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Suspect Discussion: Shadow Tag (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by NananaBatman, Jun 9, 2015.

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  1. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    ThatMushroom is quite the artist.

    Discuss the possibility of Shadow Tag being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Shadow Tag's impact on the metagame. State your opinion on wether Shadow Tag be banned (or not) from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Shadow Tag in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    If you aren't sure about posting, this guide would probably be a good read.
     
    Edna, NaCl, Aurist and 3 others like this.
  2. snaga

    snaga .

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    Pretty much just going to c/p this from the potential suspect thread


    Wobb isn't too bad but it gurantee's itself atleast 1 kill a game and it can usually pick out what mon it wants to kill and do if efficiently.
    Goth on the other hand is over looked so much. It doesn't just trap "weak walls"
    Blissey
    P2
    Chesnaught
    Tentacruel
    Forre (no volt switch)
    Gligar(no U-turn)
    Florges/Aromatisse
    swampert/gastro (no roar on pert)
    suicune
    Umbreon loses 1v1
    goodra
    milotic
    I'm probably missing some, this is just off the top of my head
    Raikou locked into hp ice/extrasensory
    Raptor locked into cc
    Scarf tini locked into bolt strike
    Mega sceptile (LOL)
    Scarf ape locked into cc
    Draco locked hydreigon
    HJK locked mienshao
    and the list goes on and on
    Seeing goth in team preview alone makes your opponent hesitant to go for certain moves or killing certain mons with a move just because of the fact that they're scared of being trapped by goth.
    Stall may not be popular in uu atm but goth makes it completely useless. Shadow Tag in general greatly impacts on how you play certain mons and it isn't healthy for uu atm.
    BAN
     
  3. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Shadow tag is quite an interesting ability, as it eliminates one of the key elements of competitive battling, switching. Throughout my time on the UU ladder, I haven't quite experienced Shadow Tag as no one would use it, and I personally never use it on my teams. But, I have heard alot of people complain about it's presence on the meta, and quite frankly it just makes it "uncompetitive" and "not fun". It does not require much skill for the ST mon to come in on a wall or choice locked mon, and start setting up/cripple/remove on said mon. With this ability, it can create an advantage for many players to trap and remove checks and counters of their sweepers, allowing them to win the game. The two most prominent ST mons are arguably Wobbuffet, and Gothorita.

    Wobbuffet:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Wobbuffet @ Custap Berry
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 52 HP / 232 Def / 224 SpD
    Bold Nature
    - Destiny Bond
    - Mirror Coat
    - Counter
    - Encore


    Wobbuffet is quite an annoyance to the many set up sweepers in the tier. With the access of moves such as Counter, Destiny Bond and Magic Coat, Wobb can effectively put an end to an opposing sweep. Most people will suggest that Wobb has low defenses an is not able to take a hit, but it does have access to an extremely high 190 HP stat, which really helps it take opposing hits and retaliate back. The thing that makes ST on Wobb banworthy however, is due to the new gen Custap Berry. With this berry, Wobb can essentially take a hit, and priority Destiny Bond the next turn to remove the opposing mon. It almost always guaranties a KO, and that is the problem. Wobb can also cripple walls with encore, allowing the sweepers in your team have an easier time to set up.

    Calcs:
    252 Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 269-317 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- 81.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 250-295 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 52 HP / 224 SpD Wobbuffet: 229-271 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 172-204 (32.2 - 38.2%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 52 HP / 224 SpD Wobbuffet: 265-315 (49.6 - 58.9%) -- 73.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Feraligatr Waterfall vs. 52 HP / 232+ Def Wobbuffet: 329-387 (61.6 - 72.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


    Gothorita:

    [​IMG]

    Gothorita @ Eviolite
    Ability: Shadow Tag
    EVs: 252 HP / 208 Def / 48 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Psyshock
    - Thunderbolt
    - Calm Mind
    - Rest

    Gothorita is an interesting poke. One might think that this NFE has nothing to offer, but it is in fact quite a fearsome foe. With an Eviolite, Goth becomes surprisingly bulky, taking some powerful hits. Unlike Wobb, Goth can actually sweep the opposing team thanks to Calm Mind. Just bring it in a wall or choiced lock mon, and start setting up. Rest furthers it's longevity, and now we have a fearsome sweeper. It has the same attributes as it's mother Gothitelle, even being a tad bulkier, and since she was banned, Gothorita should be banned aswell, due to the fact that she can get to +6 with ease and prepare to sweep unprepared teams.

    Calcs:
    252+ Atk Life Orb Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 181-214 (55.8 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 154-183 (47.5 - 56.4%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO
    252 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 48 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 135-159 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Alakazam Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 48 SpD Eviolite Gothorita: 169-200 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0- Atk Umbreon Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 208+ Def Eviolite Gothorita: 50-60 (15.4 - 18.5%) -- possible 6HKO
    +2 0 SpA Gothorita Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Salamence: 162-192 (48.9 - 58%) -- 96.9% chance to 2HKO
    +4 0 SpA Gothorita Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 153-180 (44.7 - 52.6%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO

    I feel ST is an uncompetitive ability and is deserving to be banned.

     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2015
  4. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Honestly whenever a shadow tag discussion comes up I find it absolutely irrelevant to post calculations against anything. You use wobbuffet or any goth for one reason: something on your team doesn't like a certain wall or offensive pokemon, and they get rid of it. There is no "but some pokemon can run u-turn," no "it may be able to trap this mon but all of these offensive pokemon can kill it," it just comes in on whatever it can remove and does its job. Both pokemon can be dead weight against many offensive teams, but a lot of balance suffers from shadow tag because our walls and pivots are much more vital to our teams. And, gonna channel my inner @ThatMushroom here, goth completely laughs at stall. Comes in on whatever can't kill it, removes it, then waits for something else that can't stop it.

    It just takes away a fundamental part of pokemon and literally traps whatever it wants to. This isn't like Dugtrio, who's about as frail as a deo-a and actually pretty weak. If you don't need to use goth for that match it just means that your pokemon didn't need their counters out of the way.

    Wobbuffet pretty much works on the same principle, just with choiced pokemon or those that run all out attacking sets.

    I just don't see how you can really defend the ability as a whole. It would have broken Chandelure if it was its hidden ability this gen, gothitelle is already banned and gothorita works on the same exact principle. Pretty sure wobbuffet can be banned in LU if enough people started playing with it and it's not bad here either, just more restricted in uses. Let's just ban what's actually broken and allow Gothitelle back in the lower tiers.
     
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  5. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    i'll just cp my original post.

    been sayin this even before regular gothitelle was suspected, shadow tag is broken as fuck. it doesn't matter at all if gothorita is low in usage, it does exactly what gothitelle did and sometimes even better because of eviolite. its ability to brainlessly trap key walls is fucking retarded. and that argument of "its only good vs stall" is garbage. it's not only stall teams that use walls. balance often has shit like arcanine, tentacruel, florges, umbreon, etc and goth traps all of them and begins to set up for free. the best set for it is psyshock/tbolt/cm/rest physically defensive imo. it has a significant advantage over 2/3 playstyles in the tier (balance and stall) and is even usable vs ho, being able to trap draco locked or cc locked mons. wobb is obv different but it isnt that far off in terms of aids. it excels vs balance and ho but isn't that amazing vs stall, regardless, stall isn't even used and these two add stupid 50/50 scenarios of "predict the st mon or stay in predicting him to predict me to double on st mon". the shit promotes extremely lazy teambuilding and is for the overall health of the tier very detrimental, fuck pairing my threat with another threat that can safely switch into threat 1's counters, i'll throw on goth and not worry about it. supporting ban.
     
  6. E.T.

    E.T. K I N G Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    On Wobbuffet, I don't think Shadow Tag is broken. It can trap and revenge kill choiced Pokemon. It can Encore stuff and KO it with Counter/Mirror Coat, or it can potentially give a teammate a chance to setup. However, it doesn't have reliable recovery, and is pretty limited to what it can do against the things it traps. The problem I see with Shadow Tag is that when it's given to another Pokemon with decent bulk and a means of setup and recovery, it becomes broken because the Pokemon can be used to eliminate almost anything on the opposing team. Specifically, it can be used to eliminate walls which can make it very easy for a teammate to sweep later. In my opinion, looking at UU right now, a ban of Gothorita would probably also solve the current Shadow Tag problem; however, Shadow Tag is the problem, not Gothorita. Therefore, I support a ban of Shadow Tag.
     
    nidomega likes this.
  7. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Another upside is that if Shadow Tag is banned, Gothitelle can be unbanned and used in lower tiers (and Wob can be used, although it will probably be not very good). It also solves the problem of something random like Doublade gaining it in a future event and being broken as fuck.
     
  8. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    This discussion died fast rip.

    Shadow Tag takes away a big part of what makes pokemon a competitive game. Trapping makes it ridiculously easy to defeat key components of the opposing team, at which point it often falls apart very easily. Shadow Tag may not be completely broken, but it is very uncompetitive, and therefore unhealthy for our meta.

    From now on, Shadow Tag will be Banned from ORAS UU.
     
    bugzinator likes this.
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