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Suspect Discussion: Togekiss (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by NananaBatman, Apr 14, 2015.

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  1. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    All credits goes to Da Raikage for this masterpiece

    Discuss the possibility of Togekiss being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Togekiss's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on wether togekiss should be banned (or not) from the metagame (being unsure about it is fine too!).

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Togekiss in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    If you are unsure about posting, check this guide.
     
    Insane Soul, snaga, E.T. and 4 others like this.
  2. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Solid picture.

    OK my impression on Togekiss after using it for a couple weeks. It is so exceptionally fat I don't even know. It lives a wide range of everything especially on its invested side. I invested in Physical Defense because I wanted to and it surprised me continuously with how much it survives anything. But that alone is attributable to something like Mega Audino as well. What makes Togekiss a threat is its 120 base SpA and disgusting ability in S-Grace. It allows it to cut through almost anything slower than it with luck alone, and in conjunction with Thunder Wave there are very few Pokémon that can really reliably deal with Togekiss. Things like Florges and Umbreon are fairly reliable ways to stop it killing anything (although Florges and Umbreon can't really kill it themselves unless they run Toxic) but even they can be overcome if they've been knocked off by a team-mate. Which with Pokémon like Weavile, Krook and even Tentacruel in the tier, isn't so hard to do. The set I'm really talking about here is a defensive set with Roost/Twave/Air Slash/Filler, the filler can be Defog if the team needs it or it can be Fire Blast/Aura Sphere to help deal with certain Pokémon like Mega Aggron that can take a whole lot of Air Slashes.

    NP Togekiss can be a thing but honestly in this tier I don't even see it needing NP to break holes in teams, it's rarely at immediate risk from an offensive threat, it can almost always get a Twave off at the very least due to its near insurmountable bulk.
    252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Togekiss: 294-348 (78.8 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery. Unless it gets Flinched or rocks are up, that means Weavile is getting Twaved and Roosted on. LO fares better because it can Ice Shard and finish it off after getting para'd. Weavile obviously isn't the most important example ever, but it is a representation of what Togekiss does to many threats.
    Just to prove the point that even when uninvested Togekiss is standing up to special attacks to some ridiculous degree.
    252 SpA Life Orb Roserade Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 330-393 (88.4 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

    Now what actually beats it reliably.
    Raikou or Mamoswine are probably two of your best bets going. Espeon can stop its bullshit but might struggle to actually kill it without CM. Blissey or a fat Snorlax would require some incredible luck to get past as well. So it's not without its checks by any means.

    So summary.
    Do I think Togekiss is unstoppable? No not really.
    Do I think Togekiss is capable of tearing holes in teams with little more than luck? Yes, but only if they don't have one of the few reliable checks.
    Do I think Togekiss is a reasonable Pokémon to have in this metagame? I would probably lean no.
     
    Twerk and Fiery Espeon like this.
  3. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    Weavile covered most of what I was gnna say.
    It's too good at everything it does and retardedly easy to fit on teams, #2 in usage behind broken ice pig.
    I can't think of one downside to this thing other than that it's weak to rocks, which isn't even a problem because we have pretty decent hazard control in this tier, and Kiss can function as one of it wants to because of how versatile it is.

    T-wave Air Slash coupled with stupid bulk/typing/reliable recovery is the biggest problem imo. It essentially forces you to run like Raikou/MegaMan so you don't get your revenge killer para'd (which is not uncommon because of how fat Togekiss is).
    Mamo is a decent check but it's not ideal because it gets 3hkoed by uninvested Air Slashes. Most special walls and walls in general can't deal with Kiss because of paraflinching. Umbreon, Florges, PhysdefMence, Chesnaught, Snorlax, P2, Tentacruel, etc are all flinch fodder that aren't strong enough to break through the fat.

    So yea like I said can't add much more to Weavile's post, ban pels.
     
  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    With how much hax Togekiss brings to the tier, combined with its natural bulk, incredible typing, brilliant utility, power and even decent Speed, I for one certainly wouldn't miss Togekiss if it were banned to OU.

    There's so little in the tier that can reliably handle it that you either have to look for ridiculous, gimmicky alternatives, like Inner Focus Umbreon (who only wins if it packs Toxic), or randomly Scarfing Ground-types, and by definition, that is overcentralising. I know you guys hate that word, but I personally believe it applies here. Togekiss restricts teambuilding to the point where you're paranoid of having a single thing in your team that's slower than Togekiss or not a special wall. Seeing as that combination is basically unheard of in the tier (bulky CM Raikou... I guess), I'd be more than happy if this cancer were banned from the tier.
     
  5. [OG] Swanna Lady

    [OG] Swanna Lady Y.......Yo......You.....YOU'RE FAT!

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    [OG] Swanna lady
    This is probably the first suspect I am leaning toward ban in (except mabye Goodra in XY NU) because unlike most suspects, this one is actually a broken pokemon. It has great bulk but, like Weavile said, many other pokemon have bulk as good as it. The problem Togekiss has over the other pokemon is the 120 special attack (high for UU), the Serene Grace ability, and a somewhat average speed (Good for something this bulky) it can really destroy teams. I use Togekiss to a good effect in OU (I'm not the best player but it always seems to be the star of my team) so I know UU is going to struggle with it a lot more. The Togekiss set I use is Choice Scarf Air Slash/Psychic/Heat Wave/Shadow Ball. The Choice Scarf makes up for its average speed and all 4 moves have their secondary effects boosted by Serene Grace. All 4 moves do a reasonable amount of damage and they have great coverage, with the only types it can't hit effectively being Water and Rock.

    Another set it can run is the defensive Togekiss set (which will from now on will be referred to as Deftog). The standard Deftog is: Roost, Protect/Defog, Toxic/Thunder Wave, Air Slash. This can be a particularly dangerous set as it can scout other sets with Protect, it can recover HP without worry because losing flying type only reduces its weaknesses and it can ParaFlinch with Air Slash, which, coupled with Serene Grace, will give them only a 15% chance of even moving. This set can also be run with Toxic so it can wear opponents down and use Air Slash to give a 60% chance of flinching while also being able to use Protect so you get free damage. Defog is also useful to get rid of hazards AND make it so Air Slash will always hit. It is recommended to use Thunder Wave over Toxic though but Toxic could work.

    I think that Scarf Togekiss and Deftog are both extremely strong and the 60% chance of flinching with a STAB move which does reasonable damage and the option to run Thunder Wave to make an 85% chance of flinching makes me want a ban

     
  6. DAZZY VANCE

    DAZZY VANCE Do you even know Dazzy Vance

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    First off I want to note the fact that I agree with swanna-lady which is tough for most of us. Togekiss should be banned and it should have been done forever and a day ago. It's bulk and special attack with serene grace has the ability to sweep most teams. Even without choice scarf its speed is good enough for most things and its bulk makes up for the rest throw twave in there and you got an issue waiting on most uu teams. So I say with most others BAN.
     
  7. bugzinator

    bugzinator Well-Known Member

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    Supporting a togekiss ban, thing is ridiculously versatile with it's supporting options alone not to mention how potent it can be as a stall breaker; access to serene grace + air slash + nasty plot make it incredibly difficult to check as an offensive presence.

    85/95/115 defences with fairy typing and roost let it just come in and wall Dragons, Fighting types, Grass types, Dark types, Mega Toise, Mega Pidgeot etc and support it's team with a ridiculous amount of options, including: Defog (which despite it's stealth rock weakness will find plenty of chances to come in on the afore mentioned threats and remove hazards reliably), T-wave (which lets it cripple and out speed pretty much everything which isn't an Electric or Ground type and proceed to flinch to death), Heal Bell (which again will find plenty of chances to use and support it's self in conjunction with Nasty Plot to become an incredible stall breaker) and Baton Pass (which combined with great typing and bulk lets it pull off +2 passes easily).

    Also has 120 base special attack and "sik coverage m8" which means it can run some nice offensive sets with either 3 attack roost or nasty plot and make would be "checks" such as mega aggron and rhyperior cry. Nasty plot + Heal Bell is another option which Togekiss can run and is ridiculously dangerous against most stall teams as they lack the power to ko it and can't wear it down with status while it proceeds to set up and flinch past their special walls.

    There are some pokemon which do well against Togekiss such as Raikou and Mamoswine which can't be T-waved and don't fear flinches, but it's really not enough in comparison to what Togekiss brings to the table; being able to come in on so many threats and support it's team in a myriad of ways while also being able to run offensive sets which can flat out destroy stall is just too good ban pls.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2015
  8. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Time to wrap this up.

    Togekiss' distinctive trait is not its ability to 2HKO everything in the tier. It's more of a support pokemon, with good bulk, decent typing and a very good support movepool (with moves like heal bell, defog, thunder wave and even baton pass). However, it is not limited to supporting, as acces to thunder wave and serene grace air slash means it is capable of flinching its way through dedicated special walls. Togekiss also boasts an impressive offensive movepool, meaning nasty plot sweeping is also a possibility. Its ability to hax its way through most of the tier means counters are scarce.

    All in all, Togekiss is just too good for the tier, and will be Banned from ORAS UU.
     
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