1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Cloudflare Security Issue - Change Your Passwords!

    Hello there, Guest!

    Cloudflare, the internet proxy we use to protect ourselves against DDoS and other malicious attacks, reported on 23rd February 2017 that they had patched a bug reported by Google's Project Zero that was exposing sensitive information in random requests, approximately 0.00003% of all requests, since September 2016.

    Whilst it is unlikely that any information has been leaked from this website, we recommend that all users change their passwords here on the Pokémon Online forums, as a precaution. Remember to use a unique and secure password for every site that requires one.

    We apologise for any inconvenience caused.

    Dismiss Notice
  3. The Main PO Server has moved hosts!, Guest!

    The new advanced connection for the official Pokémon Online server is 137.74.231.216:5080. No other IP addresses other than those listed in this announcement are for the main official server.

    Dismiss Notice

Suspect Discussion: Mamoswine (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by NananaBatman, Apr 19, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2014
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    548
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Special thanks to Lasen and Draciel for the awesome pics

    Discuss the possibility of Mamoswine being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Mamoswine's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on wether Mamoswine should be banned (or not) from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Mamoswine in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
    snaga, Fiery Espeon, Draciel and 9 others like this.
  2. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    When I think of Mamoswine, 2 sets come to my mind: Lead SR and LO revenge killer.
    Mamo has nice abilities ( one reducing fire damage and another one allowing it to never be taunted)
    I will talk about the LO one mostly, because it is the set that causes troubles:

    Ice shard and Earthquake are mandatory,so that gives Mamo space for 2 more moves
    Viable ones are: Stone edge, Freeze Dry, Icicle spear/crash, Superpower, Knock off.

    It does pack some counters such as Suicune, Cresselia, Vaporeon and very used checks such as Blastoise. In other words most bulky waters.

    For this part I don't have a calc to give numbers but I will talk about it's impact in the metagame:

    Mamoswine is one of the best SR users, and can be hard to predict in the lead options. Last move can be Endeavour, Icicle Crash/Spear or other form of support moves and that always put the oppenent in a situation where he is scared of losing a valuable mon because of Endeavour/Ice shard.
    It also gives a good way of revenge killing some dragons ( such as Salamence, Hydreigon when >60% with LO iirc) that can be paintful to deal with.
    Mamoswine is not centralizing to the point you need at least a check to it because it has very common weaknesses ( Fighting, Water, Grass) but also has a nice ability to absorb Volt switch.

    It has very nice partners such as Toxicroak who takes the 3 weaknesses and can deal with most Suicune, but that only proves that Mamo really needs support in order to work correctly.

    Moreover, I do believe that Mamoswine is a nice addition in UU, it's defenitely top tier, but I don't think it is overpowered for the tier.

    Anyway, that's my opinion, I could developp more in the future but I do believe ( from my experience at the moment) that not banning is the way to go.
     
  3. Ice Tea

    Ice Tea :^#)

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2014
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    191
    This is some bull right over here.
    My opinion on Mamoswine in the current meta is clear, it's way to good.
    It life orb set is the most threatening imo as it can deal huge damage to almost any Pokemon in the tier.
    Sash sui lead is also a good option as it gets safe rocks with Oblivious and acces to nice movepool.
    Scarf is an option too or band but these aren't that good like the both mentioned above.

    So yeah in dept it has very few counters like honestly it doesnt even have counters beside some niche shit but that shows again that you have to run bullshit mons which means again it's overcentralizing.
    My opinion to that that we should ban Mamo cuz it's way to fucking powerful to be dealt.

    And now to you Mr. I know all tiers Carl Murray, what u are saying is garbage.
    No. No.
    I will prove u wrong
    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Suicune has to be at max which isn't most time the case also Suicune is forced to rest on the 2nd Eq if u wanna preserve it which means a lot if you have Entei in the bag and mamo can easily keep eq'ing.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 200 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 230-270 (50.9 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Bs imo.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 192-229 (43.2 - 51.5%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    Cresselia loses it lefties and limits the switchins. It's still a decent check.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 199-235 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Nice check u got there jajaj xd

    And to ur Dragon check thingy we have fucking Weavile one of the most powerful Ices there helo.

    tl;dr Mamo is overcentralizing it's too good to less checks to powerful ban
     
    Twerk likes this.
  4. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    1,448
    PO Trainer Name:
    Edna
    If you play Adamant you will miss a lot of speed tiers ( I assumed Jolly is better in that case, but I give you the credit for calc since I don't have a calc atm)

    Cress takes one knock off and then uses moonlight, so it will usualy beat it 1v1 with energy ball or whatever

    Suicune does a lot of scald, and 2 LO hits means if is already at 80% ( not even considering rocks here) and even has a chance to burn hax.

    Ok I overestimated Vap bulk.
    I don't want to enter in a long debate, I just gave my thoughts, and I will respect all the others ones so please do as well.
     
  5. Ice Tea

    Ice Tea :^#)

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2014
    Messages:
    72
    Likes Received:
    191
    Yes Energy Ball is totally viable!
    Dude you mentioned it as a counter you know what a counter is it can switch in onto any move without fearing nothinng Suicune can't!
    Yeah also i never said differrent that Cress can counter it js that Knock Off will cripple it but so other threats can take on it tho.
     
  6. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    165
    None of those barring Cress is a counter, and Mega Blast is a horrendous check, it's not even a check.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 230-270 (49.5 - 58.1%) -- 62.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -Extremely shaky check at best, if it isn't at max HP or if rocks are up it gets cleanly 2HKOed as if a 62% to 2HKO already isn't enough.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 153-181 (37.8 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    -No reliable recovery whatsoever, it forces Suicune to rest and after has to rely on a 1/3 chance to get Scald which can't even OHKO, does like 70%.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 199-235 (55.5 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    -Can't switch in so is not a check. Switches in, takes 60%, and gets outsped and KOed. More of a revenge killer which shouldn't even be mentioned.

    As far as Cress, Knock Off does a clean like 48%. Cress losing Lefties is pretty huge and Cress can't even hit Mamo hard because of how passive it is.

    I see no reason for Jolly other than to outspeed a Jolly Gatr (most are Adamant if SD anyway). Togekiss almost never runs speed so you don't have to worry about Tog, and Chandy is Scarf a large majority of the time and even if it isn't, even if it's running Timid Specs the best you're going to get is a speed tie so I believe Adamant is a superior choice.

    You've gotta be kidding me, hello? Energy Ball? I have literally never seen Energy Ball on a Cress, it's a completely garbage option. I went to usage stats because I was curious if an Energy Ball Cress has even ever been used, and lo and behold it has.
    # 24 - 0.30 % (3 battles)
    Nature: Calm - EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 152 SDef (100.0 %)
    • Rest
    • Sleep Talk
    • Calm Mind
    • Energy Ball
    What a set

    As I said Suicune is forced to Rest after even one EQ hit because if it comes in next time on an EQ if it doesn't rest, it's getting 2HKOed. (EQ is a 3hko after Lefties).
    That's kind of the point for a suspect, if you're giving your opinions and don't want them challenged then why post at all?

    Mamo should be banned. Its complete lack of switchins coupled with decent bulk, amazing dual STAB combination, very solid Atk stat, excellent priority for the tier, decent speed, annoying Knock Off to cripple its already low number of true counters, and sheer utility make it too much for the tier.
     
  7. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this victini into gengar Tier Leader Tier Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    377
    Likes Received:
    675
    PO Trainer Name:
    [TR]gengar17
    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Umbreon: 157-187 (39.8 - 47.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    (im not sure if that's the most popular umbreon spread, but i think it's the best one in UU since it takes on nido too so i'll go with it)
    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 203-239 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    (also not sure about this spread but it can be nice to possibly stall out the life orbs or set up a few calm minds if low rolls)
    cresselia loses its lefties but it can set up calm minds if it's that set and then it would be harder to beat it since other dark types will have their knock off weakened because no item (assuming moonblast/psyshock set)
    rotom-h can come in on anything bar the uncommon? stone edge which does 71-83, or risks getting knock'd off but it can always wisp/pain split.
    suicune can beat it i guess, it was already mentioned how it would work/not work, but suicune is always common and effective vs it.
    forretress is pretty fat so it can set up some hazards or gyro but eq wears it down quickly (37-44)
    Mamo has quite a lot of revenge killers, and if it's adamant it will have a couple of mons outspeed it like toxicroak/fera, whereas jolly misses on some 2hkoes

    now on the other side of the spectrum, mamo is goddamn powerful and beats so many things in the tier, and has a very useful priority and awesome stabs that hit everything at least neutrally (bronzong rip), only a few things that i mentionned above can potentially switch in, (also rotom is worn down by rocks easily)
    personally i havent had much troubles with mamo because my teams are rather fat and usually carry like 2 of the mons i listed, but cant deny that's it's pretty powerful.
    Honestly, other than those, everything else just loses unless they somehow get a safe switch (which is made even harder because of volt switch blocking), and thick fat is a great addition to even beat more things.

    I'll stay neutral on the ban for now due to my lack of experience in the tier.
     
    Purpleseamonkey likes this.
  8. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2014
    Messages:
    370
    Likes Received:
    165
    I'm just gnna address your anti-ban points since I agree with your pro-ban point.

    Physdef Umb, while not awful is still seriously outclassed by SpDef. It can't deal with most SpAtkers nearly as well including Focus Blast Nidoking, Alakazam, Specs Chandy, Mega Pidgeot, and a host of others.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Chandelure Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 255-301 (64.7 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 265-315 (67.2 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Alakazam Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 214-254 (54.3 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Mega Sceptile Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Umbreon: 226-268 (57.3 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    With SpDef Calm Umbreon completely walls all these mons.

    252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 263-309 (62 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Easily 2HKOed by EQ+Knock Off, not a good switchin at all.
    If it's defensive Rotom-H, it's a decent check. Scarf Rotom takes like 65 from Knock Off. Knock Off only does like 40% to defensive Rotom but Lefties loss is kinda huge for it because same with CroCune, it doesn't have reliable recovery.

    Again, more of a bandage than a solution. It's going to get worn down super easily.

    I don't think revenge killers should be mentioned at all because almost every mon in the game can be revenge killed. What revenge killing assumes is that you've already sacked something to it, which is not a good anti-ban argument in any tier.

    So what it comes down to is Cress or 3 shaky checks which have no reliable recovery (Cune, Rotom, Forre). Cune is forced to Rest the first turn it gets EQd because EQ is a 3HKO. It can't risk Scalding because if Mamo comes in, it's going to die to two EQs. Rotom loses Lefties and has to rely on Pain Split which is garbage, and Forre is again, worn down very easily.
     
    snaga and Twerk like this.
  9. bugzinator

    bugzinator Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2012
    Messages:
    334
    Likes Received:
    521
    Supporting a Mamoswine ban; 100% agree that the only pokemon which should be listed as a reliable counter is Cresselia (Physically defensive Umbreon is a bad set imo), other things which are being listed such as Suicune, Forretress, & Rotom-H lack reliable recovery and are fairly easy to ware down, letting Mamoswine break through more often than not.

    Can't really see much of an argument for keeping Mamoswine tbh; has 130 base attack with ground & ice stabs making it almost impossible to play around, can use life orb to get comfortable 2hkos on the tier and easy 3hkos on the small list of pokemon which try to check it, has good enough bulk to tank a hit or two and has priority Ice Shard to threaten an extensive list of faster offensive pokemon (Hydregion, Salamence, Aerodactyl, Pidgeot, Beedrill, Alakazam, Crobat & Nidoking) meaning it can't be forced out easily either. Overall just a powerful pokemon which can easily fit on teams and lacks switches.
     
    MUMU likes this.
  10. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2014
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    548
    Alright I'll end this,

    Mamoswine's offensive capabilities have been proven to be really impressive. The UU metagame really struggles to find checks/counters to the mammoth's STAB moves. As if these weren't good enough, it gets knock off, one of the most spammable moves there is (when in doubt, click knock off and cripple something). Mamoswine is just incredibly difficult to switch into. It does have some trouble coming in, but an immunity to electric moves helps a lot and its physical bulk is alright for an offensive pokemon. Its average speed is a downside, but its powerful ice shard means it can still pull its way against faster teams.

    All in all, mamoswine's power is just too much for the metagame, and so it will be banned from ORAS UU.
     
    E.T., karkinos and snaga like this.
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.