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[Grammar] Exeggutor

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Analyses' started by Ortheore, Feb 11, 2015.

  1. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Exeggutor is one of the most ubiquitous Pokemon in OU, and for good reason. It’s the most reliable Pokemon in the game at inflicting sleep, thanks to Sleep Powder, excellent bulk and a typing which provides invaluable resistances to Ground and Psychic as well as resisting Electric and Water. These traits also allow it to serve as the premier check to Golem and Rhydon, while also being a superlative response to other physical attackers. Explosion is yet another valuable tool in its arsenal, allowing it to take down particularly dangerous threats or smash a troublesome wall. Perhaps the biggest drawback to Exeggutor is that it can sometimes struggle offensively; STAB Psychic isn’t nearly as threatening when it’s not complemented by recovery. Nonetheless it’s a top-tier Pokemon in RBY and earns a place on almost all teams.

    Tank

    Exeggutor (M) @ (No Item)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Psychic
    - Explosion
    - Stun Spore


    Sleep Powder is an excellent move, given its decent accuracy and how amazingly effective Sleep is in RBY. Psychic is the STAB move of choice and Exeggutor's best attacking option. Explosion is incredibly useful both as a means of taking down threats and breaking walls. Stun Spore is an excellent choice for the 4th slot, allowing Exeggutor to paralyse the likes of Chansey, Starmie and Alakazam, as well as any physical attackers that decide to stay in on it. Mega Drain is the next option for its ability to dissuade Starmie from switching in and because the recovery is surprisingly significant, notably allowing Exeggutor to take an extra Seismic Toss from Alakazam.

    Other Options

    Mega Drain is an option as it deters Starmie switches, while the recovery is surprisingly useful, for instance it allows Exeggutor to survive an extra Seismic Toss from Alakazam. Egg Bomb allows Exeggutor to pressure Chansey and Alakazam as well as chipping away at Jynx; however its relatively poor accuracy is discouraging. Double-Edge functions similarly and is much more reliable, although the recoil it inflicts is painful and makes it practically unusable vs. Chansey. Hyper Beam is a decent choice, potentially allowing Exeggutor to nab surprise KOs on Chansey, Jynx and Alakazam. Leech Seed is usable, with the best set for it being Psychic/Stun Spore/Leech Seed/Rest, though this is not recommended for newer players. In a similar vein, using dual powders alongside Rest and Psychic is possible but mediocre.

    Checks and Counters

    Chansey and Starmie can tank Psychic with ease and retaliate with Ice attacks. Alakazam also takes little from Psychic and has recovery, but if it lacks Seismic Toss it will use a lot of Psychic PP wearing down Exeggutor. All three have their drawbacks- Chansey is slower while, if paralysed, Starmie and Alakazam are threatened by Mega Drain and mixed variants respectively. Jynx is a formidable response to Exeggutor, resisting Psychic and firing off potent STAB Blizzards, effectively deterring Exeggutor from switching in early in the game. Articuno has excellent special bulk and Ice attacks. Lapras and Zapdos can both beat Exeggutor, but don’t really want to take a Psychic or Stun Spore. If Exeggutor lacks Stun Spore, Dragonite can use it as set-up fodder. Slowbro can also attempt to set up, but it’s a prime target for Explosion as well as being pressured by Mega Drain. Lastly, if any of Exeggutor's checks also happen to be sleep fodder they can often be used to stop Exeggutor's explosion from hitting more valuable targets.

    General

    · Reliable sleep
    · Excellent resistances along with great bulk give it lots of defensive utility
    · Premier check to Golem/Rhydon, as well as being an invaluable check to other physical attackers
    · Explosion
    · Can sometimes struggle offensively (if Stun spore-> mono psychic, if mixed-> no para)


    Tank

    Exeggutor (M) @ (No Item)
    - Sleep Powder
    - Psychic
    - Explosion
    - Stun Spore/Mega Drain


    • Sleep is amazing and Exeggutor is the most reliable user of the move due to its superior accuracy and ease of switching in.
    • STAB Psychic is its overall best attacking option.
    • Explosion can be used to smash a wall such as Chansey or against a particularly threatening pokemon such as a boosted Slowbro.
    • Stun spore to spread paralysis in order to weaken the opponent’s team
    • Mega Drain is Egg's best option vs. Starmie and the HP recovery, though small, can allow it to live notable hits


    Other Options

    • Egg Bomb and Double Edge are the next best options- Egg Bomb hits Jynx, Zam and Chansey for decent damage, while Double Edge packs the same punch and is much more reliable, but inflicts recoil which can prove troublesome (it should not be used against Chansey for this reason)
    • Hyper Beam is an uncommon option, but it can easily nab some surprise KOs on Zam/Jynx/Chansey
    • Leech Seed can be an annoyance to Chansey, it generally does little else. Stun/Seed/Rest/Psy is probably the best set to use Leech seed, but it's not recommended for new players
    • Rest is potentially an option in a dual-powder set as well (in place of explosion). However it's a fairly mediocre option as Egg has a tough time waking.

    Checks and Counters
    • Chansey and Starmie due to bulk/typing, recovery and Ice attacks
    • Alakazam has good bulk, recovery and can wear it down with Seismic Toss or its own Psychic
    • Jynx resists Psychic and has STAB Blizzard
    • Articuno has great bulk and STAB Blizzard
    • Lapras and Zapdos both have the STAB to hit Egg for SE damage but don’t really want to switch in
    • Dragonite can set up if Egg lacks Stun spore
    • Likewise, Slowbro can attempt to set up, but it’s a prime target for Explosion and MD causes trouble
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2015
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  2. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    I'd just slash Mega Drain with Stun Spore and consider removing the other slashes.

    I'd write a good quality OO section for it cos a lot can be run but it's usually just an extra move.
    Hyper Beam sets need Psychic, and 2/3 of sleep powder, explosion, and stun spore, but any are droppable
    Egg Bomb is an option of course in pretty much only the stun spore slot.
    Rest+Leech Seed+Stun Spore+Psychic is a set on its own that's the only good use of leech, but it can solo snorlax, annoy chansey, annoy anything that's paralysed, catch many switchins like opposing egg or zapdos with stun spore, and help wear down non-IB slowbro with leech seed.
    Double Edge is legit in a similar way to Egg Bomb, only use it on really really offensive teams where egg's longevity doesn't really matter.
    Rest+Psychic+Double Powders is an option that's not really seen any more but isn't bar per se. Just standard egg with Rest>Explosion. Useful for teams that need a more stay around egg and less wearing down without giving up a lot of its status utility.
     
  3. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Eh I've never found MD to be that useful, whereas EB/HB are just so good against the Chansey/Zam that Egg always sees. Ik MD is considered the more standard of its 4th moveslot options, I just don't think it's justified.

    Also I wasn't sure how hipster to get with an analysis since it's targeted towards people learning the meta. That's why I haven't really discussed sets without Sleep powder, especially because of the limitations that places on teambuilding in terms of finding a good sleeper. mentioned dropping sleep powder and how it makes things awkward
    I might give a shoutout to your set because I know it's legit, but I'll make it clear it's not for new players mentioned
    I absolutely can't stand DE. Its recoil is forgivable against Zam, but against Chansey it becomes way too much

    also mentioned rest>boom
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  4. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    DE's probably considered more standard than Egg Bomb, it's more reliable against Zam and Jynx - speaking of which, Jynx should be mentioned as one of the targets for Normal moves on Egg, as it's very physically frail but otherwise Egg's best counter.

    I'd probably go Stun/Drain/DE in that order; Drain has nice synergy with Explosion (you thought I would Explode, so you brought GolDon in?! HAHA EGG REGAINED HALF ITS HEALTH!) and it can allow you to beat a pre-paralysed Starmie or (on lead Egg) to punish lead Starmie for trying to wake up. Hyper Beam and Egg Bomb are certainly legit but as they do much the same thing as DE it's not that big a deal to stick them in Other Options.

    Egg's setup bait for Dragonite if it doesn't have Stun Spore, so Dragonite should probably go under Checks and Counters with that proviso.

    Otherwise, this is looking pretty comprehensive. Good work!

    EDIT: I think I used Psychic/Leech Seed/Stun Spore/Rest before Piexplode started playing RBY, and I know I wasn't the first to use it. It's an old idea.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2015
  5. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    you must mention double-edge in the same breath as egg bomb. it's literally only reliability vs. recoil and dismissing only one makes no sense.

    mega drain not being a standard move is also whack - it's super useful to gain that sliver of a health back. tank two STosses, use mdrain on chansey, now you live tauros hbeam and zapdos dpeck guaranteed. like magic said i'd put stun spore in there first, but mega drain should be the second move mentioned on the main set.

    adding hyper beam because it is a current trend is not something i agree with. move to OO
     
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  6. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I'd say catching a GolDon with MD is so rare as to practically irrelevant, but maybe that's just me. Points on hitting Starm and living various random attacks are legit and everyone disagrees with me (I still think it's inferior), so MD gets a slash.

    I would like to point out that DE's recoil impacts Egg's bulk just as much as MD's recovery though, especially since it often sees Chansey switch-ins. Egg is totally dependent on its bulk to function and DE actively compromises that, while an EB miss isn't game-breaking, you just see a dip in offensive pressure. So yeah DE=EB is something I actually disagree with quite strongly. I'll mention DE though.

    Also added random stuff like Dnite setting up on non-Stun variants and Jynx being a target of normal moves
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2015
  7. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    It's an Exploder. Gambling with GolDon against it is harder with MD than with something else. Ergo in the equilibrium it gets more Explosions off with Mega Drain.

    (Whether GolDon actually continue to be relevant is somewhat in question now, though.)

    Don't think of an EB miss against Chansey vs. DE hitting Chansey. We're all in agreement that EB is superior against Chansey.

    Think of an EB miss allowing ReflectZam to come in and start stalling, or an EB miss letting Jynx in at full HP so it can start spamming STAB Blizzard without being in guaranteed Hyper Beam OHKO range.


    Also, Dragonite isn't exactly an afterthought, it's a big contributor to why Stun Spore's the standard. Non-Stun-Spore Egg is literally Dragonite's best setup bait in the game (non-Body-Slam Persian might be slightly better, if you consider the cat OU at all), and a set-up Dragonite is a big deal.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2015
  8. Disaster Area

    Disaster Area Badged Deucer

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    I got it from Raish. M Dragon's used it too. He just attributes it to me since he's only really seen me use it and it's a key player on my main team.
     
  9. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Alright calcs time
    Egg's max HP is 393
    DE's recoil is 1/4 damage dealt
    Since I'm gonna include MD calcs for comparison, MD recovers 50% of damage dealt

    Exeggutor Double-Edge vs. Chansey: 192-226 (27.3 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    Exeggutor Double-Edge vs. Alakazam: 110-130 (35.1 - 41.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Exeggutor Double-Edge vs. Jynx: 124-146 (37.2 - 43.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    DE recoil vs. Chansey 48-56 (12.21-14.25%)
    DE recoil vs. Alakazam 27-32 (6.87-8.14%)
    DE recoil vs. Jynx 31-36 (7.89-9.16%)

    Exeggutor Mega Drain vs. Chansey: 49-58 (6.9 - 8.2%) -- possibly the worst move ever
    Exeggutor Mega Drain vs. Alakazam: 41-49 (13 - 15.6%) -- possible 7HKO
    Exeggutor Mega Drain vs. Jynx: 53-63 (15.9 - 18.9%) -- possible 6HKO

    MD recovery vs. Chansey 24-29 (6.11-7.38%)
    MD recovery vs. Alakazam 20-24 (5.09-6.11%)
    MD recovery vs. Jynx 26-31 (6.62-7.89%)

    So what do we gain from this? Well, it all depends on what you consider an acceptable portion of bulk to sacrifice. Personally I consider a loss of roughly 13% HP vs. Chansey to be completely unacceptable, especially since you're not even 3HKOing the blob. DE isn't just inferior to EB in this context- it's flat-out unusable, I really don't see how anyone could argue otherwise. So by running DE>EB you've eliminated Chansey from your list of potential targets. Which is obviously a huge huge deal.

    I still don't consider running it vs. Zam and Jynx acceptable, since a loss of roughly 8% is still pretty significant (interesting: this is only a couple % points above MD's recovery, which is a point in MD's favour. GJ guys, you've talked me into arguing for MD lol). However, I can appreciate that other people might think differently, since the cost of DE is less and the rewards are much greater- it's much more threatening to Zam and Jynx, while Jynx lacks recovery and m9m's point about knocking it into HBeam range was a pretty good one because we all know the havoc Jynx can wreak with STAB Blizzard. Ok maybe I'd use it vs. Jynx. Definitely not against Zam though (mostly due to recovery). Point is, it's debatable and I wouldn't object to DE in these 2 scenarios, even though I might disagree.

    So in terms of cost/benefit DE is worthless against Chansey, but debatable vs. Zam/Jynx (to varying degrees). I'd say that's enough to make it worth using. Of course the next question is how that stacks up against Egg Bomb.

    So. You get to pick between having a 0.25 chance of your attack vs. Zam/Jynx failing or not really being able to target Chansey (I mean you can, it's just not worth it).

    When I put it that way, I can kinda see where people are coming from since Zam and Jynx both pose much more of a threat (offensively) than Chansey. But 0.75 hit rate is still acceptable imo, and Chansey is just such a massive deal. I know you all know this but still it cannot be understated. I mean damn. It's arguably the most influential pokemon in the meta and certainly top 2 (cool posts in the viability rankings btw).
     
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  10. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Well, the argument for DE is that even with EB being able to target Chansey, it's still not enough to actually break it under most circumstances. As you point out yourself, it's only a 4HKO - an inaccurate 4HKO at that - and Chansey can heal. Most of the time, you're still going to have to resort to Explosion.

    On the other hand, Zam and Jynx are 3HKOed, and Jynx doesn't heal, so it's more likely that Egg might be able to beat them without having to resort to Explosion (and thus save its Explosion for something else). Yes, Chansey's more common than both of them put together, but that doesn't matter unless you can actually beat it with EB.
     
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  11. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I wouldn't really expect EB to break Chansey, but instead to force it to recover and thus concede a free turn to bring Lax/Gol/Don in for free (maybe I shouldn't have referred to it in terms of xHKO).

    And it's not as though EB doesn't threaten Zam/Jynx either- it boils down to that reliability vs. recoil debate which is fine. If it were just that, I'd definitely have listed them together by now, but the fact that EB offers that anti-Chansey utility makes it a cut above in my eyes
     
  12. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Chansey needs to be paralysed for that to work, obviously, and Egg's not doing that with Egg Bomb. And Exploding Egg on Chansey is more viable than ever with Chansey's buff.

    Against Zam it seems to mostly cancel out (you'd need four DE recoils to match one missed Egg Bomb and subsequent free Seismic Toss for Zam), but I suspect DE has a slight edge if you run the full chain (as time isn't on Egg's side).

    Vs. Jynx it's obviously a very different story. The recoil damage is miniscule compared to the horrors Jynx can visit upon Egg (and a lot of other things) given an extra turn. Jynx may not be particularly common, but on the other hand when it's present Egg's usually going to be hitting it because Jynx is leagues better than anything else at countering Egg.

    You've convinced me that they're pretty close (I already considered EB "legit"). Not sure about EB being superior, though.
     
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  13. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Didn't think of it this way, so that's interesting.

    Anyway I might go ahead and move them both to #1 OO since even though I personally still think EB>DE, you've convinced me that the margin isn't so large as to justify me going against popular opinion here So I guess that's that.

    In the absence of any formalised QC process I'm guessing I'll be good to go ahead with the write-up for this now that the last issue has been resolved?
     
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  14. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Yeah, a write up is definitely fine at this point.
     
  15. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    The only thing I have left to question is the thing about non-Sleep-Powder and Rest Egg. The synergy of Stun Spore/Leech Seed/Rest can allow those three (and the resultant omission of Sleep Powder/Explosion) to be competitive, but I think that's a set on its own; unless you can get all three components (or maaaybe Stun Spore/Rest and keep Sleep Powder) I think Sleep Powder and Explosion should be considered immutable.

    Otherwise, everything seems to be hammered out.
     
  16. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    I'm fine either way with this, so I might as well remove the non-sleep Egg comment since Stun/Psy/Seed/Rest is really the only non-sleep set worth mentioning and that's already covered and I might as well swap the Seed and Rest points as well as making it more explicit that the set I'm referring to is dual powder/Psy/Boom. It's a set I've used before, albeit a loooong time ago, and I don't think it's totally unviable, just not very good, whereas I know that the Seed/Stun/Psy/Rest set can be decently effective.
     
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  17. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Eh? Dual powder/Psy/Boom is Egg's most common set. Did you mean dual powder/Psy/Rest?
     
  18. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Done the full write-up, feel free to begin dissecting it
     
  19. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Needs a capital on both words of the move.

    Something's wrong here.


    On content:

    Chansey as the number-one answer to Exeggutor... I dunno. It's got one big vulnerability that most of the other answers don't, and that's that it's slower than Egg. That means that if it switches into Psychic, it takes two whacks (about a third of its HP) and a 50% chance of a Special fall before it can actually hit back - I've seen Chansey forced out by Psychics alone several times. It also means that if it comes up against a crippled Egg, they still get their chance to Explode rather than be revenge-killed (same issue as Slowbro has, really).

    It's probably worth noting that Zam and Starmie rarely actually fall to the moves designed to hit them unless they're already paralysed, but also that ReflectZam burns a lot of its precious PP actually killing Egg.

    I think Jynx probably deserves more than nine words. It counters Egg, yes, but it changes Egg's role a lot both for the user (since it's a fairly reliable sleeper in its own right, Gengar leads aside) and for the opponent (because of Jynx's power over the opening keeping Egg out for quite a while, whereas otherwise it tends to come out very quickly).

    Mega Drain doesn't really dissuade Lapras from switching in more than Psychic already does. Neutral Psychic still does more than 2xSE Mega Drain. If you nab a specfall on the switch and they're dumb enough to stay in Mega Drain helps to press the advantage, but it's not that big a deal. Lapras doesn't exactly like Stun Spore, either.

    Mentions of Slowbro getting demolished by Mega Drain need to have the caveat of Amnesia being an effective defence due to Egg's low crit rate.

    Otherwise I think it's alright.
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2015
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  20. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    All of those changes are good and I will implement them immediately

    Edit: I just merged Chans/Starm/Zam into one point. Noted that Chansey is slower and said that paralysed Zam/Star are threatened by their corresponding moves. Also mentioned that wearing down Egg via Psychic is very PP intensive

    Talked up Jynx as an Egg response, briefly mentioned that it affects the way Egg is played, but I didn't really go into any detail because I figured that would make the C&C section fairly long. I'll try explaining it and seeing how that turns out I guess because there's probably no point mentioning it if I'm not going to elaborate

    Removed Lap mention from MD

    Described Bro as being pressured by MD, which is more accurate anyway

    Edit 2: Decided to remove the mention of Jynx affecting how your own Egg is played because I didn't want it extending too long and it's of questionable relevance in a C&C section. I did mention that Jynx deters Egg from switching in early-game
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
  21. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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  22. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    You need to do a find-and-replace of "pokemon" -> "Pokemon".

    "offensively -" or "offensively;". I'd prefer the latter.

    "And just how effective" rubs me the wrong way. "How amazingly effective"?

    This seems to be the only use of second-person in the entire article; it should probably be "Exeggutor's best attacking option".

    I seem to recall that the comma doesn't belong there. Not 100% sure, though.

    The "it"s here feel a bit too detached from any mention of Exeggutor's actual name. You can work out what's going on, but it feels a little off.

    IIRC this should be "...Jynx; however, its..." or "Jynx, although its".

    Run-on sentence. Same issue with use of "however". The latter half is also a little messy; I'd rather say something like "however, the move's recoil reduces Exeggutor's longevity, particularly when targetting Chansey".

    Same issue with "however".

    Run-on sentence.

    Unholy run-on sentence.

    I'd suggest you split these up and talk about the Recover users separately (or even Chansey and Starmie together and Zam separately), rather than trying to cover the key aspects of three significantly-different matchups in two sentences. Semicolons could also help.

    This is probably going to become irrelevant when you rewrite this, but "or in the case of Alakazam, Seismic" should be either "or, in the case of Alakazam, Seismic" or "or - in the case of Alakazam - Seismic". IIRC the latter is preferred.

    I'd prefer not to use all those present participles, but it's not a big deal.
     
  23. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Implemented most of those changes
     
  24. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    GOGO GRAMMAR NAZI
    Digression into content for a second; Starmie's a great target for Stun Spore.

    Can't see much else, but another set of eyes might help.
     
  25. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Thanks for the feedback, implemented those changes

    Something I'm strongly considering doing: moving MD to OO and making Stun spore the only slash on the main set. This is less to do with me thinking MD is bad, and more to do with the fact that I think Stun spore is just so much better than anything else Egg could run. I really think that slashing MD alongside Stun spore is misrepresenting its value relative to Stun spore and the other stuff in OO (I'd obviously make it first mention in OO)
     
  26. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Maybe it's just me, but I find that most of the time Stun Spore puts me in a difficult situation because I didn't expect Exeggutor to run dual-powder even though I should have. Mega Drain<Stun Spore I think is represented well by slashing it second, but maybe others think that it's too much as well.

    Perhaps a short explanation on the advantages and disadvantages of Stun Spore v. Mega Drain and why Stun Spore is, in general, the superior option. I think there's enough room in the set comments that adding a sentence or two won't make it too long to read.
     
  27. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom Active Member

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    Mega Drain was really meant for discouraging Rhylem from going for the KO on Egg when it's on low health (because Psychic does a bit under 50%). Mega Drain is a 2HKO, but it also gets Exeggutor a significant amount of health back and thus enables it to Explode after beating them (and stopping said Explosion is a lot of the value of killing Egg with a Rock).

    It's really a relic of the old days at this point, not just pre-Crystal but pre-Wrap-unban (Dragonite blithely setting up in MD Egg's face had drastically reduced its usage already). People realising that Gengar can chip Egg with Night Shade also made doing it with Rocks a bit less important.

    EDIT: It does help against Slowbro (not enough to actually beat it, but enough to make it Rest), but Explosion already helps with that (and means +0 Slowbro vs. unparalysed Egg - the situation where MD helps - usually won't happen in the first place).
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
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