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Suspect Discussion: Slurpuff (banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Feb 12, 2015.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Candydog from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Candydog as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

    [​IMG] :3p
     
    Edna, Draciel and Weavile like this.
  2. Draciel

    Draciel No Goodbyes

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    Let's get this thing going.

    Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry Lv. 100 -- Unburden
    Nature: Adamant - EVs: 4 HP/252 Atk /252 Spd
    • Belly Drum
    • Drain Punch
    • Play Rough
    • Return
    That's the only set Slurpuff runs, and for good reason. The strategy is simple; come in on a fairy resist(like dark or fighting types, there's an abundance of them in LU) and set up Belly drum. So after just one turn of setup, it has +6 attack and 2x speed thanks to Unburden activating when sitrus berry is consumed;
    at +2 it reaches 486 speed ( 534 when jolly), which outruns the entire tier, even most scarfed mons. As a result its almost impossible to revenge kill after Unburden boost without strong priority. With decent 86/82/75 bulk, it can manage to set up on a large number of mons as well. Drain Punch is what makes this set so very threatening, as it allows Slurpuff to power through Steel type mons and regaining HP in the process. Play Rough is the obligatory stab, OHKOing everything that doesn't resist it at +6. Return is preferred as the 4th move to hit poison types like Amoonguss/Nidoqueen ; but Thief can be considered to hit Doublade hard, but it also loses the Unburden boost in the process ( most used mon in LU atm with 20% usage , so can't ignore it ; also OHKOes standard Bronzong which drain punch fails to do)

    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Thief vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 194-230 (60.2 - 71.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Thief vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 362-428 (107.1 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Considering checks and counters;

    Quagsire - Best counter as thanks to Unaware, it ignores the belly drum boost and can proceed to wear down Slurpuff with Toxic or outright 2hko with Earthquake.

    Doublade - Excellent counter to all sets bar thief variants, as it takes 60-71% from a +6 thief; can OHKO with Gyro Ball in return.

    Klefki - Prankster Thunder wave.

    Aggron - Massive physical bulk and Filter allows it to tank a +6 drain punch relatively well and proceed to OHKO with Heavy Slam.
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 168-198 (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO

    Bronzong/Escavalier and Amoonguss - Very shaky checks, as Drain Punch and Return at +6 do heavy damage to them respectively; Gyro ball/Iron head OHKOes in return and Amoonguss has access to Sludge Bomb/Clear smog to wipe away the boosts.
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Amoonguss: 350-412 (81 - 95.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Bronzong: 227-268 (67.1 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Shoutout to Lord Durant, as scarfed Durant outspeeds a +2 speed Adamant SLupuff and can revenge kill with Iron Head.

    All things considered, Slurpuff does seem too much for LU to handle. Good typing, its ability to set up on most things, and Drain Punch to regain lost HP while setting up makes it a extremely hard to stop, and near impossible to revenge kill. So I think Slurpuff should be Banned from ORAS LU tier.
    jeez @Aurist change your dp it freaks me out everytime I look at it :x
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
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  3. Twerk

    Twerk End Game Team

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    Ok first off, I agree with Draciel about the dp thing @Aurist it makes me not even wanna post here :P (there is no counter argument for me to put here sorry)

    As Draciel mentioned earlier, there is only 1 Slurpuff set ppl use (unless they're total ass) so I'm not gonna bother reposting it.

    Once Slurp sets up it's pretty much over with, unless you run a solid stall team that can handle it or a incredibly bulky Pokemon that can take it down. (I'm honestly surprised he didn't get ban during tier shift but I don't wanna judge.)

    At +6 he 1HKOs almost all sweepers and most walls. Although there are a few checks to him. For example:
    Quagsire-We all know how well Lord Quag beats setup sweepers with Unaware

    Doublade-Incredibly bulky and resists/is immune to all of Slurpuff's attacks(unless Thief which still won't 1HKO I believe)

    Mega Aggron-Walls Drain Punch well and 1HKOs with Heavy Slam

    Mega Steelix-Read Mega Aggron

    Weezing-Although nobody runs him he's a personal favorite of mine and Clear Smog/Haze on it beats Slurpuff (although it loses if it has taken a good amount of prior damage)

    Even worse after the Sitrus Berry consumption he also outspeeds 99% of the tier, with exception of already fast Scarfers.

    And the worst of all it's very unlikely that you can hurt Slurpuff enough so that he can't set up BD, even if you're running an offensive team, as he has 86/82/75 bulk.

    All of these factors make Slurpuff increadibly powerful, and in my opinion, banworthy. He is much too powerful for the LU meta.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2015
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  4. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    There's something a little bit confusing about peoples' posts so far in this thread, mainly that a majority of the posts are being spent listing handfuls of checks and counters followed by "I think it should be banned". I'd like to see some more talk about its situation of being a one-use sweeper that if it fails it's completely useless as well as an honest appraisal of its actual bulk which is more along the lines of Froslass or Yanmega without investment than it is actually decently bulky, however it has a fortunate enough typing to be able to come in on a good amount of pokemon in the tier. This gives it a decent but certainly not unlimited amount of opportunities to set up, the main problem with Slurpuff is once set up it can be overwhelming - though even after setting up there is still a large handful of defensive checks as listed above, as well as some offensive checks.

    It's also definitely worth noting that the tier massively lacks priority that can touch it even at lower %s, with a majority of the priority being Sucker Punch and Mach Punch, but also that a few good scarfers/+1s (Durant, Flygon [after SR], Yanmega, Mega Sharpedo/Regular Sharpedo, Modest Jolteon, Shaymin, Delphox) can outspeed set-up Slurpuff and KO it from Bdrum + Sitrus range, even if assuming it didn't take a hit setting up or hazard damage. There are also a couple other decent temporary/shaky defensive checks to Slurpuff than the ones listed above including Golbat, Cofagrigus, Porygon2 (currently pretty much the best pokemon in the tier), Hippowdon.

    None of this is me saying that Slurpuff is or isn't too much for LU but its situation is complicated and I don't wanna see things go unchallenged. It's worth considering that Slurpuff's ability to beat out a large portion of the tier might not be any more overwhelming than any other strong sweeper, considering the significant amount of very viable checks the tier has that any normal, good LU teams can and will be running at any time regardless of whether they're intentionally preparing for Slurpuff.
     
  5. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Been gone a few days, but nice to see this going up so we can properly discuss it. As far as it goes there literally is only one set for Slurpuff to run which is the set Draciel posted. Of course use of Adamant or Jolly comes down to if people want to beat some things like Scarf Delphox, Cobalion, Durant (though Jolly Slurpuff needs some prior damage/SR on durant to win).

    The thing about Slurpuff like Aurist said is that it's a literal one and done type of sweeper. If sitrus gets used before it can Belly Drum or you can find a way to force it out through various means or stop the Belly Drum, it's entirely useless. Though in most of these cases it does a fair job weakening the pokemon that can do this job that it might end up being useless too. Slurpuff is one of those pokemon that kind of need to be played around with what you have out rather than allowing a full set up without doing any damage to happen.

    Some things that come to mind that have been stated:

    Doublade: Any time doublade comes in on Slurpuff it wins unless it's randomly the CM Slurpuff, but that set is niche for taking out certain threats since it lacks any recovery. Slurpuff basically has to stand and die to Doublade since Thief does not OHKO it, and Doublade just forces it out which after using up Sitrus makes Slurpuff entirely useless since it's not gonna get another set up.

    Mega Aggron: You do have to mega which if you come on a turn that it BD's, you win since you can mega the turn after. If you aren't mega at this point and come in, and eat say a drain punch you'll lose about 40% of health depending on how it's ev'd, but if we go with the possible standard, your aggron is losing 40% health and Slurpuff has a chance to come back out to set up again (since it should switch).

    Steelix: Mentioned already above too, similar boat as Agg, but will take a lot less than agg on coming in to a Drain Punch from a slurpuff that predicts your coming in. So, you force out better with less damage risk.

    Durant: Literally has to be a scarf against adamant Slurpuff to win, and even then, Hustle could end up fucking you over. Versus Jolly Slurpuff you just need to keep rocks off the field, and then hope that Hustle doesn't fuck you over and you have no prior damage.

    Klefki: If it's para'd it is mostly screwed if you have something powerful, and it has heal block which means that Drain Punch is not as nearly devastating to trying to kill Slurpuff and all thanks to prankster.

    Defensive Nidoqueen and Amoonguss: These technically have to be near physically defensive invested to live a +6 adamant return, but Queen Sludge Wave will nuke Slurpuff, but chances are Queen will sack itself the next turn to whatever comes in next. Amoonguss has clear smog which effectively removes the BD, and can regenerate HP upon switching. Both can't have prior damage though and would prefer SR being off the field to maximize HP recovery and avoid a potential Return OHKO.

    Golbat: Does have haze to remove the stat boosts, but will need Rocks off the field otherwise 0 boost Slurpuff can kill it with return if all it does is BD ---> Return then Haze --> Return again anyway, thinking hey it's useless, when with rocks off, you can roost off the damage you take.

    Ghosts: Some ghost types are pretty useful against it too. Seeing as naturally the instinct should be you attack Slurpuff, it sets up, and you hope that it's first instinct is to Drain Punch for health, you can combo with ghost types that have enough defenses that they can wisp/stall out with a few since Return/Drain Punch won't hurt them. Not too many are good for this though, except Cofagrigus, Gourgeist-Super, Dusclops, Mega Banette. Some like Spiritomb/Dusknoir can probably work a banded Shadow Sneak to effectively hurt Slurpuff, but all these examples hinge on doing a decent amount of damage to Slurpuff with the Belly Drum, and it not using Play Rough as you switch.

    There are a lot of other scenarios for Slurpuff out there where it can lose, but before it dies it will almost nuke something, like Rhyperior, the pokemon as aurist said of Sharpedo, Scarf Starmie/Delphox/Jolteon and a variety of others who can nuke it after SR damage and BD after (or with a little damage done), but if it belly drums and you are switching, it'll have around 75% HP with no Rocks, and around 62% post BD with rocks, so you have to hit in that general area. Most teams don't have dedicated pokemon to this position as there are a myriad of other things to fit in spots, so Slurpuff is just one of those can take advantage of certain pokemon not wanting to be in a specific set to counter it, but for now I'm on the fence on actually banning Slurpuff, as there are enough things there as counters/checks on it you can place on a team, make the team work, and just have to have the proper scenario in mind to kill slurpuff. Since it like any other set up sweeper will take advantage of any free switch turns you give it, which makes slurpuff one of those you can't allow to have a turn of that.
     
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  6. E.T.

    E.T. K I N G Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I'll state my opinions on Slurpuff without trying to repeat too much of what has already been said. Among some of the counters mentioned, Doublade is great, but Doublade can't always afford to be entirely devoted to stopping Slurpuff. (Btw, Thief is bad, don't ever use that on Slurpuff.) Mega Aggron and Mega Steelix work well, but they can't be slapped onto any team, and they restrict you from being able to use one of the more offensive megas. Klefki can T-Wave to stop a sweep, but it will probably still die to Drain Punch while healing Slurpuff's HP, and unless you can OHKO Slurpuff, it will probably take down at least one more mon as well before going down. While Slurpuff does only have one chance to sweep, it isn't completely useless if it can't find the chance to belly drum. Late game, Slurpuff can still do a little cleaning with only the unburden boost; particularly against tired offensive teams.

    In my opinion, Slurpuff isn't the most broken thing in the tier right now, but I don't consider it to be healthy for the tier, so I'm leaning towards a ban.
     
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  7. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Ok, so I'm TL again, and me and aurist were having a discussion on Slurpuff's future, and would like to hear more from you few who have posted (and those lurking who have not)! So, this is more or less an argument possibly for Slurpuff staying in the tier, so @Draciel , @Twerk , and @E.T. and everyone lurking, pay attention.

    Slurpuff is without a doubt one of those pokemon that in one turn can sweep an entire team thanks to a set up move, it's pretty much nature of the game to be able to pull this off, especially since we've had/have pokemon capable of this from a +2 stand point. Anyway, Slurpuff if set up, is almost guaranteed to sweep if you do not have any pokemon we may have listed above that's essentially a steel type that doesn't die to Drain Punch (Doublade, Mega Steelix, Mega Aggron) or its strong stab play rough. But, that's honestly just the thing, IF it sets up. All your posts include that it's already +6, and the calcs with that, why is it +6 entirely? Look at the tier as is, what realistically allows it to set up a belly drum on it, with the tier as super strong as it is?

    Slurpuff isn't gonna set up on steel types. One steel type move is gonna equal your sitrus activates and you can't belly to +6. Same can be said for most poison types, where a stab poison move will end up killing you off or risk them knowing clear smog (unlikely I know for most to have this) and erasing your boost. If I run down the list of slurpuff 1 on 1 vs a myriad of pokemon this is what we get:

    These are all assuming you'll go with the Belly too, since full HP, and under the assumption you can outspeed (not entirely true).

    vs Reuniclus - Psychic will kill you after Belly Drum, Psyshock needs SR help, but Slurpuff is dead.
    vs Starmie - Surf will get it down to a point that Belly Drum doesn't activate, Hydro Pump should/would kill, Scald + SR = dead, where as with Scald you risk getting burnt, which after belly drum you die.
    vs Sceptile - Leaf Storm nukes you, so you'd have to switch in after it's used already, slurpuff wins vs giga mega sceptiles. same for physical sceptiles.
    vs Rhyperior - Earthquake kills after you belly and sitrus (no LO or CB needed either).
    vs Sharpedo (+ Mega Sharpedo) - Plays more of a 50/50, but Sharpedo has to basically has to attack on the possible BD turn, waterfall and get to a +2 speed with protect, then it wins (same for mega). Or as Aurist has figured, Poison Fang M-Sharp isn't actually too bad of a third move, but it's rare for M-Sharpedo to have a very good usable third move with the meta since you'll spam crunch. Even if it dies to Drain Punch/Play Rough, you are in a position to win with Sharpedo being extremely frail and possibly dying against most things that it can't KO.
    Honchkrow - any set can lose to jolly slurpuff play rough, ada slur loses to jolly honch BB, and if you use that poor man's 204 speed with 52 HP, you are gonna lose.
    Absol - You lose because you don't have a valuable 3rd/4th move that can deal massive damage to slurpuff without prior set up.
    Emboar, Mega Camel, Moltres, Delphox - Emboar is just death, Mega Camel wins with a fire blast hit, Moltres FB or F-Thrower prevent Slurpuff setting up BD, and Delphox Psychic/Fire Blast prevent set up with Belly, can even trick/switcheroo a choice item.
    Exploud - Boomburst gives no care, and you aren't strong enough to kill with drain.
    Cloyster - You have to be Jolly Slurpuff to outspeed +2 Jolly Cloyster, Icicle Spear does a hell of a lot even without a +2. LO Icicle Spear actually prevents the Belly.
    Hippowdon - Whirlwind, that's it's only way of stopping the belly sweep, otherwise EQ does like 50% max.
    Jolteon - LO needs either Modest or SR help to prevent the Belly Drum.
    Yanmega - Choice Specs Tinted Lens wins, LO Air Slash does not prevent the Belly, but with protect, you'll outspeed anyway at +2 without a positive nature.
    Shaymin - Don't miss the seed flare, you'll prevent the set up.
    Flygon - Scarf Jolly beats Adamant Slurpuff, loses to Jolly, same for like almost all base 100 scarfers. Banded would dent enough too to prevent the set up.
    Abomasnow (mega) - Hey Blizzard wins against the belly drum turn. Blizzard + Ice Shard wins if no belly that turn anyway.
    Braviary - You can beat the non HP invested slurpuffs with scarf brave bird and banded braviary. The HP invested bit allows for Belly on Braviary, but otherwise you will lose with adamant or jolly slurpuff with max invested on speed and attack.
    Clawitzer - Scald or Water Pulse prevent the belly, Scald can even burn.
    Slowking - Best you can do is Thunder Wave or Trick Room.
    Hitmontop/Chan - Dead by slurpuff
    Hitmonlee - Dead in most cases, rare Poison Jab can prevent the Belly, SR damage can push for a kill. (P-Jab is like only ever useful if you wanna kill aromatisse with a lee).
    Aromatisse - Set up bait.
    Pory-2 - Thunder Wave is a useful move, otherwise can be set up bait.
    Aerodactyl - Non mega version, taunt is extremely useful. Mega Aero has to teeter on Stone Edge or losing to being set up on.
    Mega Ampharos - SR damage is needed for T-bolt to be high enough to prevent the Belly Drum.
    Druddigon - Has Gunk Shot, bulky enough that non boosted Play Rough does not kill without prior damage done.
    Tangrowth - Sludge Bomb has always been an auxilliary option this gen, and it's bulky enough to live a +6 drain punch and have Sludge Bomb kill if you have some investment into special attack or are lo. Sleep Powder is useful too to slow it down.
    Porygon-Z - LO Tri Attack = it's gonna be dying or not setting up.


    I've got to go, but tentatively, this is me going down the list of pokemon that are LU from stats, minus the poison and steel types out right that can power over slurpuff, and that there are very few that don't have the ability to do so. Slurpuff is setting up on support pokemon with no presence, but even some pokemon that are support have Thunder Wave to help stop Slurpuff even if it sets up on you, and it's not limited to helping stop Slurpuff. I know how it's great when setting up, but there's so many pokemon and even more than these (I hit towards I think end of the 50s/start of 70s) on this list that Slurpuff can't exactly set up on with a decent amount of HP left.
     
  8. Just Do It

    Just Do It No one cares

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    I do agree that it's not as easy for Slurpuff to safely B drum as it looks which maybe makes him kinda Overrated.

    Al thought, it does set up easily on Fighters who lack Poison Jab/Gunk Shot, Supports like Aromatisse/Togetic and Mons who are locked in a Move (Scarf Flygon/Noivern, Specs Magneton/Jolteon with Hidden Power).
    +6 means that he doesn't have to risk Play Rough at times, since Drain Punch will ohko many Mons that have average/low defense.
    This helps Slurpuff stay really Healthy which makes it only harder to Revenge Kill with his Balanced Stats.

    The potential of running solid Partners with him to get ride of Bulky Steel/Poison Types who can't be ohko'd by Drain Punch/Return is quite easy.
    We've got Nidoqueen/Rhyperior/M Aggron/M Steelix/M Camerupt who can take care of Mons that resists his Stab/Coverage moves (done some tests as well).
    It does need good Strategy planning, but when successful it's highly rewarded.

    I'd say Ban Slurpuff from LU duo to the Potential of getting sweeped after a B Drum (Average Risk/High Reward) and the lack of solid Checks/Counters it as (looking at the previous posts).
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015
  9. E.T.

    E.T. K I N G Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Slurpuff does have difficulty setting up against a lot of offensive teams, but as I mentioned, it may not need the Belly Drum if it can last until late game against these teams because the unburden boost may be all it needs to sweep a tired offensive team. However, if you are running balance or stall, Slurpuff’s presence alone puts tremendous pressure on you the whole match unless you still have one of its counters like Doublade, Quagsire, etc. because if you give it a chance to setup, you most likely will lose. As far as pressure goes, even offense has some pressure on it because choiced mons can’t afford to be locked into the wrong move when one of Slurpuff’s teammates goes down. Personally, I don’t think this kind of low risk/high reward Pokemon is healthy for the tier.

    As far as your list goes @Celestial Phantom, several of the Pokemon you listed must meet certain conditions to be able to prevent a Belly Drum. Here’s my 2 cents on the Pokemon you metioned. I’m considering the Adamant set.
    Reuniclus has to be a Life Orb set or run max special attack plus boosting nature.
    Starmie needs the Life Orb set or max special attack with Modest and Hydro Pump.
    Sceptile needs Leaf Storm with no special attack drops (so Slurpuff could bait you by sacking something else to take the Leaf Storm and win anyway).
    Rhyperior needs a life orb or choice band to guarantee the KO, otherwise it’s a damage roll even with max attack. Defensive Rhyperior is setup bait unless it has Roar.
    Sharpedo/Mega Sharpedo can apply enough pressure to stop the Belly Drum, but it’s going to activate unburden before dying to Play Rough (or even Drain Punch in Sharpedo’s case) while most likely leaving Slurpuff with a decent chuck of health.
    Honchkrow must be Jolly as you said, and then it can stop a Belly Drum, but the BB is a damage roll for the OHKO, so you’re losing at least Honch in this exchange if it doesn’t KO.
    Emboar, Exploud, and Jolteon must be careful about being choice locked into the wrong move after KOing something.
    Cloyster would work even if Adamant if it can keep its sash.
    Hippowdon must have Whirlwind, I agree.
    Shaymin needs a good damage roll (and to not miss) without Life Orb or a Modest nature, but it’s mostly reliable.
    Flygon with a scarf and Jolly nature definitely stops a Belly Drum, but will potentially die to Play Rough after activating unburden.
    Braviary works with a band, and works with a scarf most of the time.
    Clawitzer needs a Life Orb or Specs.
    Slowking and Porygon2 are setup bait, and even with T-Wave/Trick Room, something is probably still dying before Slurpuff goes down.
    Aerodactyl/Mega Aerodactyl can stop a Belly Drum with Taunt, and if Mega doesn’t have Taunt, it needs a good damage roll from Stone Edge (and it can’t miss obviously).
    Mega Ampharos can prevent a Belly Drum if it is offensive with a Modest nature.
    Absol, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, Hitmonlee, Aromatisse don’t work, I agree.
    I also agree with you on Druddigon and Tangrowth.
    Mega Camerupt, Moltres, Yanmega, Mega Abomasnow, Porygon-Z, and Delphox definitely work.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015
  10. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So Slurpuff is an extremely dangerous Pokémon. It doesn't set up on everything, as Celes has said, but then it only takes one turn so does it really need to set up on a bunch of offensive threats? Stall teams are always gonna need to Defog, Spin, Heal Bell, Heal or something else, or just not have a wall that can do enough damage to Slurpuff (like, most of them). So they're not so hard to set up on in general. Hazards can help with preventing setup, but Defog/Spin is standard support for most things, so it's not so far to go out of your way to remedy that. Against offense Slurpuff has a harder time, many things do do enough damage to prevent it setting up. But then many things don't. Mega Absol, Hitmonchan (Except for LO Bullet Punch sets), Slowking (Lucky burns though), Mega Sceptile (unless Leaf Storm), Hitmontop. These kinds of mon can give Slurpuff a turn. But also you have the factor that you can gain a single turn from moves like Leaf Storm or Draco Meteor. Or you can gain a turn from a well placed Trick or an unfortunate choice lock. It's really not a case of always setting up on an attacker. In real games opportunities are not all that scarce.

    As for defensive checks to Slurpuff. You have things like Weezing that just resist its STAB and Drain Punch. Or things like Mega Aggron that are bulky enough to not give a shit about a +6 Super Effective hit at anything more than 55% or so. Mega Aggron is a great Pokémon on any team type. It's an excellent fallback mon for a bunch of threats because of how amazingly fat it is. But it has to be Mega'd before it takes a hit. If it gets predicted and Drain Punched on the switch it's taking a nice 40% at +0 and Slurpuff is probably now at full health if it wasn't already. It's not so much of a hassle to evolve it, nor is it too risky to predict the Belly Drum, but it's a risk of sorts none the less. One must also consider that Maggron has no recovery of any kind and checks a bunch of other strong mon like Mega Absol, Cloyster, Sharpedo and Honchkrow. In the same vein as Maggron you have the slightly less reliable Mega Steelix, which is essentially a worse Maggron with an Electric immunity tbh, and Bronzong. Which is slightly less eclipsed by Maggron than Mega Steelix is, but also not quite as good at stopping Slurpuff.

    Now the two checks that are most apparent from the usage stats are Golbat and Doublade. Now Doublade is a hard stop. 100%. But it's also really really easy to trap with a Magneton. It can't even threaten EQs like Maggron can. Golbat isn't trappable but it still loses pretty hard to Magneton. But outside of the easy and beneficial CandyMag pair these are solid stops to Slurpuff and not awful Pokémon in general (well Golbat isn't that great really).

    So in short.
    - Slurpuff doesn't find it all that hard to find a turn to set up, seeing as it only needs one.
    - Slurpuff does have checks and even counters but they come largely in the form of Pokémon that don't have recovery.
    - Many of Slurpuff's checks are beaten by a lone Magneton.
    - Hazards also beat many of its checks pretty hard.

    Important:
    Gen 6 is aids, Isa's right I forgot I can't trap ghosts.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2015
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  11. Isa

    Isa Well-Known Tauros

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    I dont have anything to say of substance but you can try to trap duoblade for quite some time before succeeding weavile
     
  12. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    If we're talking Unburden boost being something that "sweeps" weakened teams, then hell Hitmonlee is broken as fuck with the amazing powers that be Endure Liechi Reversal. Unburden boost that by technically suiciding to the point of max Reversal Power, you have a +1 added to attack, a way to hit ghosts, psychics, and it's faster than Slurpuff with both Adamant and Jolly. Oh weakened physical team? SPEED BOOST SHARPEDO AND YANMEGA HAVE PINATA FUN TIMES WITH STRONGER ATTACKS! Then those would be broken too, but strongly enough, they actually aren't (ok, mega sharpedo might, and Yanmega probably can be with the right support)

    It's a candypuff with base 80 attack. With an unburden boost, but not having the Belly Drum, the only things it's going to kill are pokemon that are weaker on the defensive side. That is the nature of the game anyway, it's almost the same as giving a scarf to a pokemon that's got average special attack or physical attack and good speed, average defenses to outspeed your normal non-scarf pokemon, get surprise damage in, and possibly die or get the surprised kill.

    I think we all agree, that against stall, stall is fucked, because unless stall has some uber powerful strategy to kill a slurpuff with boost, they are fucked. If they can weaken or phaze or keep it off in some miracle way, good for them. Balanced has more lee way, but if you are a choice pokemon, and you use something that will choice lock you into something that can set up on you next, well it's not just slurpuff that can do this, a lot of pokemon can use this to an advantage and sweep teams. That's literally the risk of playing choice pokemon (especially if you use a dragon move while a fairy is around, electric while they have a ground type), I take it you see the point on with almost any team you run a risk with anything you choice band, scarf, or specs.

    As for your rebuttal on pokemon I listed:
    Reuniclus - So, 2 out of 3 sets that Reuniclus commonly uses will win. I do think that Kee berry is the best plug and play set for Reuniclus b/c it is a stand alone win condition, but you can literally throw Specs and TR LO Reuniclus on most teams, and it'll function in the exact same way, especially since these two run max sp. att modest.

    Starmie - Uh, dunno about you bud, but LO Starmie is pretty much the Starmie people should run since it's powerful as hell. I dunno if people have seen the tier, but bulky starmie doesn't cover all you need to exactly except for taking the mediocre pokemon hits. With how bulky some things can be, I'd rather take the LO Hydro/Surf route with Timid, which can/would beat Slurpuff, but if it doesn't kill and Slurpuff opts to use Play Rough over Belly, you will lose your Starmie. So, I give you this one, this time.

    Sceptile - Yeah Leaf Storm is the risk of Sceptile and Rotom-C here, since both need it to prevent the belly and honestly kill. Kind of the Choice argument I made up above, you gotta know when to play it or get swept.

    Rhyperior - I didn't exactly bother with the calculations honestly, I just used the 252 adamant with lefties, and was stopping the belly each time on the server (how I tested each poke I listed til I got tired of going down further to the NU abyss), but yeah defensive rhyperior would need roar to help it out there. Then again Banded/LO are still insanely strong, I mean it's one of few pokemon that can pass 400 in an offensive stat in LU and not be entirely useless because of typing or defenses.

    Sharpedo/M-Sharpedo - The risk of playing Sharpedo is not being able to kill your target, and having to rely on a revenge kill. This is more or less shaky since it'd give Slurpuff a chance to switch out and repeat the process.

    Honch - Hey we agree on one entire thing together, not bad.

    Emboar, Exploud, Jolteon -
    Uh, Emboar uses Flare Blitz, teams die. Superpower literally is for Pory 2 and rock types, while Wild Charge is for water types, and can throw Slurpuff in that belly and you die area if banded. Exploud uses BOOMBURST, and rarely gives a care for using Fire Blast or Focus Blast unless it's fighting A) something like Mega Aggron or B) Porygon 2. Jolteon is the only thing that can end up scarf/specs into a choice lock that has to be careful on what move it uses, but thunderbolt spam isn't entirely bad itself, just no ground types is all that's asked. There is almost no repercussion for Exploud or Emboar and their choice locks.

    Cloyster - is a dangerous oyster, and sets up on many things. One of those happens to be Slurpuff.

    Hippowdon - WW should be pretty damn common on most if not all sets unless you see Toxic.

    Shaymin - needs good roll on lefties set, LO can KO actually + guaranteed with rocks, Scarf Shaymin will outspeed adamant unburdened slurpuff! Though that set is mildly mediocre unless you have needed outspeedings.

    Flygon - Jolly Flygon using EQ against Adamant Slurpuff can be a win. If Slurpuff doesn't play rough thinking that it outspeeds after Belly Drum and it's not jolly, rude awakening. Of course Jolly Slurpuff wins against Jolly base 100's, but Adamant does not (and honestly I'd argue that I'd rather have a jolly slurpuff over Adamant anyway).

    Braviary - Has a hard niche this tier shift, but Banded is probably best for it in terms of one way attacking.

    Clawitzer - Huh, I figured I had AssVest as the item, and was stopping the belly most times, but then again Play Rough will 2hko the LO set, so yeah I had something mixed up in either calculations or simulations.

    Slowking and Porygon2 - P2 is set up bait with either TR or T-Wave, as it'll get OHKO'd by Drain Punch giving Slurpuff more to work with, Slowking is gonna be 3hko'd by +6 Drain to restore health so OHKO with the other two, but if it TR it'll leave damage enough for the next pokemon to revenge kill, T-wave slowking actually still is outsped and dies, so you need something to do that hopeful 75% at worst range.

    Aerodactyl/Mega Aerodactyl - M-Aero rarely ever runs taunt, but I'd advise it on normal Aero because it's just so good with it as a set up stopper. M-Aero needs the HC set up before hand in order for this to work.

    Mega Ampharos - Didn't really pay attention to this, figured that Play Rough OHKOs or something.

    Absol, Hitmonchan, Hitmontop, Hitmonlee, Aromatisse don’t work, I agree. <-- Agree to agree.
    I also agree with you on Druddigon and Tangrowth.
    Mega Camerupt, Moltres, Yanmega, Mega Abomasnow, Porygon-Z, and Delphox definitely work.

    Add in all the steel types we have: Durant, Doublade, Cobalion, Aggron (Mega too), Steelix (Mega as well), Magneton, Escavalier, Bronzong, Klinklang (more of an lol, but some people still like this thing). Poison types too: Amoongus, Dragalge, Drapion, Qwilfish, Skuntank, Muk, Nidoqueen, Haunter (surprisingly, it's not half bad with a LO or specs), Venomoth, Golbat, Weezing.

    As well I just figured out that, Mega Absol can actually beat Slurpuff trying to set up on it lol. Knock Off + Belly Drum + Sucker Punch next turn = a dead slurpuff, no rocks needed. Play Rough obviously a kill, but lol trying to set up on a mega absol actually is dangerous for a slurpuff (this is jolly absol too).

    Like I'm just trying to devil's advocate what we have in the tier vs where does slurpuff actually set up. It can only set up on defensive stall pokemon with almost no attacking presence, some stronger pokemon that need a boost in the form of life orb or other attack boosting items, and a few attacking pokemon that have relatively weak defensive stats (starmie comes to mind) when you aren't trying to set up and just gonna waste your sitrus unburden. Without the belly drum boost, Slurpuff is almost no threat at all, I mean base 80 attack is really and extremely medicore against many teams. If your argument is that the unburden boost will help it sweep weakened teams (offensive at that), guess what? You are describing many offensive pokemon that can do that too, it's the nature of this game, so unless we start banning other things that actually might not be that broken, gotta have a better argument. You can't exactly throw it out in the middle of the field and expect amazing results, nor throw it on every team and expect it to set up and sweep, or have the ideal situation.

    Hell I didn't even bother to mention that it can't come out on Shuckle or Whimsicott as it'd get encored into a move it doesn't want, it's rare, but Trick/Switcharoo users are still around on occasion and those can fuck up Slurpuff. At this point I'm tired, and I kind of wanted to respond to weavile's post, but that might need to wait til monday.

    Also, isa is a god.
     
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  13. E.T.

    E.T. K I N G Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Okay, "sweep" was the wrong word to use when describing Slurpuff vs weakened offense late game. My point was that it isn't always going to be useless against offensive teams that don't give it the chance to set up, and it can sometimes do some cleaning late game. NOTE: This is not what makes Slurpuff broken. Overall, in Slurpuff vs offense, offense is probably going to come out on top if Slurpuff can't belly drum. We agree that stall has a very hard time beating Slurpuff. I also think that balance faces a lot of pressure from Slurpuff in trying to avoid letting it setup. In my opinion, this is why it's broken: Slurpuff only needs one turn to set up and be able to sweep, and it is extremely difficult for stall, and to a lesser degree difficult for balance, to keep enough pressure on Slurpuff for the whole match that it doesn't get the chance to setup. Once it is setup, it's hard to revenge kill with priority because it resists fighting and dark, and Drain Punch gives it a way to replenish its HP as it sweeps.

    Now you have shown that there are many Pokemon in the tier that can prevent Slurpuff from setting up. Here's a question: Are most teams in LU comprised completely of these Pokemon? Of course not. If this were the case, Slurpuff wouldn't be being suspected now because it wouldn't be broken if it never had the chance to setup. However, against Stall and Balance, Slurpuff frequently has opportunities to setup because these teams aren't comprised entirely of Pokemon that threaten Slurpuff or Pokemon that can stop Slurpuff after it sets up, and it only needs one opportunity to setup and sweep.
     
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  14. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Ok so, I'm just gonna throw out some replies to posts with your average instinct in game, at least from my experience generally.

    In terms of fighters, only Hitmontop generally is the pokemon that can't ever beat slurpuff with it's standard sets (unless you run some physical invested attacking set I think), a few fighting types do normally run Poison Jab or Gunk Shot (Sawk and Pangoro respectively have them for auxiliary). Hitmonlee gets decent enough rolls with Stealth Rock up, that High Jump Kick means slurpuff really isn't gonna like a switch in since it can't boost it's attack. Hitmonchan needs Bullet Punch with auxiliary Ice/Thunder Punch which are already on it's main sets, though it'd really like mach for some pokemon like M-Absol. Supports generally are the set up bait, Aromatisse has it's second set of CM, Wish, Protect/Aroma, Moonblast which if you +1 while Slurpuff switches in, you do 60% minimum. As far as Choiced mons go, it is limited to what you have to use that turn vs will slurpuff sweep the next turn if you are locked into a bad move. As far as having pokemon that can take on opponents that cover his stab moves, I really think it's more along the lines can Slurpuff live what's on the field right now with what's out vs what might resist it's coverage moves. Really Slurpuff is one of those pokemon that unless you have Hippo, Def Rhyperior, Tangrowth/Tangela, Whimsicott, Doublade that you have to stand your ground if possible otherwise you don't switch because you'll get swept by the set up generally. 4 of the 5 pokemon you listed are already insanely good in the meta for one reason or another because of their strong stab moves with the stats and abilities that match them, they work on many teams, Slurpuff just gets to be another cog in the wheel that can help (but with 3 of those 5, it doesn't necessitate a team win condition exactly).

    Stall teams are generally fucked since they have to take turns of team support giving Slurpuff many chances to set up that doesn't involve a possible will-o-wisp, scald use, thunder wave, or encore/taunt (though almost never seen despite having various good use against hazards). As far as it's hazard removal, let's face it the tier only has like 4-5 great options that can fit on most teams right now with Starmie (BEST), Hitmontop (generally good), Flygon (Auxiliary option), Mega-Aero (again auxiliary option), and arguably Skuntank on occasion. The rest generally fall into the standard and ok option but aren't for every team build. So, I'd argue that most hazard removal is kind of iffy since like Mega-Aero and Starmie themselves can power through fair amounts of teams, and Flygon is Flygon where in it's generally scarf/banded with Earthquake and Outrage options to kill teams itself.

    As far as offensive goes, Mega Absol and Hitmonlee can actually kill slurpuff post belly, the rest of them you are right with. Hitmonchan literally has to carry Bullet Punch with LO Iron Fist doing the work to stop it. Slowking (Sp.Def varients would have to T-Wave to help the team), is iffy as AV + TR LO sets generally have max Special Attack and those can do near the 60% mark and can burn with Scald so it's luck based on rolls and hax.

    As well, I'd like to kind of quote you on a post in your Emboar NU suspect thread on, "When is it switching in" exactly? Slurpuff is limited to most switch ins where it's a choice locked resisted move, a revenge set up that it can perform 100% of the time, or on a defensive pokemon. It doesn't need to set up on any offensive pokemon, but if you look at the Metagame, a lot of them are offensive, and your idea of Magneton taking care of the steels is entirely iffy too. Cobalion wins vs Magneton, Durant can win vs Magneton if it tries to switch in (it also has to be scarf), Magneton needs like Magnet Rise sets to not be killed by Mega Aggron EQ, Mega Steelix is part ground so no T-Bolt, and depending on how it's ev'd HP Fire only does so much even with a specs set. Bronzong lives Specs T-Bolt/HP Fire and EQ can kill (evio sets are like better off on rolling damage). And as Isa pointed out, Doublade is untrappable. More or less Dugtrio trapping for steels fits the same way where it kills the faster ones, but not the bulkier ones. Generally teams where Slurpuff needs support vs steels is usually a 1-2 combo with Magneton+Dugtrio or one of each + 1 extra pokemon after they die. If you can wear em down a bit though, yeah Magneton can get the work done, but it's not entirely set in stone since wearing opposition down and having the right set needed is a 2 way street (magneton needs a different variety for different steel types).

    On the switch in argument I was making before I went Magneton vs Steel tangent, most of the tier is offensive in a way that Slurpuff doesn't have exactly many times it can get in unless it's a revenge set up sweep or few defensive pokemon. Where is it switching in beyond that vs good balanced and offensive teams? Like even pokemon that don't have attack investments can prove to be a very posing threat to Slurpuff since generally it has to switch in because not everything is a double switch. Kee Reuniclus? Get 1 CM, Psychic still does the job. Aromatisse? Set up on your standard support, but the CM one, gets the job done (may need SR though, I forgot on this). Download Porygon2? Get a +1 for special and Tri Attack is pretty useful into the 60% damage range (especially with rocks up). Golbat? Defensive Golbat lives +6 return, has Haze, recovery, if it forces slurpuff out even once, it's useful especially after the belly (and if you keep it in on a magneton I question what your team might be like unless you fight a really good team that nukes your elec resists to the point you don't have them anymore). Togetic? Nothing to stop slurpuff, so yeah useless unless you are throwing out like Thunder Wave. Klefki? Mostly useless since no way to stop it's setting up except using Thunder Wave + Heal Block to negate the Drain Punch bonus. Versus almost everything else, if something's more defensive but with a boosting move like NP, SD, Bulk Up, or Calm Mind, if they get that and Slurpuff has to switch in, Slurpuff loses. Against most any water pokemon, it risks scald burns twice in general if it has to switch in.

    Like I get that, most pokemon aren't actually useless, Slurpuff isn't a useless pokemon, because even with the Unburden boost is can at least hit something weakened maybe for some useful damage. But, like I'm saying you have to have the Belly Drum boost to get into the broken territory and if it fails that it's not broken for any team to deal with, it just becomes medicore weight and not a win condition.

    As for are most teams comprise of these? Not exactly, but 3, 4, 5 spots can generally be these, because these are from the top spots taken on usage stats. So you can expect a majority of teams to be made of these kinds of pokemon and more or less should be capable of keeping up the pressure if you know what you are doing. The reason it's being suspected is because people voiced their opinions and think it might be broken, a suspect DOES NOT MEAN SOMETHING ACTUALLY IS BROKEN and we're just waiting to ban it. Enough of that stupid thought that oh, it's suspected, it's gonna get banned anyway.

    Slurpuff has to actually switch in and set up. Where are it's set up options exactly? Actually I said this before, but I'll say it again, Defensive pokemon with no helpful status or offensive pressure, or revenge setting up on something, or taking an immunity hit generally. Aurist brought up to me that it can take fighting, dark, bug, and dragon moves/pokemon. However, are those always something that's choice or move locked? No, Dragon types generally if Outrage of course, but Slurpuff isn't the only one that can take advantage of Locked Dragons to an absurd degree.

    Dark Types:
    Houndoom, Honchkrow, Drapion, M-Absol, Skuntank, Pangoro, Sharpedo aren't banded/scarfed/specs'ed ever (though pangoro/honch might occasionally) for dark types and have a second move that will fuck slurpuff up if it tries to come in and do something like setting up.

    Fighting Types:
    Hitmonlee, Pangoro, Emboar, Cobalion, Virizion, Hitmonchan, Hariyama, Sawk, Poliwrath, all have some use or power over a coming in Slurpuff. Can't come in on most of these with an auxiliary like Poison Jab or Gunk Shot, nor set up moves like SD, or even HJK from lee, so it's gotta try for the revenge set up, and only generally 2 of these are banded/scarfed and they can deal serious damage in one hit or kill Slurpuff. Poli can phaze/burn, and it's mildly 2hko'd by play rough before the boost.

    Bug Types:
    Only ones you ever should see are Venomoth, Escavalier, Durant and Yanmega, with the possibles of Shuckle, Crustle, and maybe Scyther/Masquerain. First First four win vs Slurpuff so there goes it's resist, later half shuckle removes sitrus and can encore into belly (if you are stupid enough to try to set up), the latter three should rarely ever be used on a good team. Though Crustle can win if it's in the sturdy custap ability range.

    Dragon Types:
    Most used ones are Flygon, Kingdra, Druddigon, M-Amphy, Draglage, and Tyrantrum. Goodra and Noivern are still here. Out of these, Kingdra needs to get some set ups in, Outrage is death, Flygon has situational wins, Outrage is death. M-Amphy can win, Tyrantrum can spam it's massive Rock Head Smash if it doesn't wanna Outrage (which is general for everything bar Ground/Fighting types), Draglage is poison so fairy type bane, and Druddigon has multiple sets but I'd argue that LO SF isn't that bad to use with several of it's moves being boosted, and rather having Dragon Claw for this type of set anyway, Outrage should be left to the banded sets imo.

    So yeah, like where is slurpuff ever switching in bar revenge setting up or a lone defensive pokemon? I go through the usage stats and most pokemon generally have a standard set that can prevent slurpuff set up with relative ease if you make a good team in general. You can't just throw slurpuff on and hope it becomes a win condition, it needs building around for certain threats that can set up and you being able to stop those entirely.

    I go through the list of pokemon in LU vs Slurpuff, let's have a look:
    Doublade - Wins vs your broken set every time unless it's really worn.
    Nidoqueen - Wins vs pre-set up every time.
    Sharpedo - Revenge set up on M-Sharpedo, Double Switch, has to not have Poison Fang, otherwise at best it's wasting it's set up just to kill a frail sweeper.
    Aromatisse - Beats your main standard, can lose to CM +1 with rocks up.
    Slowking - Set dependent, as it has many sets that skirt Slurpuff's HP down especially if rocks are up. Only Sp.Def/Def sets are gonna lose unless scald burns.

    Rhyperior - Offensive ought to win, Defensive should have/has roar. Not switching in nor setting up in general.
    Porygon2- Generally loses, best supports with T-Wave, Download versions more dangerous for slurpuff, hell it can even be a TR setter too. Skirting here again.
    Starmie - LO is general set, meaning with Hydro which is also general it wins. Bulky Scald ones that would probably go Modest has a chance, but those aren't entirely used or good to take on the meta since more of a situational modified set.
    Hitmonlee - Only way Lee wins is it to switch in on Knock Off, it try to belly, and then mach punch with Rocks up. However it switching in to HJK (LO or Banded) it's taking a beating, and also wastes sitrus set up. Has to have that full HP 1 on 1. And yes this set up does kill, thanks to fitzyhbbe for pointing this out.
    Absol - Normal loses, dunno why it'd be run beside the 100% crit rate, but Mega Absol wins in the same vein if it tries to set up. Knock Off --> Belly --> Sucker is a dead slurpuff.
    Aggron - Can mildly switch in, Mega Aggron wins, Mega aggron can also win vs trappers like magneton/dugtrio in general. Rest is it's only recovery and it's 2 sleep turns that don't reset, so it's eh more or less.
    Honchkrow - Not taking a BB, and it's gonna have to 1 on 1 it, and kill with play rough before anything. Which gives the opponent the chance get something in to change the momentum to their favor.
    Emboar - Spammable Flare Blitz is literally no repercussion against anything except rock types and some water types.
    Golbat - Haze wins vs the set up, Roost off Damage, if it tries to attack well you have Brave Bird. Defensive doesn't die to +6 return anyway, but yeah lined this up already a few posts back.
    Aerodactyl - Normal has Taunt, Mega Aero can have Hone Claws, you have to double switch/1 on 1 this thing without a HC boost. Not exactly hard to force it out with some bulkier pokes though like Hippo who can phaze as a partner to slurpuff, but you have a rare 1 on 1 opportunity. Non HC versions are iffy in my book anyway.
    Ampharos - Mega or Not, Modest Thunderbolt hurts it. You don't switch in nor set up, and it's not locked into a move like outrage.
    Magneton - Eviolite is taking the rough same damage Drain Punch to normal Aggron would deal, Scarf/Specs locked Thunderbolt still hurts, HP fire is literally Escavalier bait to use, or other Magneton's.
    Hitmonchan - Lacks Bullet Punch, Lacks way to win vs a set up Slurpuff. Has Bullet Punch, then Bullet Punch + Thunder/Ice Punch wins, but imo Drain/Thunder/Ice/Mach Punch are a better coverage set for it.
    Flygon - Situational, more chances to lose than win, because requires perfect prediction and scarf since you won't be switching in unless it uses Outrage.

    Reuniclus - All 3 sets win vs Slurpuff. Kee CM +1 deals it to no set up, LO TR wins out vs a set up, Specs has to not be locked into Focus Miss, which generally is vs Dark types and the occasional Mega Aggron / Porygon 2.
    Venomoth - Lacking Poison move, needs Sleep Powder and 1 Quiver's with Tinted Lens Bug Buzz to win out and prevent the set up. Seeing as it's not that hard to pull a +1 Venomoth, you'd have to 1 on 1 it and hope it's not a Sludge Bomb using one.
    Togetic - Set up bait.
    Draglage - Specs locked anything but Sludge Wave loses, Assault Vest sets generally win, even with a possible -2 thanks to Draco Meteor if 252 Sp.Att Modest. Support is mildly useful as a special tank, so it'd probably lose if it's a Draco carrier over Dragon Pulse/Tail.
    Hippowdon - If you don't have Whirlwind, no hope for you, as a player.
    Hitmontop - Loses.
    Klefki - Convoluted set ups, and it's gonna die, but makes Slurpuff sweeps more annoying to pull off.
    Exploud - Again, Specs Boomburst spam with Scrappy for it is a little lose situation unless very bulky steel types.
    Whimsicott - It's gonna sub encore you and maybe even stun spore. This thing is a literal fucker for everything in the tier at times.
    Amoonguss - One of the few switch ins with a very specific set to use for it, Poison wins vs Slurpuff. Pre Set up, any set can win. Hell Clear Smog is a pretty useful tool for it to run on most sets anyway too.
    Shaymin - Set Dependent, offensive generally wins, bulky ones have little chance in a 1 on 1. However, not using a max speed/sp.att shaymin is generally a weird idea for me to ever see, so slurpuff needs the set up before hand on standard sets or a Seed Flare miss. Bulky can generally be Sub Leech so, yeah you have to get it in before this thing at all and hope it misses.
    Cloyster - It wins, no questions unless you are running a poor set, or wanna be hipster spikes and spin support.
    Sceptile - Leaf Storm of bust, you get caught with a -2, yeah you are losing. 1 on 1 generally too, I think the SD set has a weird shot at winning if you try to switch in on Dragon Move or bait a Leaf Storm.
    Quagsire - I hate this thing and using it as a suspect argument, which I will still not do here because until it's relatively overall omniscient and not just stop the set up sweepers, it'll be here.
    Camerupt - If you aren't using as a Mega in LU, don't use it unless you like a weird fire tank, Fire Blast also wins, Earth Power wins too.
    Moltres - Fire Blast wins, Hurricane has to miss. It's one of those sheer luck win or lose situations.
    Poliwrath - Scald or Phaze vs Set up or Play Rough. Literally the 50/50 involved on both parties. It'd generally lose though unless hax burn or god of predictions.
    Seismitoad - You are risking Scald burns, or if it randomly gains a phazing move like roar (it doesn't get roar btw).

    Durant - If it's not banded or scarf into Superpower, it can win but situational here too. Iron Head obv wins it (even with a -1 LO). Scarf X-Scissor is too weak to 2hko, banded isn't. Slurpuff has mild chances to win.
    Delphox - Fire Blast/Psychic, LO, Specs, CM. It's gonna win just outright. No set up for slurpuff.
    Tangrowth (Tangela at this point more defensive from eviolite) - Sludge Bomb can win it with almost no investment needed. Can tank +6 attacks too. At worst Sludge Bomb does like half, so unless you are set up before hand, no bueno for you.
    Clawitzer - Went over, needs LO (AV is standard), LO is second set generally if at all, but both usable. Scald/Water Pulse or nothing, but slurpuff is gonna have to 1 on 1 revenge sweep it over switching in ever.
    Yanmega - LO Air Slash can win (wish Speed Boost), Specs Tinted Lens is just death for most teams.
    Bronzong - Gyro Ball wins man, it's not gonna set up on Bronzong.
    Smeargle - lol, taunt/sticky web support, or spore/dark void, but easy to play around.
    Jolteon - Discussed before, would need like modest scarf or something which yeah sucks.
    Cobalion - Iron Head, Has SD, hell even special with Flash Cannon can win.
    Meloetta - Special wins it in general unless you have no special investment, which is generally a bad idea. I have no idea why people might use physical, but Relic Song + Return is a KO, Play Rough has a slim chance to KO without Rocks or prior damage to meloetta P.

    This is the cutoff for everything currently considered LU with 4% usage, going on to NU considered stuff:
    Exeggutor - Psychic does like 60% minimum with investment to Sp.Attack, Specs sets would win then. I don't know who would use an eggy this much in LU, but Slurpuff should win this one in general.
    Zoroark - Set up for Slurpuff, good pokemon, but specs/scarf locked into anything but Flamethrower is a loss. If you don't have a super auxiliary move it's pretty much gonna get set up on anyway, but it'd need a 1 on 1 anyway to lose. Flame --> Switch in --> Flame + Belly Turn --> Sucker Punch on LO is actually a loss for slurpuff. So, gotta Drain/Play Rough away on LO ones.

    Golurk - Earthquake + Rocks is all it needs with maybe a nice roll.
    Tornadus - Special wins but that's not missing Hurricane of course, Physical loses 1 on 1 revenge sweep.
    Pangoro - Gunk Shot is literally for any fairy, but loses to Play Rough anyway in 1 on 1.
    Uxie - Trick + Thunder Wave support is what it's doing, otherwise it's set up bait.

    Druddigon - Has Gunk Shot, CB sets lose, really dependent on it's set entirely with or w/o roar or Gunk Shot.
    Sandslash - Poor man's spinner, loses to Slurpuff barring offensive set really, but that set is useless too.
    Stoutland - Wins with Sand support if it's set up, Wins with banded/LO strong in 1 on 1 prior to the set up.
    Ambipom - Overall Fake Out + Return wins it prior to the set up, Hell Return stops the set up too on it's own.
    Wobbuffet - You don't switch it in on wobbuffet b/c encore. If you send in on Wobbuffet, Shuckle, or Whimsicott you are stupid.
    Scrafty - Slurpuff wins here, unless random Poison Jab, but that's too uncommon.
    Abomasnow - Line this up, but prior Blizzard/Wood Hammer + Shard win + hail damage too.
    Milotic - Haze is rare, Scald is needed to burn, otherwise it's setup on.
    Goodra - Has Sludge Bomb, Play Rough needs SR damage to help kill it outright.
    Spiritomb - You lose here, you'd have to trick and you are slower so it'd have to be a trick on a switch.
    Regice - Needs Modest max invested, and this thing is never used in LU anyway unless you want a SR weak AV user. Slurpuff wins.
    Claydol - Weak, Slurpuff wins.

    Steelix - Usable, it wins both normally and mega, but it's overall use is iffy in LU.
    Registeel - If you like para flinch, T-Wave + Iron Head is funny, but otherwise Thunder Wave then set up anyway, Slurpuff wins.
    Shuckle - Encore is all that's needed on a belly drum.
    Glalie - No one uses Glalie in LU, it's pretty poor, but it'd win vs a slurpuff as a Mega. Still no use for LU mostly, negligent to the stats here.
    Skuntank - It's fast or bulky, and has a strong attack with a move that Slurpuff hates, slurpuff loses vs this support.
    Braviary - Banded or an already +1 attack from Bulk Up Brave Bird wins it. Scarf wins prior to the set up and stops it.
    Cofagrigus - +1 CM Shadow Ball means no switching in, risk of WoW and TR is a no switch in, generally you aren't gonna try to set up on a Cofagrigus.
    Accelgor - Less man's fast spiker, has Final Gambit, otherwise generally useless, unless you see something like Sludge Bomb (I think it gets that), eh no one uses it anyway.
    Drapion - SD + WW support on most sets, has a strong Poison Jab too.
    Audino - Pretty useless, both mega and normal, Slurpuff sweeps the team.
    Dugtrio - Banded stops it, Sash is set up bait, Slurpuff wins but can't set up on Banded.
    Rhydon - Rocks + EQ are pretty strong when invested to stop it fully, minimal invest has a slight chance, gets roar anyway. Rhyperior out does it.
    Rotom-C - Leaf Storm suicide set up.
    Qwilfish - Taunt / Thunder Wave + Poison Jab are useful (sash isn't an out of the way option either for some qwilfish).
    Jellicent - Unless all mighty Water Spout Specs set, WoW or Scald burns are fearful, but they don't get it, Slurpuff sets up.
    Cacturne - Seed Bomb twice is enough to kill (it lives a non boosted Drain Punch, dies to Play Rough), Seed Bomb + Sucker Punch may kill. Pending how the player treads.
    Porygon Z - Agreed it was a death killer.
    Escavalier - It wins 1 on 1, wins before set up.
    Cinccino - Banded/LO Tail Slap stops it from setting up, Rough KO chances Rocks has a helpful shot on LO. Drain Punch helps kill Cinccino for Slurpuff and keep it's HP up. Mild ability to kill then.
    Tyrantrum - Head Smash is scary, and if it's a DD or band set, Slurpuff is scarf on everything but dragon move if it runs them for w/e reason.
    Noivern - Specs/LO Air Slash have shit power, Hurricane has to not miss, otherwise it's set up bait.
    Kabutops - Stone Edge/Waterfall prevents set up, but Drain Punch + Unburden ultimately beat it.

    Feraligatr - SF boosted waterfall is winning, Slurpuff isn't strong enough to 2hko. Especially a DD or SD prior Gatr.
    Froslass - Has Taunt. Usually a sash Destiny Bond user too.

    Rest of the pokes were too mediocre for me, hell most of these kind of were anyway too, but like in 1 on 1's slurpuff has a generally good chance to either set up or lose based on the decision the player makes. If it has to switch in, it's never gonna get the set up properly because there's such a list of things that are common on LU teams that prevent it from setting up. You have a chance generally if you play right, but it's generally not an actual big chance if the teams are well made. Multiple SR users can prevent the set up and have powerful STAB moves to use on Slurpuff (not that Slurpuff ever leads really). This is about 90-100 pokemon, half are LU officially, and most teams are made up of the ones from LU (b/c usage stats). I bolded the ones that are yes, if you mess up or have it out vs a Slurpuff you will lose to general set up if you lack something like Fletchinder Acro Priority or some Prankster Thunder Wave or Focus Sash thing going on. Italics/Underline are the ones that generally are shaky in switch in/1 on 1 categories, but Slurpuff doesn't actually have the full upper hand to belly because it'd fear a support move or damage, even though the user might die. 19 out of the 100 will lose to Slurpuff and about 10 of those are even NU and are shitty or used in LU for whatever damn support reason people figure to use them in. About another 20 (again about split between LU b/c usage and those of NU usage) of them are those in the 1 on 1 can lose category are are just have a supporting use to help take Slurpuff down with a status (Thunder Wave). That leaves a good 60 pokemon that I listed that slurpuff isn't gonna have the chance to set up on, especially if rocks or another form of hazard are on the field too in 1 on 1 situations revenge/momentum situations because they have the outright power to stop that, which it becomes entirely not broken as a non +6 slurpuff is just a base 80 attack candypuff. There's even more pokemon that probably could be used that I didn't list, but look at what generally is used vs what isn't and what comprises a good (this means good) team, at least two-thirds of a team can take on a slurpuff if not five-sixths in a balanced or offensive styled team and force it away or to waste the set up. You have to find a way with team support to get those that can TR off the field, or set up a CM, BU, SD, or NP boost out of the way. That takes up team spots to being dedicated to this for it to sweep. As far as defog / spin support for Slurpuff goes, can we all just agree atm it's ok to mediocre level with what we lost? The only things that might fit on most/all teams are Starmie, Flygon, and maybe Hitmontop. We don't have Tentacruel, Gligar, Empoleon anymore, and those were the best at this. The other two hitmons are average spinning potential (hell Lee would rather break walls and teams up than spin).

    I am still not convinced on Slurpuff being broken, because it has a limited certain and magical almost mythical set up turn once or twice maybe in a battle. You have to conserve it til near the end, if it's force out because of Roar or Whirlwind, like any other pokemon, you might be taking some of that prior damage that you don't want and affects it's sweeping potential. Setting up a Belly Sweep generally relies on you making sure your potential target is choice locked into a move you are immune or heavily resist. Pretty easy for most common few pokemon, but not like every team runs a choice pokemon. The choice pokemon in question generally are those of Dark use or Dragon use, some fighting types can nuke with insane power, but for those two the pool is extremely small that you are taking advantage of mostly Flygon, Druddigon, or something like Malamar. I'm not taking anything away from Slurpuff, but this all sounds like it's better on paper than it is experienced in battle. I've used Slurpuff on my teams (both good and shitty to see the difference), and fought it before. Good teams with Slurpuff generally don't need it as a win condition since most cover weaknesses and slurpuff is there to insight fear while the team does the work, poor teams generally rely on opponents making mistakes or doing things that are counter intuitive for it to set up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2015
  15. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Alright, so me and Aurist have had a bit of time to discuss Slurpuff, and to be honest it was a deadlock between us, but more people want to see it banned than to keep it in the tier. So, the decision is for Slurpuff to be banned from ORAS LU.

    Boasting average defenses, with the new fairy typing works well in a defensive nature that gives way to setting up a Belly Drum sweep that is further enhanced by the ability Unburden, Slurpuff presents a win or lose condition from the get go on players from team preview and even teambuilding. All it takes is one turn for the candy puff to turn a set up into an entire team sweep with useful coverage moves that cover it's weaknesses since gaining Drain Punch through move tutors and to keep it's health near full. The only useful way to stop a Slurpuff sweep is stacking offensive pressure on it and not giving it a shot to get in, meaning that Slurpuff can take advantage of choice locked pokemon to it's advantage against Offensive teams, recovery and cleric turns on Stall and Balanced teams, as well as most teams lacking a clear offensive presence for most Pokemon. One turn is all it takes, and with the few definite counters in the tier to a set up Slurpuff, those that are counters are easily worn down thanks to lacking recovery with only a few counters having a form of recovery, but having to be a specific EV set to withstand Slurpuff from a +6 attack. Slurpuff hopefully will be banned from the server as quickly as we can get it, thanks to those who participated, shame on those of you who didn't, we'll get to our next suspects shortly. So, stay tuned.
     
    E.T., Twerk, East's Mascot and 2 others like this.
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