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Suspect Discussion: Weavile (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by NananaBatman, May 10, 2015.

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  1. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Weavile being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Weavile's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on wether Weavile should be banned (or not) from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Weavile in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
  2. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    This post will be more or less a c/p of my thoughts on it from the potential suspect thread.

    LO SD with Knock Off, Ice Shard and base 125 speed is pretty insane. It has a few checks in Mega Blast and Mega Swamp but both of them need to be at at least 70% to not die to +2 STAB, and considering one is a spinner and the other is used to check a lot of physical shit like Tini, they're going to be taking hits from several things throughout the game..so it's not that unlikely that they won't be at an optimal amount of HP to deal with Weavile. As far as counters, good luck. The only [common; not including niche mons like Quags/Poliwrath] counter I can think of is Mega Agg but it takes like 65% from +2 Low Kick. Things like Suicune and Arcanine are pretty situational. Suicune takes around 65% from +2 Knock Off and just has to hope for a Scald burn because the second Knock Off KOes. Arcanine is ok as long as no rocks are up and it's at a good amount of health. +1 Knock Off does 65% do Arcanine so it's very shaky if they are up. Its speed is excellent, and with the amount of switches it forces it's not going to have too much trouble SDing.
    I think the two best sets for it are probably 4 attacking with Knock Off/Ice Punch/Ice Shard/Low Kick and SD. You can swap out Low Kick if you want to Pursuit stuff like Victini but imo Low Kick is better since it shits on Aggron. For stall and balance SD works better because of how many switches it forces, on SD a lot of times Low Kick is left out which isn't that huge of an issue because it's mainly just for Aggron.

    I hope @Purpleseamonkey doesn't mind me reposting this but I think he brought up the most common anti-ban points so I'll post the points and my response to them.
    --------
    Anti-ban point: -Very understated how hard it is to set up an sd which is why band or 4 attacks lo are better sets against everything but full stall

    Response:
    It isn't super easy to set up an SD, I'll give you that, but it's not as hard as you're making it out to be mainly because of how many switches Weavile forces. Celebi, Rachi, Rose, Alakazam, non Scarf Victini/Chandy, things like that. So while I agree it's not extremely easy to set up an SD, I think it's far from impossible to the point where the SD set gets discounted.
    --------
    Anti-ban point: -If you're running lowkick over icy crash coverage becomes an issue because florges, Megapert, chesto, and herra become too hard to over power

    Response: Like I said, a lot of the time on SD Low Kick is left out because that really only hits MegaAgg iirc (+2 Knock Off OHKOes opposing Weavile). Low Kick is mainly seen on 4 attacking.
    --------

    Anti-ban point: -Minimal unpredictability/quite easy to play around with similar checks. Physically defensive mons with rocky helm can really rack up dmg passively while providing team support

    Response: It is predictable but I don't see that as a negative because it's so good at what it does, predictability isn't necessarily a negative. The only Rocky Helmet mons I can think of rn is like Arcanine (I guess Chesnaught too but Lefties is a lot better), but the thing is if Weavile is forcing you to switch to Arcanine or Swampert or whatever it means it's forcing switches which can give it a chance to SD. I posted this in my previous calc but Arcanine is pretty shaky because even only at +1 (Intimidate) it does around 68% which makes Arcanine not a super solid answer especially if rocks are up. It walls the shit out of 4 attacks though, same with most of its counters.
    --------

    Anti-ban point: -Agg cant be discounted as a counter especially with rest. If you stayed in to lowkick you are dead.

    Response: If Weavile is running SD without Low Kick then yea Rest Agg is a very solid counter but Rest isn't too common, most are like Rocks/EQ/Heavy Slam, last slot is a toss up between like Avalanche/Ice Punch, Roar/Dtail, status, and even Curse. Rest is very viable though.

    --------

    Anti-ban point: You need to set up to do real dmg and get the 1hkoes on offensive mons and 2hkos on bulky things which is why there a quite a lot of non specific checks. In addition to that it struggles to gain momentum because it's weak to all the fast uturn spam in the tier. While sd pressures stall and 4 attacks gives a lot of trouble to offense, weavile really struggles with the bulky offensive style of uu because mons like Toise, RotomH, Arcanine, Cloyster, herra, forre and Swampert are very splashable and can come in on it, live two hits and ohko in return. That being said weavile is able to threaten all styles of due to its high speed, setup capability, and coverage.

    Response: Well in general I find that SD is best vs balance and stall, SD can work vs offense but you usually run Sash if you're going to use SD vs offense. 4 attacks is excellent vs offense though. I agree that it needs to set up to sweep or decimate walls, but as I said it's really not that difficult because of how many switches it forces, and of course U-turn or Volt Switch support makes it that much easier.
    --------

    So yea those are my thoughts on Weavile, I think it would benefit the tier if it left so ban pls.
     
    Sakuya Izayoi likes this.
  3. MUMU

    MUMU Just a random Haxer nOOb

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    Adding pursuit to that list, which doesn't need explaining. Also Mega Blastoise and Mega Swampert very rarely carry rest and therefore is prone to being worn out over the course of the game, of course non mega just about everything is going to lose it's item and usually take a large chunk of damage as well, if not outright 2hko'd, and only a select few bulky pokemon can check it over the course of a match, and not all of them fit well on the more offensively inclined play styles, and it has solid neutral coverage to go with that speed and attack power. Ban
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015
    bugzinator likes this.
  4. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    Even though I agree with those valid points of the weavile ban set I kinda disagree with the fact that there are more legit threats than weavile and also there are other pokemon that can actually disable weavile such as defensive Arcanine and Rotom-H. I think we should focus on other pokemon to suspect *cough cough* suicune *cough cough*
     
  5. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Mushroom pretty much covered anything I'd be able to say. I'll basically regurgitate what I said in the suspects thread too, in that Weavile can work its way around nearly everything you can consider a 'counter' to it, with only Forretress and maybe Umbreon standing up to it; the latter only due to Foul Play. Everything else gets either Swords Danced on, or 2HKOed with the appropriate move.

    Much as I love Weavile, I don't think the bastard's healthy for the tier. Ban this mofo, please.
     
  6. nidomega

    nidomega Also known as [TR]smoked

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    Having read all of the posts above, I will like to share my opinion on weavile.
    I think it is unfair to consider and base most of the pro-ban argument on what weavile can achieve after a turn of set up (i.e. swords dance) as a lot of mons in uu can eat through teams after a single turn of set-up , for example, Lucario, Feraligatr, Infernape, Mega Absol, Slurpuff and Cloyster.
    I will agree though that it is one of the most threatening mons in uu and puts a lot of stress on teambuilding, with its blistering speed which is only bettered by a few mons that are not mega or scarfed (Crobat, Aerodectyl, Jolteon and Ninjask), amazing stabs with knock off which most mons will die for and one of the best offensive typing in ice, which hits dragon, flying and ground types for SE damage.
    It is a really anti-meta mon, being able to beat the likes of Salamance, Victini, Jirachi, Chandelure, Alakazam, mega Sceptile, Hydreigon and Nidoking. Heck I have even used scarf weavile to much success back when scarf terrakion and scarf heracross were everywhere, as with a moveset of icicle crash, knock off, low kick and Aerial ace it took care of pretty much all the scarfers and fast megas like mega zam and mega aerodectyl.
    In the end I am inclined towards ban.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2015
  7. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    My opinion on this...while it is by no means impossible to get up an SD, this thing really is frail, so one shouldn't expect to be at +2 all the time. Sash makes things easier, but then you'd like to have your LO boost. Can only agree to the points adressed above that show Weavile is really good atm, although I really think that if you just keep your answer at semi-decent health (bulky mon with some offensive presence/faster mon that lives Ice Shard) you're good to go because Weavile won't be tanking hits for you anytime soon. Well, there aren't too many of these answers though and you need to keep them healthy, so I would agree to a ban if offense wouldn't lose its only reliable Ice Shard user (especially for [scarfed?] Salamence and some other things, now that Mamo left too). I don't know if that says anything, but I thought it might be worth mentioning. Apart from that, it really threatens a large part of the meta and should leave.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2015
  8. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I wouldn't say Weavile's the only good Ice Shard user in the tier. Cloyster's perfectly viable, and doesn't have to be a Shell Smash set (though it's obviously the best by far), and hell, you can have Eviolite Piloswine there instead if you really want. It's not on the same level, but damn the thing's chunky, and also a brilliant rocks setter.

    252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 292-348 (88.2 - 105.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

    4 SpA Salamence Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Thick Fat Piloswine: 88-104 (21.7 - 25.7%) -- 0.9% chance to 4HKO

    +1 252+ Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Piloswine: 267-315 (66 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    (Using the Choice Scarf set for calcs)

    I'd be far from recommending Donphan from the job, but it can still cut down Mence if needed, and we probably shouldn't be looking at what happens to the tier if something gets banned, rather what is currently in the tier that deserves to be banned. If Salamence becomes unstoppable without Weavile in UU (which I doubt, with a lot of great checks available for it), then it'll inevitably get suspected too.
     
  9. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep

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    OK I've been waiting a long time for this suspect so I better make this post count!

    First off I don't really think SD is the reason that Weavile is a problem in UU. It can be kinda unstoppable (but limited duration) if you manage to pull it off but it's risky enough that I can't say it's a significant problem to deal with.

    I think what has made Weavile a constant problem in UU this gen is the incredibly limited ways to deal with its STABs. We all know how I feel about Knock Off but Weavile's Knock Off in particular has extremely few switch ins, and is a practically riskless move dealing significant damage to everything that isn't Mega Aggron and removing the item. Weavile's ability to remove the Leftovers of any possible defensive switch in like Florges, Empoleon, Arcanine, Crobat, Forretress, Tentacruel, Alomomola, Swampert, Rotom-H, Umbreon, etc means in almost every game Weavile does multiple jobs in 1 action, not just whittling down with its regular damage but providing additional support both to itself and its team mates through making many different defensive pokemon on the opposing side a lot easier to wear down and potentially removing key items of other significant pokemon. Its combination of Knock Off + Icicle Crash provides pretty incredible coverage allowing it to threaten a large majority of the meta and allows it to more efficiently cover other possible defensive or anti-offensive pokemon such as Chesnaught, Donphan, Salamence, Whimsicott, etc. Its other 2 moves generally depend on what you want it to do but generally it will run Ice Shard for some nice priority (and makes Weavile much harder for offensive teams to threaten) and Low Kick to get chip damage on its small number of actual answers. Pursuit and Swords Dance are both options, albeit risky ones, but certainly can pay off, Pursuit itself providing even more invaluable support to its team in tacking on damage on key pokemon.

    The truest and arguably only real answers to Weavile in the tier are certainly Mega Aggron and Mega Blastoise. Mega Aggron isn't taking any more of a third of its health from its Low Kick coverage even if Weavile predicts correctly, and Mega Blastoise takes roughly the same damage as that from both Knock Off and Low Kick. Both of these Pokemon are in themselves quite easy to wear down through other methods and even these require full health to be a guaranteed answer to Weavile, something difficult to ask of something without its own recovery. It is generally more likely that a Weavile will last longer than its few checks in a game, in my opinion largely because of the pressure on defensive pokemon in a matchup in this generation to check multiple different things in order to be able to function, and to be able to continue coming in and out of play. Weavile simply has to come in and threaten something and it has better than done its job, and it's under relatively little pressure to do so in most games thanks to its top tier speed and access to great STAB priority.

    Simply put, Weavile is a very easy to use pokemon that is very difficult to deal with - and the answers present in the tier are both limited in number and durability. It does many jobs in one set without having to predict or play well, and is heavy pressure on teambuilding in a tier where you have to account for a very large number of threats. Weavile is an overwhelming offensive force in UU that should be banned.
     
  10. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Well this discussion died.

    Weavile doesn't do a lot of things, but it excels at 1: Using its very powerful stabs. Weavile's speed and attack help it a lot in this job, allowing it to outspeed a vast portion of the tier. Knock off is spammabledotmove, allowing it to cripple most checks/counters. Speaking of answers to weavile, there is a signficant lack of them in the tier, and thus weavile puts a massive strain on teambuilding. It does have some other good moves, but tbh most times you'll be spamming knock off and crippling your opponent's team.

    All in all, weavile's speed, power and lack of reliable answers make it an unhealthy force in the UU metagame. For these reasons, it will be Banned from ORAS UU.
     
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