1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

[BW2] Suspect Discussion: Shandera

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Discussion' started by yiran, Dec 9, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. yiran

    yiran Become a Magical Girl!

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    1,695
    Likes Received:
    0
    Discuss the possibility of Shandera being banned or not.

    Make intelligent posts, avoid talking about things you didn't test, especially if they're from 4th gen.

    Try finding counters, checks, and threats to Shandera, try to give an estimate of its power, and what it does very well.

    Then say your opinion on its tiering.

    If a consensus is reached after several days of discussion, backed by people who do well on the ladder, then it'll probably be adopted. Don't forget this is for the Dream World tier.
     
  2. Pizza

    Pizza I'm so bad at this game.

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    0
    It's OU. A serious threat that needs to be accounted for, but it's OU. I've never had problems with it. Just don't go around spamming choiced Normal/Fighting attacks recklessly.
     
  3. Ginku

    Ginku Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2010
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    0
    The arguments are in the other threads, so just a quick resumé (pro-OU):

    -Shed Shell makes it much less threatening for obvious reasons

    -With the first point, I'll have to add that centralization =/= Uber; is "a whole moveslot" and some other preparations like not laying your pokemon out as bait when you know your opponent has a shandera really too much?

    -It's slow. No need to elaborate here.

    -It doesn't completely destroy as many things as it would initially seem.

    -It's frail. I don't care if it has more bulk than starmie, it dies to or is severly crippled by most serious hits, which makes it difficult to bring in without something having died first.

    -It's weak to SR and vulnerable to the other hazards, further reducing its longevity.

    -It's pursuit bait. I know I know, "I don't want to run pursuit!" and all, but I mean it's easy to take advantage of because Shandera is close to being a liability if your opponent has a pursuit user. [And is not mentally restricted]

    -It ends up as set up-bait most of the time.

    This was either all or more is to come, but I have to go now. Don't ban please.

    Oh and no characteristics. Please don't.
     
  4. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,155
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'll probably just make one post here unless I have the time to ladder with a shandera team (not likely), anyway...

    The Good:

    Shandera is an amazing pokémon with shadow tag in tow, it can more often then not completely choose its battles and thrives on teams that has problems with fighting, ice, fire and bug weaknesses, because at the end of the day what Shandera does is eliminating specific threats the rest of the team can't handle with startling efficency. Whether it is through switching in or coming in after a kill, most of the time Shandera will not leave the battlefield without a kill under its wings. It has an amazing base 145 special attack, which is the currently highest in OU with coveted stabs on ghost and fire. Where as Dugtrio has a pitiful base 80 attack and can only trap grounded threats, and Magnezone can only trap steels, Shandera comes out as the best trapper in the game bar the special case of pursuit-weak 'mons. With SR on the field one can also often see whether the opponents walls carry shed shell or not, which makes it a very shaky counter to shanderas trapping ability. Oh, and with a sub Shandera can set up to +6 in both special attack and special defense on some of the specially oriented walls while still carrying two attacks, not a very popular strategy, but since it still retains its sub after on something like blissey physical threats will have a hard time getting in.

    The Bad:

    Let's be honest here, in a metagame where base 95 isn't good enough to sweep Shanderas speed is quite pitiful, while it is quick enough to be able to deal with most walls even while holding specs, most Shanderas will carry a scarf, which means that once it has killed something the opponent can regain momentum easily, so unless you manage to trap and kill the one thing holding most of your team back this might mean you end up in trouble. Especially overheat is a risky proposition, as even with base 145 special attack Shandera won't really kill any viable switch-in at -2.

    My opinion:

    Shandera is definately a metagame-defining pokémon at this time, his usage is almost twice as big as number 2 and with a good reason, a trapper that can kill such a large amount of the metagame is not to be trifled with. Whether Shandera is too be banned or not depends entirely on what kind of metagame we want at this point, nothing does trapping as well as Shandera does it, and being guaranteed to lose one of your Pokémon to Shandera at some point in the match might at times feel very cheap and skilless, unless you make sure everything in your team can survive a hit and kill back or carry shed shell, at which point it's pretty clear what kind of a grip the chandelier has at the metagame as whole. Even then he allows set-up after a kill, but unless you are using a boosting sweeper this is true for pretty much ANY kill, Shandera is no exception and can viably run non-choice scarfed sets just to screw up some of the switch-ins.

    Shandera will never win you games single-handedly, but he punches large holes in teams that his 5 compadres can easily exploit, and that is in my opinion the thing that simply just might tip him over the edge, if it is ever banned, it is because of the support it can give rather then raw killing power.
     
  5. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shandera: Ghost/Fire
    Abilities: Flash Fire / Flame Body / Shadow Tag
    Stats: 60 HP 55 Atk 90 Def 145 Sp.Atk 90 Sp.Def 80 Spd

    Shadow Tag along wiith Choise Scarf and a Whopping base 145 Sp. Atk makes Shandera the one if not the best Revenge Killer/Trapper. With Choise Scarf it reaches a decent 426 speed and can still pack 389 Sp.Atk with max EVs in both Stats allowing it to easily come in on a Pokemon it can kill and Killing it because the opponent can't escape.

    Pro's: Shadow Tag - You opponet cant escape, makes shandera the best Trapper/Revenge Killer
    Great Move pool - Has ok coverage and 2 excellent stabs Fire/Ghost
    Excellent Typing: Has 2 Immunities and Plenty of Resistances allowing it to freely switch in on most unboosted resisted attacks

    Con's : Speed: Base 80 speed - 284 max with out an Item means it gets owned by faster threaths
    Longivity: Weak to Stealth Rock - unless you have a spinner to clear shandera's way you cant switch in and out too much. Shandera is also succeptable to Spikes and Toxic Spikes.
    Recoil: Thats the best way I can explain this next one as Shandera's main use is with a Choise Scarf Set and just like any other Scarfer, The next turn can allow your opponent to set up another Pokemon while Shandera is forced to Switch out.

    IMO Shandera is in no way Uber mainly because it doesn't have much flexibility it works the best when it is scarfed, I dont think the "gimmick" sets have to be listed for everyone to say they dont work. Trainers should however accept that Shandera is a top OU tier pokemon and Prepare themselves to shut it down as soon as possible. It can't be countered unless the Pokemon it switches into has a Shed Shell, I dont think most people will sacrife their other items just so that all thier pokemon can run away from Shandera. It's Revenged By Pursuit users only if they come in on an attack they resist the most used Shandera Revenge Killer is Tyranitar. I feel Shandera Has the tools it need to Successfully compete in the OU tier and because most trainers take advantage of that "Centralizing" doesnt mean its too powerful, it just means you will see it quite often.

    +1 for Shandera staying where it is OU...
     
  6. Rocky

    Rocky Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    My opinion on it's tiering depends solely on the policy we will use to consider something ban worthy.
    I don't enjoy a Metagame with Shandera in it.
    However I don't think it's broken as Darkrai, Shaymin-S or Manaphy in terms of power.
    It centralizes too much.
    It's a great asset to stop some threats, makes the game faster and cut's down the effectiveness of otherwise too good Pokemon like Nattorei.

    Mixed feelings, but I will vote just based on personal preference, as we have no standards of banning but feelings and subjective conjectures: Ubers.
     
  7. Ice-eyes

    Ice-eyes Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    62
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't think Shandera is uber. The net result of using Shandera to trap something is this:
    -1 poke to you in order to get Shandera in
    +1 poke to you in what Shandera kills
    -tempo because they can easily set up on *scarf move*.

    Also, Shandera can dangerously unbalance offensive teams because if your scarfer is that slow you can have serious problems dealing with the likes of Salamence and Urugamosu (and even Gyarados).
     
  8. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    0
    A well built team will have little to nothing to fear from Shanderaa. It only has one viable set and it pretty much never deviates from that standard. Most of OU is forming around not being killed by it, similar to what Blissey does. Its not hard to work around. Its -2 Overheat or other weak attacks can be used to setup on, and letting that Urugamosu get to +1 or Doryuuzu get a Swords Dance could end the game for you.

    BUT.. Shanderaa absolutely centralizes the metagame. I refuse to let Shanderaa be banned off being "broken" or whatever just because it can revenge kill some things, but if the logic for Shandy being banned is it being no fun, I actually agree. Shanderaa screws tons of viable Pokemon out of an OU spot, and makes others liabilities just by existing. I prefer to play Wifi due to the greater ease building teams not having to worry about Shanderaa.

    I vote Uber not because its overpowered, but because its no fun.
     
  9. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    2,896
    Likes Received:
    888
    Objectively, Shandera is not broken at all. You can always run shed shell, and you can even cause a double switch to scout for Shandera. Shed shell pokemon can escape shadow tag, and open up an opportunity for a counter to come on to the field. Besides that, base 80 speed is disappointingly slow, and even with a scarf, many pokemon will have increased their speed by the time Shandera comes into the field. Even disregarding that, having -2 after revenging a pokemon normally lets the opposing switch in easily get a stat boost, which more often than not puts the shandera user into a dangerous situation. It's specs set is great at wall breaking, but even then it still gives up all forward momentum; it's not nearly as useful if it isn't choiced in some way. It's not paper thin, but in a metagame where base attacking stats over 100 are standard, 60/90/90 defenses really don't cut it.

    However, it all boils down to whether or not we want to ban something due to the fact that it forces people to run specific pokemon. Everyone who can read knows by now that over centralization does not equal uber, but if it forces something to this extent, it's worth considering.

    But, with that said, I vote uber, simply because it just gets boring having to run the same pokemon. I don't think we should ban something to make the metagame "more fun," but the centralization Shandera causes is ridiculous.
     
  10. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    0
    Although I can identify with the irritation against overcentralization, I tend to agree mostly with Ice-eyes here, because that really is the situation in almost every case. No Shandera with Shadow Tag runs anything but a scarf and Timid; if they don't, they're ineffective. Therefore, all Shandera which are being discussed in this thread will be assumed to be Timid+Scarf. This limits its damage output, and makes it quite easy to setup with almost any pokemon that doesn't take super effective damage from Shandera's attacks.

    Shandera's STAB moves have good coverage together, but aren't anywhere near as effective separately. For example:
    Fire:
    • Hit NVE:
      • Dragon
      • Fire
      • Rock
      • Water
    • Hit for neutral damage:
      • Dark
      • Flying
      • Electric
      • Fighting
      • Ghost
      • Ground
      • Normal
      • Poison
      • Psychic

    Ghost:
    • Hit NVE:
      • Dark
      • Steel
    • Hit for neutral damage:
      • Bug
      • Dragon
      • Electric
      • Fighting
      • Fire
      • Flying
      • Grass
      • Ground
      • Ice
      • Poison
      • Rock
      • Water
    [/HIDE]

    34 of the top 50 pokemon resist Fire or Ghost, so it's not that difficult to switch in on after a kill. And again, the switch-in doesn't necessarily have to resist the type as long as it's not super-frail like Gengar or Cloyster, due to Shandera's need to run Timid and a Choice Scarf (I'd give calcs, but I'm not on my regular computer). And Shandera, as previously mentioned, really is pretty frail, and weak to many common attacking types, including Dark, Ghost, Rock, Ground, and Water.

    Shandera can make an inescapable kill in certain cases (although Shed Shell does mitigate this and should be included in discussion), but after that, it's mere setup fodder, and it's difficult to get in in the first place, due to its frailty without defensive investment and weakness to many common attacking types. For these reasons, I believe that Shandera is not overpowered and should not be Uber.

    EDIT: I know this will get me flamed, but this thread in Smogon's Policy Review really helps to illuminate exactly what the reasons are behind the banning of any pokemon. If you read the the thread through, you'll find it's not so far-fetched to to ban a pokemon based upon its overcentralization of the metagame, if such overcentralization is absolutely overpowering and removes too much of the variety from the game. However, such overcentralization would imply that the pokemon is so powerful that it completely removes and devalues other strategies, which would imply brokenness in itself.

    tl;dr Overcentralization and subsequent stagnation of the metagame can be a valid part of an argument for a pokemon to become Uber.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  11. Cake

    Cake Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Messages:
    447
    Likes Received:
    2
    This post was infracted and only remains undeleted to keep the following posts in context.

    Previous content:
    The guy who made that thread doesn't seem to know too much.

    Diversity being the choice of Halo or Call of Duty. Improvements being mappacks. Or mods to Half-Life 2(See any Valve game).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2010
  12. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    0
    The idea of the variety characteristic of a metagame that was defined in the thread is the breadth of options available to a player of the game, not necessarily monumental changes such as mods or patches. In Call of Duty (although those games are very different than Pokemon), since you mentioned it, variety would be constituted of the set of viable weapons and perks available in the game. If, say, the ACR in Modern Warfare 2 was as accurate as a sniper rifle, and had high bullet damage, as well as its obscene rate of fire, it would probably overwhelm the game of Call of Duty to such an extent that no other strategy would be viable. That sort of situation (or at least the overcentralization aspect of it) is what a few posters have given already as a reason for banning Shandera. The point of bringing up that thread is that it helps to explain why such overcentralization, when it exists, harms the metagame to a considerable degree and should be considered in a suspect discussion.
     
  13. Galblade

    Galblade FAT PRINCESS

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,417
    Likes Received:
    2
    Shandera is like SR atm, forcing people to use specific pokemon that aren't weak to Fire and Ghost. The majority of UU mons atm are being held there because of the ever present threat of Shandy and its trapping abilities, along with a few other mons, namely TTar and other more powerful weather mons. I vote Uber, mainly because it is forcing gen 4 syndrome all over again.
     
  14. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,341
    Likes Received:
    290
    PO Trainer Name:
    mibuchiha
    Didn't feel like repeating all I said again, just putting my vote. OU.

    p/s: Unlike SR, you don't need a team to be built around Shandy at all. Just have one pokemon that can mess with it real good and chances are it'll be rendered a liability.

    Shed Shell + Pursuit (for example's sake, I'm NOT implying this is THE ONE AND ONLY way to take it out) takes 2 pokemons. Building a team around SR means having all team members not horribly weak to it and/or always having a spinner alive. Not even similar.
     
  15. Ginku

    Ginku Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2010
    Messages:
    818
    Likes Received:
    0
    lol
    Read cosmic's post. Just wanted to put the lol in here.

    Also, since i think the "I know this will get me flamed,..." part was directed at me, this is a bit different. Banning a Pokemon on a basis of inaccurate and generalizing characteristics is not the same as banning it to make the metagame better (this shouldn't go over the edge though, i.e. banning things just because we don't like to deal with them), and because "a good metagame" is way too subjective, you'll need to define that metagame.
     
  16. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2010
    Messages:
    796
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree.

    I stick to what I said in the other failed Shandera suspect thread, which is that Shandera controls the metagame. I want it to uber. I can't even use classic Breloom or cm Jirachi anymore. Yes Shandera has its counters, however not everyone on a team (except maybe a rain team) will counter Shandera. I don't want to put shed shell on Breloom, Nattorei, Abominasnow, Shaymin, Jarooda and many more just for one Pokemon. Assuming Shandera is a scarf variant, it takes out unboosted dragons, anything with mediocre Sp Def (take typing into account), etc. My vote is Uber.
     
  17. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,001
    Likes Received:
    0
    Though I agree with you to some extent here i.e [Latios being UU] I still dont agree that Shandera Centralizes the metagame to Pursuit users. Gen 4 was Dominated by Stall but that doesnt mean you are dead if you dont have a Rapid Spinner on your team, I for one could never find a solid Spinner they are all so lame sharing almost all of the same weaknesses. Gen 5 however is not Centralized on Laying Spikes/SR etc because Shandera for one deals with the pesky mons but the same Pokemon are the main Shed Shell users e.g Skarmory, Nattorie, Foretress etc. Gen 5 is all about the weather mons so if any centralizing exists it exists around Super Speedy Sweepers not Shandera. A well balanced team should not fear Shandera and though Variety is good in the metagame the Players who decide that Variety should be CREATIVE and I believe that is the one of main reasons Shandera is getting soo much heat. Players aren't considering the fact that the Meta is evolving and you have to think differently to sucessfully survive in it.
     
  18. Rocky

    Rocky Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    We can't really talk about centralization that much yet because the tiers are changing all the time and new stuff is being exploited every second.
    For now, Inconsistent has become the strat-to-beat when you are team-building, not weather, Shandera or hazards.
    I actually haven't seen that many weather teams, which is weird given that SS and Hail are great to deal with Inconsistent users.
    I myself am carrying a nice all-around team in wifi with great sucess and with some nice but not top-notch pokemon like Quagsire, Iwaparesu and Nidoking, who in a world of Shanderas would all be a heavy liability. If Shandera remains OU, teams will be like this: Rain, Sand, period.
     
  19. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    0
    I don't really see that happening; only 9 of the top 20 UU pokemon are weak to Shandera, and although that doesn't provide a really precise metric, it does point more toward the fact that there are simply better pokemon in the OU metagame, and that although these pokemon are good, they're not being used simply because they're not as good (or not as fun to play with) as the pokemon currently in OU.

    For example, much of the Dream World OU metagame is composed of either newer pokemon or pokemon with new Dream World abilities, and I think when that sort of feeling of newness fades away, and pokemon that are good in the sort of metagame that doesn't have level 1 Aron are used, we'll be able to get much more accurate tierings. Terakion, one of the most powerful new pokemon at #5 in the UU usage statistics, can decimate opposing teams in OU rather easily with a Double Dance set, due to its powerful dual STAB, but is in UU, not because it's weak to Shandera; in fact, it's exactly the opposite. However, it is in UU because it's simply not as good or not as fun to use in the current Dream World metagame as, say, Nattorei, or Garchomp.

    I simply don't think, especially due to the newness of the UU metagame and of the Gen 5 metagame in general (has it even been a month yet?), that one can say that certain pokemon are in UU only because of Shandera.


    It wasn't directed specifically at you, just at those who might say, "we don't care what Smogon does at all; why should we look at this?" The idea of the thread isn't specific to Smogon; it applies to any sort of community which attempts to make its metagame better by helping to define exactly what kind of metagame we want (hence the title), so it applies to any suspect discussion, not just this one. I just brought it up specifically because it stated exactly the aspect of a metagame that a couple posters had already brought up as a major reason for their opinions about Shandera, and did so in a way that made it simple to comprehend.

    I also agree that pokemon shouldn't be banned simply because "they're annoying to deal with" (which isn't the case for this suspect), but because they have a significant enough effect upon the rest of the metagame such that the result is a game with little variety in which only a select few pokemon are used. That point can of course be debated, that Shandera has that much of an effect upon the metagame, but the main reason for bringing up the thread was to legitimize what could otherwise be construed as unwillingness to simply adapt to the forces of the metagame, which is in this case Shandera.


    I'm afraid I don't exactly see where you're going with this; both classic Breloom and CM Jirachi can both be used about as successfully as they could last generation. Unless you're switching Breloom in on Shandera, Breloom will always have a Substitute up as Shandera switches in, allowing Breloom to easily take it out with Stone Edge. Sure, Leech Seed variants aren't as easy to play, but it certainly isn't too difficult to simply switch to using a move that was already pretty common before the advent of Shandera. CM Jirachi was also hard-countered by Heatran in Gen 4, and Heatran was actually used more then than Shandera is now! Although of course Jirachi could run a set with Hidden Power Ground to get past Heatran, it can actually do the same to Shandera with Shadow Ball, while Shandera doesn't KO after a Calm Mind boost. So both of those pokemon are still just as viable, even with Shandera in play.

    Most of the other pokemon you mentioned also have a way to get past Shandera; Shaymin and Jaroda commonly use Earth Power and Hidden Power Rock to complement their coverage; Shaymin isn't OHKOed by Fire Blast with some defensive investment, and Jaroda is probably behind a Substitute, allowing it to KO Shandera with Hidden Power Rock. Nattorei would and should already be using Shed Shell at least some of the time, to avoid Magnezone. Abomasnow is the only one of the pokemon you mentioned that must do something out of the ordinary to avoid Shandera, namely using a Shed Shell.

    Is it really that game-changing to have to put a Shed Shell on a few pokemon to avoid a new threat? Many pokemon had to think about using a Shed Shell when it was introduced to avoid Magnezone's Magnet Pull, and yet it obviously isn't anywhere near overpowered. Even though Shandera can stop something from switching out, it doesn't mean that it will necessarily make it unusable. Shandera's frailty without investment and need to run a Choice Scarf limits its offensive prowess to the point where it simply can't do enough damage to everything it needs to. Although on paper Shandera seems to be quite overpowering, in practice, it simply doesn't work out that way.



    If I recall correctly, Shadow Tag Shandera has been released, so that the pokemon you mentioned would be susceptible to Shandera. However, none of those pokemon except Quagsire (which would mean another pokemon gets to setup on a Choiced 80 BP Grass move) seem that vulnerable to Shandera. Iwaparesu isn't KOed if it's running a standard defensive set, and can hit back hard with STAB Rock moves. If it's running a Shell Break set, unless you're switching it into Shandera's Fire Blast, it will just KO Shandera with its STAB Rock moves. Nidoking is hardly ever OHKOed by Shandera's Fire Blast, and KOs back with Earth Power.

    Also, I don't see how you can say that "we can't talk about centralization" and then proceed to state that, "If Shandera remains OU, teams will be like this: Rain, Sand, period." I agree both that Rain and Sand teams are being widely used at the moment and also that the tiers are so new that it's difficult to talk about centralization. But it's difficult to prove that Shandera makes those the only viable types of teams. Hyper Offense, for example, will be boosting up on Shandera's ineffective moves, and Shandera simply won't be able to switch in, as the boosted pokemon outspeeds Shandera and KOs. That was only a single example. As pokemonnerd stated previously, you can simply double switch or U-turn/Volt Change out to scout for Shandera, which makes it much easier to deal with.




    Although Shandera is a powerful force in OU, I believe that it should not be banned, due to its frailty, relatively meager offensive prowess without a boosting item or nature (it's meager because it's so frail that it has to OHKO quite a few things to avoid being KOed itself, or just wrecked by Stealth Rock), and low speed without a Choice Scarf, which means that not only is it unable to switch moves after a KO, giving the other team dangerous momentum, but also that it's unable to revenge pokemon that have setup, making it next to useless against a standard offensive team. Shandera's Shadow Tag ability may seem overpowered in theorymon, but in practice, it simply can't do enough damage to everything it needs to in order to avoid being KOed, which keeps it soundly OU.
     
  20. Rocky

    Rocky Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    Shandera doesn't need Fire Blast but Overheat, and then it gets it's OHKOs easier. Just a nitpick.
     
  21. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    0
    You have a good point, that Overheat allows Shandera to get some kills that it wouldn't get otherwise, but then Shandera can't do anything to any sort of switch-in that's not weak to fire, allowing more pokemon to easily setup on it.

    I don't know if this point has been stressed enough: Shandera is incredibly easy to setup on after a kill. I posted a little list earlier which illustrates the number of types that Fire is ineffective or neutral against; 13 in total. Only 4 types cannot easily setup on a Choiced Overheat. For a point of reference, Gengar, one of the frailest fully evolved pokemon in the game, can take a -2 Overheat and still have enough health to setup a Substitute, with no defensive investment. And it's even easier for the Dragons and Waters and whatnot that resist Fire and don't have incredibly stupid defenses like Gengar; Salamence takes a piddling 22.6%-26.5% from Shandera's -2 Overheat.

    I use Fire Blast on my Shandera because I realize how much of a liability Shandera can become if it uses moves like Overheat which makes it cripple itself. It just means Shandera takes more hazard damage, gives momentum to the other team, and generally becomes a liability. Although of course Shandera does get the kill, what happens after the kill is also important.
     
  22. coyotte508

    coyotte508 Well-Known Member Administrator Server Owner Administrator Server Owner

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2010
    Messages:
    6,363
    Likes Received:
    168
    Wichu's calculations:

    (The KO is always situational, but it's good to know how much damage it can deal)
     
  23. Cake

    Cake Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Messages:
    447
    Likes Received:
    2
    What do people go Timid specifically for? It still doesn't get dragons and going Modest lets you get +1 Gyarados in most cases assuming it's weak enough for you to pick off. Only Jolteon and Aerodactyl comes to mind and neither are particularly team wrecking.

    Shandera runs a scarf because it's slow. It's not going to beat very many if any other scarfers.
     
  24. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    0
    Timid allows it to beat base 125s and up, including Step Meroetta, Crobat, Swellow, and Weavile, all of which can easily OHKO Shandera, as can the two you previously mentioned. It also allows Shandera to beat +1 Adamant Dragonite, which it can then KO with HP Ice. It also, arguably most importantly, allows Shandera to outspeed +1 Adamant Blaziken.
     
  25. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    0
    Actually thats a good point.

    Shanderaa loses a speed point with HP Ice (IIRC) so its not beating Dragonite if its Jolly while Blaziken can Protect stall another Speed Boost (not that Shanderaa is going to OHKO anyway). Scarf Heatran is also outrun, but its not like Shadow Ball will do anything to it.

    Who cares about Jolteon, Aerodactyl, Step Meroetta, Crobat, Swellow, and Weavile. NONE of which are even close to OU.
     
  26. Cake

    Cake Member

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2010
    Messages:
    447
    Likes Received:
    2
    : | Minus def and attack people. This is crazy especially on PO where they give you options.
     
  27. kobo1d

    kobo1d Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2010
    Messages:
    55
    Likes Received:
    0
     
  28. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,155
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is certainly interesting, so aside from Dragonite we could just potentially run modest?
     
  29. Rocky

    Rocky Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2010
    Messages:
    87
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've been running Modest since PO has 5th Gen, never understood the hype for Timid but never felt like throwing some numbers to back my decision.
    Modest Overheat does OHKO stuff pretty easy and I never had anything to revenge that I couldn't without Timid.
    One luxury LO Nidoking can't take :(

    Also, there's no point in including OHKO's like Doryuzzu, Shandera, Ditto or Scizor, and most Pokemons down the list are UU. It's good to know it can OHKO steels, yet they all should run Shed Shell or pack a Pursuiter.
    Shandera's OHKO capabilities are good but that's it. The problem is it can trap while other scarfers can't.
    And the trap is so strong that it nullifies the playability of those Pokemons OHKOed who are in the UU range : Alakazam, Desukan, Slowbro, Nidoking, Celebi, CM Jirachi, even Kojondo, while it adds practically nothing other than faster games due to ensuring KOs.
    I would remove Shandera of my community tier list if it wasn't for the fact that I would like to remain competitive and it would be a heavy liability to prepare teams for non-Shandera environments just to get wrecked up in Shandera filled ones.
     
  30. B8 XIII

    B8 XIII New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2010
    Messages:
    19
    Likes Received:
    0
    ...Deal with it.

    I never got complaints like this. A new gen brings new threats, making old sets and techniques invalid. Move on, rather than trying to shoehorn old sets into a new metagame - or face the consequences of being walled by the most used Pokemon in 5th gen play.
     
  31. Picklesword

    Picklesword Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2010
    Messages:
    76
    Likes Received:
    0
    I think everything has been said about shanderra's plus and minuses, so I'll just say I'll vote OU for some of the previous stated arguments and not uber for the same reason.
     
  32. evilblob

    evilblob Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm going to say Uber, as many have said, for the reason that it centralizes so much.

    Anyone that says it isn't broken, why is this?
    I think it's because the majority of the tier has adjusted to counter it.

    Examples...
    I will use current statistics from the Pokémon Online Server.

    Pursuit...
    In Gen 4, whilst Pursuit was used a fair bit...

    Tyranitar, Moves, Overused Gen 4
    Now...

    Tyranitar, Moves, Dream World
    Thats a just of about 15%. Quite alot for a single Pokémon...

    Then there's Shed Shell...
    The most used wall in the Dream World tier, Nattorei, and the 3rd most used Pokémon in Dream World, is forced to use Shed Shell 34% (rounded) of the time just so it isn't killed, leaving a huge hole in its teams defences.

    Nattorei, Items, Dream World
    Then theres the Pokémon that are UnderUsed just because of Shandera...

    UnderUsed Usage Top 10


    So 6 of the top 10 Pokémon in UnderUsed are there mainly because of Shandera.

    So I vote Shandera to Ubers, so that both the 'OverUsed' and 'UnderUsed' tiers can be a lot more balanced than they currently are.
     
  33. Pizza

    Pizza I'm so bad at this game.

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2010
    Messages:
    353
    Likes Received:
    0
    I believe the fact that the metagame could have adjusted to counter it shows us that it isn't broken. This was attempted in Gen 4 (although it truly isn't relevant, new metagame and all) with all the Ice Sharders getting usage boosts due to Latias and Salamence, yet it failed, as the two were overpowering. As I said in my previous post, Shanderaa is a serious threat that needs to be checked and countered, like all serious threats. This is why Pursuit is used more on Tyranitar.

    On the topic of Shed Shell, Shed Shell has always been an item that should be considered for any Steel, due to the threat of Magnezone. Skarm ran Shed Shell last gen, due Magnezone, what makes you think bulky set up steels won't do it this gen?
     
  34. coolguy31337

    coolguy31337 Amor Fati

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2010
    Messages:
    386
    Likes Received:
    0
    I rather doubt that the Ubers are kept there because of shanderra. Scarfed [email protected] beats shanderra, as does calm mind versions. Mew probably has the bulk to shake off a shadow ball, but I have yet to do the calcs for that. Deo-S outspeeds, means it gets up 2 layers if shanderra's not leading (which is still a success scenario) - The pokes which were uber last gen are only being unused due to the excessive stigma from being a uber last gen. And really, Venusaur is probably confined to UU because sun is nowhere as good in OU as in UU.

    Even if the aformentioned pokes were influenced heavily by shanderra, I feel like tyranitar and scizor are just greater overall threats to those pokes than Shanderra is. Don't fall for the confounding variables here.

    For Skarm:
    2 | Shed Shell | 19.84 %
    It's a 10% difference from nattorei
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
  35. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    0
    According to the statistics page, hardly any Dragonite use a speed-boosting nature, so Timid is quite necessary to take out Dragonite. Also, as Cake noted, HP Ice can easily be created by simply taking one IV out of Attack and Defense, so that Shandera can even take out +1 Jolly Dragonite, however little it's used, 50% of the time. If the opponent's using Protect Blaziken, it doesn't even matter because Blaziken can't touch Shandera if it only uses HJK + Blaze Kick, which are the only moves it has room for if it uses Protect. Also, Choice Scarf Shandera typically runs Hidden Power Ground specifically to hit Heatran.

    Exactly what kind of Tyranitar use Pursuit? Choice sets. The hyper-offensiveness of the early B/W metagame, the greater variety and power of Fighting-types this generation, and the heightened offensive prowess, especially speed, of the metagame in general all combine to make setup and defensive, as well as lead sets, ineffective. The statistics page for Tyranitar shows quite clearly that the majority of Tyranitar are running Choice Scarf, which is quite simply the easiest set to run in the current Dream World metagame. And how does a 15% increase in usage of an already important move make Shandera any more Uber? Choice sets are much more effective, and Pursuit is a staple on Choiced TTar, therefore Pursuit is much more popular.


    Skarmory used Shed Shell last gen even more than Nattorei does now, to avoid Magnezone. Shandera has simply replaced Magnezone; I don't see how this makes Shandera any more Uber.

    How do you get that Shandera is the sole reason these pokemon are in UU? Choice Scarf and Calm Mind versions of the Lati twins easily beat Shandy, while only Choice Specs versions lose to Shandera. However, the main reason it and other 4th Gen Ubers are UU this gen is because of the stigma against using 4th Gen Ubers that a large part of the playerbase has. This issue has been discussed in previous suspect threads, and actually led to the closing of the Wobbuffet thread, because it was simply not being used enough. The same applies to Deoxys-S and Mew, who don't care about Shandera at all; both have enough bulk to easily setup whatever they need to; hazards in Deoxys-S's case, and boosts to Baton Pass away in Mew's case. However, the UU playerbase is generally composed of more skilled and involved players, who know that 4th Gen Ubers are not Uber in 5th Gen, and have no self-imposed restrictions against using "legendaries."

    Jirachi is UU now because it's simply not as effective in the new metagame as it was before, not just because it's weak to Shandera. Just because something is both weak to Shandera and UU doesn't mean it's UU because of that. Jaroda, at #9 in usage, and Starmie, at #31, are both OU pokemon which Shandera can destroy with ease. In fact, Jirachi can actually deal with Shandera more easily than the above two, due to its excellent HP and special defense, and access to Calm Mind and Shadow Ball, while Starmie has no chance, and Jaroda can only get past Shandera if it gets two turns to set up and rolls near maximum damage with HP Rock, which should never happen unless the Shandera user is playing very badly and gets very unlucky.

    How can Shandera keep Terakion down? Terakion is a Shandera counter, not the other way around. Terakion is nowhere near KOed by any of Shandera's moves, and can easily just stat up and sweep, or just KO Shandera for Choiced versions. Shandera does not affect Terakion's usage at all, except to make it go up, as a very viable Shandera switch-in.

    Venusaur is only useful in Sun; outside of sunny weather, it's rather mediocre. It was a powerful force in UU last generation, but Gen 5 UU's power level is much higher than that of Gen 4 UU's, and in such an environment, Venusaur is useless outside of Sun. Sun happens to be the worst weather to play with in the currently weather-centric Gen 5 Dream World OU, where Rain and Sand both beat it easily. Sun teams would quite naturally be lower in usage than the everpresent Rain and Sand teams. However, in UU, where there is no Drizzletoad or TTar/Hippowdon, Sun teams are more easily abused, as DW Vulpix does get Drought, and Venusaur, being one of the most powerful Sun sweepers, is quite naturally higher in usage in UU in than the Rain- and Sand-centric Dreamworld OU metagame.


    These pokemon are UU because of a mix of factors, much of which is the stigma that much of the playerbase has against using 4th Gen Ubers, and also simply because of their drop in effectiveness in the new OU metagame when compared to the previous 4th Gen OU metagame, not simply because of the threat of Shandera.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2010
  36. Brongaa

    Brongaa Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2010
    Messages:
    41
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm not gonna write a wall of text for the sake of writing a wall of text. Honestly, cosmicexplorer nailed it.

    He said everything I wanted to say and more.
     
  37. evilblob

    evilblob Member

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2010
    Messages:
    208
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hmmmm, looking at the responses I got there, I may have to concede I may be wrong...

    Heck, I've changed my mind completely, I find Shandera rather easy to counter using only a single Shed Shell and Heatran, which was there anyway.
    Disregard my opinion in here then.
     
  38. mibuchiha

    mibuchiha Was yea ra chs ieeya.

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2010
    Messages:
    1,341
    Likes Received:
    290
    PO Trainer Name:
    mibuchiha
    Btw. If Shandera is banished to Ubers, there's almost no reason for Nattorei to run Shed Shell anymore. It'll go leftovers, and now that is too much. :|
     
  39. Blue Harvest

    Blue Harvest Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2010
    Messages:
    439
    Likes Received:
    0
    Fair enough about Dragonite, though Blaziken deals 55.2% - 65.1% with +0 Flare Bitz and OHKOs with +2 Blaze Kick after Stealth Rocks. Scarf Shanderaa does not run HP Ground very often regardless (something like 10-12%). Its mostly HP Ice. HP Ground isn't a OHKO anyway, even after Stealth Rocks.


    ** Regardless my opinion stands "Its not broken, but its also not fun". So I'm happy living with Shanderaa in OU or Ubers.
     
  40. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    782
    Likes Received:
    0
    You're right about Heatran; I don't think I mentioned it in my original post for that reason. Shandera doesn't need to get past Heatran anyway, so why bother with HP Ground, especially since it doesn't even OHKO after SR?

    Also, the statistics page shows that no Blaziken uses Flare Blitz except for Baton Pass leads (lol), and anyway, Blaziken with Protect almost always use it on the first turn they're out, just to get that guaranteed Speed Boost which lets them outspeed most other pokemon, so it's highly unlikely that a Blaziken will both have a functional Protect on the turn Shandera attacks and a Swords Dance up unless it gets ample time to setup first. Also Protect Blaziken sucks.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.