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[Monotype] Sablenite Suspect

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by Raducan, May 15, 2015.

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  1. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Discuss the effects of Mega Sableye on the Monotype metagame and the possibility of banning it. Post intelligently based off of experience in the metagame. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions. i.e. if you play Monotype at all, then post.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Mega Sableye as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame, otherwise it will go to a vote. Happy suspecting.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2015
    Rabidragon, Joyverse, Atli and 3 others like this.
  2. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this nothing into gengar

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    Ah nice, i've been waiting for this one

    Ever since ORAS got here, Sablenite was by far the biggest addition to both Dark and Ghost teams. It almost completely stops fighting mono from winning vs dark, and is a very good knock off absorber when it's in ghost type.

    Now looking at it from an individual pokemon's perspective, Mega Sableye only has 1 weakness, which is fairy (and scrappy fighting moves), which leaves super effectives moves for Mega Lopunny in normal, altaria in dragon, and the handful of fairy pokemons in fairy mono. Now here's the problem: Clefable, Sylveon, Slurpuff, florges/aromatisse, can only be used in 1 type. Klefki is almost useless vs sableye, Azumarril doesnt appreciate a burn, and diancie/whimsicott have a secondary typing that is average. Togekiss is a very good pokemon to stop it as long as it has nasty plot, and flying is a good type in general.

    Sableye's ability, prankster, allows it to make use of willowisp to cripple some mons before it megas, which is crucial for it AND with little opportunity cost of delaying mega evolving, since it has prankster recover and a huge plethora of mons it can freely switch in on.

    Moving on, looking at what beats mega sableye, we see that not all types actually have an answer for sableye, and when that type actually has something (mega gardevoir for psy, mega altaria for dragon, talonflame/charizard, etc...) they most of the time only have very few answers, so a lot of pressure is put on those pokes, and the sableye user can be almost confident that most of the time, they only need mega sableye as their win condition.

    Clearly, with enough luck or good teambuilding, many teams can beat mega sableye (cm keldeo for fighting, fire types who dont care about burns, etc), but it definitely puts a lot of pressure on people facing it, since it does its job so well, has two great abilities in each form, magic bounce can add a hazard control for ghosts who otherwise only have drifblim as defogger.

    The thing has incredible bulk and a great ability that puts a stop on so many support/hazard mons like skarmory, ferrothorn, swampert, hippo, etc , and very few mons are actually capable of doing enough damage to beat it without a super effective move, that of course if they arent burnt or sableye didnt already set up a (possibly) prankster calm mind.
    I think sablenite is a little bit too much for monotype and it should get banned.
     
    E.T., Edna and Troller like this.
  3. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Ah finaly, been asking for it for a long time :3

    Sableye is just too much for Monotype for the following reasons:

    - The CM set+Willow ( Sball/Dark pulse) can win nearly against anything that is not Fairy, Charizard , Scrafty or others CM users if it sets up first. That being said, it becomes a powerfull sweeper with excellent bulk, reliable recovery, and that can't be taunted due to Magic Bounce.

    - It neutralizes so many potent mons ( Skarmory, Chansey, Ferrothorn, Rotom, and many others) and can also abuse by pre form the Prankster ability.
    All the hazard games become centralized around it, especialy in Monoghost who has no viable spinner/defogger and it's a pain to wear it down.
    One of the best type in monosteel can't win unless your Heatran burns with Lava plume and that becomes hax reliant.

    - It makes some types completely useless, Monotype is already unbalanced due to some types being much stronger than others, and Sableye only make them worst.

    Having abused myself Sableye, I know how much it is broken for the Monotype metagame, and therefore I think it should be banned
     
  4. E.T.

    E.T. METAMORPHOSIS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Mega Sableye can be very difficult for certain types to stop. First, I want to mention what is, in my opinion, the best set.

    Sableye (F) @ Sablenite
    Trait: Prankster (Magic Bounce for Mega)
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Calm Mind
    - Dark Pulse

    Magic Bounce prevents it from being phased by Whirlwind and Roar, and it also protects it from direct status moves like Toxic, WoW, and Taunt. Mega Sableye also allows its team to be in full control of hazards in most match-ups since Mega Sableye can freely switch in on most hazard setters and start setting up if it wants. Many types lack Fairy STAB or moves like Scald and Lava Plume which can give Mega Sableye many chances to setup in most match-ups because the opposing team simply can’t pressure it enough to stop it. The best that most types can do is to try to nuke it with wall breakers. However, this can be easier said than done since it has the ability to burn physical attackers. Special attackers have an easier time if it doesn't have CM boosts yet, but some Nasty Plot users have the ability to beat it anyway.

    I compiled a list of Pokemon for each type that shouldn't have a problem beating Mega Sableye.
    Normal-Mega Lopunny, Exploud, Mega Audino
    Fighting-Keldeo (CM), Heracross (Guts CB), Infernape (NP), Scrafty, Emboar, Pangoro
    Grass-Whimsicott, Shaymin, Serperior
    Ice-
    Fire-Usually has less trouble since they can’t be burned.
    Psychic-Mega Gardevoir, Cresselia
    Ghost- Spiritomb
    Dark-Mega Absol, Houndoom/Mega Houndoom, Scrafty, Spiritomb, Pangoro
    Fairy- Several things.
    Steel-
    Water-Keldeo (CM), Manaphy, Azumarill, Suicune, Mega Gyarados (Rest Talk)
    Poison-
    Bug- Volcarona, Heracross (Guts CB)
    Rock- Diancie
    Ground-Landorus-I
    Flying- Charizard-X , Talonflame (beware of Foul Play for both), Togekiss, Thundurus-I/T , Landorus-I, Mega Altaria, Mega Gyarados (Rest Talk)
    Dragon- Mega Altaria
    Electric- Thundurus-I/T

    From what I can see, Fairy, Fire, Dark, Water and Flying shouldn't have much trouble against Mega Sableye, but the other types are pretty limited in regards to checks and counters if they even have any.

    I think that Mega Sableye’s ability to allow its team to control hazards combined with its role as a solid win condition against most types due to the limited checks and counters of most types makes Mega Sableye an unhealthy presence in the Monotype tier. Mega Sableye should be banned.
     
  5. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Come to think of it, suspecting Lord Eye wasn't a bad eye-dea.
    The usual set of Mega Sableye
    -Calm Mind
    -Wisp
    -Recover
    -Sball/Dark Pulse
    .. is usually checked by only a bunch of pokémon. Unless you don't run Dazzling Gleam, Sp.Def BU Shed Shell Scrafty in Dark/Fighting destroys it slowly with Knock Offs.
    That was though very specific. If you see from an overall approach very few types have the tools to take it on 1v1.
    Normal-Has Mega Audino with CM Dazzling Gleam, Scrappy Specs Boomburst Exploud, and finally Mega Lop who however couldn't risk a burn.
    Water-hmm.. Banded/Bdrum Azu can deal with it but can't still risk a burn. Mega Gyara checks Mega Eyes with a taunt set and neither Pulse/Ball do anything much. However here too Mega Gyara can't risk a burn.
    Fire- Nasty Plot LO Infernape, Ada Zard X with Flare Blitz and possibly LO Blue Flare Victini are reliable in taking Sab down. NP Mega Houndoom.
    Ghost-We have Flash Fire Chandelure which can come in on a WoW and kill Sab with Fire Blast/overheat considering it hasn't reached 3+ stages in Sp.def. LO Gengar can KO too. And Mega Eye itself can win against Mega Eye under certain conditions.
    Dark-Nasty Plot Mega Houndoom can switch in, setup and kill in front of Mega Sab without incurring high amounts of damage. DM Hydreigon(non-gleam),If Mega Absol has reached +2 then Sab gets 1-2HKOd from Play Rough without worrying of burn due Magic Bounce.
    Steel- Uh?? Mega Metagross 2HKOs Mega Sab (considering Burn miss) that's like the only thing capable aside from a gimmicky WoW Tran that nets a Flash Fire and can proceed to KO.
    Flying- Zard X, Taunt Mega Gyara, NP Togekiss.
    Fighting- Specs and CM Keldeo both stand an equal chance against it, Sp.def Scrafty. (Dazzling Gleam though lel!)
    Fairy- Several threats.
    Electric-Mega Ampharos, Mega Manectric, NP LO Raichu (If mega eye has already boosted a bit there is no chance though)
    Grass-Whimsicott comes as a welcome surprise but the 2ndary type is dealt really fast by most other teams members.
    Ground-Mega Camerupt comes handy too in this case but it too is handled pretty fast by Mega Sab teammates. LO Nidoking and LO Lando-I (already setup Mega Eye though)
    Psychic-Gardevoir,Mega Gardevoir.
    Poison-LO Nidoking,LO Gengar however both don't stand up to Sab at 3+ stages..
    Rock-only Mega Diancie IMO (untested)
    Dragon-Mega Altaria, Specs Dragalge.
    Any types I missed-Meh....
    Sab has really good 50/125/115 Bulk which is further augmented by Calm Mind. Very few types overall have a capable number of threats that can withstand the pressure. It is a win-con/wall/setup sweeper/hazard control/.. and multiple other roles in its team and it handles all it's roles quite well.
    While initially I was undecided about Mega Sab, after reading through the previous posts I have decided that Sab should be BANNED.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2015
  6. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    Alright, that hilarious @Joyverse bashing in Tournament channel has brought me here. So, here we go...

    Unfortunately, I can not be as adamant as you guys on the topic of Mega Eye's banishment from Monotype. I'm not saying Mega Eye isn't ban worthy in monotype, but a few points have been overstated so far in my opinion. Call it playing Devil's Advocate if you like.

    First of all, Mega Eye does not have 'End all, be all' typing. Yes, he has 1 weakness and 2 immunities. But how many resistance does he have? One, the rather uncommon poison type. Now that would be great if he had the bulk of Cresselia for example. But he does not. 50/125/115 is certainly very good bulk, but it has been hugely overstated so far. His offensive capabilities are pretty abysmall without boost, and there are some things that he can not break through even at +6. Lack of lefties and poor speed also means he has to recover spam way too many times, potentially either losing pp or be haxed (crited and what not) in the process.

    +6 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    Another thing I'd like to point out is that, Mega Eye has good bulk, magic bounce and prankstar will-o-wisp only for one turn. Before and after that, he has to choose one of them. I'd argue hazards are very very matchup reliant in monotype to begin with, but even then Mega Eye user is forced to use him as a lead to stop the hazards; something that can be easily taken advantage of.

    Another thing, Mega Eye does not make any type completely useless. That's straight up overstatement. If Joyverse's list proves anything, its that every type has decent way past it. In fact I'm going to use his threat-list to point a few things out. My edits are written in Blue (Look into the spoiler inside the quote) .


    Imo, there are mons in this meta who can straight 6-0 3 types, and yet we are okay with them. I can not see Sableye making that level of matchup issue. Only thing I would blame Mega eye of is asking for constant Offensive pressure. The teams Mega Eye is usable in, will badly miss its presence if it were banned. Monotype will always have matchup issue, now its a matter of how much we are willing to accept it. For now, I'm inclined towards No Ban. Feel free to prove me wrong tho.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
  7. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    First off, I'ld like to know what Porygon-2 does in return? Also it's 2hko if it's burned, so eh, you're relying on discharge/ice beam freeze/para to try accomplish.. em nothing?
    Unless Cresse, it doesn't have Knock off weakness, it cannot be statused by toxic willow etc, it can't be taunted. Once the set up begins, your only chance is move like Scald/Lava plume burning etc, thing that a lot of types don't have.
     
  8. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    That was just to show Sableye's lack of power, even at +6. That's all it really was, I never claimed Porygon2 beats him lol. I edited a Joyverse's post in Blue letters to suggesting how each type potentially can/may handle Mega Eye.

    Also this is sort or irrelevant I suppose, but one mon straight up beating a whole type is not something exclusive to Mega Eye either. For example, I do not know of a single pokemon in Mono Ground that can beat Mega Gyarados. There's also Talonflame who is even more problematic to like 3 or 4 types. When it comes to banning mons, I do not think we are supposed to have the exact same mindset like the one we have in standard tiers (OU/UU?LU etc). This is an inherent problem in Monotype itself really. The types themselves aren't balanced to begin with.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2015
  9. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    @Dominique-XLR

    I don't understand how that shows a lack of power when P2 is one of the bulkiest pokemon in the game, AND you used a specially defensive set. Just because other pokemon have incredible match ups against other types and they haven't been banned (yet?) doesn't mean Sab shouldn't. Sure every type has a way to manage Sab, but most are either sub optimal sets or just bad overall.

    Zard Y is banned, sticking Lum on things and getting into set up wars isn't beating Sab. Sab honestly wins all of them if you don't get critted cause burn damage. Phazing isn't beating Sab. Also, an 8 pp move that may or may not get the benefit of RNG isn't a particularly good strategy either. PP stalling also isn't a reliable strategy. NP on either Thundurus isn't really good. It works better on I but they aren't optimal. CM Lando is garbage in monotype. RP is exponentially better. Zygarde is terrible on mono drag.

    Basically, the thing is, Mega Sab just downright beats far too many types. It cripples all physical attackers and often times remains in good enough health to deal with other threats later. Most types are limited to a few pokemon that stand a fighting chance against Sab, and to be completely honest, I don't even think the CM set is Sabs best set,and if you are running CM, I believe the best two coverage options are Shadow Ball and Snarl. Snarl has shit damage output but Sabs longevity increases exponentially because of it. It actually does flip match ups unlike SD Lum. Between CM and the defensive sets with Snarl, Sab holds far too much of the meta in check. Fairies, a good amount of Fire mons, (Mega) Doom (let's be honest, not a great mega), Mega Gyara (which is iffy already) and Acid Spray users (which can't really recover) are the best ways to handle it. CM Sab has a few more answers than Defensive sets with Snarl and Foul Play, but either way Sab beats far too many pokemon in monotype.
     
  10. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    Again, I never claimed that Porygon2 beats Mega Eye My point is it needs a whole lot of setup, to actually break sweep. I mean he needs +3/+4 to ohko most mons, which is often a little too much. This also means he has to recover spam, a lot. Thus the pp stalling issue occurs. Depending on RNG is not something I actually meant as an argument against Sableye ban, but to show how things work out in practical scenario. This is obviously a desperate measure to handle him, I guess I shouldn't have focused on it right at the beginning of my post.

    Sticking lum on to things are easy fix to Sableye that practically any team can use. I fail to see why this is bad. Even at +2 there are very few mons that mega eye can actually ohko. Because of that Mega eye is always forced to use will-o-wisp, and lum ensures that Mega eye loses that match-up, plain and simple. For the same reason, I do not understand why getting in setup war is bad, when you can easily boost faster and muscle through.

    Mega Gyarados is far from iffy, its a really good mon. It beats a lot of stuff that provide defensive backbone via ability. That aside, once Sableye goes mega, its a almost a guaranteed victory for Gyara. Ok, Zygarde is bad in dragon monotype. Well, I just showed what can potentially beat Mega Eye. Does Mono Dragon really need to depend on Zygarde to beat Mega eye? It's pretty common strategy in monotype to tailor one pokemon of your team to get rid of one specific problematic mon. If its a good mon, if its dangerous for your team, you take account for it. I do not see the problem with that. NP Thundurus isn't necessary in mono flying, but its an option. In mono Electric on the other hand, you have so many similar mons that you can easily afford to run NP Thundurus. I'm not going to comment on CM Lando-I, but I've found him useful in mono ground, breaking through things like Gyarados, Mew etc that rest of the mono ground team has hard time with. You are right about snarl though.

    Defensive sets do not boost their special defense. Special attackers, specially the ones who can boost can go past him without too much trouble. Metal burst is obviously dangerous, but once scouted, its not hard to play around.

    Lets not pretend that Mega Eye retain 50/125/115 bulk, prankster and magic bounce through out the match. I'm just repeating myself at this point, but he doesn't get the best of both world more than one turn in the match. Base form Sableye can not take hits at all. He has to tank a hit to burn first, then another before he can actually recover. As I have shown, a whole lot of stuff can break through mega eye, from all 18 types. Yes, he has distinct advantage against specific monos, but that's the very nature of the tier.

    Most of the mons mentioned by both me and Joyverse are far from gimmicky. You can brush them aside all you want, but the fact remains the same, There are completely viable ways available from all monotypes to get past Mega Sableye. "I'm forced to run X mon to not be beaten by Y mon" this kind of logic flies very well in standard meta, but not in monotype. Often times that X mon is the only one who can do something against Y mon, and monotype has always been like that. Type damage reducing berry, lure move that you would never use other wise, focus sash, lum/chesto etc has always been an integral part of Monotype. I do not see the problem with adapting little bit.

    I'll probably get bashed a lot for saying this and this is admittedly, my weakest argument; but I feel I have to mention that neither mono ghost or mono dark are that good. Sableye's presence makes them much more usable. At the same time, Mega eye causing troubles for Mono Steel & Mono Psychic is not a bad thing either. At this moment, Steel is quite dominant, and Psychic continues to be one of the strongest monos. Something like Sableye making their life harder is a positive thing in my book.

    The way I see it, we have enough measures to handle it. So, keep him.
     
  11. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    I agree pretty much with this, i think as well calm mind sets are not the best megaeye set. Like demostrated for Dominique-XLR, Megaeye lacks power, and usually needs at least 3 calm minds in his pocket to have some offensive presence (I think the true purpose of calm mind is mainly boost its defenses, while the spe.attack boost is just a bonus)

    But the true job of megaeye, which I think pretty much bring it over the edge, is Hazard Control/status spreader (a sort of Deoxys-D+espeon fusion). So when dealing with megasableye, you are not asking yourself only how to beat it, but you need ask yourself too: "my switch-in will be crippled for w-o-w or knock off? will it start calm minding? can i take the risk to put stealth rocks on the opponent side? will my opponent switch into megaeye if I use toxic again other mon?" Megasableye can do all these jobs, and he can do them extremely well.
    So yeah, the ability Magic Bounce alone is a bless to all pokemon which have it... in a super bulky mon like mega sableye, it sort of can define a game.

    From experience, i could tell normal stall, char-x (must be wary of the rare foul play), mega absol and most fairies (megadiancie, (mega)gardevoir, megaaltaria, azumarill) are reliable ways to take on megaeye. Other strong special attackers are easily handled by sp.def behemots like tyranitar, jellicent, etc. So ghost, steel, electric, grass, ground and poison have no way to take into a well played mega sableye.


    tl:dr: set-up sets are bad on megaeye, what makes it over the edge is the support it bring to its team. So still unsure if im pro or anti-ban, but im leading a bit for ban.

    Pls, stop discussing lum berry, specially when megaeye use knock off in many sets.
    Stop with megahoundoom talk too, no one uses it.
     
  12. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    I hope we are not planning on banning things that are just good at what they does. Anyway, there are a few things I disagree with Rawr!'s post. I'll discuss them point by point.

    I don't understand how Sable is even slightly similar to Deo-D, other than bulk. Maybe you mistyped? Deo-D is also way bulkier than Sable-M( 50/160/160 bulk as opposed to 50/125/115 bulk. Also Deo-D was completely unstoppable, there was absolutely no way to stop it from setting up hazards. Just wanted to point this out, that's all.

    You described is a versatile mon, and something that is neither exclusive to Sable nor he is the best one at this. In fact, there's one thing I can always be assured, Sable-M won't be hitting hard on the switchin, allowing even relatively frail mons to come in safely on neutral attacks.
    Magic Bounce is good, no argument about that. But I do not think Sable's support towards his team is as valuable in monotype as it is in standard play. Hazards are rather match-up reliant in mono, and all of mono ghost can spin block. When we are discussing a mon's support capability, its only fair that we take account of how he influences the mono teams he is usable in. On that regard, I think anyone would agree that both Mono Ghost and Dark are far from strong, even with Sable-M's presence. That is not to say Sable-M is not a good mon, its a great mon. But being good at its job doesn't necessarily mean it's broken. Is it unstoppable? I don't think so.
    Magic Bouncer with ghost type and good bulk did define OU meta for a while. Then people realized there are so many strong wall breakers around, and Sable falls to them in no time.

    First of all Mega Zard X can actually live a foul play when he is at +1. But it's highly unlikely that Zard X user will not know the opposing Sable's set, given that Sable comes in and out the whole game while Zard usually starts setting up late into the game; so surprise factor is rather unlikely. Also Zard X doesn't need a single boost to 2hko Mega Sable. Sable has small hp stat, so recoil won't be an issue either.
    +1 0 Atk Mega Sableye Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Charizard X: 234-276 (78.7 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 178-210 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    If Mega Eye isn't running calm mind, he is just food for Venomoth. How is poison losing to him then? There's also Nidos, Acid Spray Tenta etc. Grass has Shaymin, and everyone knows what she does. Mega Eye isn't winning that battle. NP Celebi can also come out on top with giga drain healing. Sable-M can not possibly keep up with Serperior. Whimsi can beat him as well. How is he beating CM Raikou in mono Electric? Ground, again has Landorus, who 2hkos without any cm boost. Against Ghost, its either a mirror matchup, or a bad matchup to begin with. Even then there's Chandelure, who can cleanly 2hko Sable. Steel will always run Tran, at which point Sable can't even spam Will-o-Wisp.

    Saying other strong special attackers are easily handled by etc etc is just straight up generalization. You cant really expect T-tar to handle the likes of Landorus or Jelly to handle Raikou, and these two are from the aforementioned types who supposedly has no way of beating mega Sable. Also, his teammates might as well be able to do supernatural feat, why can't the same be applied to Sable's opposing team as well?

    Oh Wow. Let's just forget the sheer existence of every item other megastones, because Sable can carry knock off right? Also the whole point of lum is getting one free turn without getting burnt. If the setup sweeper is coming into the battle for the first time, there's no way Sable's stopping that.

    On the Mega Doom statement, Usage =/ Viability. Just because most people do not use it, it doesn't mean no one 'can' use it. It doesn't mean it's bad either. Is it outclassed by anything else? I don't think so. Mega Doom has always been sort of antimeta. What's stopping a Mono fire team from running a manual sun team? Will Doom not be the centerpiece of those teams?
     
  13. E.T.

    E.T. METAMORPHOSIS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I don't really get the point of the first part of this paragraph. Acid Spray Tenta (if this is actually a viable thing), Shaymin, NP Celebi, Contrary Serperior, and Whimsicott should all be able to beat Sableye regardless of whether it has calm mind or not unless it has been given several turns to setup before they enter. The other Pokemon you listed can certainly check a utility set though.

    However, against a CM set, the Nidos, Raikou, and Landorus (without CM) can actually lose if they can't switch in before Sableye gets one or two boosts. Chandelure is weak to rocks which limits the number of times it can switch in, it is weak to both of Sableye's STABs, and specs set loses if Sableye has at least one boost. Heatran really only threatens the CM set if it manages to switch into a WoW unless it is a weird offensive set which doesn't show up on Steel very often.

    In my opinion, Mega Sableye's ability to be a solid win condition with Calm Mind while simultaneously being able to support the team with Magic Bounce in many match-ups is what makes it too good at what it does. No, Mega Sableye is not "unstoppable," but that doesn't mean it isn't still broken. From my analysis, Ice, Ghost, Steel, Poison, Rock, Ground, Dragon, and Electric (8 out of 18 types) either have only one viable and reliable Pokemon to stop Mega Sableye or they don't have anything, and they're up the creek without a paddle.
     
  14. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    The point was he said cm isn't the best set, and then went on to say those monotypes has no way of beating a well played Mega Eye. Then I showed how those monos can deal with him. I guess that wasn't necessary to be re-stated, my bad.

    I'm not gonna repeat those 8 types deal with them, and I'm sorry but most of them are not unviable/unreliable like you claim. Please read the previous posts/list me and Joyverse have provided. How about take a scarfed flying type and tell me how bug/fighting/grass types can have reliable answers? Can Gastro in mono ground actually deal with Keldeo reliably, or does it fear specs sacred sword? When you are stuck in one type while making a team, the term 'handling reliably' doesn't mean much. You can not see things in the same light as you would in standard metas. Monotype is vastly different. If 2 gens of playing montype (albeit not that seriously before) has taught me something, is that you can not have reliable answer to all the mons. Monotype is bound to be largely matchup reliant, thats the very nature of the meta. You always have to handle something via shaky checks. Hell, how many viable mon can you cover in a OU team really, regardless of how great the team is? Even the best tour winning/ladder peaking team will have at least one major weakness.

    At this point, you guys are mostly brushing off the answers saying X is bad, Y is unviable, no one uses Z. I have to say you guys are not looking to adapt to the threat as much as just get rid of it. I believe bans should be absolutely minimal, and the perfect all viable metagame you guys seem to be looking for can not possibly exist.

    Btw, acid spray tenta has been a legit set in OU for a while now. It reliably beat both spin blockers, specially Sable-M.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
  15. E.T.

    E.T. METAMORPHOSIS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I don't think it's fair to compare Mega Sableye to a scarf user or a Pokemon who gives a few types a lot of trouble because none of these cause major problems for as many types as Mega Sableye does. Choice Scarf is an excellent item in Monotype, and it can possibly facilitate a sweep if you have the type advantage, but realistically, this probably only threatens to sweep 2 or 3 types since you probably won't have more type advantages than that. As for the importance of being able to handle Mega Sableye with viable Pokemon, you want to be able to do well against the other 16 types that Sableye doesn't show up on as well. For example, Acid Spray Tentacruel may help Poison deal with Mega Sableye, but what is its usefulness outside of this? Most other CM users are Psychic types, so it won't help there. It could help with things like Clefable and Mega Audino, but Poison doesn't really need help with those anyway. As far as spin blockers go, Spiritomb and Trevenant/Gorgeist are the only things it helps you with because you'd probably be better off using Scald/Toxic/Knock Off in other cases, and even then, Toxic can deal with these Pokemon too unless they have Rest. Unless I'm missing something, Acid Spray Tenta really isn't that viable for Poison. Anyway, getting back on topic, Acid Spray Tenta and random Lum Berry users might help you stop Mega Sableye, but isn't that a sign that Mega Sableye is hindering team building if you have to resort to such strategies solely for stopping it?

    In regards to additional Pokemon you and Joyverse mentioned:
    --Mega Metagross having to rely on a WoW miss means that it still loses 85% of the time (assuming MM hits both times). NP Lucario could work, but I don't think it's used very often and it is usually outclassed by the physical sets.
    --Mega Manetric and Mega Ampharos really only work if Mega Sableye doesn't have CMs yet. They can apply pressure if it hasn't setup yet, yes, but if it is healthy and gets a +1 as they switch in, they will probably be setup bait. NP Raichu is bad, and you should use Thundurus if you want an Electric NP user. Acid Spray Eelectross is an option. Specs Magnezone does hit hard, but I think most are scarfed and it is probably inferior to scarf overall. Regardless, it would need Thunderbolt because Flash Cannon doesn't even 2HKO anymore after +1.
    --Mega Camerupt is something that I considered, and it might work, but I don't see it used as Ground's Mega very often, and Mega Sableye can still win if it CMs on the switch since it can outspeed and grab another CM before Camel even gets to attack (depending on Camel's nature and speed). From there it can PP stall Fire Blast and continue setting up. SD Gliscor works if you can find a way to fit it on a team. Coil Zygarde is an interesting option that I don't think is used very often, but it does work.
    --Gengar doesn't even 2HKO after Mega Sableye gets to +1, and it is OHKO'd by Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball in return. I guess you could try to Destiny Bond, but that also creates mind games. NP Mismagius only works if it can somehow get in without Mega Sableye boosting, but Mismagius isn't very common thanks to Gengar. Cofagrigus just loses because it's slower. If SR are up, Mega Sableye doesn't even need boosts to get the 2HKO most of the time.
    --I will concede that specs Dragalge could work. It probably has to run Dragon Pulse though to reliably 2HKO after a +1 because Draco Meteor can be stalled out with Recover if Mega Sableye has a boost. Too bad Dragalge is too slow to actually be good on most Poison and Dragon teams.

    So out of Ice, Ghost, Steel, Poison, Rock, Ground, Dragon, and Electric--Electric, Ground, and Dragon look slightly better, but still not good, while Ice, Ghost, Steel, Poison, and Rock will probably still struggle. Psychic and Bug are a couple of other types that I didn't mention in my last post. Psychic does have CB Victini that can break Mega Sableye, but other than Gardevoir/Mega Gardevoir, I don't think it has anything that can reliably win after it gets a +1 because Dazzling Gleam coverage doesn't do enough once it starts setting up. Bug has Volcarona and CB Guts Heracross (although that's probably inferior to scarf in most cases), but that's about it.

     
  16. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    @E.T. regarding above post of yours:

    You are right, it is unfair to compare a scarfed mon threatening a 6-0 or asking for a sack every time it comes in with a mon who has to find the window to to setup in a very offensive meta like Monotype. Sableye represents no where near the same instant threat as those scarfed mons. I've mentioned lum on sd mons because its a quick and easy fix to Sable-M issue, it's far from a extreme measure to stop a good mon.

    If the existence of both Victini and Gardevoir does not convince you that Psychics does not have problem with Sable-M, I don't know what to tell you A ghost/dark mon has such great type advantage over psychic types, 2 solid answers are more than I'd expect.
    Look at this calc
    252 SpA Gardevoir Moonblast vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 180-212 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Thats Scarf Garde. Oh, and trace=magic bounce returns the in coming will-o-wisp.

    Dragon has Mega Altaria, who is basically a must because of the obnoxious Dragon vs Dragon matchup. Lum DD kind of stuff is everywhere, specially on Dragonite, who has a chance to 2hko even without boost. There's just so much pressure from Mono Drag. For example if you find your Sable at +1 Sp Def and below 62% health, he isn't going to live a specs latios Draco.

    You have probably forgotten that rocks get Diancie, which shouldn't even need calcs.

    Joyverse's list missed both bug and Ice types. Interesting thing about monobug is that, their trademark strategy of speed + sd/sub passing to Mega Cross completely wrecks Mega Sable. Mega Pinsir does upto 88% at +4, through burn. Hell, even Mega Scizor does upto 85% at +6 through burn with bug bite, plus he can also roost off the damage done to him. CB Escavalier can come in on calm mind, outspeed and 2hko before sable-M can recover. Funny thing is, you don't have to do that. In a CM war, Volcarona will always win against Sable-M due to being downright powerful and burn chance.
    +6 252+ SpA Volcarona Fire Blast vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +6 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. +6 96 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 73-87 (21.7 - 25.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 4HKO

    I haven't tried Mono Ice this gen, but Specs Glaceon is probably one of the best hail abusers who cleanly 2hkos with Blizzard at +1 sp def. Kyurem hits equally hard. Again, Lum Cloyster is not unviable, and can make short work of Sable in the ideal situation. Weavile lives one hit from +6 Sable-M, and 2hko through burn if it's the SD variant If all else fails, Glailie can always go kaboom.
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Glaceon Blizzard vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage

    I admit, acid spray Tenta isn't exactly all that useful. But that's just one move-slot change. That can't be too much of a big deal. Toxic can be fit in any of your other 5 mons, and knock off isn't doing much to anything. Also in the same vein as Mono Bug, there will be a CM war with Venomoth, which Sableye will lose. Why? Because Venomoth will get to +6, baton pass to Nidoking, who will proceed to 2hko from there. Even if Sable-M is carrying Snarl, there's a high chance of 2hko.
    +6 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. +6 248 HP / 0 SpD Venomoth: 96-114 (27.9 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    +6 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 165-196 (54.2 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +5 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 144-172 (47.3 - 56.5%) -- 82.8% chance to 2HKO
    +4 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoking Earth Power vs. +6 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 125-148 (41.1 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    +6 4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. +6 0 HP / 0 SpD Nidoking: 96-114 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 87.6% chance to 3HKO
    Now you could say, this going too far to handle Sable-M. But the thing is, Quiver pass is the best niche of Mono Poison, and is almost every mono poison team. The combination of Venomoth and Nidoking is making both Sable-M sets a liability while sweeping the rest of the team in the process. So no, Mono Poison doesn't fall flat in front of Sable-M.

    According to Celebi, Rock Polish set is the best Landorus-I set for Mono Ground. Now this is something that I forgot to pickup on before, but if you run rock polish, you can run modest. If you run modest, you do not need Calm mind and can 2hko Sable-M at +1 sp def. So thats another staple answer to Sable-M for you guys.
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 222-263 (73 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO


    So that leaves us with Ghost and Steel. For ghosts, it's kinda awkward because both are most likely carrying mega eye. Specs Chandelure can live an unboosted Dark Pulse, and do upto 74% to a +1 Sable-M. At which point he will at least be in the ko range of his team mates should he go down. For Steel SD LO Bisharp can eliminate Sable-M through burn dealing upto 86% at +6 (even recover spamming wouldn't avoid 2hko then, and Sable-m can not boost fast enough or hit hard enough). Also for once, Snarl screws Sable-M up. So, yeah Steel struggles against Sable-M. But to be honest, Steel is such a strong mono with the ability to get past all 3 weaknesses with immunities and high stats, I can't really see that as a bad thing.
     
  17. .Rawr!

    .Rawr! c(°3°)כ

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    yeah my bad, i was talking in terms of bulk only, but I probably have posted for comparison other mon like mega-venusaur tho

    But thats just it, sableye is exclusive and he is the best and what he does. There is no other mon in the meta right now which offers the ammount of support megaeye can do. Bulky calm minder, hazard control, status bouncer, knock offer, will-o-wisper and finally have reliable recovery to do its work again and again. Thats the reason lum berry+sw/dd mons arent threats to megaeye, there is a high chance the lum berry will be consumed in the switch if megaeye use wow, leaving the sweeper helpless again other burn.
    Also, while this gen monoghost is a bit underwhelming (agreeing with u on that, best monoghosts i have seen lately are the stall ones, with like aegislash, sableye, trevenant, jellicent and 2 attackers iirc), monodark continue to be a very offensive mono, and can be still good without megaeye.

    let's be real here, no one is using megadoom, when there is megaeye (sigh) and megapedro for dark, and megachar-x for fire
     
  18. E.T.

    E.T. METAMORPHOSIS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    My response to @Dominique-XLR is in bold.
     
  19. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    The point of Scarf mon, is its just too easy, too brainless, Often time you can lead with them and insta win in minimal number of turns. Sable, regardless of set is nowhere near threatening. While you are saying Sable has advantage against more monos, I'm saying the threat level is much lower. There are a lot of mons who, while incapable of coming in and destroying a +1/+1 Mega Eye, can beat Sable head to head, Specially considering the offensive nature of the meta, Sable isn't finding the room to setup with ease.

    I don't really follow your whole 'You can't just slap Garde in mono Psychic and never have to worry about Mega Sableye' statement. What exactly are you expecting in a Mono Psychic vs Mono Dark/Ghost matchup ? Aegis setting up on Garde only shows that Aegis is very good against Mono Psychic. The fact that Garde easily switches in and forces out every time Sable-M comes should only mean Sable is not the issue here.

    Setting up through burn is not ideal, but it does show Sable can still be broken through. Mandibuzz is the only one who can phaze among typical Dark & Ghost mono, so Sable's teammates would not appreciate a +6 burnt scizor/pinsir/sharp either.

    When I said Kyurem, I meant original Kyurem, not the black one; who has 130 base SpA and used to be a viable specs holder. Anyway if Blizz spam is bad, what possible niche Mono Ice even have? I'm not saying you are wrong, but lol what doesn't Mono Ice struggle with? This isn't really a logic I suppose, and like I said, I don't have experience with mono Ice ; but it seems like mono Ice being bad can not really be attributed to Sable-M. But basing on what you just said, I do concede Mono Ice are screwed in front of Sable-M.

    Actually 9 times out of 10 you will know your opponent Sableye's set before you start setting up. Hitting mons with foul play on the switch doesn't usually work either. Since most physical mons worry about will-o-wisp, Sable-M's opponent is most likely to go for a special attacker anyway. Sableye comes in and out all the match, specially the support set. So no, the surprise factor isn't there. I don't know what you meant in the line before the last one either. Keep tran alive, or Talon will destroy your mono Steel; keep Gastro alive or Keldeo murders everyone in mono ground .. that's just pokemon.
    Over all the support set can be handled by about twice as many pokemon, and without a rare few exception; the answer to CM set will work on support set regardless. Sable have been already established as a great mon in a semi-decent mono type who is far from overly difficult to handle, specially considering the inherent nature of the Meta itself. Bans should be absolutely minimal, and this one for me just doesn't make the cut.
     
  20. E.T.

    E.T. METAMORPHOSIS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    This was the statement I was responding to in regard to Gardevoir, and my main point was that Psychic can still have problems with M-Sableye despite having Gardevoir on the team because of the reasons I mentioned. However, yes, Gardevoir will always win 1v1. The burned SD users will only get to +6 if WoW misses or if M-Sableye is dumb enough to stay in.

    Oh, for regular Kyurem, even specs Blizzard fails to 2HKO after + 1, but it does about 52-62 % to unboosted not considering Hail damage or the chance to freeze, so M-Sableye probably would be forced out from that if it hadn't setup yet. However, there's really no reason to use Kyurem on Ice when you can use Kyurem-B who is much, much better.
    From my experience with Mono-Ice, the only "good" Blizzard abuser is M-Aboma. Rather than Blizzard spam, what seems to work better for Ice now is hard hitters (even Scarf Kyurem-B still hits like a truck), Ice-Shard users, and ways try to manage its weaknesses as best as possible. Avalugg deals with most physical hits well and can usually survive at least one Super Effective hit, and it can also spin while having the ability to heal itself with Recover. Thick Fat Walrein is greatly amused by Fire moves. I actually wouldn't call Ice bad if it is used well and avoids Steel, but SR weakness and poor defensive typing stop it from being great.
     
  21. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    @Dominique-XLR you said: The fact that Garde easily switches in and forces out every time Sable-M comes should only mean Sable is not the issue here

    The fact Meloetta can take any Ghost move means Monopsychic will always win against Monoghost?
    Oh and also:

    4 SpA Mega Sableye Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 134-162 (48.3 - 58.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO
    Good luck switching everytime against Sab
     
  22. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    This isn't OU, Sableye doesn't run shadow ball as mono coverage because of obvious immunity. This would be a much more relevant calc:
    4 SpA Mega Sableye Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 67-81 (24.1 - 29.1%) -- 99.2% chance to 4HKO

    E.T. presented a scenario where Aegis sets up on Garde after Garde gets to switch in against Sable. Therefore what I meant was, Aegis is the culprit here. He is the one who is demolishing Mono Psychic, not Sable. Mono Psychic can handle him as well as a mono weak to dark/ghost can possibly ever hope to. Hell, this actually shows that you can get away with having straight up type disadvantage against Sable. In most other similar scenarios (Nape against steel comes to mind) teams tend to just fall flat.

    It'd be nice if you provided actual argument for a change and not nitpick single lines/statements so as to misrepresent the reasoning I've provided.
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2015
  23. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    When you play a Monodark and you have 5 others mons who can use the dark coverage, you will take shadow ball ( Sball is superior cause you just need to WoW to death Mononormal)
     
  24. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    Good luck WoW-ing Mono Normal to death when Chansey and co exists. Bear in mind switches are infinite. Also he gives free reign to stuff like Exploud.
     
  25. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Well, I won't talk for everyone, but at least in the monodark I built:
    Spe def Ttar and Mandibuzz are very good partner to Mega Eye to take care of most mononormal threats ( lopunny, exploud, staraptor). The fact you can hit neutraly Monofighting makes the huge difference between S.Ball and Dark Pulse as Mega Sableye is always the key to victory against Monofighting. After getting 2-3 boosts it will deal signifiant damage/ohkoes to many of the threats you can find ( Terrakion, Keldeo, Gallade, Hawlucha etc etc)
    The fact it can also deal 50% to Gardevoir pre mega evo means that you just made one of the win con of Monopsy against dark/ghost half usable.

    So yes, in my opinion, in Monotype, Shadow ball is a better choice to use due to the matchup ( ie Monofighting and Gardevoir).
     
  26. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    The problem with Mega Sableye is not obscene killing potential. Rather, decent bulk paired with practically complete immunity to status and taunt, as well as its Pre-Mega Prankster ability allowing it to delay Mega Evolving to check physical threats makes it nearly impossible to kill. Relying on crits outside something like Critdra (lol) is a pretty silly argument to make; I doubt we want the metagame devolving into "will I crit him before he kills me and starts sweeping?". If Sableye were like Salamence or Haxorus who have a difficult time getting off a single boost, it'd be different, but Sableye tends to have a lot of opportunities to Calm Mind.

    Something that I've personally noticed as well, a lot of attacks used to break +1 or +2 Mega Sableye tend to, in addition to requiring locking oneself into a Choice item, require the use of moves with lower accuracy such as Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, Stone Edge, Icicle Crash, etc. Draco Meteor also requires Mega Sableye to be at a low HP and cause you to drop to -2 yourself, in addition to being 90% accurate. These are just some moves that others have mentioned and that I've personally seen used against Mega Sableye to try taking it down. Sableye getting haxed by crits is just about as likely (or less) than it haxing one of its checks.

    Shadow Ball and Dark Pulse are definitely based on the team and each have their own pros and cons in different matchups. Not sure why people are arguing about Psychic when Ghost and Dark pretty much have a ton of other Pokemon that destroy them anyway. In Monotype we should be looking at the matchups which on paper should be neutral, but aren't.

    I think people also need to keep in mind that it is not mandatory for Sableye to Mega Evolve or start Calm Minding against every team it faces. For the Dragon matchup, it can very well stay in its base form as priority Will-O-Wisp+Recover is infinitely more useful than trying a sweep against a bunch of stat up mons. I don't know why Mega Sableye is staying in allowing mons to set up to more than +2 without burning them or killing them either. More likely than not it'll just finish them off or cripple and switch to something to fodder or revenge (pick one of like 10 viable sucker punch users).

    Rock pretty much has to carry Mega Diancie to beat Sableye, although this probably applies to non-Mega as well admittedly. Mega Aggron is actually also very viable in its own right, so one can't expect every single team to carry Mega Diancie.
    Normal just sort of stalemates with Mega Sableye, but Dark tends to have a ton of teammates who can pressure Normal with Knock Off. Mega Sableye is essentially the perfect pivot for Dark in this matchup, immune to status and unkillable by walls and other support mons.
    Grass doesn't really have Shaymin that often from what I've seen. Even if it did, you're relying on a move that only has a .255 chance to drop Sableye's stats each turn, while Sableye can just boost. It can't 2HKO Mega Sableye at +1 with LO either and risks a 15% chance of just missing and giving the opponent a free turn. It'd be possible to deal with Sableye with something like Sleep Powder or Spore, but Magic Bounce puts the kibosh on that plan.

    There are a few other types Mega Sableye has an adverse effect on that I won't really go into at this point, as others have already spoken about them. Unlike Talonflame, which I've seen some reference, Mega Sableye actually decides matchups in types where its team did not already have an advantage. Talonflame really only messes with Grass, Bug, and Fighting. Flying already has the advantage for these matchups and Fire dominates two of them as well. Fighting also has Pokemon such as Terrakion, Keldeo, and random sash Pokemon that make the Fire v. Fighting matchup not completely one-sided. Outside of those matchups, I'd say Talonflame's performance is just above average, but not spectacular.

    Anyway, rambling about Talonflame aside. Mega Sableye's incredible support working in parallel with its ability to pull out sweeps does make it broken in my opinion. The majority clearly seems to want to ban Mega Sableye, in addition to the tier leaders unanimously wanting to ban. As such, Sablenite will be banned in Monotype effective as soon as possible.
     
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