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Hoenn

Discussion in 'Active Themes' started by Yttrium, Jun 23, 2015.

  1. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Yttrium
    Link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/86594639/Themes/Hoenn.json

    Hello! I'm PokeWorldBW and a couple years ago I created a theme called Hoenn. I created this theme because at the time of its creation, the only Pokemon theme on the server was the "Pokemon" theme which was an unbalanced Default reskin. I borrowed concepts from other popular themes, such as FF, Mythology, and Elements while making this. I actually made most of the changes to the theme a year ago, but I was too lazy to write out new role descriptions and do roles spawn so I never got to reviving Hoenn until now. While remaking Hoenn, I looked at some of RiceKirby's themes for guidance cause I thought some interface things such as mafia's shared kill broadcast message were done well. I heard that it was disabled and removed because of balance issues, such as Sceptile being OP in small games, Linoones being OP in mid-size games, and Dragons being OP in large games. I hope that I have adequately addressed these issues.

    I am aware that Matt Ayala/Scatterbrain adopted Hoenn and made changes to it, but I do not know how the theme was changed. I worked off of my latest rendition of Hoenn and have not included any changes that he made. Feel free to tell me if there was something from his version of the theme that you liked and want to see back.

    Please take a look at the concerns section because there are several things I'm unsure of what to do about. Hoenn isn't perfected and finished IMO.

    Well, let's get to the actual theme itself.

    Roles:
    Good Pokemon
    Zigzagoon - Villager
    Lunatone - Inspector; hidden expose for suggesting someone to be voted
    Solrock - Bodyguard
    Chimecho - Distracter
    Swampert - Mayor (+2 votes)
    Swellow - Stalker, sees Blaziken's targets
    Blaziken - Vigilante
    Sceptile - Samurai
    Wynaut - Bomb
    Claydol - Shuppet Miller
    Absol - Mightyena Miller
    Plusle - Knows Chimecho, can look for Minun with /plus command
    Minun - Knows Solrock, can look for Plusle with /minus command; has -1 vote
    Mega Swampert* - Mayor (+5 votes)
    Mega Blaziken* - Vigilante (increased priority and ignores distract)
    Mega Sceptile* - Samurai (sided with Dragon Pokemon)
    Mega Absol* - Conspirator, wins with any side

    Ghost Pokemon
    Shuppet - Mafia Killer
    Dusclops - Mafia Distracter + Killer
    Banette - Mafia Poisoner + Killer; has -1 vote
    Mega Banette* - Mafia Poisoner + killer; has -1 vote; evades nightkills

    Dark Pokemon
    Mightyena - Mafia Killer
    Cacturne - Mafia Protector + Killer
    Sharpedo - Mafia Daykiller (first kill non-revealing, 60% chance to reveal after first kill) + Nightkiller
    Mega Sharpedo* - Mafia Daykiller (no reveal) + nightkiller; has -1 voteshield

    Sableye - Can win with Ghost Pokemon or Dark Pokemon; sees all the Ghost and Dark Pokemon's kills; can inspect someone's team; can kidnap (3 charges) to distract + protect + safeguard a role

    Bug Pokemon
    Ninjask - Killer, kills before protect, kills Chimecho if distracted and ignores Dusclops and Sableye's distracts; evades Sceptile's kill and kills Shedinja when dead; Survives 1 lynch
    Shedinja - Evades nightkills and daykills; Stalks someone (also finds out the person's team); Compulsory watch on all team mates

    Dragon Pokemon
    Salamence - 100 votes
    Altaria - Has one non-revealing daykill and a second revealing daykill
    Mega Salamence - 100 votes + revealing daykill
    Mega Altaria - protect + distract (cannot use both the same night, no cooldown);
    *** Dragon Pokemon do not know each other at the start

    * Mega Pokemon Mega Evolve when they are the last remaining member of their team.

    Changes:
    There were some roles that I had previously put in Hoenn that I did not like or know what to do with. They have been removed and are:
    Linoone - Hax on Good Pokemon's actions
    Nincada - a very confusing role
    Flygon - Nightkiller for Dragon side with revealing daykill
    Exploud - Exposer
    Aggron - Bodyguard with two protects
    Slaking - Non-revealing Samurai
    Castform - Conspirator

    There are a couple issues that I wished to address when remaking Hoenn. One, of course, was balance. Another was hax. I wanted to try to reduce the mafia script's impact on the game with things like spy hax. I was also told that the role descriptions were too long so I tried to keep them brief and to the point.
    Linoone was removed because it made it too easy for PRs to connect. I don't know what I should make Linoone if I decide to put it back into the theme. I also don't know what to do with Flygon. The other removed roles were removed because I found them to be unnecessary.

    There were also several roles that have been changed and others that were added.
    Sableye - Sableye was changed because it was hard to justify putting it on the Ghost side when it was also part Dark. It is now able to win with both sides. To make things interesting, I gave Sableye the tools to find the Ghost or Dark Pokemon so it can work with them - Sableye is guaranteed to see the Ghost and Dark Pokemon's kills. It also has the ability to inspect someone's team. Hopefully this will cause people to think when they get Sableye. It can also support mafia with its kidnap.
    Shuppet was added to take Sableye's role as the Ghost Pokemon's basic killer. In the previous Hoenn thread, people voiced support for Shuppet > Duskull.

    Plusle and Minun - Take the place of the Linoones. I wanted to give PRs a different way to connect, this time without relying on hax. Plusle and Minun either know Chimecho and Solrock from the start and can connect with each other with the plus or minus command respectively. I kinda liked the idea of having people work together in pairs so village PRs don't feel as lost when no one can claim. I was unsure if I should give Plusle and Minun some kind of buff when they found each other.

    Swellow - Swellow is now a stalker instead of a spy. I kind of dislike spies since they are solely luck based and are only slightly better than a villager. Stalking is a different method to gain information. I also set up Swellow as kind of a pair with Blaziken, since Swellow can see all of Blaziken's kills and potentially use info from stalking to find Blaziken. Ways for PRs to connect are useful when you can't outright claim.

    Lunatone - Now has an "expose" similar to L's to suggest someone to be voted. I actually came up with this a long time ago before I knew DN existed, but no one's going to believe that. Since claiming is difficult, I thought this would help with the conundrum of being an inspector that has info but can't do anything about it (i.e. in Myth or FF). The expose (/shine) has a 3 day initial recharge so it doesn't interfere with small games too much and Lunatone isn't tempted to rand-expose when they don't have info early on.

    Swablu and Altaria - Altaria no longer starts out as a role. Instead, Swablu can inspect and will evolve into Altaria if it inspects Salamence, gaining a non-revealing daykill plus a second revealing outrage kill. I wasn't sure what to do about the Dragon side to make it strong with making it overpowered, so I came up with this as a temporary solution.

    Spawn:
    List 1 (5~9 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Zigzagoon (zig)
    4. Ninjask (nin)
    5. Mightyena (mig)
    6. Solrock (sol)
    7. Zigzagoon (zig)
    8. Mightyena (mig)
    9. Zigzagoon (zig)

    List 2 (10~12 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Zigzagoon (zig)
    4. Ninjask (nin)
    5. Mightyena (mig)
    6. Solrock (sol)
    7. Zigzagoon (zig)
    8. Mightyena (mig)
    9. Claydol (cla)
    10. Lunatone (lun)
    11. Shuppet (shu)
    12. Swampert (swa)

    List 3 (13~13 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Solrock (sol)
    4. Ninjask (nin)
    5. Shuppet (shu)
    6. Zigzagoon (zig)
    7. Zigzagoon (zig)
    8. Shuppet (shu)
    9. Lunatone (lun)
    10. Swampert (swa)
    11. Mightyena (mig)
    12. Cacturne (cac)
    13. Swellow (swe)

    List 4 (14~16 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Solrock (sol)
    4. Ninjask (nin)
    5. Shuppet (shu)
    6. Zigzagoon (zig)
    7. Absol (abs)
    8. Lunatone (lun)
    9. Swampert (swa)
    10. Mightyena (mig)
    11. Cacturne (cac)
    12. Swellow (swe)
    13. Dusclops (dus)
    14. Claydol (cla)
    15. Salamence (sal)
    16. Blaziken (bla)

    List 5 (17~19 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Solrock (sol)
    4. Ninjask (nin)
    5. Shuppet (shu)
    6. Absol (abs)
    7. Lunatone (lun)
    8. Swampert (swa)
    9. Mightyena (mig)
    10. Cacturne (cac)
    11. Swellow (swe)
    12. Dusclops (dus)
    13. Zigzagoon (zig)
    14. Zigzagoon (zig)
    15. Claydol (cla)
    16. Salamence (sal)
    17. Blaziken (bla)
    18. Sableye (sab)
    19. Zigzagoon (zig)

    List 6 (20~20 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Solrock (sol)
    4. Ninjask (nin)
    5. Shuppet (shu)
    6. Absol (abs)
    7. Lunatone (lun)
    8. Swampert (swa)
    9. Mightyena (mig)
    10. Cacturne (cac)
    11. Swellow (swe)
    12. Dusclops (dus)
    13. Zigzagoon (zig)
    14. Zigzagoon (zig)
    15. Claydol (cla)
    16. Salamence (sal)
    17. Blaziken (bla)
    18. Sableye (sab)
    19. Plusle (plu)
    20. Minun (min)

    List 7 (21~26 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Solrock (sol)
    4. Ninjask (nin2)
    5. Shuppet (shu)
    6. Absol (abs)
    7. Lunatone (lun)
    8. Swampert (swa)
    9. Mightyena (mig)
    10. Cacturne (cac)
    11. Swellow (swe)
    12. Dusclops (dus)
    13. Zigzagoon (zig)
    14. Zigzagoon (zig)
    15. Claydol (cla)
    16. Salamence (sal)
    17. Blaziken (bla)
    18. Shedinja (she)
    19. Plusle (plu)
    20. Minun (min)
    21. Banette (ban)
    22. Wynaut (wyn)
    23. Crawdaunt (cra)
    24. Zigzagoon (zig)
    25. Altaria (alt)
    26. Zigzagoon (zig)

    List 8 (27~27 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Solrock (sol)
    4. Ninjask (nin2)
    5. Shuppet (shu)
    6. Absol (abs)
    7. Lunatone (lun)
    8. Swampert (swa)
    9. Mightyena (mig)
    10. Cacturne (cac)
    11. Swellow (swe)
    12. Dusclops (dus)
    13. Zigzagoon (zig)
    14. Zigzagoon (zig)
    15. Claydol (cla)
    16. Salamence (sal)
    17. Blaziken (bla)
    18. Shedinja (she)
    19. Plusle (plu)
    20. Minun (min)
    21. Banette (ban)
    22. Wynaut (wyn)
    23. Crawdaunt (cra)
    24. Zigzagoon (zig)
    25. Altaria (alt)
    26. Seviper (sev)
    27. Zangoose (zan)

    List 9 (28~31 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Solrock (sol)
    4. Ninjask (nin2)
    5. Shuppet (shu)
    6. Absol (abs)
    7. Lunatone (lun)
    8. Swampert (swa)
    9. Mightyena (mig)
    10. Cacturne (cac)
    11. Swellow (swe)
    12. Dusclops (dus)
    13. Zigzagoon (zig)
    14. Zigzagoon (zig)
    15. Claydol (cla)
    16. Salamence (sal)
    17. Blaziken (bla)
    18. Shedinja (she)
    19. Plusle (plu)
    20. Minun (min)
    21. Banette (ban)
    22. Wynaut (wyn)
    23. Crawdaunt (cra)
    24. Zigzagoon (zig)
    25. Altaria (alt)
    26. Seviper (sev)
    27. Zangoose (zan)
    28. Sableye (sab)
    29. Solrock (sol)
    30. Zigzagoon (zig)
    31. Shedinja (she)

    List 10 (32~45 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Solrock (sol)
    4. Ninjask (nin2)
    5. Shuppet (shu)
    6. Absol (abs)
    7. Lunatone (lun)
    8. Swampert (swa)
    9. Mightyena (mig)
    10. Cacturne (cac)
    11. Swellow (swe)
    12. Dusclops (dus)
    13. Zigzagoon (zig)
    14. Zigzagoon (zig)
    15. Claydol (cla)
    16. Salamence (sal)
    17. Blaziken (bla)
    18. Shedinja (she)
    19. Plusle (plu)
    20. Minun (min)
    21. Banette (ban)
    22. Wynaut (wyn)
    23. Crawdaunt (cra)
    24. Plusle (plu)
    25. Minun (min)
    26. Altaria (alt)
    27. Zigzagoon (zig)
    28. Solrock (sol)
    29. Seviper (sev)
    30. Zangoose (zan)
    31. Zigzagoon (zig)
    32. Shedinja (she)
    33. Zigzagoon (zig)
    34. Sableye (sab)
    35. Blaziken (bla)
    36. Zigzagoon (zig)
    37. Shuppet (shu)
    38. Mightyena (mig)
    39. Zigzagoon (zig)
    40. Shuppet (shu)
    41. Swampert (swa)
    42. Sableye (sab)
    43. Zigzagoon (zig)
    44. Sceptile (sce)
    45. Sableye (sab)

    List 11 (46~50 players):
    1. Sceptile (sce)
    2. Chimecho (chi)
    3. Solrock (sol)
    4. Ninjask (nin2)
    5. Shuppet (shu)
    6. Absol (abs)
    7. Lunatone (lun)
    8. Swampert (swa)
    9. Mightyena (mig)
    10. Cacturne (cac)
    11. Swellow (swe)
    12. Dusclops (dus)
    13. Zigzagoon (zig)
    14. Zigzagoon (zig)
    15. Claydol (cla)
    16. Salamence (sal)
    17. Blaziken (bla)
    18. Shedinja (she)
    19. Plusle (plu)
    20. Minun (min)
    21. Banette (ban)
    22. Wynaut (wyn)
    23. Crawdaunt (cra)
    24. Plusle (plu)
    25. Minun (min)
    26. Altaria (alt)
    27. Zigzagoon (zig)
    28. Solrock (sol)
    29. Seviper (sev)
    30. Zangoose (zan)
    31. Zigzagoon (zig)
    32. Shedinja (she)
    33. Zigzagoon (zig)
    34. Sableye (sab)
    35. Blaziken (bla)
    36. Zigzagoon (zig)
    37. Shuppet (shu)
    38. Mightyena (mig)
    39. Zigzagoon (zig)
    40. Shuppet (shu)
    41. Swampert (swa)
    42. Sableye (sab)
    43. Zigzagoon (zig)
    44. Sceptile (sce)
    45. Cacturne (cac)
    46. Dusclops (dus)
    47. Zigzagoon (zig)
    48. Ninjask (nin2)
    49. Lunatone (lun)
    50. Zigzagoon (zig)


    I wasn't too sure what to do with spawn since I'm not sure how balance will work out. I tried to make early game spawn different enough from other themes so that it's not repetitive. I wasn't sure how large games would balance either so I kinda just put whatever. If an issue arises, I'll change it as I see it. Hopefully this will work for now.

    Priority:
    Priority List:
    [1] Sableye (Kidnap)
    [2] Dusclops (Distract)
    [3] Altaria (Distract)
    [4] Chimecho (Distract)
    [5] Ninjask (Kill)
    [10] Solrock (Protect)
    [11] Cacturne (Protect)
    [12] Altaria (Protect)
    [17] Banette (Curse)
    [19] Mega Blaziken (Kill)
    [20] Dark Pokemon (Kill)
    [21] Ghost Pokemon (Kill)
    [22] Blaziken (Kill)
    [30] Shedinja (Stalk)
    [31] Lunatone (Inspect)
    [32] Minun (Minus)
    [33] Plusle (Plus)
    [40] Swellow (Stalk)
    [41] Sableye (Search)
    [42] Shedinja (Watch)

    Concerns/Questions:
    1) Dragons
    What should I do about the Dragon side? I was told that people liked Salamence the way it is. The question now is what I should make its partners. View the changes section see how Swablu + Altaria have changed. I'm not sure what partners to give Salamence without making the Dragon side OP. Any suggestions welcome. If it should stay the way it is, say so too.
    2) Mega Evolutions
    With the releases of X/Y and OR/AS, GameFreak had introduced Mega Evolutions. Coincidentally, many Hoenn Pokemon which appear in the theme have received Mega Evolutions (Banette, Salamence, Altaria, Blaziken, Sceptile, Swampert; Sharpedo could replace Crawdaunt). Should I incorporate Mega Evolutions somehow or would that make the theme too complicated? Swablu and Altaria kind of already have an evolution mechanic. Should I include other evolutions, such as Zigzagoon -> Linoone? Is the theme fine as it is? Thoughts and suggestions are appreciated.

    Resolution: Implemented
    3) Shedinja
    I also wasn't sure what actions to give to Shedinja. I want it to be able to support Ninjask and not be a completely dead role, but I think it might be too weak.

    Resolution: Fine the way it is
    4) Plusle and Minun
    Should they get a buff when they find each other?

    Resolution: No
    5) Conspirators/New Side
    I thought of adding conspirators or a completely new side - would this be unnecessary or too complicated? I had ideas for Kecleon/Castform having multiple actions or a Fairy side with Gardevoir and Mawile. Maybe a conspirator could Mega Evolve other Pokemon and join their side? Not sure what to do about this. Conspirator ideas below.
    Gardevoir
    An idea I had for Gardevoir was an exposer who is by itself at the beginning. If it wants to, it can copy a player to join their team and copy whatever non-killing action that player had. Alternatively, maybe just have it as an exposer that wins with Good Pokemon and Dragon Pokemon but not anyone else or something like that.
    An alternate Gardevoir idea by Whereabouts Unknown:
    Kecleon
    Zangoose/Seviper
    Thoughts? Conspirators probably won't come into play until late in the game, so it's not a huge priority.

    6) New Roles
    If there are any roles or interesting ideas you would like to see in Hoenn, please notify me.
    7) Banette's secondary action
    I have Banette as the mafia "boss" of the Ghosts. Right now, it has a second action being /curse which is a poison in addition to the ability to Mega Evolve. However, I'm not sure if a poison is too weak in comparison to Sharpedo's, the dark "boss", daykill. I've been trying to think of alternatives for Banette's second action such as vote removal/silence (through convert) or vote removal + 2-3 day poison but that might be overly complicated. Any thoughts?

    Well, that was kinda long. If the post was tl;dr, at least check out the Concerns section.

    EDIT1: Changed spawn to make some roles appear earlier.
    EDIT2: Changed spawn so that Sceptile + Ninjask are in small games.
    EDIT3: Added Mega Evolutions (see this post)
    EDIT4: Added Banette secondary action to Concerns/Questions
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2015
  2. Pangaea

    Pangaea resto en peaco

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    Hooray!

    Before taking a deep look at the theme, I'll answer the questions you had.
    I also agree with leaving Salamence as it is. Of course, a kuja vote + a daykill is quite powerful (even if the daykill reveals), so his other members shouldn't be so overly powerful either. I like what you did with Swablu + Altaria since it keeps Salamence from being backed up by such a powerful team at the start of the game. It's a nice balance within the team, and it's also hard for Salamence to remain hidden in large games. However, I fear that the may be a bit weaker in really big games (probably won't be a real concern since Swablu doesn't even appear until 35 players, but still). It will be hard for them to find each other with only one inspect from Swablu, and as long as Sceptile and Blaziken are alive, Salamence won't be able to use his kill and he'll have to follow rands in order to prevent from being revealed by his massive vote. I suggest possibly allowing Swablu to inspect two people at night, or something that will help it find Salamence (obviously a good strategy would be for Salamence to kill AFTER Sceptile and Blaziken are gone so Swablu can find him, but even then he is vulnerable to kills from the mafia (and I noticed that pretty much everyone would gang up on the Dragon Mafia)).

    I say no, mainly because I see this theme as Hoenn and not OR/AS. Just stay true to the original theme, or else you'll start changing too many things. I never liked the idea of mega evolutions within mafia anyway, since they basically scream 'Role A on steroids'.

    I actually like that it's a role that can relay info to Kefka, and at the same time relies on the existence of Kefka in order to stay alive. It keeps the team from getting too powerful with so much information, even after the death of the Kefka role.

    I say no, mainly because they're already able to connect a lot since they get start-up reveal on certain roles. If you wanted, you could have it so they have to find each other first before they get the PR roles revealed to them, but that isn't what you're asking for. I say leave it as it is.

    It depends what you want to do with the theme. I typically find Fairy Mafias to be eh, since none of the Fairy Pokemon come off as exactly 'bad' to me. I see them as happy and furry Pokemon who safeguard and heal Pokemon from poisons :x. JOAT's are fun as conspirators, and depending what you do with Castform is all that would matter. Unless you really need to, I don't think additional sides are necessary.

    Will do! I'm really happy to see you bringing this back :)
     
  3. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Yttrium
    Ok, glad to hear that you like the roles as they are :D
    I changed Swablu to two inspects and changed spawn so that some roles appear earlier and are more relevant. It feels like I'm being one of those people that just shove in a bunch of mafia and power roles in roles and forget about villagers, but maybe this'll work out and it won't be a complete killfest at 20+ players? Before, a couple of roles only showed up past 25 players (i.e. Sceptile, Swablu, Wynaut) and would probably never appear in a game.
    I guess the weekend will be the true test for balance in larger games.
     
  4. Fate Testarossa

    Fate Testarossa Unbreakable Bond

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Fate Testarossa
    I skimmed over the code and found a few things that need some adjusting (unless they were intentional, not sure).
    The plus and minus commands need to pierce. Otherwise, they will be blocked by Sableye's /kidnap. Speaking of Sableye's /kidnap, Sableye can currently use all 3 of its kidnap charges in a single night; I'm not sure if that was intentional or not so I'm just letting you know. This next one is more of a nitpick rather than a suggestion, but if you wanted to, you could remove Banette's preventteamvote since their vote is -1. Swablu isn't told that it can inspect twice a night.

    Salamence will [have to] play similar to just about any kind of Kuja--lay low and don't attract attention, follow rands, and hope all the killers die before he does. It's not a weak role at all, but it most likely won't have much of an impact on the game (in a sense), as its daykill reveals itself and its massive vote almost forces it to either follow rands or not vote at all, not to mention Swablu "never" spawns (simply put, if it wants to kill someone, be it via daykill or vote, it's almost always going to be revealed). Maybe you could have Flygon spawn as a teammate and a nightkiller (your choice on whether or not the two know each other from the start); if those two as a pair seem too strong, maybe have Latias as a teammate that can protect + safeguard every other night; for the sake of giving Salamence some kind of safety/protection, these two should know each other from the start. You could also consider giving Latias an inspect (because psychic type I guess) to help give Salamence some kind of information/idea as to who to daykill or vote if Salamence chooses to do so.

    Absol and Sableye can mega evolve too! Pokemon themes have a lot of ways they can be made unique given abilties, type matchups, attacks and secondary effects, evolution, mega evolution, and the list goes on. As for evolutions and mega evolutions, it depends on how many of these you plan to add if you follow through with it; having just one or two possible megas can result in a different kind of game versus 7 or 8--it can also depend on how easy it is for the pokemon to be able to evolve or mega evolve. Long story short, if you end up adding any kind of evolutions, I would actually keep them to a minimum. How easy it is to achieve that evolution should also depend on how strong the evolutions are (in terms of power and protection). Adding a few shouldn't ruin the theme, and not adding them definitely doesn't take away from this theme.

    I think Shedinja is fine the way it is. The information it receives and can give to Ninjask will prove to be quite useful. Larges games may prove to be a bit of a challenge, mainly because Ninjask has no way to protect itself (outside of being unable to be daykilled by Sceptile) or its teammates nor does it have any additional control (distract) or kill pressure (poison or a limited/one time use additional kill, even though its kill outspeeds bodyguards). Shedinja also is unable to protect Ninjask (then again, being able to protect a Kefka would probably be strong unless the protect was limited; once every x nights or only x times a game).

    At least in smaller games, the answer is a resounding no from me. As Pangaea said, each one is already connected to a PR, so one finding the other automatically connects four people. Even if they were to get buffed when they find each other (in larger games), I would try to make it something minor but still useful (a one-time [insert command here] or something like that; I can't seem to actually come up with anything at this moment).

    I don't think a new side would actually make this theme too complicated, as there aren't that many (if any) mechanics or abilities that people would overlook or forget when they need to keep track of such stuff (did that even make sense?). I can't think of anything good for a new side that hasn't already been mentioned. You could do a "legendary pokemon" team with the Regis, the Lati twins, Groudon, Kyogre, Rayquaza (possible mega if you want to go wild), Jirachi, and Deoxys (even though I had suggested Latias as a potential dragon mafia pokemon), but if they are meant to be considerably strong, I'd limit it to only one pokemon until much larger games; you could play around with spawn chance if you wanted to and give each legendary a different chance to spawn with each game. I'm not a fan of conspirators claiming in chat night 1 and expecting to win, so if you do go through with a conspirator, I'd definitely give it a reason to not claim. For the conspirator that can mega evolve a pokemon to join its side, I'd make it so they die after a certain number of nights if they haven't mega evolved someone else, with the number of nights increasing as games get larger. Since there aren't that many pokemon that can mega evolve, you could also consider giving it an "inspect" that tells it whether or not its target can be mega evolved to help it out. You could do some creative things with Kecleon given its Color Change ability; let's say it gains any and all votes and non-killing actions of the last role that visited it. Any gained votes and actions are kept until a different role visits Kecleon again (that would be quite a bit of coding to do though). Castform could change the weather to strengthen and weaken certain roles depending on the weather (Blaziken, Swampert, Sceptile; maybe Groudon and Kyogre as well if you choose to add them). Some ideas that I came up with off the top of my head are Blaziken's kill being haxable by mafia or having a chance to fail in rain but having a chance to pierce bodyguards and evaders or ignore distractors in the sun, Swampert losing votes in the sun but gaining votes or a chance to evade nightkills and/or daykills in the rain, and Sceptile being able to kill only every other day in the rain but being able to kill every day without being revealed and maybe able to daykill Ninjask in the sun.

    As I said before, there's a lot that can be done (well, barring making a theme too complicated) with pokemon mafia themes. Be on the lookout for some insane forum PM or server PM.
     
  5. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

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    I did intend for kidnap to block even plus and minus and for Sableye to use all charges in one night if it chose to.
    I'll change Banette's preventTeamvote and Swablu's help message.
    Maybe instead of Altaria daykilling, I could give it a protect or maybe double distract plus an inspect. A third dragon role for larger games would probably never appear. Not sure if Salamence needs protection or info for support.

    Okay, I'll leave Shedinja and Plusle and Minun the way they are.
    I'll think about a way to add Mega Evolutions without unbalancing the game or making it too confusing. Maybe I'll limit it to one Mega Evolution per game and the first role that targets a conspirator or something Mega Evolves. Not sure of what extra power I'd give to the Mega Evo though. Maybe something small like avoid distract or a voteshield/extra votes.

    I'm leaning towards making a conspirator that does something with Mega Evolutions if I include Mega Evolutions in the theme at all. But still undecided on that :o
    I actually thought of making Kecleon like that. Maybe I'll add Kecleon as the conspirator.
    I had a Castform role similar to what you described but it kinda got complicated. I think Kecleon sounds like a better idea for a role that can have different actions.
    The weather stuff sounds kinda complicated and hard to balance, not too sure about that.

    Thanks for the feedback!
    lol I used the words "not" and "sure" a lot in this post...
     
  6. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning Forum Moderator Channel Leader Forum Moderator Channel Leader

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    Salamence is a great iconic role, imo leave it as it is. Swablu could be improved though. I like that Altaria powers up on Mence death, because it encourages Mence to go berserk because even in its death, Altaria gets stronger (similar idea to what Wrath/Pride do in my FMA). I think Swablu/Altaria has too much information though. It doesn't need to power up after Inspecting Mence; it can wait for onDeath evolve. I think Swablu would be fine with the Inspect revealing imperfect information (e.g., if the role kills/inspects/daykills/protects etc). I would also be in favor of Altaria keeping a non-limited concealed daykill (no outrage).

    I always liked the idea of [email protected] in Hoenn acting like Prader-Will/Angelman in Body. If you feel like incorporating that into a new side or into Dragons, that could be a cool addition.

    If you do add this mechanic, make sure to keep it limited. I would have it be a 1x bonus action which is publicly broadcast, e.g., "Blaziken has Mega Evolved!" would appear in-game, while Blaziken's kill it higher (highest?) priority for that night. Other ideas are Sceptile gaining a 1x expose, Swampert evading nightkills for one night phase, etc. These would be pretty strong for these already VCLR town roles even with the limit of once per game, so you'd have to give the mafias some potent 1x Mega abilities.

    I like Shedinja, but I remember that Ninjask/Sceptile duels are some of what made small games really fun in the version that Matt made. Maybe Ninjask could be moved lower into the spawn?

    My concern about these roles is they make massclaim too powerful, especially in small games. I'll try and think of a possible solution that keeps them mechanically the same and get back to you.

    Add Mawile <3

    Ahem, I mean... adding new roles is never a bad idea! Even if they don't appear until large games, it's better than having nothing but villagers in higher spawn. If you need ideas for these roles (especially any Steel/Fairy types) I could come up with a suggestion for them.

    I like the idea of making Gardevoir use its Trace ability. Even if it remained a solo role/mafia role with teammates, having it Inspect+Copy the abilities of its target that would be very interesting.

     
  7. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

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    I kinda didn't want to put legendaries in Hoenn. Salamence and Altaria powering each other up in different ways could be a good idea. Maybe Salamence could get self-bg if Altaria dies and Altaria gets the daykill when Salamence dies. If I did this, I would get rid of Swablu and make Altaria start with another action, either double inspect or double distract probably.

    Yeah, I think having too many Mega Evolutions could ruin the game. Maybe this could work. I also considered having the same buff for everything after they mega evolve.

    I was told that Sceptile in small games made village op :o How did Matt make it work?
    I haven't seen this happen yet so idk :o I'll change it if it village gets overpowered, but people are still learning the theme and village doesn't seem to be winning a lot atm anyway
    I was thinking of either Gardevoir, a mega evolver, or the Kecleon idea mentioned by Crobat for the Conspirator now.

    Thanks for the ideas!
     
  8. Yttrium

    Yttrium Well-Known Member Developer Developer

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    Double post, but it's been awhile...

    Spawn has been changed to reflect this. Salamence appears earlier as well.

    So, I have decided I will add Kecleon as a Conspirator. Kecleon will start as a Normal type and evade all actions. If targeted by an action, it will be able to use that action. The action it can use will change if it is targeted again by a different action.
    For a conspirator, I thought of having Seviper/Zangoose. Seviper and Zangoose will start off being unable to be killed, daykilled, or lynched and cannot vote. They win by getting rid of the other role, their enemy. Their only action will be a convert; this convert only works their enemy. When converted, Seviper/Zangoose will lose their kill/daykill/lynch immunity and will die to any action. The survivor will then become a conspirator that wins with everyone and cannot vote or anything.
    Sounds complicated, but basically, they want to try to find the other and convince people to help kill the other in order to win. I thought it would be cool to have them in a competition within the mafia game.


    EDIT: Never mind, I just realized the Seviper/Zangoose roles could be complicated. There's no reason for a side to waste a kill or lynch to help Seviper/Zangoose win and it might just be a distraction from the game. Does anyone have thoughts on this? Should I use Kecleon, Seviper/Zangoose, or a completely different role for a conspirator?

    In addition, I will also be adding Mega Evolutions. Mega Evolutions will occur when a role is the last remaining member on its side.
    The following changes have been made to change roles before Mega Evolution:
    Swampert: Vote counts as 2.
    Crawdaunt: No longer exists
    Sharpedo: Replaces Crawdaunt (Kill + daykill [first time no reveal, after that 60% reveal chance])
    Banette: Loses its voteshield
    Swablu: No longer exists
    Altaria: Can distract or protect one person per night; cannot use both the same night and cannot use an action two nights in a row
    Salamence: Does not start with revealing daykill (/outrage)

    The following roles will gain these actions once they Mega Evolve:
    Mega Sceptile: Joins Dragon side
    Mega Absol: Wins with any mafia
    Mega Swampert: +5 votes
    Mega Salamence: Gains revealing daykill
    * Salamence will Mega Evolve n1 in games without Altaria, so it really hasn't changed in mid-size games; the loss of the daykill is just to prevent too many kills when Altaria is in
    Mega Altaria: no more cooldown on distract/protect and gains a concealed daykill and a revealing daykill

    All killers will kill with increased priority; they will have the second fastest kill (after Ninjask) unless there is another Mega Evolution killer. In addition, they will all ignore distract along with the following buffs:
    All Mega Evolution killers will only ignore distract in addition to the following buffs:
    Mega Blaziken: increased kill priority (second fastest, after Ninjask)
    Mega Banette: -1 voteshield, evades nightkills
    Mega Sharpedo: -1 voteshield, daykill does not reveal

    I tried to keep the Mega Evolution buffs from being too intrusive. Altaria -> Mega Altaria is similar to Swablu -> Altaria except it has alternating protect and distract instead of inspect. Swampert and Blaziken getting buffed provides more incentive to kill them before they go off randomly killing villagers. Village will also have to try to aim for Banette and Crawdaunt before the rest of their team.

    Voice any concerns or objections; otherwise I will put this into effect.

    EDIT: Mega Crawdaunt doesn't exist! Crawdaunt will be renamed Sharpedo.
    EDIT2: Just kidding, I thought of a possible better idea than Kecleon.
    EDIT3: Ignore the above. Any second opinions?
    EDIT4: I just realized priority changes for Mega Banette/Sharpedo aren't really necessary since Banette will evade nightkills and Sharpedo already has the second highest priority. They will keep the same priority as before.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015