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Suspect Discussion: Honchkrow (banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Apr 2, 2015.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Honchkrow from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Honchkrow as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

    NOTE: This suspect will be min. 1 week in duration, so get your posts in ASAP!

    [​IMG]
    KACAW
     
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  2. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Honchkrow is a Pokemon with the very unique combination of Moxie and STAB Sucker Punch. Its base 125 Attack stat is ideal for a Moxie user as well, and it also has a usable base 105 Special Attack for mixed sets. However, having 100/52/52 defenses makes it pretty frail, and its base 71 speed isn't very impressive, but is acceptable for out-speeding the bulky walls in the tier. The most common set run by Honchkrow is something like this:

    Honchkrow (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Moxie
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Pursuit
    - Sucker Punch
    - Brave Bird
    - Roost/Superpower/Heat Wave

    Basically, Pursuit lets it trap things to grab a Moxie boost, and once it gets that, a snowball effect can start leading to a sweep. Check out this damage:
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 44 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 305-360 (91.8 - 108.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    (This Nidoqueen is running just enough Speed to out-speed Adamant Honchkrow)
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sharpedo: 273-322 (97.1 - 114.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 181-213 (64.4 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 325-383 (104.5 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hitmonlee: 224-264 (92.9 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    (Although SP might not be best here because of Mach Punch)
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Emboar: 192-227 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (scarf Emboar)
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Flygon: 364-430 (120.9 - 142.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 308-363 (98.4 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Durant: 246-290 (95.7 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 285-335 (95.9 - 112.7%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    Many more examples, but I'll stop here.
    I think it is clear that Honchkrow only needs to be a +1 to destroy offense. Apart from Scarf Emboar or random Substitute users, there doesn't appear to be much that offense can do to stop it once it gets a Moxie boost. However, since Sucker Punch isn't the most reliable move, Honchkrow can have Roost that it can use to repair damage done due to recoil while the opponent doesn't want to attack, or it can just smash stuff with Brave Bird. So what can reliably stop this bird?
    Aromatisse is a nice check. It can't switch in safely, but it can OHKO with Moonblast.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 242-285 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Mega Sharpedo can OHKO with Ice Fang, and it takes a +0 SP acceptably, but if it lacks Ice Fang and Honchkrow goes for BB then rip.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 121-143 (43 - 50.8%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 414-488 (121.4 - 143.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 255-301 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 364-429 (129.5 - 152.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Doublade can be a very shaky check if can take advantage SP mind games, but only if Honchkrow doesn't just roast it with Heat Wave.

    Porygon2 can counter Honchkrow variants that lack Superpower, and it can still check +1 Honchkrow.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 190-224 (50.8 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Note that BB on the switch+Superpower can KO.
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 211-250 (56.4 - 66.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Analytic Porygon2 Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Honchkrow: 294-346 (86.2 - 101.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

    Registeel can turn Honchkrow into setup bait with the Curse set if it lacks Superpower, but against Superpower, it's dead.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 255-302 (70 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Registeel Iron Head vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 172-204 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Registeel: 172-203 (47.2 - 55.7%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Mega Steelix checks sets with Heat Wave or Superpower, and it counters other sets.
    0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Steelix: 138-164 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Steelix: 174-205 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
    4 Atk Mega Steelix Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 264-312 (77.4 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Whimsicott can outspeed and KO with Moonblast, it laughs at SP, but it cannot switch in safely.
    Out of this list, several of these cannot switch in safely unless they come in on a Sucker Punch, and only 2 have reliable recovery. Honchkrow just really doesn't have any solid counters, and unless a check is still alive, Sucker Punch mind games may be the only way to get past it once it gets a boost.

    In my opinion, Honchkrow can easily get a Moxie boost thanks to Pursuit and Sucker Punch, and then it is just too much for the tier after that. I think Honchkrow should be banned from ORAS LU.
     
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  3. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    So, @E.T. has said quite an amount of things. I'd like to disagree in some points though: In my opinion, a Jolly nature is crucial to be able to deal with offense. To make my own experience with Honchkrow understandable, I'll explain how I use it:

    Honchkrow @Life Orb
    Trait:Moxie
    EVs: 4 HP /252 Atk / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    -Brave Bird
    -Sucker Punch
    -Pursuit
    -Superpower

    Good points: Really strong, hitting 349 Attack even with a neutral Nature. Why not Jolly? Because it will be slower than any Jolly Emboar variant, slower than Hitmonchan, and please insert any random offensive mon here. I mentioned Emboar specially because it doesn't give a damn about Sucker Punch and KOs Honchkrow with anything it has, outsped only by a JOLLY Honchkrow. I happen to use the Jolly variant on a Sticky Web team to get rid of Scarf Emboar as a revenge killer. Has Pursuit: Is something that can failsafely get rid of the goddamn Slowking nobody wants to see. Traps Cress. Does lots of good stuff offense wants. So, why would it not be broken? It is by no means fast. 265 with a Jolly nature, when usage stats indicate Adamant is used more often, is still not much, and an Adamant Nature loses to quite the amount of stuff. 140 on both defenses are pretty bad (base 52) and cannot be remedied by its base 100 HP it needs to sponge the immense BB recoil damage and LO damage, which will wear it down quickly. Note: On to the checks, E.T. mentioned a few already:

    Doublade is all but a shaky check. It does have to fear SpA moves, but these moves do nothing except for taking care of Doublade, while bitterly missing the coverage Superpower provides later. It does make sense to pair Honchkrow with Nidoqueen with regard to this.

    Agree with Aromatisse.

    Seeing as Honchkrow will likely have taken some damage when Mega Sharpedo comes in, 74-88 % should be more than enough to take care of Honchkrow as it will be worn down by BB and LO, respectively. With Ice Fang, this is even less of a problem, and it will always outspeed Honchkrow, even with Web up.

    Can't say much to Pory2...this thing is so bulky, you can kiss your BossBird goodbye if you don't run Superpower.

    Registeel: PLS do run superpower. Same for MegaLix, you want your Superpower for these Steel types.

    Who even uses Whimsi?

    Klinklang (why does this thing have >9% usage...?) looks like a decent revengekiller to me:

    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Klinklang: 242-286 (85.2 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Klinklang Gear Grind (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Assuming Honchkrow got a kill before and therefore took some LO damage. By the way, Honchkrow's frail self does NOT enjoy having Rocks up, taking away even more of hits precious HP it needs to sponge up all the recoil damage.

    If Honchkrow got a boost, Hippowdon tanks anything and forces it out with Roar, thus creating more Stealth Rock damage if the rocks are up, or maybe even killing it with a Stone Edge (that's rare though). Honch, having lost its boosts, might have a hard time getting one again and overpowering any team an opponent has...

    Cresselia forces Honchkrow into Pursuit/Sucker Punch mindgames, doing decent damage with Moonblast/Ice Beam:

    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Pursuit vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 174-205 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 346-408 (77.9 - 91.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Cresselia Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Honchkrow: 180-214 (52.7 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Please do note that Honchkrow should be the one trapping Cresselia....

    Golbat tanks any attack Honchkrow has at +1 and has a 2HKO in BB which will not kill Honchkrow but take enough life out of it to render it useless (recoil!).

    Durant can take unboosted Sucker Punch, outspeeding and doing around >90% with either STAB.

    Mega Abomasnow...:

    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Mega Abomasnow: 290-343 (89.7 - 106.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    160+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 230-272 (67.4 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

    And as it has to fear Ice Shard it might as well use Sucker Punch. The Abomasnow user might take a risk and OHKO with Blizzard though...

    And there might just be many more out there. What do we learn? Honchkrow has a problem overpowering a lot of stuff, requiring a boost to do so. It has to rely on Sucker Punch lots of times, which is not really good. It hates Stealth Rock, has no defenses and thus dislikes Priority as well (I didn't calc here...) while taking constant recoil damage from Brave Bird and Life Orb. Even at +1, it struggles. It also has some hard counters in bulky Steel types and Pory2. If, however, you break its counter and somehow let Honchkrow reach +2, offense will have a veeerryyy hard time getting rid of it (almost impossible). Honchkrow is, in that sense, a high-risk-high-reward pokemon that really needs support to kill things (it can't sweep whole teams due to the recoil damage BB has). In that sense, Honchkrow is strong, and an invaluable trapper for those nasty Psychic-types (Reuniclus, Slowking, maayybe Cress, etc) but not really broken. I'd say it should stay in the tier, and vote no ban.
     
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  4. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    hi @karkinos i have been observing your recent posts in the uu and lu subforum. funnily enough, your post is littered with pokemon that aren't even checks to begin with anyway (like aboma ? _ ?) or you listed pokemon that are at best very shaky checks that doesn't even function if they take a small dent of damage. furthermore, your post demonstrates how stupidly strong honchkrow is and i was honestly completely mistaken by your entire post as i thought you were pro-ban because of your calcs until you ended it with "no ban". while it is completely true that honchkrow relies on sucker punch a bit too much to get around faster threats, you fail to state that honchkrow snowballs offense teams way too easily with just moxie+sucker punch alone, which is the very reason why it is suspected in the first place.

    honestly i feel that adamant is a nicer option for more power which ensures a lot more drops into 1hko range or guarentee the 1hko and emboar only runs jolly to speedcreep honchkrow from what i know but feel free to tell me if im wrong.

    i feel that honchkrow is broken because simply put, no universal counter exists for this pokemon in the tier. While there were instances in the past such as bw2 ou hydreigon that didn't have any counters in their respective tier either, what pushes honchkrow over the edge is its access to extremely strong STAB priority which lets it possibly break past even its own checks given that they received a bit of damage (like as the above calc shows scarf flygon which is arguably one of the best revengekillers in the tier getting cleanly 1hkoed by sucker punch alone and hitmonlee taking a massive chunk from sucker punch). hydreigon was still managable to revenge-kill because it cant possibly carry LO and scarf together and lacked any priority to beat its checks. the fact still remains that honchkrow matches up amazingly well vs both offense and stall as it usually picks off offense lategame w/ sucker punch and wallbreaks stall before it eventually kills itself w/ bb+LO recoil. im definitely leaning to a ban because of its stupid power and a complete lack of counters while only having shaky checks to compensate.

    whimsicott is a good mon man,,, prio encore+stun spore is so valuable for offense and a soft check to flygon, hitmonlee, kingdra, sharpedo and friends is always very nice to have.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 7, 2015
  5. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    Interestingly enough. well, i can't say any more to that, can I? you can have what you want, I'll stop posting. one quick thing about honchkrow though: honchkrow itself cannot afford to take damage if it wants to survive priority or a revengekill from mons that can take only one hit - you arguing that the checks are shaky because they can't afford damage seems hypocritical to me. have fun banning every goddamn mon in every tier, i won't stop anyone.
     
  6. Dr. Fomantis Toboggan

    Dr. Fomantis Toboggan man in the couch

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    Aside from max speed emboar there's not much reason to run Jolly what with the walls Honchkrow can 2ko when Adamant. I have no idea who would run Hitmonchan with the two other hitmons in the tier. Also Heat Wave hits more than Doublade. It hits Klefki, Steelix, and Toxic Bronzong further more without drops and recoil. P2 has a 50% chance to get 2ko'd after Stealth Rock by Brave Bird anyway, so Heat Wave is pretty damn viable. Hippo can't be 2ko'd unless it runs some special defense to check Jolteon and whatnot. Even with maxed out defense, to check Honchrow it has to stay completely healthy as a Brave Bird can do as much as 50%. Whirlwinding Honchkrow away will solve the problem for a bit but with Roost Honchkrow can be a far more lasting threat.

    Who uses Whimsicott? Bitch i use Whimsicott
     
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  7. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    [​IMG] Whimsicott finds your lack of faith disturbing. (Seriously it's a good mon, I use it a lot, it's solid anti-offense/utility with a really useful typing for the tier)

    My personal stance on Honchkrow mirrors Sakuya Izayoi's quite a lot, my biggest problem with it isn't that it's "unbeatable" as that's clearly untrue with its 0 bulk and reliance on recoil to get the job done, but that the tier just has absolutely no solid answers to it, wearing the few checks actually in the tier down for Honchkrow is as easy as having SR up or hitting with a weak attack and I think karkinos' calcs prove that quite strongly despite his anti-ban stance, as well as this being one of the few pokemon for which Porygon2 isn't an actual solid answer. Honch has a more difficult time against out-and-out offense while wrecking other playstyles but Sucker Punch mitigates that quite a lot, managing to KO even solidly bulky offensive mons.

    The loss of every single solid answer to Honch in the tier to the realm of UU over the past 2 tier changes (Ampharos, Magneton, Rotom-H, Aggron, Rhyperior, etc) has been a primary reason for it being suspected, Honchkrow is pretty much guaranteed to take down 1-2 pokemon every game with no prediction required because it has no real switch ins and even if you play Honch like absolute ass, e.g. not getting the like 5-15% most of its checks need in prior damage to be taken down, the checks it has are quite easy to bait with mixed or sub sets because they're the only way any team is actually getting around it. Teams 100% have to rely on either consistent offensive pressure that can't be OHKOed by Sucker Punch, or on hoping their defensive pokemon don't get baited hard or keeping them totally healthy through the game (Klefki, Hippowdon, Doublade etc) which most of them can't afford to.

    In case it's not obvious I'm definitely pro-ban on Honchkrow, there's simply too little reliable ways to beat it that don't rely on saccing to take it out or keeping your defensive pokemon out of play until it comes in. It's both a scary wallbreaker and a win condition in every game it's in and is just too much for the LU tier, imo.
     
  8. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I think it's pretty obvious, but Honchkrow isn't exactly going to be ripping teams apart entirely easily, or sweeping entire teams without a few obstacles. However, it's one of those Pokemon that doesn't need to do much. It's already very powerful with 125 base attack, and 105 base special attack. It's speed is very average, and deciding on needing Jolly or being able to pass with Adamant is a very big thing with Honchkrow. Adamant is preferred, but honestly Jolly/Hasty isn't that bad either, since there is a speed tier in there that you can outspeed for. It's defenses are lackluster at 52 base each, but a 100 base HP still means that on average you actually can tank an average hit, maybe even two.

    There's one thing anyone can guarantee about Honchkrow, and that it is going to run Sucker Punch and Brave Bird. Beyond that, it's got a nice set of moves at it's disposal to combine into a strong strategy. Substitute and Roost can be used to keep status such as Paralysis and Burns away, while also keeping your HP up. Add in that a set with these moves also take advantage of defensive based teams that try and subdue Honchkrow though status so they don't eat any Sucker Punches. It also gets Heat Wave, Superpower, and Pursuit. Heat Wave and Superpower are very good for getting steel types weakened to a point, and with the fact steel no longer resists Dark moves, Sucker Punch is a lot easier to use against them. Heat Wave is generally for not taking a -1 in Attack and Defense, but it's also somewhat weak against the bulkier Pokemon like Registeel or Porygon2 if you lack Superpower. Due to it's ability to generally force switches, Pursuit is actually a highly viable option for any set especially with the amount of psychic types, or just picking off weaker targets for an easy +1, it's great in that regard.

    Honchkrow is very easily click and watch something die, and get a free boost from it, because it's two main stabs are almost unresisted. Especially since one of those STABs is a +1 priority that helps alleviate it's medicore speed. In some cases of this game, you might have to sacrifice something to allow a Pokemon to come in and kill it as a revenge if they can tank a hit or outspeed and kill back, but Honchkrow extremely limits that ability, why? Moxie. If it's allowed to kill something, a fair amount of revenge killers now have a very high mortality rate thanks to +1 Sucker Punch. If it gets beyond that, it's a game over, unless you are capable of outplaying the set, and even in that vain, sets for this are pretty limited.

    Like, to weaken it, there is Intimdate users, but the only good ones in the tier are Hitmontop, Granbull, and Qwilfish. Hitmontop can still get OHKO'd by Brave Bird, so no ground is gained, and you lose a support pokemon there, and Qwilfish has a chance to get KO'd by -1 Brave Bird. Which leaves Granbull as a usable option, and check against Honchkrow, because it might not be a 2hko, but it's pretty damn near close.

    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 157-187 (47 - 55.9%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    -1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 160-188 (41.7 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Switch ins for that type of strategy become limited already, even worse if it has a sub up that blocks the ability.

    There is priority and just generally faster pokemon, or some bulkier pokemon. However, the faster pokemon aren't just going to switch into a Brave Bird or Superpower to the face, which defeats their purpose, and a +1 Honchkrow can easily dispose of them with Sucker Punch. Examples:

    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flygon: 328-386 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 242-285 (59.6 - 70.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery <-- that's a 2hko to Honchkrow, and it's taking roughly 200 in recoil damage, out of a 341 HP stat, leaves Honchkrow a lot of Sucker Punches to work with. About 5 to be exact barring weather or other status effects, or faster priority.

    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 360-425 (88.6 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO <-- Post Moxie, with Rocks up, it's almost there with a guaranteed KO.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 243-289 (81.2 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, free KO if it has to attack, i.e. no substitute.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Noivern: 218-257 (70 - 82.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, That's a high rate for a free KO.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Golbat: 243-289 (68.8 - 81.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, One of the two common Golbat spreads. That's cutting it close.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 165-195 (46.7 - 55.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, So...we learn Golbat won't switch in on a Honchkrow unless it wants to die. A +1 Honchkrow gives you the damage for the Sp.Def variant Golbat seen above.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Vaporeon: 294-347 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery, that's not bad if it doesn't have a boost. So mono-a-mono, you got this. +1 has the smallest hope of not killing without Rocks I might add.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 188 Def Meloetta: 361-429 (89.3 - 106.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, Melo can sub, which would lead to a win....BUT....252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 188 Def Meloetta: 270-320 (66.8 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery....There's a chance it might not get to sub. Though a higher Def investment makes it easier, or having the sub up before Honch is out! However, Hyper Voice doesn't KO Honch, but carrying T-Bolt would. Any other set, Sucker kills, unless you manage to stall out with CM set, you'd be BB+SP mind game there.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 578-682 (169.5 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 149-177 (43.6 - 51.9%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hitmonlee: 148-175 (61.4 - 72.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hitmonlee: 224-264 (92.9 - 109.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    One of the rare occasions of cross killing. Lee can almost kill itself to kill Honchkrow, or at least take a chunk out of Honch's HP pending the Moxie situation. Neither one comes out unscathed, and will be in dead zone.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Exploud: 265-312 (75.7 - 89.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock, Exploud is actually slower, so Superpower or BB actually kill too, but the ease of Sucker Punch is once again dominant on pushing a button. So, you'd actually have to scarf the Exploud to "win".

    0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 218-257 (69.8 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock.
    0 SpA Life Orb Honchkrow Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 146-174 (45.9 - 54.7%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Honestly, really niche anymore, but it still hits other steels like Mega Steelix. You'd only use if your Honch has a weakness to those mons without a +1 superpower guarantee. Still useful though. Doublade doesn't like any Sucker Punches anyway, both it and Zong might get forced to attack due to Substitute sets.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 207-243 (66.1 - 77.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock, Not bad, but rocks exist.

    I could repeat this on and on and on. But, it's plain as day for Honchkrow, Faster offensive types are dead to sucker punch after a +1, pretty much guaranteed, especially with Stealth Rocks up. Bulkier pokemon have little chance to switch in, because they are 2hko'd by Brave Bird. The highest rate of chancing it against Honchkrow? Being faster and being strong enough that if it does use Brave Bird (and you or it lives) it suicides with you unless you kill it mean, you also have to live Sucker Punch if it goes that route.

    That being said, Honchkrow does not like switching in at all. That makes it a revenge sweeper. Which means you also have to usually let something die and sack it so Honchkrow comes safely on the field. It's what makes Honchkrow a great middle game to late game sweeper, because by then a fair amount of Pokemon will have taken damage that Sucker Punch range is very, very feasible, and it'll gain boosts easily. You basically have to match it, by being faster, stronger, and healthier at that point, so it doesn't get that. It's made easier at times with the fact Honchkrow hates rocks, and if you don't give it a chance to Roost, it's can wear down easier.

    Some things that come to mind are: Cresselia, Hippowdon (both set spreads), Cloyster. All three can tank Honchkrow Brave Bird, and fight back forcing it out, or dying to it. @karkinos the only time Cress should ever be in a situation like that against Honchkrow is if it's Pursuit actually kills something, and you are actually running Pursuit on Honch. If it doesn't get that, well Cresselia has a strong win %. You switch in, sponge the BB hit usually, and then Moonlight the damage off for a bit. Seeing as Cress can run Thunder Wave as well, it makes the match up easier too. Hippo sponges any non +1 hit easily, and if it is +1, better hope you are a physically defensive version to help force it out. Useful though if it does get one kill, so you send this guy right out. Cloyster can win against most Honch with Ice Shard + LO or being sashed with no breaking it. Honch would have to run Jolly to not actually die out so easily, but sashed would still win.

    There's Cobalion, Sawk, "Cofagrigus". Drapion, Sharpedo (Mega), ya know pretty limited options in terms of dealing with Honchkrow. Dark moves have only 3 resists in Fighting, Dark, and Fairy types, one of which is defeated by Honch's other stab (and most of them are actually slower than Honch too). There's not too many other Dark types, and Honch has Superpower, and even a +1 SP with rocks can be enough for a few Dark types. Fairy types are few as well.

    For me, it's one of these really weird Pokemon. I mean there's a very real situation that Honchkrow really fails at, which is trying to take most Pokemon on unboosted, and pretty much at full HP. If it doesn't KO or 2HKO the switch, it doesn't get to roll to getting it's job started. But, we can't exactly keep up the idea that most of the Pokemon that outspeed and outpower it to stay near 90-100% of health for the full game, it's rare to see that it doesn't get some form chance to set up. If it gets a KO, it also gets a free boost, it's not one of those pokemon that are locked in unless you do actively use a CB or CS, but it doesn't actually need that item, which leaves your options open. At +1 it becomes very hard for a greater than 80% of the tier to handle, at +2, there's no stopping the Sucker Punch massacre. There's obvious ways, meaning that you'd need help getting there (Fighting type help for stuff like P2, Registeel helps) which is easy thanks to pairing with Hitmonlee, Gallade, Medicham, or even Hariyama and Hitmontop. Any damage it can acquire usually is helpful with Spikes or Rocks, or just anything that can help chip damage away, because it leads to free boosts, unless you actually can mind game it.

    That's my view so far.
     
    NaCl and E.T. like this.
  9. Hillary Swüinzenberg

    Hillary Swüinzenberg New Member

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    Reading the comments above and checking the usage rate of the Pokémon in LU I realized that it is very difficult to stop Honchrow if it can defeat an opponent, and as already mentioned its most powerful counteres just going to UU there is a lot to prevent Honchrow to activate Moxie and become very difficult to stop, I want to inform another Check Possible: Dusclops, since only Night Slash really OHKO threat it prevents Sucker Punch using WoW, leaving it useless in general is a case the lla Greninja, not very resistant but can give 2HKO in almost all combining Brave Bird + Sucker Punch, if I can vote. vote by BAN.
     
  10. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    OK, so the minimum time for the suspect is over and we've had a large pro-ban side with very minimal opposition, so Honchkrow is now banned from the LU tier.

    The tier's lack of pokemon which can solidly check Honchkrow in a game, combined with the loss of almost all of its previously established solid checks to higher tiers, led to a situation in which the ways of stopping Honchkrow were limited to keeping a small amount of pokemon healthy throughout an entire game, or consistently having offensive pressure which does not get OHKOed by LO Sucker Punch, preventing it from coming into play - both of these things are not only rare but also easily baited by Honchkrow's variety of sets, as options for dealing with Honchkrow are so limited that Honchkrow can freely choose whether it wants to stop its checks or more reliably pull off a mid-late game sweep, leaving the onus of prediction strongly in favour of the Honchkrow user over the other player. Honchkrow's presence in the ORAS LU metagame is one of a consistent wallbreaking threat and is a turn 1 win condition in most game it's in, whether its opponent predicts well or not. Honchkrow may not be an instant sweeper but it is practically guaranteed to take down 1-2 pokemon per game regardless of team support or how it is played, and the only thing mitigating that is reliance on recoil. Honchkrow has proven simply too much for the LU tier in its current state.

    The ban should be occurring shortly on the server. Thank you all for taking part, and make sure you get your posts in for the Mega Sharpedo suspect because that has about a week left!

    ~
     
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