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Suspect Discussion: Reuniclus (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Aurist, May 1, 2015.

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  1. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Reuniclus from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Reuniclus as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.


    [​IMG]

    o∞°(ツ)°∞o
     
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  2. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    Reuniclus is a very fat mon that is a huge threat in LU, outclasses most cm mons (including cm cresselia) thanks to its great ability magic guard. after 1 or 2 calm minds it becomes incredibly hard to stop, and it gets all the coverage it needs, even though sometimes with the cm set it's a harder choice between hitting dark types with fblast (or signal beam) or using shadowball for doublade. it cant be stalled out with status, it's powerful as hell with 125 base spa, and very respectable bulk sitting at 110 75 85.
    Reuni is more versatile than it seems, since it can run a specs (future sight) regenerator set, which is also another good ability it gets, for a more hit and run strategy, or it can be a great trick room setter for slow teams. It can also run life orb and avoid recoil from magic guard to hit incredibly hard.
    With honchkrow and mega sharpedo banned, LU might be running out of checks to beat it.
    some mons that can stop reuni are doublade which is used a lot in the tier, but it can only switch in on 1 shadowball, hippo can whirl the cm set since they usually run psyshock over psychic which does nothing to hippo (but hippo can only whirl it, last mon reuni would easily win)
    regular sharpedo can come in as long as reuni doesnt use/have fblast
    heres fat reuni calc :
    252+ Atk Life Orb Sharpedo Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 307-361 (72.4 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    escavalier ofc is a great counter that can beat almost all reuni sets (unless uncommon hp fire?)
    AV meloetta does pretty well vs it as well, or cm meloetta if that is used)
    Pangoro and zoroark can mess around it as well.
    Bottom line, even though there are some very viable checks/counters in LU for reuni, i think it would be healthier for the tier if it gets banned, since with the right support, reuni can be extremely threatening.
     
  3. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    I don't think that Reuniclus is actually broken, and I also don't think that banning Psychic mons just because MSharpedo and Honchkrow are gone is the greatest idea (also because CM Reuni could easily handle Honchkrow lacking roost in a 1v1).

    The first thing that comes to mind when comparing Reuni to the other fatty Psychic mon in the tier (Cresselia) is that he actually lack of versatility (Cresselia can run a lot of functional sets: CMinder, Rest CMinder, TWave support, TRoom, Screener and she also learns Lunar Dance) ; It can actually run 2 set effectively: CM , that is the strongest set and prolly the reason why it is being suspected, and 3 Atk + Recover/TRoom, all the other sets are pretty scrappy, AVest Reuni is outclassed by Slowking, and Specs isn't the greatest idea when it can runs MGuard+Life Orb.

    The 3 Atk set is very strong, but isn't really a problem, even if he can afford an almost perfect coverage and with base 125 SAtk+Orb it hits really hard, he has to choose between TR (for beating faster mons), or recover to beats mons like Vaporeon/P2/Aromatisse. This set seems really well-performing in the actual metagame, but it has its flaws: its a lot less bulkier than CMind version (is getting 2hkoed by most of STAB moves of offensive mons and is still being threaten by a lot of mons that actually counter it (all sort of Meloetta, Escavelier, Spiritomb and in some situations also Doublade).

    I see the CM set in a similar way to CM Clefable in OU, it can be really threatening if you let it sets up, but he has a lot of coverage problems (choosing between Shadow Ball or Focus Blast is not easy, with SBall it can beats Doublade and CM Spiritomb, and thanks to the SDef drop chances also other cminder lacking SBall, with Focus Blast it can beats dark types, that is actually a great thing in combination with a Colbur Berry), also its bulkyness is pretty mediocre if compared to Cresselia, meaning that it cant setup on most of the tier strong attacks. Also there are a lot of ways to stop him even if he can manage to boost in some ways, like Encore Whimsicott, Smeargle with a Sleep Move, Taunters, strong attackers (CBand Tyrantrum/Emboarr, Specs things like Exploud, PZ or Yanmega), dark Types mons, Escavelier/Durant, Phazers (Goodra, Hippo, Milotic and MSteelix), and Trickers (Noivern, PZ).

    Final thoughts: Reuniclus is a great mon, it has an excellent ability in MGuard, good Bulkyiness and great SAtk, but is definetely not broken, it has limited usable movesets, and its CM set is really limited by the coverage move it chooses and still there are a lot of ways to stop it from setup/sweep, also its pure psychic type isn't the greatest neither offensively nor defensively, so I'm leaning towards NO BAN


    Also Shaymin stops reuni, Shaymin is the bane of cminders lol
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
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  4. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    I'll give my thoughts about Reuniclus:
    To sumarize quite easily Reuniclus, it sets up on any physical wall that lacks Whirlwind/Dragon Tail ( phazing moves) and it becomes a nightmare to face.

    It has pros and cons like every pokes of the metagame.
    Pros: extremeley bulky, set up easy on late game, can only be beaten after CM by some random crits. Even SE moves such as Knock off don't always KO it:
    252 Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 237-281 (55.8 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Doublade Shadow Claw vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 204-242 (48.1 - 57%) -- 42.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 200+ Def Reuniclus: 272-324 (64.1 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Trick Room set: This set has so much potential in the LU tier, because of the teamates it can help by setting up Trick Room, such as Doublade, Abomasnow etc.
    It hits like a truck and is hard to counter since it does have the Ghost/Fighting coverage.
    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 216+ SpD Drapion: 162-192 (47.2 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Doublade: 286-338 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 212+ SpD Slowking: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 50% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    Cons: Knock off being a common move, the chances to Reuniclus losing leftovers are pretty high, considering the amount of Knock off users of the LU tier ( Drapion, Hitmonlee, Zoroak,Gallade,Pangoro and others) so except Recover, it will have hard time dealing with some threats where the Leftovers would have been very handy.
    Slow pokemon and the CM set is crippled hardly by Taunt, it also can be phazed out by Slowking with Dragon Tail, and Milotic can use Haze to remove the boosts.

    In defenitive: Reuniclus is an excellent pokemon, though the bad typing it has, it can accomplish so much work in the LU tier. I'm pretty undecided at the moment, but I think I'm leaning to ban.
     
  5. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    I have run a stall team with CM Reuniclus as the wincon, and even during the time when tier was infested with ridiculously powerful threats like Honchkrow, Reuni could on average use around 4 out 6 mons from the opposing team as setup bait. Depending on coverage it can beat whatever it wants to beat while leaving the rest to be handled by his team mates. For example Shadow ball beats Doublade, Focus Blast beats Dark types and steel types, Signal Beam beats Psychic types and provides yet another move to hit dark types. Then there's the powerful Trick Room set which hits like a truck, uses the 3 move coverage and provides support to the teammates.


    Yeah, Reuni is weak to knock off, but CM reuniclus does not care about unstabbed knock off too much. Recover on the knock off turn means u can easily get past the opposing Hitmonlee and such.
    252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 250-294 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


    Picking up from fren @gengar17 's examples, most of the things that supposedly beat reuniclus only does so in specific condition. Melo only beats Trick Room Reuni(even then Weakness Policy TR reuni is a thing, and I have found that out the hard way, multiple times). AV meloetta can not stop CM Reuniclus, neither does CM Meloetta. Melo does not have recovery, Reuni does. Reuni can either beat cm melo with signal beam or psyshock, since melo is much more physically frail.
    252+ SpA Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 146-172 (34.4 - 40.5%) -- 48.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Choice Specs Meloetta Shadow Ball vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 198-234 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


    Zoroark does not beat a full health Reuniclus either, specially if its under Trick Room. Focus Blast always ohkos Zoro regardless of the set, while Zoroark can not ohko TR reuniclus with sucker or cm reuniclus with knock off.
    4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Zoroark: 352-416 (134.8 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    196 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 296-351 (69.8 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    196 Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Reuniclus: 354-421 (83.4 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    Pangoro is royally screwed if Reuni is the TR variant for obvious reasons. It needs a choice band to ohko with knock off. On the other hand if Pangoro is the fast sd variant or scarf variant, then it has a good chance to get ohkod by cm reuni after rocks even WITHOUT any boost.
    252+ Atk Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 290-344 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Choice Band Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 438-516 (103.3 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 481-567 (122 - 143.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 278-328 (83.7 - 98.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 4 SpA Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Pangoro: 416-490 (125.3 - 147.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO



    @NaCl I beg to disagree, Shaymin does not necessarily beat Reuniclus and the generalization that it beats all CM sweepers is not true either. Last I checked, Seed Flare is not guaranteed to drop special defense. Hell it has a 40% chance, meaning its more likely than not that such drop will not occur. In order for Shaymin to switch in and beat any variant of Reuni, Shaymin absolutely has to get the drop on the first seed flare hit(While we are relying on hax to beat Reuni, lets remember seed flare misses 15% of the time)

    TR Reuniclus:
    Reuni sets up TR, Shaymin switches in. Reuni is now faster and cleanly 2hkos.
    252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 243-289 (57.3 - 68.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 183-216 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


    CM Reuniclus: Reuni sets up CM, you send out Shaymin. Shaymin Seed Flare only 3hkos without the sp def drop. Unless Shaymin gets the Sp Def drop(you have better chance of hitting grasswhistle, why not try that :tongue:), its 2hkod before Shaymin can kill Reuni.
    +1 4 SpA Reuniclus Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin: 157-186 (46 - 54.5%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin Seed Flare vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 164-192 (38.6 - 45.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery


    Spiritomb has been brought up as a counter to Reuniclus. Its true it does pretty well against TR reuniclus. But the only set that has a chance of beating CM reuniclus is the CM Rest talk set, which might still fail due to bad sleep talk rolls.
    Offensive support Spiritomb: 252+ Atk Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 198-234 (46.6 - 55.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Defensive Spiritomb: 0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 114-134 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- 25.7% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Reuniclus can recover/cm on sucker punch or pp stall it, setup on their face and at +3 he is ready to 2hko Spiritomb.

    The comparison with CM Clefable in OU is not correct either. CM Clefable has no way to get past fire types while Reuniclus has the coverage to all beat of dark/steel/ghost types. CM Reuniclus user is choosing what he beats by selecting shadow ball/focus blast/signal beam as secondary coverage and design the rest of the team so that it is capable of handling the threats not covered by the respective coverage move. If you pick focus blast, obviously Reuniclus will have teammates equiped to check/counter Spiritomb. The one facing reuniclus has no way of telling what coverage Reuniclus is carrying, thus he has to account for all of these coverage. Clefable has zero ways to beat fire types with its CM set. Now you could run hp ground to kill Heatran, but that would be a lure. A lure is a bad coverage that does nothing outside of beating one-two specific pokemon, and its no different that reuni running hp fire for Escavalier.

    The banishment of premier pursuit trapper Honchkrow means the dreaded specs regen Future sight set is more potent than ever. Unlike other sets, this one does not have stay for consecutive turns to be effective, and therefore can mess up supposed counter measures for reuni. Lack of good taunt users which is a good way to hinder CM & TR sets makes it further difficult to handle Reuni.

    Yes, Reuni has hard counter in Escavalier(Even AV sets take a good chunk from LO Focus Blast though), but so did Genesect. Yes TR Reuni can not beat porygon or vaporeon, but to CM Reuniclus they nothing but setup bait. Three perfectly viable sets, of which beats offense, one beats stall and another one really problematic to balance teams; that's a versatile pokemon in my book. As much as I like our little psychotic Fetus, with all these considered I think we have to let Reuni go. My opinion is Ban.

    Edit: Thanks a lot @Spoovo The Pirate I never saw av Panda, so I did not know they existed. I always thought Pangoro already sports a fashionable suit, he doesnt need some ugly vest. Or are they being used to specifically stop Reuniclus & Cress? That must mean something...
    As you can tell, I do not have shitload of experience posting here. So why is my post being considered a spam?
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
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  6. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ^literally like
    this

    just remove the . from [.spoiler]potato[./spoiler]

    Also, not all Pangoro are fucked by TR Reuniclus.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Pangoro: 237-281 (71.6 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Pangoro Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 192 HP / 64 Def Reuniclus: 392-464 (95.8 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    Still damn impressive, but hey. This stops the post being spam.
     
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  7. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Not really.

    O.K. Reuniclus.
    110/75/85 defenses and 125 SpA. Magic Guard.

    First of all I don't see how banning Psychic types when you removed the things that kept them in check is a bad idea (in response to NaCl). Moreover they were broken before these things left anyway so I see nothing wrong with this process. Oh also Shaymin isn't a good way to deal with CM Reuniclus. It's easily 2KOd at +1 and has to farm a little with the 8PP Seed Flare to get 40% drops. It may work as a secondary answer but it's nothing like a real reliable check.

    So Reuniclus sets up on a whole bunch of shit in this tier.
    252 Atk Life Orb Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 114-136 (26.8 - 32%) -- 46.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 153-183 (36 - 43.1%) -- 96.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (This modest LO Nidoqueen needs two decent rolls to not get set up on, providing this is a 1v1 situation)
    252 Atk Flygon Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 142-168 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- 18.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Hitmonlee Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 166-198 (39.1 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (after recovering facing the first Knock it can just use this as setup bait)
    252 Atk Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 195-231 (45.9 - 54.4%) -- 54.7% chance to 2HKO (can stall that out)
    252+ SpA Slowking Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 136-162 (32 - 38.2%) -- 95.9% chance to 3HKO
    The list goes on. Hippo, Hitmontop, P2, Aroma, Vaporeon, Roarless Steelix, Tauntless Golbat, non-specs Meloetta, Registeel, Bronzong and so on.

    It sets up CMs on so many good and great Pokémon. So few things can hope to kill it once its rolling and you can't even Toxic it. Unless you're running CB Pangoro, Emboar, Sharpedo or Tyrantrum it's unlikely any of your physical attackers really get to it, but one of them can really help. As long as they don't come in on a Focus Blast or Psychic depending on what mon it is. That would be bad for them.
     
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  8. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    That kind of falls into the logic of allowing broken to check/counter broken as a reason to remain in any given tier. Obviously isn't not just banning Psychic mons either just because those two are now gone, it's just the ones with the potential to be broken, due to what they are given to their advantage of course.

    Now looking at Reuniclus this is what we get:

    - Special type attack with base 125 Special Attack, that means it has the power to hit like a truck when invested
    - 110/75/85 defenses with Psychic typing, not the best, but it at least makes it fat, bulky fat tank. Thankfully it has a recovery move in well Recover.
    - Magic Guard, no hazards nor toxic/burn status will help you whittle down it's HP what so ever. The obvious superior ability to Regen unless you build an entire team around helping its regen ability and it being a hit and runner with like Specs.
    - Slow speed, normally a negative, but in Reuniclus' case thanks to TR it actually becomes a positive.

    Reuniclus honestly has two very common sets as we've stated before, the CM (Calm Mind) set and the OTR (Offensive Trick Room for those of you who suck at abbreviations). Let's kind of take a look at both sets then, shall we?

    OTR:
    Reuniclus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SAtk
    IVs: 0 Att / 0 Spd
    Quiet Nature (+SAtk, -Spd)
    - Trick Room
    - Focus Blast
    - Psyshock / Psychic
    - Shadow Ball / Recover

    With this set you are gonna hit like a truck, and with no IVs in speed, and the Quiet nature you hit 58 speed. There is very little that will actually make TR work against you, except if you run into a 0 Speed IV Mega Camerupt, or an OTR Cofagrigus which becomes a dual of who wins the TR Speed ties, if you are both minimum speed possible. It also comes down to how you cover your supporting moves with either Psychic or Psyshock as well as Shadow Ball or as I've seen Recover just so it can keep on setting TR up as needed and not dying. Obviously the chance you lose to a lot of dark types is high, because you are banking on a 70 accuracy move, but the fact you'd get to go first in almost every single case is huge, because without a defensive investment, you are most likely guaranteed to die to what ever dark move is coming at you, but this one turn basically can remove the one threat that teams would have for Reuniclus (because you don't see teams made up of multiple dark types). At best Reuniclus hits, kills the dark type, and can keep trying to truck through teams, highly effective versus frail offensive teams, as well as stall teams because they almost can't do shit to Reuniclus thanks to its ability and pure power. At worst, Reuniclus misses, and the TR becomes 3 turns of support for the user's team, and you'll need to work out a different plan of attack, which is why Reuniclus usually pairs well with some slower types in the event this happens. At even worse, the 3 turns of TR support may benefit the opponent in the event of something like Pangoro or Escavalier.

    Set checks/counters: Escavalier for sure, you force it out and can take advantage of the 4 remaining turns of TR if it tries to set up. Otherwise you just force it out. A Registeel kill banks on 2 Focus Blasts hitting, in which it can stall out the TR, as well as do some damage if TR isn't up before possibly dying. Again 2 hits in a row is hard. Almost every Dark type if Focus Blast misses on your one shot of killing, unless of course you are Spoovo and have the AV Pangoro which would come in on TR and kill anyway with Knock Off. A few Dark types with Sucker Punch like Zoroark can cause massive damage, as well as Spiritomb. Most others would require you to try and break it with bulky types that don't have a weakness to any of its coverage moves (at least FB and Psychic). That kind of opens the way for the likes of Slowking, Hippowdon, otherwise you'd have to wait out the TR most times to hit it with a really strong attack that's sure to kill like Knock Off or any other strong Bug/Ghost/Dark moves.

    CM:
    Reuniclus (M) @ Kee Berry / Leftovers
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind
    - Psyshock
    - Focus Blast

    I'm surprised everyone's throwing some calcs out there with the Lefties set and all that, and no one has yet to mention Kee Berry. The CM Kee set literally becomes a stand alone win condition in most cases. Since you have Magic Guard, you can't be hurt by residual status, and while you invest into max bulk Physically, you have Calm Mind to shore up your Special sides. I mean the last 4 EVs can literally go into any of Sp.Att, Sp.Def, or Speed (it would speed creep the likes of no speed Slowking, Cofagrigus, Escavalier, if they don't drop their speeds). The best part of the Kee version of the set, is that as a last pokemon, you have to match it set up for set up or have a seriously strong enough wallbreaker before it can set up a few CMs or have a good Taunt/Encore user in reserve. The Kee glitch has been fixed, so that means you don't get the Defense boost if Knock Off is used on you, but that's only just Knock Off, force a use of a physical move, and boom instant +1 to the Defense.

    Obviously, Knock Off gets used, the set is messed up mostly, and powerful wallbreakers can rip through it with ease on the Physical side. Same for if it is sent out before being the last pokemon, and it can get Phazed by the opponent still, which potentially wastes the Kee Berry use. Obviously Focus Blast>Shadow Ball on this set, because let's face it, the only really huge threat without Shadow Ball is Doublade, which you can remove by supplying it with a Pokemon that obviously can counter Doublade. Other Psychic CM users give it a run for its money too, because they basically can enter a Crit War then, but with the added Bulk other Psyshock users would normally lose out. A few like Delphox and a CM Fire Blast can win out too.

    Check/Counters to this set: Basically any form of check or counter to this set comes in taking it out before it has any attempt to set up. That means you would need to either Taunt/Encore it early on (sending one of those out as soon as Reuniclus is on the field, and not hoping it is the OTR set unless you are named Whimsicott with Encore). Most any Knock Off users: Escavalier, Pangoro, Scrafty, Hitmonlee, Tornadus, basically get the Kee Berry down if your only way of winning is a form of CB pokemon, and even then things like Pangoro/Hitmonlee have to fear coming into a super effective killing move. As well it can just Recover on the those Knock Off turns as Weavile pointed out, lessening the damage for next turn, but still puts it at jeopardy if there are any stout physical breakers left. Tricking it a Choice Item works as well, leaving it mostly useless unless you can predict a Trick, and use an offensive move. Without recovery though, you are easy to take down. And finally, hitting it hard immediately from the Special side, with pokemon like Yanmega, the I don't condone CritDra being in this tier, and other powerful Specs pokemon with Bug, Ghost, or Dark moves before it can get a Calm Mind up.

    There are many opportunities to set up for Reuniclus in a match because of it's bulk, offensive presence, and superb ability. It takes advantage of most of the tiers bulkier Pokemon, and can even take advantage of the your normal power hitters that aren't Banded/Specs, and turn them into set up fodder. There are some options to obviously taking care of Reuniclus, but most of the ones I've encountered usually are in the form of having to 1-2 combo, heck sometimes even 1-2-3 hit combo it with supporting moves and Banded/Specs killers, that or relying on Focus Blast misses.
     
    Last edited: May 6, 2015
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  9. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    There are a lot of pretty good dark types usable in the tier that can check/counter both Cresselia and Reuniclus (even more reliable than MSharpedo/Honchkrow) that see little usage even if they are actually great mons (Drapion, Skunktank, Shiftry and Pangoro, only the last one recently had an increase in usage); I'm not saying that Cresselia or Reuniclus are healthy for the tier (Reuni maybe yes) but I surely don't think that banning without giving the time to the metagame to evolve is an healthier option. These bans will lead to a Nidoqueen suspect, than to a Doublade one and so on, but this maybe isn't a bad thing ...

    Well Shaymin can't beat a boosted Reuni/Cresselia (well you can if you are lucky), but neither they can try to setup on a Shaymin on a +0 situation (maybe Cresselia)
     
  10. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Shiftry is pretty shit even if it has defog access since skuntank is an overall better support mon since it takes out random t spikes just by switching in. Plus offensive shiftry needs sun to try and do anything worthwhile to teams. You might be able to get a few surprise sucker punch kills but it's not doing much. Meanwhile things like Flygon and Hitmontop just handle various threats better while providing the same thing.

    The other three are pretty sweet thanks to various factors, but besides Pangoro they're easy to cover; if you can repeatedly shut down an Escavalier you can beat both drapion and skuntank pretty easily with the same support. Lack of recovery seriously hurts Skuntank's overall usefulness anyway.

    I also don't see how this will lead to a nidoqueen ban, you can handle it just fine without super powerful psychic type pokemon dominating over it. Both reuniclus and especially cress are insane even with mega sharpedo and honchkrow in the tier. Of course it was harder to notice with more immediately threatening and broken dark types but these were still a problem. We have more checks now than ever here for Nido anyway, don't see where this slippery slope attitude is coming from.

    Not sure whether I'd actually drop the ban hammer on reuniclus since it's not as solid of a win condition as subcm cress is, but it's pretty stupid to deal with at times.
     
    Dominique-XLR likes this.
  11. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    Reuni has other roles besides being the win-con cm sweeper. It's trick room set can destroy offense. It has a dangerous specs regenerator set that is quite difficult to play around and takes advantage of both its bulk and power . Escavalier is the one and only pokemon I can think of who carries pursuit, and its not even stab pursuit. You could carry both porygon2 and spiritomb in stall and still lose to cm reuniclus. You could carry Zoro and Pangoro on offense and still lose to TR Reuniclus.

    Supposedly not being better wincon than Sub CM Cress is not a ground for 'Not Broken' by any means. For one thing, Cresselia itself is being suspected. Secondly, a pokemon does not have to be the best wincon in the tier to get the boot. Pokemons have different roles in competitive battling, we are not measuring Reuni by this one role alone.

    I wouldn't actually call Reuni worse wincon than Cress to begin with. Lets look at their advantages and disadvantages between their cm sets alone:

    Cresselia's Pros:
    1. Much more bulk.
    2. Ground immunity
    3. Gets Moonblast & Ice Beam

    Reuniclus's Pros:
    1. Immunity to stealth rocks and status except for sleep; can act as a status absorber
    2. Recover has more pp than moonlight
    3. Not as much of a taunt bait..
    4. Does not have to choose between substitute, moonlight and a second attacking move
    5. Nothing walls him after setup.
    6. Focus Blast to get past steel types with ease.
    7. Can actually hit things on the switch.

    The way I see it, they both are broken, and Reuni more than Cress.
     
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  12. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Should've posted on this earlier but exams and whatnot. But it's never too late I guess.

    So most of what I had wanted to say has been discussed already; Reuniclus is most threatening mon in LU. Whether it's the Offensive TR set with Life Orb, or the Calm Mind set with Kee berry/leftovers, Reuniclus has the ability to dismantle opposing teams single-handedly. Magic Guard is the perfect ability for it, allowing it ignore all sorts of status and passive damage, and letting it set up Calm Minds with impunity. Also it gets multiple opportunities to set up during a game, due to it's bulk, offensive presence and ability obviously, and it can use majority of the tier who aren't powerful attackers as it's setup-bait.

    The best way to deal with this monster would be to prevent it from setting up. Obviously it doesn't like Knock off, and there are a few powerful Dark types in the tier that abuses it (hello Pangoro). Offensive teams generally possess powerful hit-and-run attackers like Pangoro/Emboar/Tyrantrum who are able to deal with it in most cases, but they are caught off guard and destroyed by the OTR set. Defensive teams on the other hand are just setup fodder for CM Reuniclus, as Magic Giard makes it immune to all sorts of hazard/Status damage. Escavalier is probably the only mon that can force Reuniclus out safely, but the most common AV set is easy to wear down due to lack of recovery, so that's that. So in most cases Reuniclus is taking down 2-3 mons before it's going down, and you're gonna need powerful specs/banded mons to take it down reliably.
    I'm not gonna go into calcs because they've been posted already here; but overall i think Reuniclus is too good to be in LU, and it'd be better if this leaves.
     
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  13. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    A little bit more of a throw up for us to make a decision on, but a decision has been reached on Reuniclus.

    Overview:

    Reuinclus is everything you would want in a set up sweeper. It has great bulk with 110/75/85 defenses, an amazing ability that ignores passive damage from hazards and Toxic/Burn damage, 125 base special attack, and a strong recovery move. It has two very common sets that function slightly differently, being the Offensive Trick Room set as well as the KEE Reuniclus Defensive set up set. OTR is amazing at halting Offensive style teams who overwhelm with speed and power, turning their tactics against them. As well it is amazing at just breaking through many stall pokemon on defensive teams. However with a lack of Sp.Def set up, and no investment into Defense, it is vulnerable to many strong offensive presences on both sides, and may find a hard time executing this set against the breaker types in the tier. Add in that to maintain some longevity you may be forced to run Recover over a coverage move, or even go for Recover over Trick Room, which leaves you vulnerable to certain pokemon archetypes. It isn't perfect and finds a lot of fault in using it without a certain extent of support to help it along. Conversely, the Defensive set takes advantage of the bulk it was given, and finds set up opportunities among many weaker threats in the tier, to the point that Knock Off or having an overpowering Wallbreaker (or really really strong Dark or Bug type) is needed to break through it, and will need to be done early on. The fault in this set usually lies with losing Kee Berry leaving itself vulnerable to most Physical breaker, not being able to set up Calm Mind easily against Special breakers, running into Taunt, Haze, Trick, or Encore, as well as having to leave off a coverage move in Focus Blast, Psyshock, or Shadow Ball to actually run the set. However, when done right, it turns into a one sided win condition machine, that really only other set up pokemon can match up against, and even then still have a strong possibility losing against Reuinclus. It's natural offensive strength is nothing to scoff at either unboosted, and the ability to brush off both hazards and most average capable offensive pokemon leaves your options to Breakers or using some niche moves that only fit a few pokemon in the tier as well as team archetypes. Due to this nature, we have decided that Reuniclus will be Banned from ORAS LU.
     
    Dominique-XLR, E.T., Aurist and 2 others like this.
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