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April/May ORAS LU Tier & Potential Suspects

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Celestial Phantom, Apr 2, 2015.

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  1. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    LU->OU
    [​IMG] Amoonguss
    [​IMG] Starmie

    LU->UU
    [​IMG] Absol
    [​IMG] Aggron
    [​IMG] Aerodactyl
    [​IMG] Ampharos
    [​IMG] Feraligatr
    [​IMG] Magneton
    [​IMG] Rhyperior
    [​IMG] Sceptile

    UU->LU
    [​IMG] Cresselia
    [​IMG] Darmanitan (Quickbanned)
    [​IMG] Gallade
    [​IMG] Medicham
    [​IMG] Mienshao (Quickbanned)
    [​IMG] Pinsir
    [​IMG] Vaporeon

    NU->LU
    [​IMG] Bronzong
    [​IMG] Camerupt
    [​IMG] Jolteon
    [​IMG] Poliwrath
    [​IMG] Seismitoed
    [​IMG] Smeargle
    [​IMG] Stoutland
    [​IMG] Togetic
    [​IMG] Whimsicott

    LU->NU
    [​IMG] Druddigon
    [​IMG] Dugtrio
    [​IMG] Glalie
    [​IMG] Registeel
    [​IMG] Wobbuffet
    [​IMG] Xatu

    So, we have a lot of change ups happening. Starmie and Amoonguss have risen to the OU tier, meaning we lose a great spinner and offensive threat, as well as a bulky pivot and team support. In a budding battle between LU and UU, we have lost most of the pokemon we gained last shift, with Rhyperior, Aggron, Absol, Ampharos, and Aerodactyl rising, as well we lose Sceptile, Magneton, and surprisingly enough Feraligatr. This also means we lose the mega forms, and as such, any potential suspect will have to wait until they ever re-enter the tier.

    Not all is bad though, we have gained some key things from UU as well. Cresselia has fallen, as well as normal Gallade and Medicham. Vaporeon returns to the tier as well providing another bulky water pivot. Pinsir finally drops as well, which gives way to a strong bug type, but I don't see him doing exactly too much for the tier, however he has multiple uses, so he won't be entirely useless in a tier full of Psychic types.

    In a lower field, that matters not at all, we take Poliwrath, Camerupt, Bronzong, Jolteon, Seismitoed, Smeargle, Togetic, and Whimsicott from NU. Where as we will leave them with Druddigon, Dugtrio, Glalie, Registeel, Wobbuffet, and Xatu. That should be real fun for shaking up our lower tier sister the Never Used tier.

    As well, for anyone who didn't really notice, we had both Darmanitan and Mienshao drop today. However, due to the way the tier has changed, and not actually getting much to use, and the case of the their destructive power just from the get go, we've decided that both Mienshao and Darmanitan will be QUICKBANNED from ORAS LU. We convened and went over the scenarios with both pokemon, and they have already had a very strong impact on the tier. They bring with them very destructive power, abilities, and sets that leave very little conventional counters to them, and mostly niche based checks.

    If you wish to have an elaboration on both of them, I can most certainly do so, but for the best interest of continuing on with a healthy metagame formation of LU, we find it'd be best for both of these to not enter and have to wait for suspects to ban them.

    So, go ahead and feel free to discuss any potential Pokemon that you all may feel might have an adverse effect towards a healthy metagame, and we shall discuss it here. First order of business for Aurist and I though, will be to go ahead with Honchkrow and Mega Sharpedo, and work our way from there.
     
  2. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    I can understand why Darmanitan was quickbanned, that thing's an absolute monster, but Mienshao? OK it's fast and powerful, but it's frail as all hell and most bulky Fairies can force it out/KO it. It may well have ended up broken, but it would've been nice to at least try it out.

    I'd say overall LU lost a lot more than it gained. Mega Ampharos leaving is sad, as is Rhyperior (seriously why do people in UU use it, Mega Aggron is just better). Regaining regular Medicham and Gallade could be interesting, as both were stars in BW2 LU. Honchkrow is going to be massively threatening now, as it just lost its 2 biggest counters (Rhyperior and Mega Aggron). Little of note really.
     
  3. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    After the Honchkrow and Mega Sharpedo suspects, I would like to see suspects for Reuniclus and Porygon2 (maybe). Reuniclus is an absolute beast with the defensive Calm Mind set. It's extremely bulky (actually has a chance of living a Crunch from Mega Sharpedo), and with Absol leaving the tier, along with the potential bans of Mega Sharpedo and Honchkrow, I think Reuniclus is even better now than it was before the tier shifts. As far as Porygon2 goes, it is a check or counter to almost every offensive mon that lacks strong fighting STAB. Speaking of which, the two new fighting drops (medicham and gallade) could bring more ways to slay the duck. I'm not sure if it will be ready to be suspected yet, but I would like to see a Porygon2 suspect in the future because the thing just refuses to die.

    Also, Cresselia is another one to watch. I haven't used it yet, and I've only seen one on the ladder, but it could cause problems similar to what Reuniclus can cause, but at least it doesn't have Magic Guard.
     
  4. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this victini into gengar Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    It's been said before by Aurist i believe, and i completely agree with that, porygon2 is one of the few things that are keeping LU from turning into an offensive shitfest. I myself have been using p2 for a while and i feel that even though it provides massive support to my team, it's just not good enough to be banned. The problem isn't with how well it takes on mons like sharpedo and nidoqueen etc, the problem is that people simply don't take it into consideration when teambuilding, imo. Whenever i make a team, i always make sure i have a couple of answers to p2, not devoting a whole pokemon or 2, just making sure i dont get 6-0d by it. It's very easy to fit knock off, toxic, a fighting move, magic guard or whatever in a LU team, i myself have never had any issues dealing with it, without compromising my LU teams with "weird" checks that are only meant for it. Some p2 checks/counters: Hitmons (yes, all 3, if u like toxic hitmontop), scrafty, reuniclus, doublade, emboar, escavalier, bronzong/seismitoad (toxic/knock off) registeel, wobbuffet, gallade, medicham, subcm cress, malamar, etc

    As for cresselia, i tried it in LU right after the tier shifts, and ive never been so disappointed. It is crucial in my UU team but in LU it just doesnt do it, just because so many prominent dark types are in the tier, and because reuniclus is just a superior mon (comparing the cm sets for both) just due to recover and magic guard. It also becomes a set up bait for doublade, and it has very limited recovery. If cresselia would be counted as a bannable mon, it would be from that set imo, because support sets with screens and twave and lunar etc are good, but nothing too threatening that can't be stopped.
     
    E.T. likes this.
  5. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    You say now that P2 holds the tier together or whatever but, after the Honchkrow and Mega Pedro suspects there will be 2 less extremely severe offensive threats which leaves you with less need for P2 to obstruct any attempt at offense. P2's weaknesses are very easily covered by only a few Pokémon save for things like band Emboar which just destroys almost everything anyway.

    Cress was obnoxious and disgusting last time it was here and I think it'll still be the same thing now. Especially if Mega Pedro gets banned. (Which it probably should tbh)
     
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  6. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this victini into gengar Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    Yeah exactly, p2 is the reason why several pokemons arent suspected, it shouldn't be overestimated just because it doesn't die easily. Around the start of ORAS I've used mega pedo a lot, and several equally powerful mons, and the reasons that the team was successful is not because of me or my team, it was simply because the opponent didn't have a good wall and they usually had to sack really often. I think P2 is a needed mon, and even though it still has above average bulk even without eviolite, it would be pretty bad compared to other defensive mons, you don't actually need to have a fighting type to beat it, u just need either that, or knock off, or status etc, and considering porygon2 is a switch in to many things, i can tell u for a fact that it is indeed hard to stop the opponent from knocking it off or severely cripple it. For example, p2 is a very safe switch into nidoqueen, but nidoqueen can set up a tspike on p2's switch and now the opponent is stuck having to take care of it. (I know that this is a very specific scenario that isnt really valid, but it's just an example off the top of my head)
    Also, it is very predictable when p2 has to recover, so it can bait in a lot of powerful mons which would put u in a very difficult situation, such as hitmonlee which completely forces you out, whether you predict the next move or not. and hitmonlee does have a very good special bulk to top it off.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 354-421 (94.6 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    And i still think that if we had to choose between suspecting reuniclus and cresselia, reuniclus would have to go first, cresselia HAS to chose between running sub and lacking (limited 8 pp) recovery, or being prone to status. Reuniclus doesnt need to make that choice, and support cresselia is just a pain to kill, but not anything threatening.
     
  7. NaCl

    NaCl 4

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    I would give a look at Sticky Web, it is a really common strategy in the current metagame, and with the raise of Starmie and Mega Absol (and previously of Gligar) we have really few options to get rid of Sticky Web (Hitmonlee finds some difficulties to do his spinner job with SWeb on field, Flygon is not the best defog user because loves to run choice set, and Golbat, Hitmontop and Togetic are currently the most solid "Hazard Controllers", but they are all niche mons and have some difficulties to fit in all teams); also Sticky web is really strong because in LU there are so many slow strong attackers that fit very well with SWeb strategy (like Nidoqueen, Emboar, Exploud, Tyrantrum and so on) and also have some strong mons that can prevent to remove Sticky Web from the field like Doublade or Spiritomb or also Defiant Tornadus. Lastly the most common Sticky Web setter (Smeargle) has access to strong status moves with Nuzzle and Spore, and has really an easy time to setup his stuffs thanks to the pressure it can bring with his status moves, having little counterplay beside Xatu (even if most SWeb based team run a strong pursuitter like Honchkrow).
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2015
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  8. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Maybe that just speaks to how good Smeargle is right now?
    Its got so many sets thinking of countering it is ridiculous. With spore and nuzzle nothing wants to switch in and geomancy adds another level to its ability to threaten all sorts of teams. I don't find shuckle or even galvantula (when it is in lu) very broken with sticky web, as it is a very situational and there is hazard control to deal with them. When considering they offering very little outside of webs and have no good recovery, I don't see why sticky webs is not a balanced strategy in lu but I do see that Smeargle is stupid good.
    Could we also maybe have a chat about doublade? It doesn't even have to invest in defencive stats and cant be ohkoed on the physical side and has priority, has 110 attk, and a great boosting move w/ coverage
     
  9. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Wouldn't be a bad option, I'd suggest that if it's anything, it'd be Smeargle, because let's face it, Shcukle isn't exactly that great, good for being a wall of sorts, and laying the hazards, but if they are removed, it'd have to come out again and just set them up once more, and that's all it offers with possible Toxic help most times. As for the other sticky web users, they aren't all that great either, and probably more of a wasted team spot, than a use most times. You pretty much have to have Doublade or Spiritomb for your blocker, because they'll live some of the spinner's KO's pretty easily (namely they'll live Hitmonlee's Knock Off), any other ghost that might try and eat one of those is looking at dying.

    It's got great access moves, but there are several very, very sure fire ways to make a smeargle useless too, but they require certain sets. Meaning you'll need to be faster than it, meaning beat 273 max speed. In which case running a pokemon that learns Taunt or Substitute is very beneficial to end it there. Knowing that Smeargle will almost always lead a team makes it pretty easy to predict that, meaning Taunt will shut it down completely. Figuring it's a status/hazard supporter means that Sub sets can block Spore (DARK VOID BECAUSE ESCAVALIER AND GRASS TYPES EXIST), and Nuzzle's effect. That's literally how you mess up an entire strategy centered around Smeargle, which isn't hard to do if you actually prepare for it, also both types of ways are useful for dealing with more stall based teams too. Only problem with the sub sets is when you face a geomancy smeargle and it's partnered with a sound based using Pokemon like Exploud, Meloetta, or Yanmega.

    The problem with one side is that good fast Taunt users is limited to a handful of options, and only a few for each play style, and that it can be reflected by Magic Coat if Smeargle drops a move for it. There's a lot of useful Substitute sets out there on many pokemon in LU, which if you know is vs a lead Smeargle, is your access point to setting up right away. Otherwise, Smeargle is honestly a super support Pokemon at the moment for teams that don't have a way to stop it's support options. You can't just throw Smaergle + Doublade + 4 offensive options and expect them to work well though, so you do have to find some synergy to them.

    Galvantula has never been LU yet buddy, so we'd have to hold off on that speculation. Again though Spore + Nuzzle combo, almost any grass type or ESCAVALIER doesn't mind the switch in. Most are already slow as hell, and yeah countering it limited to two very viable options, Taunt + Sub sets, technically three with lum/chesto rest, and other variations of helping fend off status. Good luck Smeargle support there. Like it is, Sticky Web is a very good strategy, I honestly never have a problem fighting it with my own teams a lot, but using other people's teams, they don't have much of a way in helping against some of the support that SW offers in Spin Blockers or using frailer type offensive. That's usually the main problem I run into any time with other teams. Honestly, SW team I've faced several times now, and it's solid with a few potential holes, but it's not like it is unbeatable by any means, or exactly unhealthy for the tier because you can't just throw Shuckle, Leavanny, or any other SW user out and expect it to make a difference.

    If I'd have to choose any option it'd be Smeargle for possibilities that it help a team with.

    Doublade, it's a very great physical type wall, but it's extremely susceptible to a lot of special attacks. It can hit frailer offensive types for a lot of damage, but they can hit it for a large chunk of damage too. It's HP isn't that great, but it's defensive stat is 150 base, with eviolite investment, it's very good. It can't afford to lose it though, and it has no recovery. You'd have to take damage in small increments, otherwise you are liable to die kind of fast. SD is great if you manage like two boosts, and SS is great for the priority, but you aren't gonna try and face a lot of the special types in LU, which is what would most likely switch in on Doublade if they expect a SD turn.
     
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  10. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Sticky Web certainly is a big threat in this tier right now, with limited ways to keep it off the field or punish it. The defoggers (Flygon, Golbat, Togetic) in the tier are only ok at their job, while Hitmontop and Hitmonlee are quite good / excellent respectively they can't just be thrown on a team and expect to spin every game. The only good Defiant users in the tier are immune to Sticky Web, and Braviary itself is a boon to web teams rather than a weapon against it. And let's face it, noone is gonna be using Primeape or Purugly unless they're desperate. (Purugly isn't -bad- but you could do a lot better)

    We have a lot of threats that benefit from sticky web focused teams including Nidoqueen, Emboar, Kingdra, Exploud, Braviary, Cloyster, Tyrantrum, Gallade, Medicham, among others and none of them are really individually OP with the possible exception of Kingdra (kinda broken not just under web IMO) and Exploud (dear god nothing that isn't Soundproof switches in to this thing)

    I personally rate Shuckle as the best sticky web user, having something of a web fetish myself since the beginning of the tier. Smeargle is a good mon but it's pretty much a 1-2 use thing at best and you can't truly afford to have suicide hazards users in a gen with Defog unless you're running a Defiant user yourself and can punish the guaranteed loss of the web with a sweep. Shuckle gets many switch ins and set ups in a game as long as you don't play it silly. An underrated web user is Masquerain who can perform as a defensive pivot as well as being a web setter but that really is only for a few kinds of team. PS use Parting Shot Smeargle it's really good lol, just be careful of Defiant.

    I can't honestly say I have any ideas about how to look at the prevalence of sticky web in the tier nor can I say for sure if I think it's a bad prevalence. I feel like we should be looking at the threats (Kingdra, Exploud, Nidoqueen??) before considering nerfing it, especially because the usable web setters are quite numerous and banning 1 wouldn't exactly help the situation.

    On another note I think the next suspects after the Sharpedonite one finishes should be Porygon2 and Cresselia. Porygon2 has been getting a lot of attention as it's been extremely difficult to break even when we've had large amounts of broken threats in the tier and we're finally reaching a point where the broken offensive threats are all leaving. I think Cresselia is quite ridiculous right now, it does the same thing it always did which is not die ever, it still has 4mss and it still has a hard time breaking through steels but at this point Cresselia is an insta win condition in a game that turns 4-0s into 0-1s because so little can touch it. Reuniclus is also very worth looking at especially because so many of the threats to it have been leaving and it really is only beaten by Nidoqueen in terms of being able to reliably stop any defensive play, I personally think Cresselia is a more broken mon than it at the moment but if people would rather see Reuniclus suspected first then I can see why that would be.

    RE Doublade, it's a great mon but there's a lot of different ways to handle it right now, it fits on a lot of teams and it speaks to its strength that it can be this common in a tier with Nidoqueen on every other damn team, it's just really not strong enough to be able to break through stuff, having to rely on Shadow Sneak, being outsped and KOed by a lot of the tier as well as being very predictable. It's bulky as hell and hits decently hard, and that just makes it a good mon, not an OP one.
     
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  11. Flygon Jinn

    Flygon Jinn Active Member

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    I think there are hazard removers in the tier that are pretty stellar. I'd add onto the list with kabutops and possibly skuntank and mantine. Just speaking from opposing sticky web teams, balanced teams have no problems with it and while offensive teams definitely need to build for it, it's not too hard. Lotta good priority and lot a bulky ass strong tanks like reuniclus, goodra and mega steelix and whatnot. However that being said, I wouldn't mind seeing Smeargle suspected cuz the baton pass is really what fucks you up and every other sticky web setter is a waste of space so it kinda works out anyway.
     
  12. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Due to the immense amount of ladder activity I have been lagged out of matches and do not have much experience jumping back into the tier.

    I wish I could say that.

    Serious pants though, I just made a team with Porygon2, Cresselia, and 4 other random pokemon and pretty much effortlessly won 3 out of the 4 matches I've played today, mainly because of these two surviving everything people throw at them. And otherwise, switching to one of the offensive pokemon on the fighting and dark moves that get launched at these two. The fourth was mainly because I didn't prepare for rain. At all.

    Don't have nearly enough play data to personally give a good opinion on them but my god P2 is fat as fuck. Keeping eviolite isn't even that difficult, and even without it the natural defense still allows you to wall a great portion of the tier.

    Cresselia is just Cress. I will say that I really didn't see many opportunities where I could set up a CM sweep and actually succeed had I been using a sweeping set, which is an improvement from last gen's LU tier barely being able to stop it. And of course, you can plop the walling set in front of pretty much anything not banded, specs or boosted and watch them bounce off Cress' fat while you guarantee paralysis on something and otherwise do chip damage to things.
     
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  13. Draciel

    Draciel Ghost in the Shell

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    I'm gonna go ahead and ask for a Reuniclus suspect; that thing is pretty much stupid and needs to go. Magic Guard is an amazing ability and allows it to set up CM on most of the tier bar Escavalier/Doublade; Psyshock/Focus Blast/Shadow Ball hits everything in the tier super hard. Even the TR set is threatening in it's own way; Cresselia might be fatter but Reuniclus is more of a threat in my opinion (not like i'm averse to a cress suspect, but i think Reun should be suspected first among the two).
     
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  14. Twerk

    Twerk End Game Team

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    Ok so looking at the current meta, I'd say there are definitely some things that need to be suspected. I'll put them in order of the importance of suspecting them.

    First off: Cresselia- tbh I'm surprised this wasn't quickbanned along with Mien and Darm, but w/e. This thing needs to be suspected for obvious reasons, it's incredible bulk and lack of checks in the meta.

    Porygon2: Same thing with Cress, this thing is bulky af. However I wouldn't prioritize him as high as Cress because he has a few more checks than Cress (fighting types ofc)

    Reuniclus: This is a long overdue suspect. Reun is a incredibly good pokemon with a good amount of sets (TR, CM, AV, and LO, all of which perform well in the meta) With all of these sets he's a bit unpredictable and lowers his number of checks a bit

    Sticky Web: Honestly I don't think this is hardly as important as Reun, Pory2, or Cress, as the meta is currently pretty slow as it is, but it's definitely worth a look. There are very small amount of Defiant users in the tier (main one is Bravairy which is immune to Sticky Web) so "checking" Sticky Web is harder.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2015
  15. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Welcome our new 3rd LUTL @NaCl ^_^

    We probably won't be having any more suspects until the start of next month, but hopefully we should have a forum challenge n updated stuff for yall soon
     
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  16. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I would like to see a Porygon-2 suspect, it is so bulky and it difficult to wallbreak
     
  17. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    ^ I would second that, KOing that thing without STAB Fighting moves is nigh impossible. It does have its flaws: it is extremely passive, and Normal typing lacks resistances (although it does only have 1 weakness). Plus, it would be nice to suspect a defensive Pokémon for a change - Cresselia was so far the only defensive mon to be suspected in ORAS.
     
  18. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Also can't do shit to Escavalier, has Doublade problems, and knock off is splashable enough in the tier where it needs to be extremely careful about what it actually comes in on. It also has massive problems with other walls, since it loathes getting toxic'd and needs that HP to actually do its job against wall breakers other than Emboar.

    A suspect test would be understandable, but honestly P2 is kind of like the Nidoqueen of defensive pokemon; it is probably the most bulky thing all around in the tier (when not knocked off) but it can't really do anything with that bulk. It just sits there throwing around weak attacks at frail pokemon while trying to toxic walls. It hasn't really screamed broken while I've used it.

    Also Cresselia was actually banned for its offensive capabilities, using that bulk to set up and sweep on a large number of pokemon in the tier. Its lunar dance sets were nice to breath life into offensive pokemon and was the main reason to use(and ban) defensive cress, but it kind of had porygon2's problem when it came to walling. Just sits there as a status platform until the time comes to Dance.

    Although download helps against aforementioned frail offensive pokemon. Still can't do much in the damage department against things that are a bit more beefy.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2015
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