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Suspect Discussion: Crawdaunt Revisited (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by Just Do It, Apr 2, 2015.

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  1. Just Do It

    Just Do It No one cares

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    [​IMG]
    Thanks again @da raikage


    After popular demand and an untimely vote for Crawdaunt, which was put in the beginning of June & since ORAS UU caused some significant changes in the metagame, it has been decided that Crawdaunt will be suspected again.
    As such,
    Discuss the possibility of Crawdaunt being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Crawdaunt's effect on the metagame. Talk about different sets it can use, possible partners and team support, and potential checks and counters. State your opinion on whether Crawdaunt should be banned or if it should stay in the ORAS UU tier.

    All opinions are valid and discussion amongst players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or having playing against Crawdaunt in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.​


    [​IMG]
     
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  2. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Oml all these suspects, we’re being spoiled :]

    Crawdaunt’s a pretty straight forward pokemon. It’s not that versatile (most sets include Aqua jet, crabhammer/waterfall, knock off and sd (or dd but I think that’s not as good) or superpower, depending on the set). Common items would be choice band, Life orb or focus sash (LO and sash use the same sets and work in a pretty similar way). Crawdaunt’s attack is pretty damn high, and coupled with adaptability, makes his stab moves pretty freaking powerful. The real problem comes from said stab moves ; knock off is 1 of those moves that is stupidly easy to spam, and even if it doesn’t deal good damage (VERY unlikely), you still get to cripple the opposing mon by removing its item (unless it’s a mega, but few megas can reliably switch into crawdaunt). Before any1 mentions it, standard mega toise is not a reliable switch in at all ;

    -252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off vs. 184 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 164-195 (47.5 - 56.5%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO.

    Speaking of switch ins, these are scarce. Hard counters would probably be poliwrath (probably the best counter) chesnaught (poor recovery, lack of lefties really shortens its life-span), Tangrowth, defensive salamence (you can still lose to LO sd) and Hydreigon with a fat spread and roost (not an optimal set and you will cry if it catches you with superpower on the switch). That’s pretty much all you have in the uu tier, and none of them will enjoy losing their item. Suicune is 2HKOed by banded knock off after rocks, and is setup fodder for the sd set (u have to burn it otherwise you lose). Alomomola is in the same boat, but it does have good recovery (complete setup bait though). Mega Aggron can take some hits and cripple it with t-wave, but lack of recovery makes it, once again, an unreliable check. This makes crawdaunt hell to face for any stall team, and probably even worse for balance because chances are you won’t have any dedicated crawdaunt counter.

    Offense has it even worse when it comes to finding switch ins, because offensive checks are very rare. Toxicroak is 2hkod by knock off, and so is blastoise. Whimsicott resists everything and forces you are, but its bulk is not very impressive and losing lefties really isn't helping. Most mons that could potentially “take a hit” on offense have no recovery, so you literally cannot allow crawdaunt to get off any hit at all. Sure, a lot of stuff can revenge it because crawdaunt is slow, but crawdaunt also has access to the most powerful priority move in the tier, meaning your revenge killer will either need to resist water, or be moderately healthy to revenge crawdaunt, which is why HO teams can still have trouble dealing with the crab, but it’s probably the 1 playstyle that deals with it the best.

    Anti-ban arguments would probably be stuff like “can’t come in easily” and “2 slow”. I think the first one is fairly weak, as most offensive behemoths cannot come in easily anyway. The second one is crawdaunt’s main drawback: it rly isn’t fast. His powerful priority does help to alleviate the problem though, and not everything on HO can simply OHKO crawdaunt. AJ also forces a lot of mindgames, in which crawdaunt can take advantage of the switch it forces and use his stupidly strong knock off. I know this is prediction based, but in practice, it’s not that hard to pull off and crawdaunt ends up using knock off a fairly good amount of times in most games. While revenge killers and checks may be present in the tier, the amount of counters is pretty damn low (and crawdaunt can still cripple said counters for the rest of the match) which leads me to think that crawdaunt puts an enormous strain on teambuilding, and that this pressure is unhealthy for the tier.

    Ban pls.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
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  3. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Before I start, let me tell you the garbage anti-ban arguments that are going to be presented that caused Crawdaunt to stay last time it got suspected because the TLs were quality.
    First one, "it's slow d00d". First of all, you might not realize how fucking good Adaptability Aqua Jet is.
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 192-228 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 328-388 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 206-244 (76 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Honchkrow: 228-270 (66.8 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pidgeot: 164-194 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 272-324 (79.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    This is extremely useful vs offense and balance, it doesn't need AJ vs stall because it's probably going to be faster than the large majority of the stall mons on your team so it can just spam STABs.

    And the second one is "it has troubl3 com1ng 1n d00d". This literally applies to just about every offensive mon in the game. In a tier submerged in a pool of HO, every offensive mon is going to have trouble coming in.
    K now the reason why it's cancer.

    I'll start off with counters/checks. They are borderline non-existent. Checks for offense basically boil down to Hydreigon and Mega Blastoise. Neither of these can switch in more than once to Banded. Unless they kill Crawdaunt when they come in it's taking your check out the next time it comes in, then you start sacking once your check is gone. If it's Sash SD, a +2 Knock Off followed with Aqua Jet (after they bring it down to its Sash) kills both of them. Then you're left with a 1HP Crawdaunt that can be preserved for its powerful Aqua Jet or free STAB vs anything slower. Side-note, Florges is a very common partner for Crawdaunt because it shits on both of its only checks meaning Banded can freely switch out after it deals like 60% to Hydra or Blast.
    Now its counters. Poliwrath is complete garbage in this meta so I don't think it should even be mentioned (the current stats don't even have Poliwrath listed because literally no one has used it yet..Simisage has more usage lel). The next 2 that are basically your only 2 are Chesnaught and Mence. Chesnaught is a good answer and imo the only (or main) reason it's used is to beat Crawdaunt, but it has 0 recovery barring Lefties and the never-used Synthesis. Having its Lefties knocked off dramatically reduces its survivability. Mence is a pretty shaky answer imo, mainly due to it being weak to Rocks. If Rocks are up it has a decent chance to get OHKOed.
    +1 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 274-324 (69.5 - 82.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    So what are we left with. Chesnaught.

    There isn't a mon in ORAS UU right now (barring MegaZam) that more encourages HO spam imo because of its complete lack of decent counters. The strain on building is absurd, and really just cancerous..there's no other way to put it. This time let's just get it the fuck out of here. Ban pls.
     
  4. bugzinator

    bugzinator Well-Known Member

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    Glad to see this being re suspected, gonna make a similar post to the last time this was suspected.

    First of all I think crawdaunt gets two good sets CB and Sash SD which are both discussion worthy, mainly gonna be focusing on the CB set here though to highlight how hard it is to switch in to.

    Here's the list of safe switches
    Chesnaught - Can switch into any attacks fairly well and threaten out with stabs, solid counter.
    Poliwrath - Same as above, but do people even use this? lol
    Salamence - Physically defensive switches in with intimidate and forces out, another good counter.
    Whimsicott - Can switch into band set a couple of times, but loses lefties and has no recovery outside of leech seed. Decent check.
    Mega Blastoise - Physically defensive switches into AJ & Crabhammer, avoids 2hko from Knock Off, doesn't lose item and forces out. Okayish check.
    Also like to point out that these pokemon still lose their leftovers by switching into knock off making it harder for them to do their job through-out the battle.

    Run through of some other general match ups throughout the tier
    Hydregion - Can switch into 3/4 attacks on band set and all sets without superpower, does force crawdaunt out and can often heal up damage with roost.
    Toxicroak - Gets to switch into knock off once while forcing out, does stop crawdaunt from spamming water stabs too.
    Florges - Even physical defensive florges comes close to being fully ohkod and florges is slower, moonblast doesn't let crawdaunt switch in at least.
    Victini - Ohkod by band aj after rocks and can never come in on Crawdaunt.
    Chandelure - Same as above.
    Weavile - Ohkod by aj after sr and one lo round, Crawdaunt doesn't mind switching into ice attacks.
    Staraptor - Needs quite a bit of prior damage to be kod by aj but cant switch in and all it can do is force crawdaunt out while trying to scout with u-turn.
    Umbreon - slower and ohkod by superpower, comes close with crabhammer.
    Mega Manectric - Does ok, outspeeds and forces out while not taking too much from aj thanks to intimidate, really doesn't enjoy switching into anything else however.
    Crobat - Cant switch in and only manages a 2hko with bb, while being 2hkod by aj.
    Arcanine - Even defensive variants cant switch in to crabhammer and offensive ones die to aj after sr.
    Forretress - 2hkod and outsped, cant do too much back either!
    Roserade - Outspeeds and forces out while resisting aj, can never switch in to anything else however
    Swampert - Slower and 2hkod, cant normally do a ton back to crawdaunt
    Empoleon - Same as above
    Suicune - Needs to run max defense to avoid 2hkod by knock off, sleep talk isnt too reliable and even then all it can do is try to burn with scald, offensive cm variants can outspeed and 2hko but are 2hkod back.
    Darmanitan - Dies to aj.
    Alakazam - Ohkod by band aj, mega dies to aj after sr, crawdaunt can get in on stab or shadow.
    Mega Aggron - Slower and 2hkod by band crabhammer, can switch in to it's other attacks decently but doesnt do much back except t-wave.
    Honchkrow - Can't switch in and dies to band aj with some prior damage.
    Heracross - Can't switch in and 2hkod by band aj.
    Mienshao - Same as above.
    Nidoking - Outspeeds but dies to aj, never switches in.
    Rhyperior - Crawdaunt is faster and kos.
    Lucario - Is never switching in, outspeeds but dies to aj with drops or prior damage.
    Jirachi - Can't switch in to knock off.
    Togekiss - Physically defensve checks sash set decently with flinch strats but can't switch into band crabhammer with rocks.
    Beedrill - Switches in to nothing, outspeeds but fully ohkod by band aj.
    Pidgeot - Can't switch in, 2hkod by band aj.
    Donphan - Is slower and dies.
    Raikou - Can't switch in, forces crawdaunt out while being 2hkod by band aj.
    Entei - Can't switch in, dies to aj with rocks.
    Mega Aerodactyl - Never switches in, dies to band aj.
    Rotom-H - Can't switch in, dies to aj unless defensive.
    Machamp - Can't switch into Crabhammer and is slower.
    Espeon - Can never switch in, 2hkod by aj.
    Feraligatr - Dies to Knock off, can't do much back unless superpower variant.
    Snorlax - Is slower and takes 80+% while failing to ko back.
    Tentacruel - Dies to knock off, can't do much back except fish for burn.
    Mega Sceptile - Is faster and resists aj, can't switch in to knock off however.
    Gligar - Is slower and dies.
    Can't be bothered going through the tier much longer but you get the general picture!

    I think this run-through shows us that crawdaunt only has 5 (4 viable?) safe switch-ins which you have to be using other wise it's "guess incorrectly and lose something" ridiculously low risk high reward for the crawdaunt user. Some defensively oriented and balanced teams can have a really difficult time against 252 speed crawdaunt as it's faster than most walls while being able to ohko or 2hko them. Offense does have a slightly easier time (despite lacking switches) against cb crawdaunt as there are a large amount of pokemon which are faster and ohko, however crawdaunt gets access to an adaptability priority move which is capable of ohkoing or 2hkoing a lot of these threats as shown above making it a lot more difficult to handle.

    Also want to touch on the common argument against these kind of pokemon in uu (see zam suspect) which is how they can be revenge killed fairly easily and don't switch in on much; I think most people who use things like crawdaunt and zam are likely to be running some kind of u-turn or volt switch support to help it get in and out of the battle, not just throwing it in and hoping to live attacks while sticking around to be revenge killed if it does manage to kill something, those kind of arguments can only go so far.

    None of this even accounts for the sash sd set which is a lot more threatening vs offensive teams and even stops things like mence just coming in and walling with intimidate, really don't see any other pokemon in the tier (Barring mega zam) with such a limited pool of of switches, only real support you need is helping it get into play and with all this considered I think crawdaunt should be banned.

    also that crawdaunt artwork is stunning
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2015
  5. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    thanks to the posts above, it is clear Crawdaunt doesn't really have switch-ins. Well, the thing is terribly slow. Even 252 speed Craw hits 209 speed, which is good to outspeed defensive mons (Florges!) but nothing more, really. ThatMushroom says Adaptability AJ is good - and, surprise, it is. Its not that insane though, and even if the calcs with a CB are impressive, you will not enjoy being locked into a move that can't even OHKO frail stuff like Weavile or SE hits like Victini. And assuming you even get it in (VoltTurn, okay, okay) any decent offensive mon will force it right back out if it's not terriweak to AJ (hello Chandy). So, what Crawdaunt essentially comes down to is very heavily prediction-reliant...or just the mindless clicking of Knock Off.

    Sash SD is good, assuming you are even able to keep the sash intact, because this terribly frail mon will need it to set up. Even if you do, any kind of priority kills it. What does AJ help you if you are so slow then? The band set is lots better because it needs no setup turn and thus doesn't care if it's forced out.
    For Chesnaught, it is sometimes fun to run an Aerial Ace set with CB:

    252+ Atk Choice Band Crawdaunt Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 256-304 (67.3 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Well, that trick doesn't work more than once though, and Choice mons tend to become predictable or are very prediction-reliant in what move to use, we all know that.

    The two main arguments against a ban have already been mentioned. The thing probably is a combination of the two: While offensive behemoths do have problems switching in, faster mons can compensate for that in outspeeding if they have taken a 2KO-ing move on the switch. Crawdaunt does NOT. It is too slow to do so. And that is, in my opinion, what separates Crawdaunt from Mons like Mega Alakazam and Terrakion. Albeit being quite powerful, they had the speed to be faster than most of the tier. Crawdaunt is really lacking in that sense, and in combination with its poor bulk, it leaves Crawdaunt as a very powerful Wallbreaker. Not more. I wouldn't say it puts an enormous strain on teambuilding, as there really aren't any decent switch-ins anyway. It's rather the question if a player can keep Crawdaunt from coming in and how he handles it if it is in. Also, the argument of "yea it has good prio so the speed doesn't matter" is p bad if we assume its best set has a goddamn choice item...imho this thing might be too good for the current meta, if i go by my own experience though it is simply too slow, frail and also not used enough to be banworthy.
     
  6. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why you would compare crawdaunt to alakazam/terrakion ; they have very different roles. The former is a wallbreaker: it's not going to sweep teams, but it'll murder almost anything that's going to switch-in. Crawdaunt's role is not the pick off weakened threats (even though it can thanks to AJ); it breaks shit, like no other mon in the meta atm. The 2 latter probably fit in the sweeper category, as they are fast AND powerful, which allows them to destroy previously weakened teams.

    Crawdaunt having issues against faster threats has already been mentionned, which is why the above posters also said that HO can deal with crawdaunt the best. However, more defensively oriented teams have no (or very few) mons that can outspeed and easily revenge kill the crab, and so it dismantles stall teams often by itself unless they are running a very specific counter (why did you mention post aerial ace, no1 said chesnaught wasnt a counter). Notice how chesnaught has poor recovery when it loses lefties though.

    So u just sac stuff and hope for the best?

    Of course handling crawdaunt when its in (or keeping it from coming in) is important, but that's why voltturn exists. And when it comes to handling it, most ho teams will just sac a mon to force it out, whereas stall teams can just click x in a lot of cases.

    Usage has nothing to do with a mon's brokenness.
     
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  7. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    eiffel tower pt 2

    So I said from the start that I think Sash SD is its best set because it does the best vs all playstyles, and since your posts are 100% of the time with the mindset of HO with no consideration for other playstyles, I'll be using that set in this response. Keeping Sash is not a hard task, we have fairly good defoggers and a spinner (MBlast) that shits on every spinblocker in the tier. Since I'm using the Sash set, I'll just calc +2 AJ vs common HO mons.

    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 360-428 (105.5 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mamoswine: 436-516 (121.4 - 143.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 340-400 (135.4 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 416-492 (138.2 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Staraptor: 242-286 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Nidoking: 448-528 (147.8 - 174.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Absol: 274-324 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mienshao: 274-324 (101.1 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Do you see the problem? Crawdaunt isn't heavily prediction reliant, that couldn't be farther from the truth. Vs balance and stall, you just click one of your STABs. Vs HO, Sash ensures you can click a STAB and follow it up with Jet which is almost always a guaranteed kill, or if it's late game and you can win with +2 Jet which is very likely, just click SD. And at that point you're left with a 1% Crawdaunt which you can either sack or preserve for AJ.

    Aerial Ace is fine on Band, it doesn't have 4mss so you can throw anything into your 4th slot. All it needs is Knock Off, Water STAB and AJ. The rest is just overkill. AA isn't even required to beat Chesnaught though because once you Knock Off its Lefties, its end is inevitable due to lack of recovery.

    If you want to see why this argument is horrendous, name me any HO mon and I'll tell you like 10+ things that OHKO it on the switch-in.

    Don't compare two completely different mons pls.

    You see this? This is why. You haven't even attempted making a balance/stall team in your life have you? "There aren't any decent switch-ins anyway" oh that's just dandy let me just sack everything on my fucking team. That may work for HO, but balance and stall doesn't have a chance because of how intertwined the team structure of those playstyles are. And this is why I said HO is being spammed right now like no other tier, to go back to an older quote, "fuck spending time trying to build a team to beat all these 1-2 counter mons like MZam and Daunt, I'll just throw threats together in 5 seconds". You really need to play other playstyles to realize how fucking cancerous Crawdaunt is. I'll leave it at that.

    Again, ban ples.
     
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  8. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Daunt has been UU for a long-ass time, and I'm fairly convinced it's been unhealthy the whole time, its STABs give it surprisingly excellent coverage against basically everything short of Toxicroak, Chesnaught and shit with no defense like Sharpedo. Its low speed does leave it falling short against offense some of the time but even then SD Life Orb sets run Aqua Jet and it minces many offensive threats with ease, short of fast things that resist it like Hydreigon, Mence, Sceptile or a really fast Blastoise but all of these things are dealt a really heavy blow by Knock Off so they can't switch in easily at all. (Except for Defmence because Defmence eats unboosted Knock Offs 3 meals a day, but then it can't really straight up kill Daunt it has to Dtail it or Toxic, but that's not too short of a death sentence for a mon like that, not to say offense should be running Defmence but it's a worthy note I guess?).

    As for defensive checks. Well Knock Off makes many defensive checks think once twice and three times, but still I would say the best is probably Chesnaght, which is a great Pokémon in general. It resists dual stabs and easily sends it packing with Drain Punch. Pretty good counter (unless AAce but then it's missing an important move unless it's banded then it needs to predict and then is forced out afterwards). The next things that come to mind are bulky-ass megas. Namely Maggron and M-Stoise. Both can eat a couple attacks just fine but both lack any recovery and still take reasonable damage from Knock Off (Mega Stoise) or Crabhammer (Aggron).

    In general I'd say Crawdaunt isn't completely without checks or whatever but I'd definitely say its checks are extremely limited and not too difficult to circumvent. Its prowess against fat balance and stall is more than apparent and it's hardly incapable vs offense either. It's just too strong imo.
     
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  9. Just Do It

    Just Do It No one cares

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    Since there hasn't been any posts lately & also keeping POWC in mind, this suspect discussion has reached to an end.

    Crawdaunt has proved (long enough) that he's been too much for this tier. He has excellent coverage in both Water/Dark and a nice prior move in Aqua Jet which makes up for his low speed. The ability to get ride of opponents Item and also hitting hard with 120 Atk+Adaptability is ridiculous, which has been shown above that they're less then a handful checks that could come in safely. Main sets are Choice Band/Sash SD/Life Orb SD which gives him the ability to spam CB Knock Off/Crabhammer or get a SD and finish of weaker mons depending on the opposites team. While it's true that he can't come in safe on most cases, there are other options for him to come in nicely like VoltTurn. Him being in this tier means that he restricts teambuilding which basicly shows us that he's unhealthy for the UU meta.

    As of now, Crawdaunt will be banned from the ORAS UU tier. Thanks for participating!
     
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