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Hackmons Tier

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Crystal Moogle, Apr 7, 2015.

  1. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Well I find the trick is not to let them boost to +6 on every stat in the first place. Besides, even if that did happen you could still use Pokémon like Unaware Giratina, Fur Coat Chansey with Topsy Turvy (or Haze if you're worried about Magic Bounce). Impostor Chansey is completely overcentralising.
     
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  2. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    I SCREWED THAT UP PLEASE IGNORE K THANKS.

    Personally, Ive stopped running boosting sweepers outside of one Smashpass pokemon. Imposter shouldn't be THAT hard to deal with. Any special attacker that doesn't need a different item for their set should be running Judgement w/ a plate (or HYPERSPACE FURRRRRY!) as it is, with the possible exception of MewY. Also, Dont boost to +6 if Chansey is still alive?

    Well then... There are plenty of things to boost on and plenty of anti-boost Pokemon in this tier. It is a delicate balance of threats, counters, and counter-counters. The problem with PO suspects is that they look at what counters the OP Pokemon in question, but not what the OP Pokemon checks (The OU Greninja ban left Megagross with no counters, the Megagross ban left Landorus with no counters). I dont think anything should be suspected in hackmons or BH, as much as I hate Impostor. Dont pull the "overcentralising" argument either. I dont run a direct Impostor counter, but I DO run multiple direct Shedinja counters, is that overcentralizing? the meta is as good a balance as it will be atm. If it ain't broke, dont fix it.
     
  3. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    The only real "broken" thing at the moment is really Contrary spamming teams since any team finding themselves short of 2 Unaware mons, tons of fucking Haze(or both) or Shedinja is going to lose most of the time. Even then contrary mons are met with either Unaware Giratina or Unaware/Fur Coat/Imposter Chansey to the face. If you have a mon who can be imposter'd easily(ie not judgment Gengar) then you should be carrying unaware or something that can beat it.

    I mean baton pass Groudon kind of is a thing but then you should be packing Prankster Haze anyway if you don't have an all-around unaware mon.
     
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  4. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    To respond directly to your post, I personally run 1 Impostor and 0 Unaware on my team, and have no problem dealing with Contrary. Shedinja is also a very viable check to Contrary spam, as these pokemon generally need all 4 moveslots for attacks. Thanks for reminding me of my big points.

    Everyone thinks different things are broken because everyone has different teams.
    Removal of something inevitably removes all counters from something else.


    If I run 4 setup sweepers, Ill think Impostor is broken. If I run nothing to deal with boosters, Ill think Contrary is broken. If I run no Shedinja counter, Ill think Shed is broken. If I run no Magic Bounce, ill think Prankster is broken. It is impossible to cover all threats at once, but also impossible to run all threats at once. Everything in BH right now has a hard counter, but you can't run counters to everything. The best teams have balanced answers to the most threats. At least two of the top 10 on the ladder run Spiky Shield on 4 or more pokemon, meaning there is nothing my Shedinja can do to their teams, making the entire battle 5v6.
     
  5. Baron Corm

    Baron Corm New Member

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    Boosters are beaten by Imposter Blissey and -aters that carry wicked priority moves. Also Sturdy or Focus Sash users combined with proper use of Magic bounce/Defog if needed.

    Various people have said that various of these things should be banned. Why don't we just take down the tier if you do that? There is a nice sort of "balance" going on which will kill the tier completely if you start meddling with it.

    @inigomontoya - Run Shadow Force to defeat Spiky Shield on your Shedinja.
     
  6. [TA]Power of Dark

    [TA]Power of Dark New Member

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    [MEGA] Fixed
    anyone give me a hackmon team??
     
  7. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    Yveltal / ddrox13
    I run Shadow Sneak (or Extremespeed)/Endeavor/Shell Smash/Baton Pass. Priority is sooo important to this set.
    Thank you for proving that SOMEONE agrees with me.

    Check the RMT section very soon. Ill probably be posting a BH Steal-My-Team shortly, if noone else does it before me. Or just click this link http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/into-the-fray-a-bh-rmt-peaked-4-1319.30872/
     
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2015
  8. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    Balanced Hackmons is one of my favorite tiers ever.
    Hackmons not so much.

    M-Ray, P-Groudon, P-Kyogre and Chansey are the central core of BH. They have great power, synergy and versitality.
    The remaining two slots are just filter.
    Speaking as 1 on the ladder, i see anyone not using all 4 of them at a handicap in terms of winning.

    However Im using 6 different pokes, 6 different abilities with 22 different moves and 5 different items on my team.
    So its save to say the tier is Balanced.
     
  9. Nightfall Alicorn

    Nightfall Alicorn Left Pokémon Online, most likely not coming back.

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    Preferably, I tend to like Classic Hackmons, mostly due Balanced is just looking for a openning then stat boosting and bombing opponents with them 1 hit ko-s. Having at least 2 Wonder Guards reduces the bombing more and gives players some focus to use status moves (burn, paralyse, ghost-curse). Just my preference, but huge power users can still be just as deadly.
     
  10. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    In Hackmons i use 3 Huge Power, 2 Wonderguard and 1 Mold Breaker.
    Huge Power on sweepers, Wonderguard on walls and Mold Breaker on (special) set upers.
    Hackmons is so simple.

    No worry about coverage, defensive synergy, just pure power and mono/duo weaknesses.
    Boosting is actually easier in Hackmons, due lack of Imposter, Shedinja and less Prankster users.

    You cant wall stuff like this;
    252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Primal Groudon V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus: 393-463 (88.5 - 104.2%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Pure Power Primal Groudon Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Ghost: 406-478 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Pure Power Primal Groudon Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Arceus-Ghost: 248-294 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers
     
  11. iRaimon

    iRaimon New Member

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    some of the things you guys are saying... have you guys even played BH or hackmons? contrary doesn't need to go, and anyway BH is balanced right now with primals banned. hackmons isn't supposed to be balanced. THATS WHY ITS FUN. the possibilities are endless and any bans in hackmons make it, well, not hackmons.
     
  12. dramlamb

    dramlamb New Member

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    iRaimon I don't think a lack of balance would make any metagame fun. We're in total agreement that hackmons should by definition not have bans, but its the fact that hackmons does a remarkable job of self-balancing that makes it so fun. This is even more true of BW2 Hackmons, before Thousand Arrows and fairy moves allowed Pure Power to make the metagame more match-up based. If there was one set or even one basic approach that always won, obviously that would be boring. This automatic assumption that BH is balanced and Hackmons isn't is not accurate or fair. BH never really achieved much stability at all during the entirety of XY and the majority of ORAS averaging nearly a ban a month. The metagame still is dominated by a very specific type of team and is still arguably less balanced than ORAS hackmons. I'm guessing the prevalence of the myth that hackmons isn't balanced largely comes from Balanced Hackmon's rather presumptuous name, Smogon's attitude towards hackmons, and a general lack of understanding about hackmons itself.

    I can understand how a person with little or no knowledge about hackmons would come to the conclusion that if there are two versions of a game and one has additional rules that the game with more rules is more balanced. Fortunately though for hackmons, in this case they would be wrong. The metagame isn't perfect of course, but it is remarkably well balanced considering.

    As for BH--yes, it is in a period or relative stability but still has a ways to go before it achieves decent balance and given the direction the bans are moving I don't think it ever will. If anything it needs less bans not more, but we all know that won't happen. Lots of people apparently like it the way it is though so who am I to say they're wrong?
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2015
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  13. dramlamb

    dramlamb New Member

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    I can probably help you out. What kind of team are you interested in trying? Aggressive Balanced Offense, Safe Balanced Offense, Balanced Offense, Hyper Offense, Tricky, Baton Pass, Semistall, Full Stall, PP Stall? Here's an example of pretty standard (Balanced Offense) team for ORAS Hackmons:

    Deoxys-S @ Focus Sash
    Trait: No Guard
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Timid Nature (+Spd,-Atk)
    - Sheer Cold
    - Gastro Acid
    - Sing
    - Stealth Rock

    Giratina @ Griseous Orb
    Trait: Magic Bounce
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Curse
    - Heal Order
    - Baton Pass

    Mega Gengar @ Spooky Plate
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Judgment
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Dark Void
    - Shell Smash

    Mega Audino @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Wonder Guard
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    IVs: 0 Spd
    Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
    - Magic Coat
    - Recover
    - Defog
    - Parting Shot

    Mega Scizor @ Shed Shell
    Trait: Wonder Guard
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SDef
    IVs: 0 Spd
    Brave Nature (+Atk, -Spd)
    - Magic Coat
    - Roost
    - Aromatherapy
    - U-turn

    Chansey (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Imposter
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SDef / 252 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Skill Swap
    - Defog
    - Soft-Boiled
    - Whirlwind

    Team Pros:
    - 2 Wonder Guard defensive core, a bulky Magic Bouncer, Defog, and Aromatherapy make the team relatively resilient.
    - Mold Breaker Mega Gengar is an effective imposter-proofed sweeper
    - Imposter Chansey is a good way to see lots of sets and learn what the metagame has to offer
    - Access to indirect damage in Curse and Stealth Rocks

    Team Cons:
    - Both offensive sets frail and have no access to recovery
    - Predictable abilities and team structure
    - Imposter lacks momentum on it own
    - Passive Wonder Guard sets

    Let me know if you have any questions about these sets or if you would like an example of some other team archetype.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2015
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  14. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    Nice bump.

    Also sludgebomb to secret sword is lot better tbh
     
  15. dramlamb

    dramlamb New Member

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    Secret Sword of course is an option, it really comes down to what you want to hit. Secret Sword is the better known and original set made for the XY metagame. The addition of Mega Audino makes Sludge Bomb a better choice in ORAS Hackmons.

    +2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. -1 248 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 786-926 (111.8 - 131.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252 SpA Chansey Sludge Bomb vs. -1 248 HP / 252 SpD Mega Gengar: 110-130 (34 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    +2 252 SpA Mega Gengar Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 440-518 (107.5 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252 SpA Mega Gengar Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 139-164 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    +2 252 SpA Spooky Plate Mega Gengar Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 167-197 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    +2 252 SpA Mega Gengar Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Mega Tyranitar: 540-636 (133.9 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    If you are more worried about Mega Tyranitar than you are about Mega Audino than Secret Sword is a better option.
     
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2015
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  16. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    I would call Balanced Hackmons more balanced than Hackmons.
    You can only surprise with a different move in Hackmons.

    The team you listed is defensive stall.
    Deo-s + 2 Wonderguard users, 1 set up Sweeper along with 2 free choices.
    Still garbage, this 1 sweeper teams lose terribly hard to Prankster + Destiny Bond.

    Before ladder reset (November2015) there was a chinese name Nr.1 on Hackmons ladder with 1700+ score,
    i think he precalculated every outcome beforehand, i would say has solved Hackmons.
     
  17. dramlamb

    dramlamb New Member

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    What makes you think BH is more balanced? As far as I can tell its not really even close. In hackmons you can run several approaches effectively, in BH all you can effectively run is BO and semistall and most high level BH teams tend to look and work almost identically. BH sets tend to be, largely out of necessity, extremely predictable. You seem to think this predictability implies balance for some reason. In reality it's a lack of balance in the tier that leads to the predictable sets and team structure you see in BH. Hackmons balances itself more thoroughly that BH ever has and if the viability of more team structures isn't proof enough for you, consider this--BH needed the -ate and ability clauses. Think about that for a second. Using more than one -ate ability or more than 2 pokemon with the same ability on a hackmons team would almost always be handicap, but in BH it's the exact opposite--this is not the sign of a healthy, balanced tier.

    People throw the word stall around far too much, the team I listed is definitely a balanced offense team (a team archetype characterized by its combination of offensive sweepers, defensive pivots, and supporting roles to employ a safe, moderately aggressive strategy). The use of a Wonder Guard core (something almost all hackmons teams have) doesn't automatically make a team a stall team. Stall teams don't have sweepers at all and attempt to win using primarily indirect damage or simply waiting their opponents out. A stall team certainly wouldn't have 2 frail sweepers with no access to recovery. I'm aware this isn't the strongest team, I just wanted to throw some really common sets into a common team structure in order to provide a rough outline for a new player to understand what a hackmons team looks like and how it works.

    Yea I'm familiar with several of the high ladder Chinese players. They are certainly good, but I've beaten them all at one point or another (all the ones I've played anyway). No one has "solved hackmons", sorry. There were lots of players on PS that are just as good or better than our Chinese friends on PO. I don't say that as a slight to them at all, I think they are all very good and thoroughly enjoyed the matches we've played so far (even though they can get a little stressful).
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2016
  18. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ya just gonna say that the primals kinda break Balanced Hackmons, but whatever...
     
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  19. dramlamb

    dramlamb New Member

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    Yes they certainly don't help, but the problems I'm describing are far more fundamental to the tier and frankly there isn't an easy solution to them. Most of the people running BH understand this but don't really know how to fix it. If you don't like the primals they are banned on PS.
     
  20. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    Facts first; i like both Hackmons and Balanced Hackmons
    I peaked 1 in both and stayed top 5 in both for a while (10/15-11/15).
    I really enjoyed the Past Gen Hackmons Tour (BH from Gen1 to Gen5)


    The sets are a lot more unpredictable in BH.
    The main reason are alternative offensive and defensive abilities.
    These create situational movesets, synergies and counters which lead to unpredictablity.

    Team preview says P-Groudon. You have to look deeper into the team,
    P-Groudon can be used Choice Band, Contrary Sweeper, Set Up Sweeper, Weather reseter, Prankster Lead, Illusion Bluffer
    This unpredicatability is what i like the most about Balanced Hackmons.


    Hackmons is very simplistic

    Pure Power beats Wonderguard (right moves)
    Wonderguard beats Pure Power (wrong moves)
    Pure Power beats Mold Breaker
    Mold Breaker beats Imposter
    Imposter beats Pure Power
    Pure Power beats Shadow Tag
    Shadow Tag beats Wonderguard
    Wonder Guard beats Imposter
    Imposter beats Shadow Tag
    Shadow Tag beats Prankster
    Prankster beats Mold Breaker
    Mold Breaker beats Wonderguard
    Wonder Guard beats No Guard
    No Guard beats ANYTHING ELSE (bar Sturdy)

    From the guide of mastering Hackmons.
     
  21. TraceofLife

    TraceofLife Lucky Strike

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    what kind of guide is that??

    also, what do you guys think about suspecting both Primals from BH?

    I feel like both primals restricts teambuilding and such, P-Ogre rightout beats everything on it's own with it's Leech Seed, QD, Scald, Filler set, even imposters doesn't win even at +6 unless you crit. P-Don is very versatile but it's most dangerous set is CBand Tinted Lens/Desolate Land, CB Tinted Lens is literally walled by nothing, you can't even switch-in the don into any attack.

    so what do you guys think about this?
     
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  22. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I have been trying to propose this for so long now, they both act as unthealthy presences towards the meta, and heavily limit teambuilding. I would include Mega Rayquaza as well, due to Aerilate and Gale Wing sets being as equally broken imo.
     
  23. Blitzamirin

    Blitzamirin Waluigi! Number one!

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    The thing is... Where do you stop? I agree with banning the Primals and Mega Ray due to their sheer splashability and huge BST but what do you about something like the Mega Mewtwo pair (Protean Y immediately comes to mind)? Realize that as threats are banned, other top ones will overtake their place (either bc of lack of slots / opportunity cost / being overshadowed / whatever), so where do you draw the line where a Hackmons threat is considered too overbearing for the tier?

    Also, have EVs been addressed here? You can't legally use all EVs ingame in Pokemon XY / ORAS vs another trainer (but you can hack in moves / abilities afaik) so in the interest of playability the 510 CAP would need to be enforced. I personally prefer max EVs but it's a question for the playerbase rly
     
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  24. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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  25. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    TraceofLife said:

    what kind of guide is that??
    also, what do you guys think about suspecting both Primals from BH?

    Pokeboss9 answer:

    If it cant be proven wrong its mastered. If you have mastered a portion, its part of the guide of mastering Hackmons.
    stupid why did u ask

    (Idk how to use quotes)
     
  26. dramlamb

    dramlamb New Member

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    Pokeboss9, you ignored the points I made about the diversity of team archetypes and the necessity of the -ate and ability clauses. Not saying that to score debate points or anything like that, just want to make sure we're not just talking past one another.

    That's cool. Congratulations on your ladder success. I really enjoyed BW2 Hackmons and think both hackmons and BH were better in BW2 than in XY or ORAS. I'm not sure what you mean when you say Gen1 to Gen5 since BH was created during Gen 5. What would Gen1 BH even mean?


    That's an interesting perspective. I don't see why you think this doesn't also apply to pure hackmons. In fairness, most players in both tiers are seldom unpredictable--most people don't understand just how much hackmons has to offer. BH is definitely more restrictive and that makes sets more predictable since there are less viable strategies. There are simply too many threats to effectively deal with without playing in a very specific way.

    Again. You can say the exact same thing about Mega Mewtwo-X, Mega Mewtwo-Y, Deoxys-S, Mega Rayquaza, Arceus, Palkia, Primal Kyogre and several others in pure hackmons. Except in pure hackmons there are even more viable abilities and movesets.


    Ok, even if I just accepted all of this at face value, that still sounds like a pretty intense game of rock, paper, scissors. That said there are many problems with this list. First, you seem to be using it to imply that you couldn't also apply a similar oversimplification to the BH metagame. Then comes the problems with the list itself. The most obvious is that many of these statements are only sometimes true. Many Mold Breakers are Imposter-proofed, but certainly not all of them. Shadow Tag is a great way of eliminating Wonder Guarders and other more defensive pokemon, but not if they have pivot moves or Shed Shells. Pranksters tend to be a good answer against Mold Breakers, provided they aren't sweeping with Extreme Speed or carrying Taunt. Shadow Tag might be a good answer for some Pranksters, but pose absolutely no threat to others. Also it ignores several viable abilities entirely--Magic Bounce, Magic Guard, Refrigerate, Aerialate, Pixilate, Parental Bond, Protean, Infiltrator, Poison Heal, Gale Wings, Arena Trap and Contrary to name a few. Furthermore, several of the relationships between the 7 abilities it does mention are not dealt with--Prankster vs. Wonder Guard or Shadow Tag vs. Mold Breaker for example. Another problem is it uses the word "beats" to mean several different things--walls, forces out, sweeps, phases, knocks out--all of which have wildly different implications. Sure Shadow Tag doesn't work on an Imposter, but I wouldn't say that Imposter beats Shadow Tag.

    Analyzing hackmons by the interplay of its common abilities is interesting and certainly has its merits, but not at the cost of ignoring how moves, items, team support can affect those relationships.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
  27. pokeboss9

    pokeboss9 Member

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    dramlamb, you post really interesting stuff, its just we have diffent opinions.
    Here it already starts, i think ate-restrction is unneeded since the Primals got released.

    I did not play BH BW2/X/Y i cant judge well on there. I have 1 BH team for this tour from 10/15
    http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/past-gens-balanced-hackmons-sign-ups.32256/

    I think i understand you a bit better now, you rate team strategies higher while i value
    individual sets as differential.

    I may have seen the 2nd misunderstanding; you see multiple options if 1 poke can run several sets,
    for me the sets themselves have to be different.
    For me it doesnt count if Mewtwo X can run No Guard if Deo-S does it better, or Wonderguard if
    M-Salabeye can do it better. Sure alot of stuff is viable but mostly outclassed.

    I could not make a similar oversimplification for BH, because BH is more complex.

    The Imposter has to sacrifice item slot, and you will know its coverage set beforehand.

    Shadow Tag + Trickscarf gets rid of Shed Shell. (arkeis used such a Mewtwo X).

    I had Magic Bounce on the list aswell. But it only beats Prankster
    and i had problems getting back to x beat y, y beats z. So i shorted the list.

    You can win with no attackmoves, beating is relative.

    Imposter vs Shadow Tag,
    i did not saw the possibility of a defensive copy getting trapped.
    I still give Imposter the edge due either copying a sweeper, many walls are ghost type,
    better stats if copy and the potential Shed Shell.
    I have not good memories using Shadow Tag, everything trapworthy is covered, and i was never
    willing build 2 sets to maybe trap 1 poke.

    Sadly wrong, Hackmons has very little move interaction due No Guard + Sheer Cold + Sing/Dark Void.
    The faster poke mostly wins and is always favorite.
    This mechanic forces players to use 2 Wonderguard plus its solo reason Deo-S is most used.

    Mostly Focus Sash, Lum Berry, Shed Shell and Leftovers will serve you well.


    I have only 3 Hackmons battles logged, 1st against arkeis, the last 2 against that chinese dude i said solved Hackmons.
    The teams used were;

    Your team: Mega Mewtwo X / Primal Groudon / Mega Rayquaza / Primal Kyogre / Arceus-Fairy / Rhydon
    Opponent's team: Mega Aerodactyl / Meloetta / Mega Sableye / Mega Audino / Mega Gengar / Chansey

    Your team: Mega Mewtwo X / Primal Groudon / Mega Rayquaza / Primal Kyogre / Arceus-Fairy / Mega Rayquaza
    Opponent's team: Deoxys-S / Arceus / Spiritomb / Primal Kyogre / Mega Gengar / Xerneas

    Your team: Mega Mewtwo X / Primal Groudon / Mega Rayquaza / Primal Kyogre / Arceus-Fairy / Mega Rayquaza "
    Opponent's team: Deoxys-S / Mega Steelix / Spiritomb / Primal Kyogre / Mega Gengar / Xerneas


    Every top team looks either like theirs or mine. In my current team i use Kyruem-B over 1 Mega Rayquaza,
    Total of 4 Huge Power and 2 Wonderguard.
    Reason is this;
    252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Kyurem-B Ice Shard vs. -1 252 HP / 252 Def Mega Gengar: 313-370 (96.6 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance


    I like Hackmons, You have to know for yourself what you like about it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2016