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Suspect Discussion: Sharpedonite (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, Apr 2, 2015.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Sharpedonite from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Mega Sharpedo as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.​

    [​IMG] :W​
     
    Twerk, Edna, E.T. and 1 other person like this.
  2. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    By experience, I'ld say that Mega Sharpedo can be broken:
    Very good offensive stats in 140/110 so you can play some mix sets, a good speed in 105, with non mega form having access to Speed boost.
    Defensively it's still frail and still takes a ton of damage even of resisted attacks.
    Mega has a nice ability that raises attacks such as Crunch and Fang moves.

    Most common set is Protect, Waterfall, Crunch, Earthquake/Poison Jab/Ice Fang.
    This is some fearsome late game sweeper, it can easily finish a team that has lost it resists to it.
    It has some nice counters that being said ( P2,Registeel etc)

    Now, I have to talk about what problems can encounter Mega Sharpedo.
    If it has Mega.evolved and been sent out, it loses all of it's efficiency, so the user really have to play it wisely and not Mega too early.

    Now, what I find scary about Mega Sharpedo, among all i've already said is Destiny bond. This move is very underated on M.Sharpedo, the Dual stab is usualy enough and if you really need to take down let's say Aromatisse, D.B will guarentee a kill.

    I do believe that Sharpedonite is broken, but I also think that sharpedo itself is the broken stuff in it. Yeah, ban
     
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  3. E.T.

    E.T. SSSSSSSSSSSSS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Mega Sharpedo can be a very devastating late game sweeper. With Strong Jaw combined with the base 140 attack, Crunch is strong enough to OHKO things like Flygon. Mega Sharpedo can also be hard to revenge kill because the Speed Boost that the normal form has can usually ensure that Mega Sharpedo is at least at +1 speed thanks to Protect. Another thing that makes Mega Sharpedo harder to revenge kill is the fact that it doesn't take Life Orb damage every time it attacks, and it also has slightly better bulk than its base form.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sharpedo: 354-421 (125.9 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    vs
    252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 237-281 (84.3 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    It still gets decimated by Mach Punch, but it actually has a good chance of surviving if it's at full health.
    So, Mach Punch is obviously the bane of Mega Sharpedo's existence, but what other ways are there to stop it offensively?
    Cloyster has enough defensive bulk to take a hit, shell smash, and revenge kill. However, this only works if Mega Sharpedo isn't a +2 or more.
    Shaymin can take a hit and KO back with Seed Flare.
    Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan can usually revenge kill it with Mach Punch if it has taken slight damage.
    Other than that there are a few offensive mons like Whimsicott or Virizion who can check it if it has the wrong coverage.
    Mega Sharpedo seems to be pretty difficult to reliably check offensively, but what about defensively?
    Porygon2 laughs at Mega Sharpedo's strongest attack:
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 81.3% chance to 3HKO
    With Download, Porygon2 can OHKO back with Thunderbolt, or if it has T-Wave, it can cripple Mega Sharpedo and then wear it down. Porgon2 checks most offensive mons that lack strong Fighting STAB though, so this shouldn't be surprising.

    Doublade takes heavy damage from Crunch so it can't switch in:
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Doublade: 216-254 (69.2 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    However, it can KO back with Sacred Sword+Shadow Sneak:
    252+ Atk Doublade Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 256-302 (91.1 - 107.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 42-51 (14.9 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO

    Aromatisse can pretty reliably switch in on any attack and OHKO with Moonblast. It just has to avoid getting poisoned on the switch.
    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 135-159 (33.2 - 39.1%) -- 8.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Poison Jab vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Aromatisse: 180-212 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Aromatisse Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sharpedo: 288-342 (102.4 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Hippowdon can tank a Waterfall and phase Mega Sharpedo out to remove the speed boosts, or possibly finish it with Earthquake if it is at low health.
    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 194-230 (46.1 - 54.7%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 159-187 (56.5 - 66.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after sandstorm damage

    Hitmontop can switch in on anything and KO back with Close Combat.
    -1 252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 76-90 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    And just for giggles:
    -1 252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 102-120 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- 15.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Hitmontop Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 330-390 (117.4 - 138.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Cobalion can take a hit and KO back with Close Combat. It doesn't want to switch into an Earthquake though.
    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 123-145 (34.3 - 40.5%) -- 51.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Earthquake vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 204-240 (56.9 - 67%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    112 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 356-420 (126.6 - 149.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Magneton with Eviolite can check variants that lack Earthquake:
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Magneton: 159-187 (65.9 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Analytic Magneton Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sharpedo: 440-518 (156.5 - 184.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Tangrowth can take a hit and KO back with Giga Drain or Leaf Storm.
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 141-166 (34.9 - 41.1%) -- 67.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 152-180 (37.7 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Tangrowth Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sharpedo: 252-296 (89.6 - 105.3%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    0 SpA Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sharpedo: 432-510 (153.7 - 181.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Druddigon can take a hit and KO back.
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Druddigon: 249-294 (70.3 - 83%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Druddigon Gunk Shot vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 305-360 (108.5 - 128.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Escavalier can take a hit and KO back.
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 219-258 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Escavalier Megahorn vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 590-696 (209.9 - 247.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Eelectross can take a hit and KO back.
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eelektross: 273-322 (72.9 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Eelektross Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sharpedo: 308-366 (109.6 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Or with prior damage, can get some nice recovery back:
    252+ SpA Eelektross Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sharpedo: 220-260 (78.2 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Poliwrath can take hits all day, and force Mega Sharpedo out while inflicting heavy damage with Circle Throw.
    252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 84-100 (21.8 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 152-180 (39.5 - 46.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Poliwrath Circle Throw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 168-198 (59.7 - 70.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    So, it looks like there are several defensive checks, but only 4 out of the 11 have reliable recovery. However, an important detail to note is that, unlike other offensive mega evolutions, Mega Sharpedo cannot afford to switch out once it mega evolves since it will lose its speed boosts. This combined with the fact that Sharpedo's Protects are sometimes pretty predictable and can allow a check to switch in safely makes it more difficult for Sharpedo to wear down the checks with no recovery. It should also be noted though that Mega Sharpedo can sometimes hax its way past its checks and counters with Waterfall flinches or Poison Fang + Protect shenanigans.

    Basically, to me it looks like offensive teams that lack or lose Mach Punch users are probably going to struggle against this thing. Balanced and defensive teams shouldn't have a problem with it if they can afford to devout a check or counter to it completely, but the problem with Pokemon like Porygon2, Aromatisse, and Hitmontop is that they often have to check other things and do other jobs which, at times, can leave them in a vulnerable position. It should also be noted that Mega Sharpedo can run Destiny Bond to get one extra KO before going down, but this option does hinder its coverage quite a bit.

    I think the question that needs to be answered is does Mega Sharpedo hinder offensive teams enough that it deserves to be banned? I think offensive teams that run a Mach Punch user along with something like Shaymin shouldn't have a problem, but if offense is basically forced to run these Pokemon because of Mega Sharpedo, then it looks to me like Mega Sharpedo is restricting team building there. I'm leaning toward the ban side for now, but I would like to see more discussion.
     
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  4. Twerk

    Twerk End Game Team

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    Finally a Mega Sharpedo suspect, been waiting for this one since February (sorry for being late with the post also)

    Well first off let's begin with his stats. As said before, 140/110 are very good stats, especially for LU. Also, with base 105 Speed and accessibility to Speed Boost before mega, virtually nothing outspeeds it. His defenses, 70 HP/70 Def/65 SpDef, are mediocre to say the least, meaning there's not much he's switching in on though (although that isn't what he's meant to do.)

    Now moving on to his offensive capabilities (sets, calcs, etc) The main set atm is Crunch, Protect, Waterfall, Posion Jab/Posion Fang/Ice Fang/Earthquake. This provides excellent coverage for him, giving him an advantage over most mons. Again, he outspeeds almost the whole tier, so most Hyper Offense teams have trouble with him unless they specifically have a check for him.

    Damage calcs
    Nidoqueen- 252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 342-404 (96.8 - 114.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Hitmonlee- 252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Hitmonlee: 250-295 (103.7 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Yanmega- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Yanmega: 278-328 (88.8 - 104.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Meloetta- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 560-662 (164.2 - 194.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Reuniclus- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 392-464 (92.4 - 109.4%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

    Cresselia- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 152+ Def Cresselia: 312-368 (70.2 - 82.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Kingdra- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 237-280 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Tornadus- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus: 306-360 (102.3 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Escavalier- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 174 HP / 0 Def Escavalier: 219-258 (67.5 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Vaporeon- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 200 HP / 252 Def Vaporeon: 246-289 (54.5 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    As you can see very little is switching in to this beast, forcing them to revenge kill

    Offensive checks
    SD Cobalion- 252 Atk Cobalion Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 408-480 (145.1 - 170.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (can take two Waterfalls from Sharpedo)

    Hitmonlee (can only revenge kill)- 252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 237-281 (84.3 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Hitmonchan- 252+ Atk Iron Fist Hitmonchan Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 200-236 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Defensive checks
    Hitmontop- -1 252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hitmontop: 76-90 (25 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

    SR Cobalion- 252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 123-145 (33.8 - 39.9%) -- 36.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Poliwrath- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Poliwrath: 84-100 (21.8 - 26%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Porygon2- 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 118-139 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    As you can see from the evidence provided, Mega Sharpedo is fast, powerful, and has very few checks in the current meta. He restrains teambuilding a lot, as teams are forced to run checks for him. Also, he runs through weakened teams incredibly easily, as well as offensive teams that lack Mach Punch. All of these outweigh his few weaknesses in the LU meta, which is why I vote ban.
     
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  5. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Figure I might as well chirp in on some things, that honestly, makes me wonder if any of you are actually attempting to play the tier, or are just wanting to rid it because of your short comings on teambuilding.

    A most common set can't run 3 auxiliary moves at the same time Carl. EQ isn't even on the most used sets, and it's honestly practically a waste of a space for most generalized conditions. EQ will allow you to hit: Klefki, Cobalion, and Registeel for steel types, and I guess a various difference of poison pokemon, but Crunch would already take care of them. I don't get what people would see in running the move, they'd have to switch on Klefki anyway losing your boosts regardless unless you'd wanna be Thunder-Waved, and against a defensive form of Registeel, switch or Thunder Wave as well.

    I...don't...even...ok I know how to respond, but that's the definition of a cleaner Pokemon. Come in when you remove threats to it, and finish the team off with overwhelming power, there's many pokemon capable of this in the LU tier, in a way very similar to Sharpedo too.

    Guaranteed kill if it's played right, against a defensive support mon like Aromatisse, it can Wish Protect to see what's gonna happen, which works around Destiny Bond, which you might give away since you literally have to play it at the right time, so MIND GAMES. A better option for this version would be against a bulky offensive type you know will attack, and you can't kill...something like Tangrowth or Tangela. You have a literal one shot at using Destiny Bond. They might lose a team support if done right, but you also lose a very big member to an offensive front, a pokemon capable of sweeping teams itself in a right situation, and not a disposable assist Pokemon like Froslass or any other ghost with the move.

    I've gone on record for this, but Mega Sharpedo, among several others, have almost no switch ins in LU right now, there's a small handful of things, but you've actually left a few additional choices out. First off, we'll throw out Poison Jab and Earthquake though, EQ isn't that much of a use on it, and leaves it vulnerable to many other threats, Poison Jab and Fang damages are roughly the same (Thanks Strong Jaw boost), but PF has a 50% poison rate...which for me has yet to actually kick in 50% of the time.

    That leaves us looking at possible sets that look like this:

    Mega Sharpedo
    252 Attack / 252 Speed / 4 (HP/Sp.Def) pick your poison usually there @ Adamant nature
    - Protect / Substitute
    - Crunch
    - Waterfall / Scald / Ice Fang / Poison Fang
    - Ice Fang / Poison Fang

    Mega Sharpedo really needs at least one of the fang moves for its sets, to at least be threatening to a certain side of Pokemon. The sad thing is that neither one will really net KOs unless the targets are weakened, or offensively weak. With that out of the way, let's actually take Mega Sharpedo from the top.

    Mega Sharpedo has amazing offenses, 140 base attack, 110 base special attack, and 105 base speed. Previous access to Speed Boost on it's normal form means that almost 100% of the time, it's gonna run Adamant, few Pokemon will outspeed 309 without a Choice Scarf, almost nothing would a 339 except a select few Pokemon. Adamant will almost always be preferred since you have the use of Speed Boost, or Sticky Web support possibilities, and losing out on the power gap can actually hinder Mega Sharpedo against key defensive wins it would have.

    It has immense power, let's get that out of the way. There's almost no guaranteed switch ins to an attack that it has when Mega'd. However, it actually has to get the Mega form up and running. It doesn't actually have the easiest job of this, when options are readily there though. First off, Sharpedo isn't switching into any conventional attack from almost any Pokemon in the tier. It can switch in on: Ghost, Dark, and Psychic moves, and not care at all. 70/40/40 defenses means if it tries to switch in, it's gonna be a goner or at least heavily (practically kill range) damaged. Upon mega evolution going to a 70/70/65 means it will be able to survive at least more of the weaker/moderate damage types with one more hit than it would with it's previous defenses. But, yeah its a cleaner/revenger itself. You don't switch it into an attack, you either do so by A) sacking something yourself, or B) using a slower U-Turner/Volt Switch user than your opponent or a fast one on a predicted switch in. Option B gets pretty situational, especially since any pokemon using U-Turn or VS are conventionally faster except very, very few options (the electric eel comes to mind).

    That kind of leads me to it's next downfall in a way, is it Protect or Substitute to gain boosts? Sharpedo's inherent nature is amazing for forcing switches, meaning that with the right set up, Substitute becomes a magnificent ally, especially because so little will outspeed a +1 Mega Sharpedo, you essentially can get 2 free hits against something that will live one Crunch/Waterfall, etc. It takes away the possibility of their check living and killing back if they are one of the reserve types that you keep the HP almost in full. Downside to this is, against bulky offensive or faster Pokemon, they might stay in to try and kill, which would obviously remove the sub, you lose 25% of health, if Rocks are up, you are down 37% of your health already, and aren't likely to live any hits coming your way, if you haven't mega'd, you can escape, try again, or mega, and see the damage you do, but if Crunch or your SE auxiliary move doesn't kill them, or they can send something to force you out anyway, you lose your boosts, and are in a precarious position.

    Same could be said for having to run Protect. 289 is marginally fast, compared to most of the speedsters you can use in the tier. 317 is better for being fast, and at a +1, there is little that will actually outspeed you, but you give up a turn as well to do so. Let's face it Mega Sharpedo ALMOST NEEDS a +1 at any given sweeping point. 309 is fast speed, but it's a speed that general Scarf users outspeed, and we have many other threats that outspeed it naturally and could KO. Lose that +1, Mega Sharpedo becomes less of a threat to offensive and balanced styles. Having to use Protect means having to Protect from an attack that turn or status if you need to Mega in order to beat the current threat. If you require that, and Mega, no speed boost for you, you are now susceptible to many threats that can KO you in the tier. Protect that turn, and your opponent can switch in a threat capable of forcing you out through various tactics, weather it might be because you don't KO, or they have intimidate as an ability, or have priority status or attacks. Sharpedo can still be scary, VERY VERY SCARY, but not unbeatable, unstoppable, or whatever. Would require help in boosting from outside baton pass sources, sticky web, or just has to go it alone, and work with what Gamefreak gave it. To make it work, and have the shark be at a disadvantage and still get the free boost, is to be able to kill with normal shark the threat in front before Mega evolving, or just going out and making the attempt to hurt the switch in to your favor, but if you are still forced to switch, at least you do damage and run for future boosting chances. Let's face it though, non LO normal Sharpedo can be a little disappointing with damages against some of the bulkier threats. Can backfire in multiple big ways still, but can be useful.

    Crunch, let's face it, Crunch wrecks stuff. I can give credit where it's due, the entirety of this suspect is probably just based alone on what Crunch can do to any team when you can't resist. Doesn't hurt that +1 speed against a team unprepared to force it out or kill it in a shot, means you have less of a chance to revenge it. Only other Dark, Fairy, and Fighting types resist, but only Fairy types have a strong presence to defend (switch in) against all its moves.

    Waterfall / Scald, eh, honestly mixed set is entirely disappointing. Can be good when you get burns on things that switch in, but you have to bank on a 30% happening. It's only good when paired with the sub set anyway as well. So, Waterfall then, amazing back up option for it Mega Sharpedo, hits them fire and ground types pretty well. Not as strong as Crunch in head to head on neutral targets, but it helps get the job done. It's just as much a guaranteed 2HKO on many neutral targets as Crunch is. Downside is that grass and other resisting types exist.

    Ice Fang / Poison Fang, kind of need one of these at least, otherwise Grass types like Whimsicott, Tangrowth, and Virizion pretty much wall Sharpedo to hell and back. With Ice Fang, you'd be able to hit some pokemon like Golbat, and guaranteed OHKOs on pokemon like Flygon and Noivern. As far as Poison Fang goes, you'll hit some grass types still, and be able to at least do a little bit of SE and attempt to Poison Fairy types. You basically use these for trying their extra effects, or helping out with some extra damage, though you might still be forced to switch, or take a heavy hit.

    So, getting to the nitty gritty of it, the question I'm going to ask, do people think it's broken because there are almost no switch ins, or because your teams aren't built to actually fight back? I don't know about most people, but there have been Pokemon across each tier, in most every generation starting with Gen 4 that don't have many switch ins, but at times might actually require you to sack a Pokemon in order to beat, through forcing them out or just plain out being stronger than it by being faster and stronger.

    Moral of my question, Mega Sharpedo will 2hko the tier, but are there enough things that live and fire back a KO or force it away while still usefully supporting a team?

    We've gotten a few offensive and defensive checks. Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan can pretty much gurantee a KO with Mach Punch with SR up. We have mostly poor spinners/defog users, it's easy to assume SR will be up on both sides in a battle that uses them. Lee only has a 1 in 4 chance of not killing, AssVest Chan Mach won't kill though, so something to keep in mind (honestly don't see much in that set for this LU cycle anyway). Cobalion scares it off, KOs with Close Combat, won't switch in to potential EQ's, but you'd pretty much want to switch in on a Protect turn against any other coverage set that it'd run (Free set up turn for you anyway because it'd switch). There is Poliwrath, there is Hitmontop who has Intimidate, there is Aromatisse, there is Porygon2.

    Of all the damage calculations @Twerk mentioned, I honestly have no idea why he added the obvious it will kill Psychic pokemon because their Physical defenses suck anyway and they don't prove much with Crunch calcs, but Yanmega can outspeed with Timid + Speed Boost, Cress can live a hit and support T-Wave it, Moonblast does a huge chunk too. Escavalier lives a hit, Megahorn can KO (shaky accuracy at times though). Kingdra is basically do you have a +1, can they get a +1, because both their respective hits to each other have a 62.5% of OHKO'ing after rocks. Special Dra would OHKO though. Tornadus loses to +1 M-Sharpedo, but wins vs no boost M-Sharpedo.

    @E.T. I'd say has the better handle with the return fire possible KO situation, though he forgets Magneton moved up to UU this cycle. Doublade, Eelectross, Tangrowth, TANGELA (probably better for tanking/special hitting than it's evolution at this point), and Druddigon can tank, return kill if their health is over 75-80% for most of them. Druddigon especially with Rough Skin means it'll at least do some resonance hits back to it especially if paired with Rocky Helmet. SR plays a big factor still, that might give Sharpedo the edge in most cases though.

    Adding into it stuff that people forgot:
    -1 252+ Atk Strong Jaw Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 132-156 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery.

    Qwilfish, lives a hit, has many supporting moves such as Thunder Wave, Destiny Bond, Pain Split, Spikes, Scald at it's disposal to continue to support a team. Successfully forces Sharpedo out, even EQ isn't a guaranteed 2hko (but a 70% one).

    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 128 Def Hariyama: 190-225 (44.2-52.4%) -- 19.9% chance to 2HKO after leftover recovery

    Hariyama is kind of an underrated Pokemon. Tanks hits, can fire hits back, doesn't always have to be the flame/toxic orb set. Anyone tries to actually bring up a Zen Headbutt option, don't, move is a waste of a resource on Sharpedo, won't even kill Hitmontop in 2 hits, nor effective when dealing Chan/Lee's way either. Kind of just threw what the standard EVs were for a set, honestly could just throw all that to HP since it's huge and would live hits with that, all into a defense, it's just to show it'd live.

    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Crunch vs 252 HP / 252 Def+ Eviolite Tangela: 100-118 (29.9 - 35.3%) -- Guaranteed 3HKO

    To see the defensive power, yeah Ice Fang does 3% more at max damage. Outside having AV or Lefties, does pretty much what Tangrowth does, 4 Sp.Att Giga drain will does 81% minimum to Mega Shark. So, yeah...option. Cool that it got regenerator too!

    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Waterfall vs 252 HP / 0 Def Pangoro: 186-220 (47.2-55.8%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO after rocks

    Won't switch in to a potential Waterfall, but tanks all moves, Drain Punch kills. Doesn't technically even need HP investment, it's just a good tanker. Since it's main move it Crunch though, it switches into that, and takes a measly 20% max.

    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Ice Fang vs 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 132-156 (42.1-49.8%) -- Guaranteed 2HKO after SR

    Another probably won't switch in except for Crunch situation. Provides awesome support for teams though, Defog, Thunder Waver, Wish/Aromatheropy stuff. Also its fairy move will rip a dent into M-Sharpedo, especially the ones that lack Ice Fang and can't return hurt it. Doesn't fit to most team archetypes, but honestly it fits into more of my teams that I'm surprised it's actually done such a good job at that.

    252+ Atk Mega Sharpedo Crunh vs 252 HP / 252 Def+ Eviolite Ferroseed: 117-138 (40-47.2%) -- 1.2 chance of 2HKO after SR

    I hate this thing, I don't think it's good, and it is a niche. But, it's a useful one, that supports teams with hazards in a bad hazard remove realm, and where RS is the best way to remove those, Iron Barbs can prevent it if they die on using it. Not a bad trade off, especially since it can Leech stall to keep it's HP up. I don't advocate use of it, but for some people and play styles, it has a use against Mega Sharpedo while supporting a team. Only pairing against with a Grass type or Magic Guard user would it not be able to do it's job vs a Sharpedo.

    There's also Mega Audino...but that thing lives everything almost, let's just put it this way, everything you do is a 4-5 HKO where only POISON FANG/JAB is a barely 3HKO. But, you use a mega spot to use it. Same thing applies to Granbull, but no mega spot, but also no good recovery. Gurdurr is in the same boat too, and has Mach, Drain Punch, and Bulk Up.

    That pretty much sums up what can tank a hit and fire back, which basically forces it out or die situations unless you get extremely good flinch rates. If it's not forced out, you do basically have to rely on +Speed base 95's to outspeed it with a Scarf, the only way it should ever be able to get a +2 is easy KO'ing current active Pokemon/Switch in + Protect, or getting a really, really lucky double Protect. When forced out, 309 becomes a speed that many clean up scarf users, and a lot of naturally fast pokemon can kill it from.

    I've used and fought against Mega Sharpedo many times, but honestly I've always felt underwhelmed no matter what. I've never swept a team with it before, except extremely late game where everything had under 50% HP, and I could have done that with almost any clean up Pokemon that had a strong offense. I've pretty much never been swept by Mega Sharpedo ever, occasionals at the start of LU made me underestimate it's power, but that was a long time ago (easily 6+ months), but I've always had a way to force it, or win against it. There have been times it could have lived up to its potential against me, but they never came to fruition, and was left a hypothetical on paper.

    Since I'm a nice guy, and @pokemonnerd had to delete this or be infracted, he decided his fate, I'll share story about my use of Mega Sharpedo:

    Obviously, last line is stupid, and never allowed. But, yeah I subbed Sharpedo, scared his team a bit, and only got 1 KO because he broke my sub, and Mega Sharpedo failed to kill an Escavalier which I needed to kill otherwise Sharpedo would have been useless after that. I needed the highest roll possible, failed, got nailed with a UNICORN LANCE OF ANGELIC JUSTICE. If I wasn't sub, and Protect Shapedo, same thing would have still happened, just I would have killed a different pokemon than the one I did, and then Esca kills or Sharpedo becomes useless. I won't lie, only reason I won this match vs him...was he feared a move my other pokemon didn't have that would have done damage to probably help him win vs me. I outplayed him with that, but only real reason there. Sharpedo, pretty much useless that match, and it's almost done nothing in the rest of my match ups.

    From my eyes, I've only ever seen Mega Sharpedo do stuff extremely late game as A CLEANER pokemon. It's not gonna be doing anything early game, it might be able to do some stuff mid game, but it if megas and gets forced out, against a balanced or offensive based team, you will be in trouble, as it loses effectiveness at its job. It performs the Cleaner type job extremely well, like many other Cleaner pokemon before it, it's probably the best cleaner pokemon in LU because of the lack of resistances or immunity to its attacks. That's kind of where it is at though, since it really needs the +1 speed, and there are checks and counters to the variety of does it run Ice Fang or Poison Fang question.

    Personally, I'm still kind of unsure if that really is broken or not. It's not a thing that can capably tank through 2 or 3 Pokemon and kill them all. It's not capable of staying in and continuing a sweep thanks to certain Pokemon and abilities. It becomes highly susceptible to faster threats if it's not a +1 speed against offensive and balanced teams. It can 2hko about 90% of the metagame, which means a cleaner of almost everything extremely late game against WEAKENED foes. I can see it, but I've never actually experienced any of these claims actually happen to me once in the present.
     
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  6. E.T.

    E.T. SSSSSSSSSSSSS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Late game cleaner is an accurate way to describe how Mega Sharpedo should be used most of the time. Since it does lose its speed boosts if it is forced out, it should focus on weakening things and running away instead of Mega evolving as soon as it gets a boost until it is ready to clean/sweep. Yes, there are many defensive checks, and Pokemon like Aromatisse and Porygon2 usually stop it cold as long as they stay relatively healthy and don't get flinch haxed. However, many of the defensive checks that lack recovery have to stay healthy until Sharpedo Mega Evolves, which means they can't always afford to switch in when Sharpedo enters the field, and sacking something to safely bring in your check won't stop it from coming back and trying to setup later if it hasn't Mega Evolved already. Overall, due to the number of defensive checks/counters it has, in regards to teams that can afford to carry these defensive checks, I don't think Mega Sharpedo is broken.

    Where I think Mega Sharpedo becomes broken is against offensive teams that don't want to include a slow bulky momentum-killing Pokemon. To stop Mega Sharpedo, offensive is mostly limited to Mach Punch, or Pokemon like Whimsicott (can para) or Shaymin (can revenge kill). Even with these, Mach Punch has a chance of not KOing without prior damage, which means you lose if this is your only way to stop it and it survives, and the accuracy of Stun Spore/Seed Flare can cause you to lose too. Trying to revenge kill Sharpedo with a scarfer or shell smash Cloyster might work if it's only at +1, but it isn't very hard for Sharpedo to get to +2 by forcing a switch or finishing something slower before using Protect. I think Mega Sharpedo puts a restriction on team building for offensive teams, and teams like this that don't have or lose Mach Punch users, Whimsi, Shaymin, etc. are the main ones that actually get swept by Mega Sharpedo.
     
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  7. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Most of what I wanted to say has been mentioned in this thread already, so I'll try to not elaborate on those.

    Having used Mega Pedro a lot in UU and LU, I can say from experience that it's just too good to be in LU. Strong Jaw boosted Crunch coming from a base 140 attack stat is scary, but coupled with base 105 speed and further boosted by Speed Boost in it's base form, Mega Sharpedo is an extremely threatening late-game sweeper. 70/70/65 defenses ain't too shabby either; that +30 defense boost from it's regular form actually goes a long way to aid in it's survival, and the fact that it doesn't take LO damage every turn it attacks, it's quite hard to revenge kill it once it has a couple of Speed Boosts under it's belt.

    Mega Sharpedo does have it's limitations, I'm not denying that. It's still pretty frail, can't afford to switch out once it's mega'd as it loses all the speed boosts, and has a few checks as well. But you'll rarely see one of them in an offensive team; and that's the part where Mega Sharpedo shines, it steamrolls through offensive teams with extreme ease. Even against Balanced teams have trouble dealing with it, as very few mons can actually tank a Strong Jaw boosted Crunch and live to take another hit. The amount of pressure Mega Sharpedo puts on teams late-game is pretty much unmatched. I'm not gonna go into calcs here as they have been mentioned in the above posts, but this monster is extremely centralising and limits teambuilding.

    Also while mentioning checks, why are we assuming everything is at full health? Mega Sharpedo is supposed to work as a late-game cleaner, in which case the opposing mons are supposed to have taken damage(that's not the case all the time, but mostly it is). Shaymin can hardly be considered a check, and standard LO variant takes like 75% from Crunch/Ice fang. Hitmontop gets bopped by the rare Scald/Hydropump, Porygon2 is there but that's not hard to wear down.

    So basically offense has only Mach Punch to rely on for revenge killing Mega Sharpedo, and even LO Mach Punch from Hitmonlee/Hitmonchan fails to OHKO Mega Sharpedo. So if Mega Sharpedo is at full health, chances are it will live that Mach Punch and proceed to steamroll through opp's team. So are we gonna limit a playstyle by allowing this monster to stay in LU? I don't see how that's a good idea.

    Long story short; even with it's shortcomings, what Mega Sharpedo brings to the table in terms of sheer offence makes it too much for LU, and it limits teambuilding severely. So it'd be better if this leaves.
     
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  8. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    So, Mega Sharpedo. Everyone has pretty much said everything you can about its good and bad points, so I'm going to be slightly brief: it definitely deserves a ban. Not really because of the fact that it's such an amazing late game cleaner, but in general how easy it is to secure a win condition with it. Yes, Porygon2, Registeel(needs some defense EVs since it will be worn down), Granbull(lol), Aromatisse(lesser than Granbull but...), and Klefki can easily stop it, but besides Klefki none of them really mesh that well with an offensive team without giving up heavy momentum. Even bulky pokemon like Escavalier are not at all guaranteed to be healthy enough to pull off killing it, as they are very easily worn down checking their respective physical or special attackers, and unless you have a hard resist to Dark like Intimidate Hitmontop or are very heavy on priority, you're going to be extremely pressed by sharpedo's mere presence during the match. Even things like Virizion seem like good checks, but then if you actually can't force Sharpedo out after it evolves, they're basically worthless. And I don't think scarf viri would function well right now anyway.

    And even if Sharpedo causes a switch you have to remember: if it does carry scald, that's a free turn to go for a burn. Poison Fang? That's a 50% chance to get a Toxic off on a non-steel target. Status means a hell of a lot more than people give it credit for. And then, after you get that counter in or check that can make it switch, it's still in base form ready to attempt a sweep. This is going into prediction, but it's still important because the threat of losing something to Sharpedo in the middle of the game can outweigh the chance to gimp it if it tries to do these things. You still have 5 other pokemon you need to deal with after all, and some non-broken pokes in this tier are very potent.

    By the way, talking about status, Sharpedo can also simply Sub up on pokemon like Vaporeon and Cresselia lacking Moonblast rather easily, invalidating the use of status against it and possibly letting it win against Mach Punch Hitmonlee and similar pokemon.

    TL:DR The threat of one turn becoming a sweep is very tangible and easy to fall into unless you're dominating your opponent, Sharpedo's hard counters are easily dealt with and the ease at which Mega Sharpedo reaches its win condition is too much for the tier in my opinion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2015
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  9. ZoroDark

    ZoroDark i know everything

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    i think aurist wants me to post here

    But yeah I agree that Mega Sharpedo should be banned from LU. It is by far the best sweeper/cleaner in the entire tier thanks to how ridiculously easy it is to make it your win condition. Its speed and typing ensure that Mega Sharpedo cannot be revenge killed outside of strong Mach Punch users (so, like literally only Hitmonlee). This takes away offense's primary way of dealing with opposing threats, so they're forced to slap on at least 1 bulky mon to deal with Mega Sharpedo. This isn't necessarily bad or indicative of Sharpedo's brokenness, but the problem lies in the fact that those bulky mons that can consistently deal with Mega Sharpedo are too few and far between for Sharpedo to remain in LU (and then I'm not even talking about how badly they fit into standard offensive teams).

    There's distinctions between the various bulky mons that are used to prevent Sharpedo from sweeping. You have typical bulky offensive mons like Shaymin and Escavalier, who risk getting OHKO'd after SR and Spikes. Then there's bulkier mons like Aromatisse and Whimsicott that only fear Poison Fang. And finally there's also the list of counters which includes Registeel, Porygon2 and Hitmontop. All 3 of those have to really watch out they don't get worn down (Hitmontop less so, but still) or Crunch will mercilessly 2HKO them. Registeel and Porygon2 also have to rely on status to stop Sharpedo which means Substitute variants can really give them a headache. The reason I listed them like this is because there's a common denominator: the sheer presence of Mega Sharpedo on the opponent's team puts tremendous pressure on each and every one of those mons, which gives the Mega Sharpedo user an advantage even when it isn't even on the field. That's why I think Mega Sharpedo is broken in LU and why it should be banned from the tier.
     
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  10. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Not to rush or anything and I know the leaders are torn on this(or at least one is), but can we get a verdict soon? Cress is annoying and Reuniclus deserved a suspect a while ago, and it would be nice to see whether the one pokemon that affects them the most is going to leave.
     
  11. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    OK so discussion died a while ago, I was waiting to hear from my other leader but didn't so it's about time to make an executive decision. The opinion on Mega Sharpedo is overwhelmingly pro-ban, so Sharpedonite is going to be banned from the ORAS LU tier. Thank you all for taking part and there's a couple more suspects on the way shortly.
     
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