty solid all round, apart from Attack (irrelevant anyway) and Speed (which it can use its poor speed to its advantage). There's 2 main sets it can run: Calm Mind, and Trick Room. Calm Mind is a stallbreaker/bulky special sweeper; Trick Room is a late game cleaner. It can also threaten multiple playstyles - Calm Mind wrecks stall, Trick Room wrecks fast hyper offensive. However, it has enough flaws, checks and counters to keep it containable IMO. Outside Trick Room it's easy prey for faster Ghost, Bug and Dark types. The Calm Mind set has trouble setting up against offensive teams, while the Trick Room set struggles to break through UU's Special walls (Psychic is usually the superior move on Trick Room Reuniclus). Assault Vest Escavalier can reliably counter it, although off the top of my head I couldn't name another surefire counter (there might not be one, idk).

    @Finchinator Reuniclus is a great mon, but it doesn't deserve to be OU. It wouldn't do well there - Scizor and the umpteen Dark types would make it a niche choice at best. I think it deserves to be UU though, although Hydreigon and Weavile would be a pain.
     
  16. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    This is entirely about LU though, so let's keep it relative to the tier. I dunno if you meant LU's special walls with that bit or actually UU's special walls which have absolutely no relevance here in this discussion, but keep it to LU. It also has THREE sets it can run, not just two. Obviously it has the Calm Mind set, which doesn't just stall break, it can easily ruin balanced teams as well as HO style teams too. The induction of Kee Berry on a bulky special sweeper like Reuniclus gives it a +1 to the defensive stat which as long as it doesn't get forced out or if it's the last pokemon means the opponent needs good set up attackers or very strong attackers to continually pile on damage since you can't status it for chip damage or things like leech seed. Calm Mind and Recover off damage and let Psyshock and FB/Shadow Ball do the work. It has a fair amount working for it, that it's capable of setting up with fair ease.

    Trick Room of course with 3 attacks takes strong advantage of Life Orb and Magic Guard with enough attacks that it has relative low counters, but a fair enough checks too. Finally, there is the Choice Specs set for LU, which takes advantage of it's ability to hit and run because it has both Regenerator and Magic Guard for abilities means you can either keep it's health up or ignore the various hazards an opponent might pile on, and allow you to literally hit and run with moves like Future Sight, dunno about you, but a specs Future Sight hurts a ton.

    As far as potentially checking it in LU with faster "bug, dark, ghost types", there is things like M-Sharpedo, M-Absol, Honchkrow, Houndoom, Yanmega, Escavalier, Zoroark, Venomoth, Haunter, Scrafty, Mismagius, Spiritomb, and Rotom, but a lot of these are frail pokemon, and so you are most often checking it or possibly dying to it depending it's set. The best shots at living are Escavalier, Spiritomb, and Scrafty. Most of the dark types need a 1 on 1, or lucky focus miss on a switch in to not die or it to not have Focus Blast (which it should have anyway). It's partly in that limbo state where without 1 boost it's strong but you have a possibly strong shot to nuke it into range if they try and attack you instead of recovering the incoming damage or you are boosted and can kill, but if it's already got the set up, you need to be generally lucky and combo it to death.
     
  17. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Sorry that was a typo, I meant to say LU's special walls. I agree it is a threat, and arguably one the better Pokémon in LU but at the moment I wouldn't say it was broken for the reasons I stated earlier.
     
  18. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I have a lot more to add but for now I'd like to say how much I oppose any kind of Porygon2 suspect for the time being. Right now we have a tier full of somewhat overwhelming offensive threats with Porygon2 being pretty much the only thing standing in the way of the tier being a shitfest, stopping a large amount of them and being very easy to fit on a team itself. Suspecting Porygon2 at this point would, in my opinion, destabilise the tier a lot more than it would do good currently and although we do have a situation of "Porygon2 beats it / well yeah it's Porygon2" I think it's preferable to offense being overwhelmingly better than balance and any other playstyle right now. I would strongly prefer Porygon2 be a later suspect and that we look at things like Sharpedo, MAbsol, MAero, Reuniclus, Honchkrow beforehand. We have quite a backlog to get through with such few people taking part and I for sure don't want to deal with an even more screwed up tier than it could be.
     
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  19. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I second mega Sol. It has an outrageous ability, power, and great coverage moves with a combination of priority and boosting that allows it to threaten all playstyles. With there only being two fairies in the tier (both of which are very passive) it has an extremely negative influence with a ridiculous amount of reward and only a singular drawback in low bulk
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
  20. Fatarus

    Fatarus New Member

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    I think we'll eventually need to ban porygon-2 because he's used really often in LU, and with an eviolite he hurts and tank a lot. I agree throught that if we ban him lu will be an offensive shitfest which isn't real good.
    Also ban aurest.
     
  21. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    Well, I don't think any tier with access to Tangrowth, Slowking, Doublade, Hippowdon, Rhyperior etc can become a real HO shitfest...but I somehow agree on Pory2, as the Physical as well as the Specially defensive variant do their respective jobs really well. If an offensive threat is suspected in LU, Pory2 will always be mentioned as a check, regardless of what it is (bar Mega Absol, maybe :v ). It only fears losing the Eviolite (they are still plenty bulky after doing so, however). EDIT: i dunno if this got through: imo pory2 is borked, suspect pls.
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2015
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