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Suspect Discussion: Aerodactylite (Rose to UU)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Mar 23, 2015.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Aerodactylite from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Mega Aerodactyl as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

    We as tier leaders will address issues and posts as the suspect goes on, so enjoy.
     
  2. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Wow, that was a suspect I never imagined.
    Anyway, Mega Aerodactyl has an excellent speed and a good atk in 135 and.. that's it.
    It's bulk is very average, and its spe atk leaves it very predictable on the side it's going to hit.

    So, let's discuss of the possible moves it can use:
    Aerial Ace, Stone Edge, Roost, Taunt, Defog, Hone Claws, Ice Fang, Fire Fang, Earthquake and Crunch to an extent.
    ( sadly I can't access to the stat page to say what's really used)

    In my opinion, there's a lot of reliable counters in the tiers, such as Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Bronzong if it lacks Crunch, Porygon2 , Hippowdon ( I guess it can play sometimes Aqua tail but not 2HKO and he 2HKO back with Stone Edge) and even Doublade can take a Crunch and OHKO back with Gyro Ball.

    Seriousely, when I know that threats such as Mega Sharpedo are in the tier, I don't feel like the necessity of banning a pokemon that has hard time to break cores. I'll vote No ban
     
  3. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    In my opinion, this Mega Fossil Bird is too much for the current LU metagame. Having a quick look:

    +base 150 speed, reaching 438 with a Jolly nature, is the fastest (viable and somewhat used, so not including Ninjask) pokemon in LU, at +0. It does not need protect like many other megas as a consequence.
    +base 135 attack, and 369 attack is pretty decent, especially considering its speed
    +access to Hone Claws: A good boosting move, which lets it reach 553 attack after one turn of setup, also removing the annoying 20% miss chance that Stone Edge, it's best STAB move, has
    +the ability Tough Claws, which, annoyingly enough, only powers up Aerial Ace and the occasional Fang move on Aerodactyl, not Stone Edge and EQ, which are by far more powerful

    #base 80/85/95 defensive stats, which is decent, but not too good

    -no access to Brave Bird or something like that, meaning it has to rely on Aerial Ace that doesn't need Hone Claws (lol) and has measly 60 base power, even though it is boosted by Tough Claws, effectively giving it ~80 Base power (78, to be precise)

    So what kind of sets does Mega Aerodactyl even run? The most viable set is, in my eyes, a late-game sweeper (maybe with Hone Claws?) (since stats are down, I can't really back this up, though):

    Mega Aerodactyl @Aerodactylite
    252Atk/Spe+
    -Stone Edge
    -Earthquake
    -Aerial Ace
    -Hone Claws / Ice Fang / Aqua Tail / Fire Fang

    What does this do? It comes in late-game vs weakened teams, gets up a Hone Claws which it doesn't really need that much but helps, and proceeds to clean up.
    Instead of Hone Claws, you can also use some kind of coverage move, for example Ice Fang as a nasty surprise for Flygon, Fire Fang for Escavalier that would otherwise tank a hit and kill with Iron Head, or Durant, which does the same, or Aqua Tail for...um...I can't really remember what that does. I have seen it though, and will find advantages once stats are back up. Sorry. And why a Jolly nature? For example:

    252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 240-283 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock -- it still shouldn't switch in, but can at least

    The thing about this set is that it does really well against offensive teams late-game, as you would need a very specific mon to deal with this (see below). Against defensive or stall teams, it would struggle, as well as against walls on balance, because this set is by no means a wallbreaker. Time to find some checks and counters:

    Porygon2:

    252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 123-145 (32.8 - 38.7%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO -- ho ho ho. Aerodactyl, on the other hand, has to fear the TWave, Discharge, or Ice Beam, all somewhat common on Duck2 iirc. Pory2 just recovers off the damage.

    +1 252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 183-216 (48.9 - 57.7%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO -- that looks better, but that is still against SDef Porygon2...

    +1 252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 130-154 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO -- there we go again. And Tbolt / IB is still a pretty sure 2KO.

    So, Porygon2 takes care of it.


    Cloyster:

    252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Cloyster: 204-240 (84.6 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO -- resulting in instant death for Aerodactyl by means of Icicle Spear, or, more likely and even worse, becoming setup bait for Shell Smash even without a sash. Can become a problem for you.


    Durant / Escavalier:

    Essentially do the same: they tank everything unboosted Dactyl throws at them and KO back with Iron Head.

    252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 153-180 (59.5 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 162-192 (50 - 59.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 241-285 (74.3 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Please do keep in mind these are just a bit shaky! If MegaDactly happens to run Fire Fang, it kills both. Instantly.



    Tangrowth:

    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 252-296 (62.5 - 73.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    This may look funny, but it can't really do shit in return and does die quickly. Not a real check in my eyes.


    Doublade: Laughs at everything Dactyl does and kills it with its 504 def. Counter.

    +1 252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 158-188 (49 - 58.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

    Quagsire doesn't really care about how much Dactyl sets up and scalds it, while taking no damage from stabs or the like.

    I might just go add some more later, I can't think up too much stuff from my head (no stats :[ ) without spamming bad theorymon.

    So, Mega Aerodactyl has some very nice answers in LU. So, why the hell do I even think it is broken? Because with the exception of maybe Doublade and Cloyster, Mega Aerodactyl has the possiblity to break offense in whatever way it wants to, whether by means of setup or some coverage moves that spell trouble. On the other hand, it has the bulk and also speed (!) to need a dedicated check on offensive teams (scarf Raikou or random shit like that) to even get rid of it. Especially late-game, if you keep it healthy, it will just plow through weakened mons and is very hard to stop. Not only that, but it has the possibility to be a taunt-rocks-anti-lead or a defogger as well, both jobs it fulfills extremely well with 394 speed before the megaEvo. Therefore, it is not really obvious, but should get a BAN in my opinion.
     
  4. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    @karkinos , you literaly shown 6 checks/counters and I've shown many as well.
    Your argument "Yes Mega Aerodactyl is good in late game because it has excellent speed" - I just want to point out that regular Sharpedo, Mega Absol do the same, and yet that does not mean they're banworthy. Late game sweeper is seen in a lot of Bulky Offense/Balanced, and that does not make all these pokemon so godly to the point you have to ban them.

    Aqua Tail can be useful for Rhyperior because otherwise 252+ Atk Mega Aerodactyl Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solid Rock Rhyperior: 111-132 (25.5 - 30.4%).
    In all my LU games I played, I've never had any problems with Aerodactyl, maybe because it's dual stab is not the best, and especialy because it's only Flying move is 60 base power.

    But hey, let's be honest, a Pokemon with meh bulk, meh moves, very predictable, have a ton of counters usable, even Wobbufet can come and trap it to death, not even overcentralizing ( i've never ever taken into consideration the need of running a check/counter) because of the weaknesses you see everywhere such as Water, Electric, Ice, Rock, Steel. This thing literally loses to all bulky Water/Rock types.

    As usual, I know that suspect always lead to ban because it's a small database player and most of the time people will just end saying "yes it's OP pls ban" but seriousely though,Mega Aerodactyl?
     
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  5. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    Oh my god, Carl. I have already stated that I don't think it lacks counters itself. But: all three of my LU teams have problems with MegaDactyl, and I am no novice at LU. I also don't run a dedicated check or counter, but I do run into trouble playing around Mega Aerodactyl. If you run an offensive team, you will definetely encounter problems. Also, please do not use Sharpedo as an argument, we are talking about Aerodactyl here. If you do want to start comparisons, Mega Absol is quite fast for LU standards, hitting 361 speed with a Jolly nature, but is not comparable to Mega Aerodactyl, that outspeeds LU's best scarfers not named Flygon, such as Emboar, Nidoqueen and others. It also has a lot more bulk compared to Mega Absol (65/60/60) or your regular Sharpedo (70/40/40, lmao.). Yes, late game sweepers are common. But I would essentially compare this thing to Krookodile in the XY era - you could just go spam it late-game with a scarf and it will kill p much everything. Just that Mega Aerodactyl is actually FASTER than Adamant scarf Krookodile, without the need for a scarf, fine coverage and a setup move.

    You say Aerodactyl is very predictable. Come on: Anything that can run a setup move, coverage or a totally different set is NOT predictable. I have lost games to Hone Claws Aerodactyl mind games vs Wobbu on my part, and whilst that could just be my mistake, it should at least remove the "predictability" argument. And as I said, it is effectively about 80 base power on AE, which is not too bad with STAB imo.

    And so what if it has a ton of counters? At the point where a complete playstyle becomes unusable because you have to use somewhat bulky mons just because something p strong with incredible speed is running around, it is broken in my eyes. And I am the last person who screams "broken" right away, as you might remember.
     
  6. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Ok so,

    The biggest difference between Krook and Aero is the fact that Krook will raise atk everytime he kills something, and with scarf, you know how it does in LU, not to mention that Dark/Ground is far way better coverage than Flying/Rock. That's to say that they're not even comparable.

    If I follow your logic, SD Ninjask is freaking good because it can SD late game and kill everything, which is completely false.
    Also, talking of Sharpedo and Absol was for your late game argument, when Priority users are usualy down, and when he just needs to finish a team.

    If you play a heavily offensive team, you won't just have problems with Aerodactyl, but with manys stuff such Tornadus and stuff like that. So eh, it's not really the fact it's Mega Aero that makes your teams weak to it. It's more your playtstyle in my opinion ( also, all your teams are weak to Flygon, just to let you remember that)

    And yes, Aero is very very predictable: it always run Dual stab ( even though I won't recommand it), very often EQ and a filler.

    Still following your logic: Ban Manaphy and Garchomp from OU, they're toxic for Hyper Offensive, ban Serperior from UU, it's toxic for slow teams.
    You need to remember we have more than 700 pokemons nowadays, if some can't really have a good role then they will naturally drop to low tiers. If Mega Aero dropped to LU it's because it has proven to not be enough in UU, and it's currently facing the same issues in LU: too many pokemon walls it to oblivion.

    You just can't ban a pokemon because it makes another playstyle less effective
     
  7. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    Yes you can. That is precisely what people have done in the past with stuff that was walled p easily but just plowed through offense, and that is precisely the argumentation we can observe in the Cloyster suspect as well as, imo, the MegaGross suspect discussion.

    The arguments made above there are completely invalid, you can't compare OU and UU to LU, a much slower metagame where now a mon is loose that outspeeds even scarfers and has a decent attack stat, typing and coverage (as opposed to Ninjask. :x). And how the hell are Manaphy and Chomp even toxic for HO? Also, there is enough slow stuff that walls serp. pls stay on the topic. Yea okay, if stuff doesn't have a good role, it will drop. Have a look into the NU subforum. Look at all the old suspect threads with a "banned" behind them. That's what happens if stuff drop but the metagame can't handle it. Please don't just say stuff drops for a reason as an argument to not ban anything.
     
  8. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    It is not an argument to say not ban. Please read better. Unlike Metagross who severly affect all playstyle, Mega Aero only affects Hyper offensive ( and that's the only type you play, I know very well your teams).

    This suspect is just not well placed. Mega Aero is at the moment, not a problem at all. In a metagame completely dominated by Sharpedo and Doublade and stuff like that, Aerodactyl will virtualy have no chance to set up his Hone Claws. When more than 10 pokemon walls another one, there's no reasons at all to ban it, it's just a risk you take of not taking bulky stuff ( in your case) . This thing just lack offensive presence.
     
  9. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    You refuse to argue decently. First of all, I run Doublade myself, and believe me, Doublade has more than enough options to lose health during the game. If you have to save something like Doublade on an offensive team, I would call that centralizing. If you cannot run even a single playstyle because you have to fear one mon - one mon vs a whole goddamn playstyle, like you just admitted, then that is centralizing. LU can't have a mon just kill off a whole playstyle, therefore it is banworthy.
     
  10. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Do you know how many pokes threaten HO? Sharpedo, Tornadus, Absol, Moltres, Hitmonlee, and I pass a lot.
    HO works in this way: something comes, deals a lot of damages, is KO, and then comes the next strong hitters. You don't even need to switch in your Doublade into the Aero even if you could.

    I'm probably making stronger arguments by saying it only affect one style and saying that 4 others are not affected at all.
    Even Bulky Offense can use stuff like Rhyperior and Ampharos to kill it. Come on dude, it's not because your teams are Aero weak that Aero is the broken stuff.
    My team is ultra weak to Nidoqueen, everything is ohkoed on it, and Nidoqueen can fulfil even more stuff than Aero, being in SR/Tspikes offense etc.. Yet I don't believe it's banworthy.

    If your team is not prepared for the metagame, my only advice is: Either you adapt your team, either your prediction skills, and that's it. ( I don't mind Aero being banned, I don't use it anyway, but just pointing out why it's not broken)
     
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  11. Finchinator

    Finchinator IT’S FINK DUMBASS

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    All it needs is speed and attack given the fact that it has plenty of both, a superb movepool, and an effective typing.

    Stats aren't exactly the most reliable thing anyway given that the stat page takes all usage, not even just Rated, so there's that. Regardless, you're missing a key move that it uses more than Ice Fang, Fire Fang, Crunch, and maybe even Defog - Aqua Tail. Otherwise, that list is pretty accurate. However, you should keep in mind that its ability makes Aerial Ace, Aqua Tail, the fangs, and Crunch hit much harder than they normally would.

    I feel as if you're looking at this in a bit too linear of a fashion. Yes, there are a fair amount of off-the-bat checks and counters to Mega-Aerodactyl, but that doesn't instantly mean it isn't broken; there are other means of being broken and/or unhealthy for a metagame (a prime example of a controversial / suspected pokemon is Mega-Metagross in OU, which has quite the hefty list of checks/counters, but still can be seen as broken by many).

    Mega Aerodactyl has superior speed to both of the things you listed - although Absol has Sucker Punch - from the second it comes in and it has a much easier time taking advantage of the arsenal of moves it learns than Absol/Sharpedo, too. Mega Aero is potent late game with Hone Claws + 3attacks and it can also play a different role with Roost+Taunt or even defog, so you can't fully compare it to these pokemon, either, as it does play multiple roles, it is much quicker, and it has a movepool that can be abused so easily when coupled with its speed, stats, ability, and orientation as a pokemon in general in LU.

    You're blatantly underestimating Mega Aerodactyl. Meh bulk? Ok, I can agree with this. It isn't nearly a glass cannon like its pre-mega form was, but it still has average (80/85/95) to slightly above average (barely, if even at all) bulk for an LU pokemon, is weak to SR, and generally running an offensive spread.

    Meh moves? That's completely incorrect. It can effectively run Aerial Ace, Stone Edge, Aqua Tail, Earthquake, the elemental fangs, and even Crunch in regards to coverage while it can run Hone Claws to make it a sweeper, Roost to increase survivability, Taunt to stop opposing set-up/status/etc., Defog to remove opposing hazards, and even Stealth Rock although it's not advised as there are a plethora of better SR setters and you don't want to waste a turn w/ Aero setting up SR.

    Very predictable? It's the exact opposite in my opinion - with all the viable coverage (even if the fangs and crunch aren't being used) and moves it can use in general, it's hard to predict it. Pokemon like Rhyperior may think they're safe, but Hone Claws Aqua Tail sweeping Aero deals with that. Pokemon like Uxie may think they can come in, set up rocks, and uturn out to their scarfer (if it even outpaces mega aero) or another check, but then you set up hone claws or taunt in their face, and Aero becomes a problem. I can run through a plethora of examples of this nature, but the point is that while Aerodactyl has drawbacks in some areas, predictability certainly isn't one of its cons.

    I don't see how being weak to so many types makes it broken or less broken than it otherwise would be as that's a very basic thing to look at - you can be broken with ten weaknesses or not problematic at all with no weaknesses; it's a matter of what a pokemon does with the moves/abilities/stats it has at its exposure in the metagame it is used in, not a matter of "oh this pokemon is weak to many types, so it's not broken."

    If you're going to go out of your way to question the tier leaders' choices for a suspect, I'd advise at least using proper rational to back up your argument for it not being broken instead of compiling flawed reasons and finishing that post with a condescending and unnecessary insult to the decision to suspect Mega Aero.

    Could go through the last couple posts and similarly poke holes in logic while (at least trying to) proving my own point that Mega-Aero needs to go, but it's not worthwhile as things will get repetitive and I don't have all day, so for the remainder of my post, I'll just quote what I wrote in the potential suspects discussion earlier:
     
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  12. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Answer in bold
     
  13. trc

    trc Active Member

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    even in a suspect somewhat controversial, it will always puzzle me when people in positions of authority make uninformed or poor arguments. not much can be done about that though i guess.

    i'll break it down a bit (mostly directed at carlmurray):
    32973213ey87f487rfg offensive pokemon have average or worse bulk and about 4329743eye293ed8e are only either physical/special but that doesn't make their offensive ability any less ridiculous. it's bulk is definitely not that average which is why defensive spreads aren't even that bad of ideas and why m-aero is far more versatile than you give it credit. yes the "side it attacks on" may be predictable, but is its moveset? its coverage?

    most of the counters you mentioned are only really viable on specific playstyles... not every team can afford to be a defensive balance and run complete momentum killers or forgo an offensive mega slot on something like mega aggron, this is obviously limiting as a balanced tier should have offensive and defensive playstyles viable and thriving. m-aero seriously hinders most offensive builds thanks to its insane speed coverage and attacks; this is not conducive to a healthy metagame. furthermore taunt + roost sets also put in a lot of work against defensive teams, as do hone claws sets, and most of the counters you mentioned are also conveniently spikes bait or lack reliable recovery.

    the reason why regular sharpedo isn't broken and m-aero is despite both being late-game sweepers is because one of them is frail as shit and is actually vulnerable to the most common priority of the tier, and can't break offensive teams nearly as well as aero can because of life orb and weaker moves (not talking about mega sharp because that also happens to be broken :O). making baseless comparisons to random pokemon that have a similar "role" isn't a relevant argument

    and good lord stop saying it's very predictable it's so far from that it's ridiculous jesus christ

    as for the stupid remark about wobbuffet trapping it a) wobbuffet can 1 on 1 trap a lot of pokemon and b) what if it taunts you??????? :O

    "You just can't ban a pokemon because it makes another playstyle less effective" lol

    and i don't get the annoying condescension either about the decision to suspect something broken
     
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  14. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Well everyone is entitled to their opinions fam. If he's server tour staff or not it doesn't really lend credit or discredit to his argument seeing as his position of power isn't relevant to the discussion or tier process.

    Anyway. I literally had a post written out that said much of what TRC's post said. Offensive teams can't all be running Mega Aggron just to make them viable against Mega Aero. Yes any team needs to prepare for threats and yes Mega Aggron fits on offense just fine a lot of the time, but it does take up a mega slot and it is only one Pokémon (I mean there's mega Steelix too but besides volt blocking and STAB EQ it's just a worse Maggron and is still a mega slot.). It's simply not healthy to the metagame to have a Pokémon that forces a certain play-style to use one or two Pokémon on every team to even be remotely competitive in the metagame. Mega Aero is hard to revenge, it's extremely strong, it has setup capability and it's not Sharpedo levels of frail. Shit it even has an immunity and a couple resistances to take advantage of. I'd say I don't think it's healthy for LU at all.
     
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  15. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    A lot of stuff can beat Aero 1v1, most scarfs outspeed and hit for SE, stuff like Feraligatr (+2 Aqua Jet is ohko) and Sharpedo beat it,
    tanks like Milotic, Eelectross, Steelix, Regirock, Doublade, Slowking/Bronzong/Claydol (no one runs Crunch) beat it. I agree that Mega Aerodactyl is predictable (just assume it has Aqua Tail or Taunt) but predicting the mega stone itself is harder as it only has slightly over 50% usage. Also I doubt it's setting up on much with exception of Moltres or Aromatisse. I'll understand if it gets banned but I don't see the big deal personally, I'd much rather a Porygon suspect.
     
  16. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    With Aero moving up to UU for the next 2 months, this suspect comes to an end inconclusively. Any LU tier it comes back to will be different for it than before, so for now this is going to be locked. Thank you to all who took part in the discussion, more threads coming this evening.
     
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