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June/July ORAS NU Potential Suspects Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Weavile, Jun 1, 2015.

  1. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    ORAS NU->ORAS LU
    Abomasnow
    Banette
    Claydol
    Fletchinder
    Froslass
    Heliolisk
    Jellicent
    Steelix

    ORAS LU->ORAS NU
    Bronzong
    Pinsir
    Poliwrath
    Stoutland
    Tangrowth
    Togetic

    ORAS NU -> ORAS OU
    Quagsire

    Bunch of interesting changes, for better or worse our tier is now very different.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
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  2. topah

    topah Active Member

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    i thought april fools was over??
     
  3. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    Eh, Tangrowth's the only vaguely interesting drop there. Losing M-Abomasnow, Heliolisk and Fletchinder will deal a big blow to offensive teams.
     
  4. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I dunno, Poliwrath's fairly solid. With both Jellicent and Milotic rising, it could definitely see some usage.
     
  5. snaga

    snaga .

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    pinsir is looking really run especially with fletch, steelix and jellicent leaving.


    Fire spam also looks extremely threatening with jelli + fletch leaving
     
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  6. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Drops bring some resistance to the previous threats that I felt should go (Sawk and Malamar), but it may not be enough, especially with all those walls going in Sawk's case. We'll have to see how the meta pans out. Togetic coming back is the only thing that's making me not go "BANHAMMAR NOWWWWW"
     
  7. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    Disappointed with the loss/gain this cycle. The current way the offense game is played will take a big hit but new options open up that may cause even more trouble.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
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  8. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    So what, Glalie and Audino the only megas now? And Glalie no longer has to compete with Froslass for a team spot....
     
  9. Dr. Doom

    Dr. Doom Long time hater of stall

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    We've still got Weezing, Spiritomb and Dusclops so Sawk does still have checks. You think Bronzong and Pinsir should be banned?
     
  10. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I think they meant that Togetic was the only drop who was preventing threats in the current meta from becoming a problem, not Pinsir and Bronzong being a problem.
     
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  11. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    Glalie is gonna rise in usage with the competition removed and Poliwrath is one of the few viable checks now also you should add in Quagsire leaving who went straight to OU
     
  12. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Losing Fletchinder is the best thing that has happened for offensive teams in a long while
     
  13. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Wait, is Mega-Pinsir legal?
     
  14. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    No, Pinsir's Mega Stone is banned from UU. Pinsir doesn't have enough usage in OU, so it fell down as a solo Pokemon while its Mega form is still OU. Fell all the way down to NU, kind of like Kangaskhan.

    Basically what Spoovo said. I was trying to say Togetic is big enough of a wall to make me not want Sawk and Malamar to leave right away, although one wall doesn't constitute a Pokemon fit for the tier (on the contrary). Also, as far as Weezing goes,
    252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 222-262 (66.4 - 78.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery. More of a check than anything. Its best checks/counters lie in Spiritomb and Togetic (barring Sawk's carrying Poison Jab).

    Nothing that dropped is incredibly unhealthy (and in the case of Togetic, 100% needed), I'm more concerned about the aftermath of the tier due to what rose. I'd advocate for Sawk and Malamar to leave first. (Not like Virizion has time to randomly run X-Scissor just to try to beat the damn thing).
     
  15. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    It's nice seeing things that shouldn't have been NU in the first place leaving NU. Although I do think Sawk/Malamar need to be banned. Malamar basically just gained a counter in Togetic but is just as unhealthy as it was before. Sawk has an easier way around Togetic but again, is still rather toxic to the tier.
    Wish Claydol was back. Happy with the other rises.

    Bronzong v Registeel is going to be an interesting little situation. Both will be competing for a team spot as they perform virtually the same role. Registeel is bulkier and Bronzong gets Ground immunity or Fire neutrality.
    The ability to eliminate a weakness will be key.

    Pinsir v Scyther will also be fun to see. Like above both are incredibly similar mons that ran both run Scarf/SD sets really well. Scyther gets the Speed boost and the ability to run Band/Bulky Eviolite sets, and Pinsir gets 2x weak to Rocks and higher attack. Both also have fantastic abilities and with Fletch gone, can wreck havoc on the tier.
    More versatile and gets U-Turn. Pinsir does get around some things that Scyther has trouble with, eg Weezing, but Scyther has teammates and U-Turn. It's fairly easy to get rid of hazards in NU anyway.

    Stoutland v Tauros. More mons holding similar niches in the tier. Stoutland is bulkier while Tauros is faster with a more often than not better ability. Both have great movepools and put them to work nicely. Tauros has easier time dealing with Poliwrath and Tangrowth. Stoutland can make use of choices sets much better. Tauros is also much faster and doesn't need to run Band or take LO recoil albeit prone to misses from Rock Climb, Zen Headbutt, and Fire Blast. Better speed and a better ability in most cases gives Tauros the advantage. Not having to lock itself into a move while being incredibly threatening to offense with it's speed also help.

    Typhlosion + Tangrowth is looking crispy AF. LO Tang will just prey on things, switches into Wrath/Lanturn with 0 problems and just threatens teams. Typhlosion is the treat it always has been.

    Togetic is my favorite drop though. Bulky NP + Bulky Nasty Pass + All out wall is looking quite fun to build with. Can't wait to build around this guy.
     
  16. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    ^ It's almost funny how you're praising a lot of the pokes I made a team with yesterday and are using to success. Strange coincidence.

    Zong/ CB Moldbreaker Sawk/ Mali/ NP pass Togetic/ LO Tang/ specsPhlosion
    Working GREAT in the 15 or so games I managed to get in the past 24 hours. Only issue I had was a person using their team very with with Vileplume, baiting out Typhlosion early on and from there beating my Sawk/Tangrowth.
     
  17. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Depressing tier shifts for the NU tier (I will miss wrecking people with my Fletchinder+ Mega Abomasnow core)

    If we look at the metagame as a whole, Virizion is like the supreme. With many of it's checks like Fletchinder and Froslass leaving, it will have an easier time sweeping. The inclusions of Bronzong and Togetic really help tame Virizion. Idk, we will just have to see how the metagame develops I guess.
     
  18. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Typhlosion looks like a real problem to me, considering we lost a great check in Jellicent. Specs/Scarf/Flame plate+WoW set all look extremely threatening; and it has the coverage to beat/cripple it's would be switch-ins as well. So I wouldn't be averse to a Typhlosion suspect in future.
     
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  19. E.T.

    E.T. SSSSSSSSSSSSS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I would fully support a suspect of Typhlosion because I think it may finally be time for it to leave the tier since there isn't much left that can safely switch into this thing, and what can switch in safely probably can't do so multiple times.

    On another note, what do you guys think about Acupressure? Considering that all other moves that can directly cause the Evasion stat to increase have been banned (unless I'm forgetting something), why is Acupressure still allowed? Drapion may be the only Pokemon in NU that can use it effectively, but basically, it can just keep setting up with a Sleep Talk/Rest set until it is ready to sweep or PP stall opposing teams to death. Sure, Haze and Taunt can stop it if you can get to it fast enough, but even if you have something that can 2HKO/OHKO it, you can still lose if it gets an evasion boost.
     
  20. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Acupressure isn't too big of a deal to me. I mean, sure Drapion could do that, but it just becomes fodder for whatever can come in and deal with it (Dugtrio and Malamar to name two, yay RestTalking Superpowers!), not to mention the random nature of Acupressure.

    As far as Typhlo goes, I can easily get behind it. That being said, I'd rather get Sawk and Malamar out of the way first, two very strong Pokemon that gained a crapload as a result of the shifts. Sawk is now the biggest late-game sweeper (with proper support for Sturdy) and is simply too strong, whereas you can't get past Malamar right now unless you're running some random special Bug move after it uses just one Superpower (Vivillon is the only bug worth mentioning in NU as it is, Leavanny wouldn't have the opportunity to face Malamar, not to mention Webs helps it). All 3 of them should probably leave the tier, it's just figuring out how to go about it (aka, what order) that's difficult.
     
  21. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Malamar is undoubtedly one of the bigger threats in NU, but the 4x bug-type weakness does actually haunt it; considering we now have Pinsir in the tier, as well as Scyther. Keeping hazards away isn't that hard either as we have Xatu+ defoggers. Malamar also doesn't enjoy random U-Turns from anything, so that's that.

    Sawk has been NU for a while now, while it's very strong and everything, it has hard-checks which Typhlosion lacks. So as far as brokenness goes, nothing matches Typhlosion in the tier at the moment.
     
  22. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    Maybe I'm not using Typhlosion to its full effectiveness but it doesn't scream broken to me. You can put out any amount of damage calcs you'd like, Typh hits fucking hard and it's no joke but I feel like in practice it's numbers are a bit deceiving. I'm finding opponents are on their toes when they see mine and prepare appropriately. I use specs/LO sets often and primarily use it as a wall breaker, so yeah I could be doing things wrong and it wouldn't surprise me because I'm so rusty so I could be off base with this post.
     
  23. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    With Lanturn, Pelipper, and Mantine being the only bulky Waters left in the tier Typhlosion kinda does work. All 3 mons check Ty really really well though. It's just that Lanturn and Mantine lack reliable recovery. It isn't really a big deal though cause chances are Ty isn't getting 4,5,6 free turns to just switch in. Lanturn is 4hko'd by EQ, Mantine and Pelipper can switch in for days if it doesn't carry HP Electric, and lets be honest, neither one of those mons are popular right now and you have to fight off HP Grass as a coverage move. You've also got Thick Fat Miltank and Lickilicky than can easily stall out Focus Blast and live everything else (unless LO/Specs but the damage difference is so telegraphed its insane. Besides both are super fat and have reliable enough recovery). Then you have to consider Rocks weakness which definitely hurts, especially considering that NU has some solid Rock setters. Honestly the argument of whether or not the Setters are better than the removers/Magic Bounce users is mostly a game of prediction. It isn't overly difficult to get and keeps Rocks on the field just as it isn't overly difficult to remove them.

    What hard checks does Sawk have though? I guess like Spiritomb and Pelipper :\
    Banded Sawk 2hko's basically the entire tier AND has an absurd Knock Off. Scarf Sawk is one of the best late game sweepers. Fantastic abilites in Mold Breaker and Sturdy. I think Sawk is completely unmatched in terms of brokenness in NU right now.

    In my opinion, Sawk > Typhlosion > Malamar. Although Malamar got a tad easier to manage with Togetic and Pinsir dropping, it's still an absurdly stupid Pokemon.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2015
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  24. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    What's the opinion on Smashpass Gorebyss or Smash/Coil Huntail (gets Sucker Punch now, good power)
     
  25. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Alright lads! lets get this tier on a god damn diet.
    See the problem is we just have way too much Kentucky fried chicken..
    It sets up on a lot of the tier and any unfavorable matchup can give free pass of +1/+1/+2 without kin taking damage while the opponent brings in a check. The problem is
    1) their kin check is most likely not able to deal with the boosted threat that they hand pick
    2) the best answer to this strategy is phasing, but that has very little uses outside stoping combusken from beast moding your whole team (which is admittedly a pretty good singular use)
    KFC is pretty centralizing and systematic and requires very little support to pass efficiently. It far exceeds the power of gorebyss and other smashpassers because it finds way more opportunities to boost and end a game.
    the set.

    Combusken (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Speed Boost
    EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 112 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Bulk Up
    - Protect
    - Baton Pass

    112 spe to outspeed Virizion at +2, the rest is dumped into hp and defense. Max hp is needed for the largest sub possible and max D to allow kin to set up on most physical attackers; potentially setting up free subs if you gain enough boosts

    252+ Atk Mold Breaker Sawk Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 148+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 103-123 (31.7 - 37.9%) -- 92.6% chance to 3HKO

    252 Atk Virizion Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 148+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 76-90 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- 76.2% chance to 4HKO

    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Zen Headbutt vs. +1 252 HP / 148+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 122-146 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 148+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 102-120 (31.4 - 37%) -- 76.4% chance to 3HKO

    Basically these are the strongest physical attackers in the tier and Kin passes +2/+2/+3 on all of them in a neutral situation. Things that attempt to deal with it by boosting along side get beat by the simple fact that they cant keep up with the speed of speed boost when the kin passes to a counter. Surprising it with random roar works but is a band-aid solution to an overpowered mon
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2015
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  26. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Combusken isn't as OP as you're making it out to be. First off, Combusken needs to take a turn in order to set up the Bulk Up. Let's assume we're using the spread you have there, 252HP/0SpD. Now, let's take a look at the Special attackers in the tier, because using physical attackers on a set-up Pokemon is a terrible way to prove brokenness. "OMG can't kill Registeel after it curses 6 times with Sawk, must ban".

    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 276-328 (85.1 - 101.2%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 254-302 (78.3 - 93.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock (LO is a definite OHKO)
    252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Lanturn Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 306-360 (94.4 - 111.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ SpA Life Orb Clawitzer Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 354-421 (109.2 - 129.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Aurorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 270-318 (83.3 - 98.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Chatot Chatter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 221-265 (68.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    0 SpA Musharna Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 206-246 (63.5 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (gl if this is a CM set)
    252 SpA Choice Specs Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 196-232 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    0 SpA Uxie Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Combusken: 156-186 (48.1 - 57.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (has Thunder Wave if you wanna really fuck it up alongside Taunt).

    These are merely a few examples, using exclusively Pokemon currently over 4% on the special side of the spectrum. If you want physical shit, well, here you go with a few examples.

    252 Atk Archeops Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. +1 252 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 236-278 (72.8 - 85.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 214-254 (66 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (move does help for Levitate Pokes)
    252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. +1 252 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 324-384 (100 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 Atk Choice Band Dugtrio Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 218-258 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    In other words, doesn't really take that much to defeat it. And let's assume you get +1 in Atk/Def and +2 in Speed. While that may be scary with a few Pokemon (i.e. Malamar), if you're letting Combusken set up like that, maybe you should lose for it. There's no real reason to suspect Combusken in NU. There's plenty of ways to get past it (Taunt, Thunder Wave, simply bopping the shit out of it, etc).

    I want to see how things pan out after this Typhlosion suspect ends and a Sawk suspect takes place. It'll give a clearer picture of anything else being truly broken in the tier.
     
  27. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Might want to add defense evs on those calcs
    252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Sawk Earthquake vs. +1 252 HP / 112+ Def Eviolite Combusken: 182-216 (56.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    So even if sawk does not have to switch in, Kin gets to +1/+1/+2 and then can pass into a locked eq which will make his day. Non banded/ non eq sawk really needs to run away.

    Most of those mons do not prevent Combusken from passing at least +2/+2/+3 unless they can ohko and still that lets kin pass +1/+1/+2 as they switch in without having to take damage. Simply switching in an attacker is usually a bad way of dealing with it. Especially a choiced one seeing as protect+pass means they are gonna be able to go to something safely. Twave is pretty hard to hit it with considering it runs sub and protect. Speedboost allows it to outspeed all taunts at +2 meaning you cant outspeed if you switch your taunter in.
    Here are some of the mons that will need to switch out of Kin on an even matchup:
    Audino
    Virizion
    Gurdurr
    Vileplume
    Granbull
    Torkoal
    Malamar
    Scrafty
    Hariyama
    Pinsir
    Bronzong
    Klinklang
    Spiritomb
    Houndoom
    Rotom-C
    Crustle
    Sawk
    Garbodor
    Avalugg
    Sawsbuck
    Tangela
    Dusclops
    Togetic
    Glalie
    Sneasel
    Ambipom
    Accelgor
    Mawile
    Lickilicky
    Armaldo
    Gourgeist-XL
    Kangaskhan
    Regice
    Regirock

    This is a huge list to potentially get a free +1/+1/+2 pass on regardless of what they switch in. The choice mons especially that you listed like sawk and ty struggle because kin will win out speed and pass to a resist after a protect making it very hard to tag him with their coverage. Unless, you know, he chooses to boost because he lives their coverage.
    Because of evolite and investment very few mons can ohko or prevent kin from making a successful pass of at least one boost. Things like Mismagius and Eelektross can prevent it from setting up indefiantly but have to deal with a +1/+1/+2 (or +2/+2/+3 if they switch in) pass just to get kin down to low health. With very limited ways of counterplay, Combusken is certainly broken in nu
     
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  28. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    I was skeptical about Combusken at first, but then I tried it and it's actually pretty absurd
    Passing to Malamar or Stored Power CM Xatu, better targets probably exist but it still works
     
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  29. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    I think it's strong as well just looking at the raw numbers/data. In practice I've beat it all three times I've seen it (although it was only 2 different ppl using it) with my Mismagius running sub/taunt. It's all mind game stuff really, subbing on their protect then taunting on the bulk up but yeah. I can't give any further input until I see it myself.
     
  30. Cirno

    Cirno Romantic

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    okay idc about Sawk or w/e because there's something more pressing

    can we have confuse ray and chatter suspect
    please
     
  31. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I said it on server but I'll say it here too.

    I'm all for a chatter ban, but I really think people need to accept that pokemon is a game of luck almost as much as skill. I know I've been fully paralyzed for 4+ turns and lost because of it plenty of times, especially back when I played for 3+ hours a day.

    Slippery slope bullshit shenanigans aside if we go and ban confuse ray I'm just going to ask for a ban on things like paralysis since that has made me lose more games than a dynamicpunch or chatter confusion screwing me up.

    And before anyone gets defensive, getting mad about losing to hax like confuse ray and then wanting to ban it doesn't mean you're bad, I just don't think we need to do it. Maybe in forum tours just ban the move's use so you can have a more "competitive" environment, but as for the tier at large things like Sawk and even typhlosion are more pressing matters.
     
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  32. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Chatter is like Swagger in that it combines Confusion hax chance with actual damage, which means that instead of generally just wasting time as the opponent hits themselves for like 8% a turn like Confuse Ray does in most situations, you're actually putting them in KO range by haxing them out.

    I don't think Confuse Ray is worth the moveslot (confusion by itself is not really worth it since it doesn't accomplish much) but I could see Chatter being strong and obnoxious enough to be a problem (it doesn't help that Chatot gets to combine it with Boomburst, Nasty Plot, and/or Substitute).
     
  33. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    So maybe ban chatot as no guard dpunch does the exact same thing so by the same logic of the move ban; dmg + confuse is broken (which i don't think it is). Tbh it's a valid ban but there are things that are way more broken atm such as kin and sawk and probably malimar (virizion!). While chatot is annoying it's not really making the tier unplayable to a large degree like these threats are
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2015
  34. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    In all honesty,Malamar is the one thing I see being the most broken atm.Contrary Superpower and dark STAB has almost perfect coverage all by itself.This thing has only two weaknesses in bug and fairy,bug of which not a very common offensive typing (Scyther,Vivillion and Pinsir are the only bug abusers I see here.) and takes fairy type attacks from all defensive fairies bar Granbull with ease.Teams without these heavily rely on taunt to prevent it from resting up tho that doesn't stop Malamar from boosting it's stats to even greater levels.
    Thing is definitely worth a suspect imo,and maybe look into chickenpass as well.Taunt is one way to beat it but it's always got a speed boost in while you switch to your taunt user and in all reality isn't all that hard to pull off given Combushken efficiently tanks most all priorities in this tier with ease.
     
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  35. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    This is more of a maintenance suggestion, but with Shadow Tag banned from UU, I don't think there is a reason for Goth or Wob to remain banned anymore. There is a very small window of viability for both of them to be used (although Goth's will probably disappear once its evolved form drops down), and empty bans do nothing to help the tier. As a result, I'm asking for a Wobbuffet/Gothorita retest/unban.
     
  36. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Just want to head back to the Combusken point made earlier because I have thought it over. Is Combusken potent? Yes. Is the Pokemon itself broken? Not quite. I remain unconvinced that Combusken itself is broken. That being said, I believe the main thing it does (Bulk Up + BPass) creates something that is basically unable to be stopped (see: Malamar, Sawk, Virizion). So if we do eventually go down the "ban Combusken" path, I'd rather see Baton Pass banned instead of Combusken itself, as the Poke itself is by no means broken.

    Still on board with Sawk and Malamar going up on the block (even if Scyther's pretty good right now), in agreement with the Shadow Tag point made by @OUAzumarill, and kinda iffy on Chatter. After these 3 leave, things in the tier should be relatively stable for a bit, with Glalie being potent but pretty easy to stop thanks to all the fire types we currently have and things like Gurdurr, Scrafty, etc
     
  37. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Lets not forget the uses of baton pass other than passing stats mate. A combination of Combushkens bulk after applying evolite+swords dance+Baton pass is what makes its job of baton passing much easier compared to other baton passers.There do exist other baton passers like Ninjask for example tho which does pretty much the same job as Combushken,but whose massive fraility keeps it in check and makes it prone to being easily revenge killed by most common priority users out there barring the fighting ones. In most cases Ninjask can never afford to pull off a swords dance even, and this is even easier done given rocks are up on the field.Imo Combushken in nu is too good a baton passer to stay and one that almost always guarantees the work done.
    That said I still wouldn't wanna see this thing get a suspect before Malamar.Malamar is way too unhealthy imo for reasons I have stated above.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2015
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  38. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I have no idea what "the poke by itself means". If you want to ban bp in nu then you should make a case that it is a broken or uncompetitive move on everything that gets it. But if your argument is basically going to start and end at how easy it is for kin to set up, then it is the poke itself that is broken. Lots of things would be broken if they got certain moves; that's what a good movepool is and it is as much a part of a mon as its stats. Malamar is hella stupid right now and it doesn't help that it pairs so well with kin but then again so do lots of stuff that we all coincidentally think are broken. First it was a rest talking milo, then it was malamar, honestly give me a day once mar is banned and i'll find something else
    Suspect both malamar and kin for the sake of humanity
     
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2015
  39. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Is that a contradiction or do you agree with what others voice out as well? Either way I don't get what you're aiming for as everything regarding has been explained very well above.
     
  40. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Banning Baton Pass is opening a wound to save Combusken, of all things. The metagame won't be "ruined" without Baton Pass by any stretch but you're hurting a group of Pokémon for the sake of saving one Pokémon that will be at best "good" without BP. If you want to argue that Smashpassers are also "uncompetitive" or broken then I would welcome such a discussion. But for just Combusken I would definitely just ban the bird.
     
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