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[Monotype] Aegislash Suspect

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by sulcata, Jun 19, 2015.

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  1. greymatter1234

    greymatter1234 Trimmin' the tall grass.

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    Yeah that list is just how different types can deal with Aegislash, not mons that render Aegi close to useless.

    All those calcs are done against the same EV spread, with 252 HP and 252+ SpD (The most common set that I see) . A lot of those 2HKOs will become OHKOs against an offensive Aegi.

    (Also mixape with close combat and fire blast=rip steel.)

    Most players will use Fusion Bolt/Another coverage move with Victini when a Heatran switchin is expected. Most variants can 2HKO heatran, thus killing it before it does anything (Most Victini is scarfed). There is just nothing else in steel that can take V-create. Just nothing.

    Tbh I still say while Aegislash is a top mon, it isn't absolutely broken. Most good players can play around it. Lack of reliable recovery wears it down quickly, since steel doesn't get any clerics and support mons. A lot (I mean a really, really LOT) of Aegislash's survivability depends on Heatran being alive.

    And doing a little comparison again (Don't call me a noob for this), Heatran can run more sets (Substitute, Taunt, Scarf sweeper, Special wall, Rocks support etc etc) and checks a lot of mons, and makes some moves (Will-o-wisp, fairy moves) utterly unusable till it goes down. Aegislash seriously doesn't do much more than that. It runs a variety of sets, it checks a lot of things, but it still has it's weaknesses.

    So I'm still anti-ban.
    By the way since Mega Metagross (Now THAT, is broken) will likely get banned after this, steel monos are just going to plummet from their seat of glory. They lose quite a lot of it's power if both Aegislash and MegaGross gets banned. And then soon, we will be down to suspecting Talonflame(For almost guaranteeing victory against grass/fighting/bug) and other flying mons, as flying (and probably psychic and dragon (I mean, how broken is Kyurem-B?) as well ) monos are going to run rampant after those 2 are banned.

    So maybe, a test ban of both Aegislash and MegaGross (Just banning Aegi probably won't change too much) will show how much the metagame is affected by the bans, and if it still remains stable after the test bans, feel free to make the bans permanent.
     
  2. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    252 hp/252 sdef is generally not a good spread, unless you're running weird toxic stall shit. You need SpAtk investment so Shadow Ball is actually threatening. Usually it's something like 232 HP / 20 Atk / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef Quiet Nature, although one can tailor it to their needs adding more bulk for specific things.

    Infernape is only on fire and fighting, and is only one mon who can be worn down especially on fighting. I don't see your point here. This literally does not aid your argument at all.

    Victini should never carry Fusion Bolt as it's completely outclassed. Bolt Strike is powerful, but you need to predict correctly. Not to mention most Victini end up being choiced due to how much it benefits the Pokemon, so King's Shield scouts it pretty well. Victini is almost definitely switching into rocks, meaning that it's in shadow sneak range after just switching in twice.

    252 Atk Victini Bolt Strike vs. 252 HP/4 Def Leftovers Heatran: 113 - 133 (29.3 - 34.5%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers

    For someone who spat out so many calcs, I'd think you'd at least know this is basically a 4HKO on probably one of the most consistent Heatran sets (spdef support). So after an extremely risky prediction, at best you've done chip damage to Heatran which was basically only walling Victini anyway. At worst the opponent sets up Stealth Rocks or figures out that you're choiced and makes you eat residual damage with Ferrothorn. Or you could miss. If you use Fusion Bolt then you're probably only getting a 6HKO from full. I don't think non-Choiced is a bad set per say, but 9 times 10 it does less work than a Choiced set overall.

    "Playing around" Aegislash is clearly an uphill battle in which one needs to get multiple risky predictions to get rid of it. It doesn't make games unwinnable and yes, you will find situations in which it gets KO'd! That's what happens to Pokemon in a battle. The issue is how much it universally (across many types) restricts teambuilding and forces the opponent into bad situations with little to no risk and effort.

    There will not be a test ban. Hypotheticals about the future state of the metagame and potential bans in the future are very irrelevant here. If Steel becomes weaker, then so be it. If you want to talk about the metagame as a whole, then go to the general discussion.

    I've explained this once and I guess I'll explain it again. Flying already has the advantage against Grass/Fighting/Bug, so Talon's presence here doesn't matter. Fire dominates Grass and Bug anyway, so Talonflame doesn't matter here either. Note that this isn't solely due to type match up, as some of that can be overcome. Rather, these are such solid and reliable types, that beating them with a poor match up is next to impossible with or without Talonflame. Fire against Fighting is the only matchup that Talonflame notably skews of those mentioned, and Talon can't last forever unless it somehow gets a rare chance to Roost. Fighting in turn has Terrakion and Keldeo who can plow through Fire.
     
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  3. greymatter1234

    greymatter1234 Trimmin' the tall grass.

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    I actually meant Bolt Strike, Fusion Bolt was a mistake :{
    But it's still a 3HKO.

    Well, I've basically exhausted my arsenal of arguements here, so unless @Carlmurray can do something (Help me out man! ), looks like Aegislash will be banned.

    How sad.

    Btw then *Definitely* ban Hoopa-B before Joy can make a proper team with it :v
     
  4. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    The aim is to discuss about it, my position about it not being banned should not affect the discussion about how broken it is or not.
    Both sides made very valid points, and we should not forget that Aegi stays a high tier pokemon, that's why it's being discussed.
    If the majority will lead to ban, then I can't do anything about it.

    On a side note, Hoopa-B has been quickbanned, so no need to worry about it. :)
     
    sulcata likes this.
  5. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    "99.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers"
    It 3HKOs no investment non leftovers Heatran though.

    It 3HKOs offensive, which isn't the only Heatran. Personally I think specially defensive is better for that reason. It also has a 7% chance to miss each turn, which isn't as insignificant as you'd think. Doesn't make a difference for things like 1-2HKOs, but when you need to land 3-4 hits it's notable. Putting everything back into perspective, Victini is only a check to begin with. A check made very shaky and less than reliable due to the support Aegislash has available to it. Not to mention it risks a King's Shield if it has and clicks V-Create, which is probably its best option in most scenarios.
     
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  6. Celebi.

    Celebi. Active Member

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    About Aegis relying pretty heavily on Heatran being alive:

    Steel in general almost never sacrifices Heatran. The Flash Fire utility is usually more important than another member in the ridiculous defensive core the type has. This trait isn't exclusive to Aegi.

    My primary reason for wanting it banned is that it forms such a strong defensive core. There are very few Pokemon that can reliably beat, or effectively pressure the Aegi/Tran/Ferro/(Skarm) core. I'm talking Pokemon like Nidoking and Infernape that are pretty low risk vs that core because if you predict wrong you can just change moves. Manaphy and Mega Gyarados are a few examples of Pokemon that need at least one of the members weakened and they can put in a lot of work. The thing about those mons however, is that they win the match up with or without Aegi's presence.

    My problem with Aegi isn't as much about the pokemon itself as it is with the ridiculous cores it forms. I talked about the defensive core up there, but you have the Bisharp/Aegi hazard protection core. There aren't many spinners that can just beat Aegi, and defogging into a Bisharp is usually never a good idea. Aegislash and Mega Metagross form a pretty stupid offensive core between themselves.

    Even with that being said, Aegi alone still pressures a lot of types and just puts most players in unfavorable positions simply because it exists. It's not an auto win Pokemon, things can beat it, but it just supports the Steel type too much to me.
     
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  7. Raducan

    Raducan Well-Known Member

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