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Suspect Discussion: Typhlosion [Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Draciel, Jun 7, 2015.

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  1. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    Topah why are you comparing the power from a LO variant and a Specs variant (I know Magmortar has the coverage but seems unfair)

    Personally I think only a few mons being able to switch into Specs max hp Eruption is bad arguement. It's not hard to dent it with hazards or priority, then it's otherwise outclassed by Pyroar or Magmortar, I'd even go as far as to say Pansear (NP) is a better wall breaker.

    I'm not that concerned but I'm leaning on no ban, if Typhlosion was truly broken people would be running Lampent lol.
     
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  2. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Not to mention with rocks licki still loses to specs Magmortar fire blast and that LO can just hit it with focus blast after the initial hit. This is also assuming you can keep licki at 100% throughout the match, really it's not the best example to use since it loves to pass its wishes instead of using them itself unless it absolutely needs to. Licki is more of a bulky pivot because of that than a straight wall anyway since it still loses to certain other special attackers, typhlosion aside.

    Can we also stop assuming we can keep rocks off the field for 100% of the match? As nice a defogger as togetic and pelipper can be it is by no means a guarantee that typh will always have the red carpet laid out for it throughout the entire match.
     
  3. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    NU is the tier where it's very easy to remove hazards.
    So many spinners such as Claydol, Armaldo, Kabutops, Cryogonal, Avalugg and I might be passing some.
    And so many defoggers: Mantine, Togetic, Shiftry, and a lot of bulky eviolite users.

    I don't think we can assume rocks are always up when most the rocks users are weak to typh focus blast ( Rhydon, Registeel, Regirock) and they will be forced out very early to let the counters/check take a hit. That scenario can repeats many time and the counters will very fast be at low health and will fall to Typh specs, and still not letting the opponent to set up rocks .
     
  4. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I will give you kabutops is probably the best spinner in the tier, but many of the other spinners are pretty bad overall. Unless you are telling me Claydol Avalugg and Cryogonal beat Froslass Spiritomb Dusknoir/Dusclops and Mismagius as the tiers ghost types. They can beat Golurk part of the time (claydol has to have ice beam for him). Foresight Wartortle works I guess there too. But the tier has mostly shit spinners and ok enough defog users.

    SR users like Rhydon or Regirock for Typhlosion out instead of the other way around. They will take a huge hit but they can live it and hit it or para it (regirock can). Registeel should carry protect and scout out typh's attack if it is a 1 on 1 and act accordingly. C'mon carl you can do better than this.
     
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  5. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    NU's hazard removal is fine. Sandslash, Pelipper, Togetic, Siftry etc. are all capable hazard removal Pokémon. It's not 100% reliable but it's certainly not a bad set to have in your tier. Typh doesn't pair badly with most of them either. Typh doesn't have to be what's dealing with the rock setters either I don't see where this notion has come from. Naturally in a 1v1 situation a Regirock/Sdef Rhydon is going to smash a Typh to pieces but those Pokémon aren't overly threatening (especially not Regirock) to a large number of Pokémon and can be easily forced out by another team member. Of course "Typh isn't alone" is a shit argument but what I mean to allude to is that rockers almost never have recovery in this tier unless they're Miltank and they can't switch in on Typh more than once (maybe twice if they have to deal with absolutely nothing else but Typh) and not fear doing so. But a rocker being as it is they need to expose themselves for a turn every time they want to set rocks up. Now that's what they're used for and that's natural, but it's not ideal when you're trying to check a special wall-breaker and have no recovery to speak of.

    I think we've all agreed on what checks Typh and I think we've largely agreed on how effective the checks are in general, but what I think we disagree on is how suited this list of checks leaves Typh for the metagame. I would say over the past few days I've been somewhat convinced that the current state of Typh checks/counters doesn't leave it a game-ruining force like Moltres was all that time ago, but I do think it a Pokémon that may pull far more weight than it should in many situations. Previously our good friends Milotic, Jellicent, Druddigon etc kept Typh down and allowed it to be worked around by a wide range of teams very easily, but now the options are more limited, while I wouldn't say they're overly specific, it does leave a lot to be desired.

    I guess what I mean to say is that Typh has checks, it even has a couple pretty good checks, although I would say it has no real counters due to the crushing power of the specs set and the scarcity of recovery on Water/Rock-types in the tier. However it can circumvent many of these checks reasonably effectively, and many of them can be dealt with in similar ways to each other. For example Lanturn, Rhydon, Hariyama and to an extent Regirock can all be rendered useless for checking Typh or straight up dead in the case of Lanturn, by Dugtrio. This also applies for many of its minor checks like Omastar. It is not an argument of excessive team support to say that a single Pokémon's checks share common shortfalls and can be dealt with by similar team members, if Typh is only broken when paired with Dugtrio or something then so be it, but that doesn't change the impact it has on the metagame and you would be so very wrong to argue that Typh was bad without Dugtrio.
     
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  6. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    How much team support is Typh allowed? We're ruling out Lanturn as a counter because Dugtrio exists; SR and Spikes no longer work because Defog / spin exists; it doesn't have to worry about getting to median health because Healing Wish. This is fucking absurd.
    "(no using Healing Wish is not dedicating large amounts of team support just to have Typh work, it's just a nice bonus that makes it much much better)."

    You are literally sacrificing one of your Pokemon to give Typh 100% health if you don't have hazards up against you. There is a reason Healing Wish support is never brought up.

    Typh is extremely prediction reliant on doing anything against any of its checks, and if it doesn't OHKO most of them, so it loses a ton of momentum if it tries to use anything other than Eruption. One doesn't even need to check Typh excessively if you can keep hazards up or use offensive pressure (or Roar it in before hazards are removed if you're using "real stall") since it literally has to be brought into play at a perfect moment to work well. Typh can't do anything against offensive teams with any priority (which a good offensive team should have at least one of) or with any semblance of offensive pressure (the thing that has ruined Typh since literally DP NU). Typh is heavily reliant on being in the right situation at the right time, requiring good play or an incompetent opponent to net more than one kill with excellent match up and support.

    Between checks / counters like Lanturn, Gastrodon, Mantine (if you don't have SR neither do they), Regicock, Ninetales, Vibrava, Flareon, Hariyama, Houndoom, Poli, and the things that stop Typh from just spamming Eruption (Kabutops, Omastar, SpDef Rhydon, Rapidash, THE MIGHTY HEATMOR, Barbaracle, Carracosta, SLIGOOMY, and a bunch of decreasingly useful Pokemon). Even if Typh does predict correctly, and nails say Gastro with HP Grass, it doesn't OHKO, and you're now easy bait for a huge portion of the tier that can handle 60 bp non-stab grass move, including things like Pursuit Houndoom (who literally ruins Typh for the match). If you get stuck on Focus Blast, you're getting trapped by tomb, or set up on by Mismagius. Typh frequently gives away free turns which really hurts it.

    As I've already said, Typh has almost no defensive utility, since it needs to stay at high (or very low) health to actually be useful, so by using it you're effectively playing 5-6 in terms of switching options. If you add Dugtrio, now you're 4-6 (unless you're just really good at predicting electric attacks). Typh requires extreme prediction in order to function at its best, and even then requires a bunch of support to actually successfully wallbreak or clean. Typh also gives away free turns (see last paragraph), which when combined with the fact that you're down 2 useful defensive Pokemon makes running Typh a liability against anything with offensive pressure.

    Typh isn't overcentralizing because of the various ways to deal with it that fit well onto every team style. Overcentralization is barely an argument anyway, and if people don't want to run a resist to one of the better elemental types, then they probably shouldn't be deciding how tiers work, since you're required to run one in pretty much every tier since ADV, since Fire types have been consistently existent in tiers. It's a common offensive type, FWG is a super common core, its going to require at least some thought to build around.


    Typh's heavy reliance on prediction to hurt its checks and the severe consequences for using moves that aren't Fire Blast or Eruption disrupt Typh effectiveness offensively, while a complete lack of defensive utility and reliance on support hinder Typh as a synergistic member of a team. The amount of things that force Typh to use moves that aren't fire attacks means that Typh destroys offensive momentum, and leaves Typh extremely vulnerable to Pursuit trapping, set-up users, and a host of dangerous offensive things that would just love a free turn. Typh has far too steep a penalty to be broken in NU.
     
  7. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Anything the anti-ban side says is just going to repeat some part of devo's summation of why we think typhlosion is fine in the tier and we've already gone into detail earlier in the thread. So after the pro-ban side gets their summary of points in I really think a decision should be made very soon whether it gets banned or not. Nearly everything that can be said has been already on both sides.

    I kind of want to get to a more in depth discussion about combusken pass, not a stretch to say it's more pressing than this.
     
  8. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    While I will say that using obscure checks to something is generally a sign of over-centralization (or at the very least not a very good anti-ban argument), I think it must be made a point that CB Relicanth is awesome regardless of the existence or lack thereof with Typhlosion.
     
  9. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Not to sound like a dick but AV Thick Fat Grumpig checking Typh is hardly relevant in any way to anything. The fact being that AV Grumpig is niche at absolute best, awful is probably more like it. Walrein is slightly better but still just not good.

    Yes CB Relicanth beats Typh that only uses Eruption in a 1v1. It'd be infinitely more relevant to say that Barbaracle or Omastar do the same.
    252 SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion Eruption (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Relicanth: 115-135 (33.7 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    Although not THAT well. That gets 1 switch-in with Rocks up. 2 without.
    If you have one of these mon and the Typh user doesn't have a good check for them (specifically the Shell Smashers) then yes you can force Typh into a prediction situation. If the Typh user has at least a check then they can risk Eruption for the 30-40% depending on the mon on the switch-in and not be that much worse off should their prediction "fail", of course clicking Focus Blast/HP Grass and being wrong could mean the end of Typh depending on what's in at the time.

    Also Healing Wish isn't "literally sacrificing a Pokémon" in the way you seem to want to imply. Fact is that if Healing Wish is all Mesprit ever does the first turn you send it out, you're using the thing wrong. HW Mesprit still has 3 other moves and a 3 move Mesprit is better than most other mon. Same goes for Mush I suppose.
     
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  10. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Actually it takes less than half against mega glalie double edge and makes it explode or glalie loses, checks SD Virizion and wins against CM thanks to psyshock, checks fighting types on virtue of being a psychic type and is one of very few things that reliably switches into a Magmortar attempting to break walls as well. Obviously there are also other things I'm leaving out as well. Give it wish support with mega audino or something and it could work. With less support than Relicanth can outside of checking fire types, anyway.

    It isn't as unviable as you make it out to be, while it isn't "good" can still be used to decent effect since it checks mons well outside of typhlosion and other fire types. I don't see a reason to dismiss it so easily, considering we are rating things in the viability list like Garbodor higher than fucking Qwilfish because it checks some S ranked mons "better."
     
  11. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    First of all I'll address the last part. Bringing arguments from completely different discussions that I haven't even shown myself to agree with is a bit questionable, I'd rather this didn't happen.

    AV Grumpig is bad. I'm sorry it's just not good. It doesn't check SD Virizion unless it's the Stone Edge/ZHB/CC variant and even then it need to be Lum SD and at literally 100% for you to live the +2 Stone Edge with a decent roll. After rocks under those perfect conditions you have a 30% chance of living including Stone Edge's miss factor and ignoring crit chance. Of course they won't always use SD they might just CC and do ~42% to your mon that has no recovery and then switch out because a 90 SpA psychic with a meh movepool isn't hard to deal with. It doesn't check other fighting-types well because they all have Knock Off and still band Sawk 2KOs you with CC anyway. I grant you it beats fire types. Even if Magmortar does 40% with EQ.

    But that's enough about Grumpig,,,
     
  12. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Not to put too fine of a point on this, but is this thread being ended soon? Last post was about a week and a half ago, and basically anything that needs to be said about Typhlo has been said.

    @da raikage @Draciel
     
  13. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    This suspect hasn't been abandoned; since we've failed to reach a consensus regarding Typhlosion on the suspect, a council has been chosen based on the posts in this discussion and their NU meta-game knowledge in general to decide Typh's fate in the tier. As soon as we have their votes on hand, a decision will be made, so please be patient!
     
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  14. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Typhlosion Voting:

    Position: Ban (barely)

    Typhlosion finds its best use as a Specs user. Its exceptional power with Eruption at 150/112 power and 100% accuracy leaves it with only a few checks, most of them checks purely because they can deal with Eruption (things like Kabutops, Omastar, Houndoom, Regirock) which lose to Focus Blast mainly. Standard special walls like Audino can't stand against specs Eruption, taking around 60-65% on a good day. With the loss of Jellicent and Milotic Typh lost its two reliable counters with good recovery leaving it with a collection of checks ranging from tenuous to good. Houndoom, Omastar, offensive Rhydon etc being on the tenuous end and Mantine, Flareon and Rest SDef Lanturn being on the good end. This range of checks is known and has been explored in the suspect thread and in my opinion the checks are slightly too unreliable, dependent on poor recovery, vulnerable to similar coverage moves or dependent on rocks weakening Typh when NU's hazard removal is easily passable.

    A note on team support. While it isn't essential for Typh to function it does prove extremely helpful in many aspects of Typh's functioning. Removal of checks by Dugtrio is extremely effective, as is support like Baton Pass or Healing Wish afforded by a few strong Pokémon in NU such as Musharna, Mesprit and Togetic which are far from hard to fit on the same team as a Pokémon like Typh.

    Typhlosion: Do not ban

    I've been on the fence for a really long time about this and I haven't fully made up my mind yet, but I'm not fully convinced that Typhlosion is broken:

    - defensive teams can easily throw in 1-2 hard checks or counters, and there's a big enough variety of defensive counters that have their own way of staying healthy, be it by themselves or the wish support they're eventually going to be passed.

    - offensive teams only have 1 or 2 hard counters to turn to that don't suck momentum, but they also have offensive checks to turn to that can force Typhlosion out. Even if they can't do it for long, once stealth rock removes typh's window of eruption spam it just becomes an ordinary fast fire-type

    - Typhlosion has a window of eruption spam that makes it really strong but for me this just makes it a very good Pokemon and simply a much better fire-type than something like Pyroar. Typhlosion still has to get in on double switches most of the time and SR + offensive pressure means that this window will not remain open for very long.

    there are a bunch of reasons that have made me sway over to the pro ban side at times, but these reasons above have made my doubts about typh's brokenness stick out. and because I'm not completely convinced that Typhlosion is broken, I'm going to be voting dnb.

    Position: Ban

    Typhlosion sets itself apart from the other fires because unlike Magmortar, it's fast and unlike Pyroar, it has good moves to use. Typhlosion's best set right now is specs as it is incredibly difficult to switch into; but the scarf set is plenty viable too. The list of viable checks/counters is very low and people are often forced to use subpar pokemon just to stop Typhlosion. The problem grows when you add Dugtrio, who conveniently removes almost all of Typhlosion's answers. Typhlosion does require support in the form of hazard control, but hazard control is much easier to come by this gen (Skuntank/Togetic/Shiftry/Mantine/Xatu to name a few good ones) and should be on every team that has a SR weak mon anyways. Additional support can be provided in the form of slow volt-turn, but isn't required, only appreciated. Typhlosion often forces 50/50s (Will he click Eruption or Focus Blast/Hidden Power Grass?) which is more painful for the receiving party as if they predict right, Typh can just switch out and if they predict wrong they lose a pokemon. Typhlosion does have some problems getting in safely, often relying on either revenging, coming in on a double switch, or slow volt-turn (Or baton pass I suppose).

    Position: Ban

    Typhlosion is definitely a force to be reckoned with in NU. It has a nice 109 base Special Attack, and a decent 100 base Speed, plus access to a threatening move in Eruption. The most commonly sported sets are the Choice Specs and Choice Scarf sets, which both have two distinct uses – the Specs set acts as a nuke, letting very little that doesn’t resist it survive, whilst the Scarf set acts as a late game cleaner, clearing up weakened foes.

    Typhlosion has access to a variety of coverage moves that helps it get through several of its checks, such as Focus Blast for Houndoom, Omastar, Kabutops, Rhydon, and Regirock, Earthquake for Lanturn, Flareon and Ninetales, and Extrasensory for Poliwrath and Hariyama. This means that its checks have to be wary about switching into Typhlosion for fear of being KO’d and allowing Typhlosion to freely put the rest of the team in fear.

    However, this does not mean that Typhlosion is completely unstoppable. Pokémon such as Cinccino and Virizion leave little room for it to come in, and are fast enough to outpace the Specs set, forcing it to switch out upon the revenge kill. While revenge killing is usually tossed aside in suspect discussions because it implies that the suspect has already gotten a kill, it is an event that occurs in almost every Pokémon match, and I feel it’s important to at least acknowledge how different Pokémon act in regards to revenge killing. Being forced out is something Typhlosion does not want, especially with a weakness to Stealth Rock, and being affected by Spikes and Toxic Spikes. It is also reliant on having high HP for most of its nuking ability, and although Specs Fire Blast is still a force to be reckoned with, this means it must usually be carefully switched in, or there is a risk of Typhlosion being weakened too much…

    … which brings me on to team support. Of course, given the inherent weakness to hazards, it isn’t uncommon to see some form of defogger or rapid spinner alongside Typhlosion. This kind of team support isn’t hugely because of Typhlosion, but just generally seen on most teams. Next comes Dugtrio, which is a great trapper and can threaten Ninetales, Rapidash, Flareon and Lanturn, which usually can switch into Typhlosion with little fear. It also has uses outside of just beating Typh checks, such as beating most frail Pokémon. As for Healing Wish, that’ll be talked about later.

    From my own experiences with Typhlosion, it has a very big presence in matches. Specs tends to usually do a lot more than Scarf, and even though there are things that can take its eruption, it’s usually only once they can switch in without having to use Rest. Specs Typhlosion doesn’t do much against more offensively inclined teams though, due to the offensive pressure from faster Pokémon that leave it little space to switch in and accomplish much.

    It is also a threat even without defog/spin or Dugtrio support, as having used it without either to a good amount of success has shown. This was with only Healing Wish Mesprit support, which is a great set (though I never got to use HW much) and allows Typh a free switch in with healing. Though, even though Typhlosion wants high HP, I have found that you shouldn’t be so stingy about requiring it. It can still nuke and lure in its checks and beat them without having 100% HP. To summarise, Typhlosion does not necessarily require team support to be an extreme threat, but it is definitely helpful.

    However, I have also used only Hariyama as a Typh check/counter, and dealt with it easily sometimes due to misplays on the opponent’s part, with other times the Typh being a big threat because Hariyama could not constantly keep its health up. Typhlosion also checks Typhlosion but that’s like Druddigon checking Druddigon. It could also very rarely get statused by Thunder Wave or other statuses because there is no real time that it is out for that to happen.

    Typhlosion is a very strong Pokémon with a few flaws and sometimes has a hard time getting in, especially against heavy offense, but after a review of Typh’s strengths and weaknesses on top of my own experiences, and some heavy consideration (it was very close), I believe Typhlosion should be BANNED from NU.

    Position: Do not ban

    So, Typhlosion. I don't really care if this thing stays or goes, but I don't think it's such a bad thing in the meta game when you have like at least 3 other more unpredictable/bullshit mons still around like Virizion, Malamar, and the fattest fuck in Mega Audino in which a hell of a lot of Specs/Banded mons can't even break that shit without multiple pokes or having a CM Psyshock user or something.

    But, anyway Typhlosion is the main point here. The thing is faster than most of the tier in general, that's a plus. It's also got a high ass Sp.Att stat for the tier with 109 base Sp.Att. While that's all fine and dandy, it makes for an amazing wallbreaker or general cleaner (which a lot of Pokemon with relatable stats/movesets are capable of in every tier, that doesn't make those broken). What hinders Typhlosion really is about 3 or 4 things that people actually need to take into account when team building. It's Stealth Rock weak, cutting a fair chunk into it's Eruption spam. Going from 100% health to 75% health drops it's damage output by around 20-25% on Eruption on average, that's taking into account things that are neutral to it or at least have decent special defensive bulk. Less % reduction from things that have higher Sp.Def or resist Eruption. More like they'll take 15% less there. Considering that'll happen every time it takes SR damage to come in, and the fact it can't switch in to any move safely unless you are using one of the slow Baton Pass, U-Turn, or Volt Switch users, it'll most likely have to come in after you sack something. You can also use BOOM to come in if you want to try and kill something to get Typhlosion in, or you'd have to run healing wish which means you are running Mesprit or Musharna with it, unless people find a way to make Mr. Mime or Clefairy or Chimecho a lot better on general teams to support a Typhlosion based team (hint, Clefairy is usable, the other two...not so much). In which case you might as well just run with CM Baton Pass Musharna. If you want to bring up NP Baton Pass Togetic making Typhlosion more broken, you might want to look at Togetic or BP restrictions than Typhlosion because that kind of set leans to allowing some potential stuff like Jynx, Virizion, Raichu, and various odds and ends broken with scarf sets or based on their abilities, because they can do a shit ton to almost everything in the current metagame at +2 Sp.Att just its the danger of actually getting in there safely to set up without dying, and for the most part they force switches in general, so Virizion/Jynx would have high chances to set up subs too if they ran their standard LO sets. Just they can afford to run say an extra move now, over having their set up move.

    Anyway back to Typhlosion, in it's truest form, it comes down to this. Specs will nuke Defensive based teams, but it has a hard time against every offensive based team that remembers that speed is the most important stat with regards to their offenses being second almost every time. Meaning that an Offensive team that lacks any fundamentally fast pokemon to actually work off of will be hindered, as well as not having hazards, because their base for working is helping their sweepers out by reducing any opponent's HP by any means as well as breaking sashes for the few that exist with them so they don't get counter swept. While Assvest users can't switch in, in 1 on 1's they will heavily neuter Typh if it tries to kill them, as long as they have in general 70+% HP.

    Reverse this for the Scarf set, Offensive teams will have mild troubles with this, because it's pretty damn hard to outspeed a base 100 Scarf user in this tier. The best way offensive teams have to deal with this is SR/Spikes + Priority in general. Which to be fair is that HW or Hazard removers for a Scarf Typh is a must at all times, because without the Specs Power, it's pretty pathetic as a cleaner if it loses Eruption power. Priority is actually pretty good in the tier too, which means that Typh has to be aware of various priority users that will force it to switch or take some heavy handed damage on both sets from Sucker Punch, Aqua Jet, heck even Quick Attack is useful on a few Pokemon. As far as Defensive teams go, Scarf Typhlosion lacks the power to actually break them with how bulky and well made teams can be. Typh requires the help of hazards itself to actually be able to hope to break these Pokemon, otherwise it has to enlist help elsewhere to give it fundamental power (re: CM Passers/NP passer) just to make them more beatable.

    Downside to both sets, it's CHOICE LOCKED. Choice locked Eruption/Fire Blast while great for spamming because there's only a small handful of Pokemon checks to it, means very little if it's in the power deadzone of 34% to roughly 70% of it's health for Eruption, because it's power is drastically reduced in there, from when it's full HP. HP Grass/Focus Blast can be useful for removing said checks/counters (mostly Rhydon/Lanturn), but even if those die, Typh gives free momentum to opposing teams. Depending on the locked move that's just asking for something that can set up for free to come in. Locked on Eruption/Fire Blast? Hello Shell Smash Barbaracle, Omastar, Carracosta, Gorebyss, Huntail, SD Kabutops. HP Grass/Focus Blast? Hello Calm Mind Sigilyph, Spiritomb, Mesprit, Uxie, Musharna, Bat Thing (Swoobat?), Swords Dance Scyther (not that good anymore), Pinsir (moderately good), SD or CM Virizion (on HP Grass), SD Mawile (HP Grass again), Klinklang (HP Grass), SD Pawniard (HP Grass, this thing is actually usable too), RP Golurk (Focus Miss). IIRC Ninetales is still NU, Flash Fire that's a NP user and has Flash Fire if it wanted to fuck with Typhlosion. All these are highly useful offensive options too, so they'll fit onto a fair few Offensive and Balanced teams, while something like Tomb + Sigilyph can fit onto Defensive teams.

    Only way to not let stuff like this happen (if a player is good and carries any of those kinds of Pokemon that set up fairly easily on Choice Locked types especially one that has to rely on HP Grass for a coverage and gets shit upon in return), would be as Raikage said using Flame Plate/Charcoal/etc (or using Expert Belt or something) to Bluff, but any good player who bothers to actually calc the damage done, or knows the damages, should be able to single out when Specs/Scarf aren't there. Or, you can assume you are fighting a scrub and they didn't invest into max Sp.Att if damages seem off, that's a very likely thing to assume in casual matches. The damages between Specs, Scarf, and Plate all have very notable min/maxes, and they barely miss overlapping in terms of damages.

    TL;DR - Typhlosion is hampered by the most common Hazard in every tier. The Hazard control in NU are mostly decent at best, outside like 4 options (Xatu, Skuntank, LORD PRINPLUP, and Knight of the Sky Pelipper). One of those has to actually rely on prediction skills and being right though, and it's not exactly the bulkiest or got the most survival skills if people expect it coming. It's ability to "win" is defined by what set it runs and the teams it fights. It gives free momentum to well built enemy teams who can capitalize on it being choice locked into a specific move. Otherwise it's everything you could want in a wallbreaker, despite the mass amount of team supports it needs (Hazard removal, back up HP recovery/cleric, general bulky and slow pivots, could use it's own hazard support, but doesn't need it, and quite possibly Dugtrio just for fire types to trap, despite that Dugtrio itself can't switch into any fire types unless it runs sash and there aren't hazards).

    Really I don't care if it goes or not, but I don't think it should be banned based on how easy it actually is to play around in general, if you actually build a good team.

    Position: Ban

    Typhlosion is an unmatched offensive powerhouse in NU, and can run a bunch of different sets including Choice specs./Scarf/Flame plate. Specs Typhlosion is a beast and it's incredibly hard to switch into a specs 150 BP Eruption(even with SR, it becomes 112 BP which isn't bad at all for a 100% accuracy move). Moreover, the ease with which that move is spammable makes it really hard for opposing teams to counter the onslaught. It might not be as over-centralizing as some other mons previously in NU, but players are forced to run one or more dedicated checks to stop it. The fact that all of them are slower/can be beaten with appropriate coverage move and can't repeatedly switch in on Fire-spam makes it really hard to stop. Scarf Typhlosion isn't bad either, with Eruption at full health still doing massive damage and 100 base speed making it an ideal late-game cleaner. The threat of Typh is compounded with Dugtrio in the tier, which can trap and remove a bunch of it's so-called checks, like Lanturn/Houndoom etc allowing it to clean afterwards. Hazards are a problem, but controlling hazards is easier in NU with more than viable defog users in Skuntank/Togetic/Pelipper/Mantine and Xatu obviously; it has some trouble getting in safely but when it does it is pretty hard to contain.


    Position: Do not ban

    Typh relies heavily on prediction to get around its checks and do lasting damage to its counters. Typh also relies on Choice items to be as good as it is (one might as well be using Pyroar or Magmortar if you're using LO or ebelt). Typh is also extremely weak to entry hazards, and has a very hard time switching in. These combined add a huge risk to running and using Typh. You have to rely heavily on prediction to get anywhere against a remotely competent team, and even if you predict correctly, you've lost a huge amount of momentum and aren't guarenteed a OHKO against things like Rhydon or Gastrodon. Because Typh's coverage moves are either weak, or have a good number of resists or immunities, Typh ends up giving away a ton of free turns that are extremely easy to punish, especially with Pursuit. Losing momentum is even worse when running Typh because Typh has almost no defensive usage, meaning Typh leaves you 5-6 in terms of defensive switching options. Typh is also heavily reliant on support, especially Defog / Spin and Dugtrio. The riskiness of Typh and the amount of support it needs creates a situation where Typh needs a lot of preparation to get into play at 100% in order to clean or wallbreak. This isn't guaranteed to happen every match and is extremely limiting to Typh. Typh also has a good number of checks / counters: Lanturn, Gastrodon, Mantine, Regicock, Ninetales, Vibrava, Flareon, Hariyama, Houndoom, Poliwrath, Kabutops, Omastar, SpDef Rhydon, Rapidash, THE MIGHTY HEATMOR, Barbaracle, Carracosta, SLIGOOMY and a number of other decreasingly useful Pokes. Obviously not all of these are great, but they can all force Typh into the dangerous prediction and momentum draining game that Typh has very much trouble winning.

    Something as risky as Typh, gives away as many free turns as Typh, requiring as much support as Typh does, and with as many checks / counters as Typh has is not broken and should not be banned from NU.

    This is basically a stripped down version of my suspect post, so that is a good bit more fleshed out.

    The verdict of the council is ban, with a 4-3 majority. So from now on Typhlosion will be banned from the NU tier.

    This has been one of the most exciting suspect discussions in recent PO history, so thanks everyone who participated in this!
     
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