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Suspect Discussion: Reuniclus (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by NananaBatman, Jul 18, 2015.

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  1. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
    Shoutouts ThatMushroom for the sick picture

    Discuss the possibility of Reuniclus being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Reuniclus' impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on wether Reuniclus should be banned (or not) from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Reuniclus in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2015
  2. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Dont really have much to add that I did not say in the potential suspects thread but to just recap/start discussion:
    Basically the gist is that Clus fills a lot of different roles all with just two sets. It can be a passive dmg immune, setup-sweeping wall. It can be a fast tr cleaner that has no good/viable switchins. It easily can outlive most of its checks due to the utility of magicguard+recovery and the ability to beat any stall mon. Clus is as close to a net sum gain as you can come across in a tier. It has very few flaws and is a positive to any type of team its slapped on
     
    Dominique-XLR likes this.
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Where to start....hm? Where to start is honestly a pretty good question. Anyway, Reuinclus doesn't need long paragraphs to describe what it does.

    Simply put, it destroys stall, plain and simple. There is no way stall can overcome something like this thing, and it's like one of 10 Pokemon that are capable of that due to how they set up. Seeing as a lot of UU has the capability to destroy Stall though, I wouldn't throw this out as a reason to Ban Reuinclus, since it's the natural enemy of stall, and there's nothing that can be done about that, and if people wanted to specifically beat Stall, they'll find a way to do it, and if being able to beat Stall was a reason to ban, we'd be banning like a large 90% chunk of UU. The only way Stall stops it is with Taunt and never letting it set up.

    What's more important, is how it affects the metagame as well as Balanced and Offensive nature teams, because that's where things get a little more complicated. As our lord and savior of all things Pokemon @Hikari has said to some of us, Reuinclus has the strong potential to be considered broken/unhealthy for what it's capable against these styles of teams.

    Nothing really likes switching into Reuinclus, but Reuinclus doesn't like switching into a lot of the UU metagame unless something dies or against a bulky style non offensive Pivot. A lot of it really comes down to knowing what sets are used and what might be on the opposing team. Reuinclus isn't actually hard to 2hko from the physical side, but once it starts getting those CM's in, it's like Suicune, as well as most things that set up CM or BU in other tiers after a few, in that they start to become untouchable from those sides. The one thing that makes Reuniclus different of course is access to Recover (fewer Pokemon that are capable of setting up won't have one outside rest), and it's passive to hazards and status. You just can't deal with Reuinclus passively, you have to be fully aggressive in dealing with it, otherwise it will walk all over you.

    I don't think Reuinclus has the easiest time setting up unless it's against very certain things, and it can't afford to make a mistake in choosing what it sets up on. You have to do a fair amount of scouting to make it work, and get it right. You wouldn't charge right in, and send it on say a Crobat expecting it to be a Bulky Bat, and it turns out that it's Banded Bat. Scouting required. A lot of things have a solid way to actually beating Reuniclus, it just requires a little thinking, and actually anticipation in your team building and combining the efforts to combo off what's needed. I really feel that Reuinclus has a fairly modest list of actual switch in's it's willing to pull off, that aren't off teammates getting KO'ed in UU. That list includes Florges, Tentacruel, non offensive (LO or Specs) Empoleon, non Curse/Banded Snorlax, Umbreon (unless it finds a way to carry Taunt), non Volt Switch Forretress, Arcanine, Blissey, Hippowdon, Vaporeon, Klefki, etc. The idea is that, purely wally types with little offensive niche beyond trying to hit things with sub-par bulk are it's best aims, because it's fat, and they won't do much to it back.

    If any Pokemon has a form of going on the offensive, it always comes down to how well built your team is to handle Reuinclus really. Tricking choice items (Band/Scarf in this case) is the best way of neutering the set up Pokemon that rely on being a defensive tank. There's actually a fair few of those, but they are more unorthodox, since it seems today's metagame centers so much on doing attack, attack, attack, attack, attack, attack and switching as needed instead of building to cover the loss of 1 coverage move. With, how offensive UU can get, a lot of match ups really go for what can get in first and just start fighting against everything in sight, since everything will put a large dent in everything else. Reuinclus is just another one of those Mons whether it be the TR set or CM Defensive one. Against anything with set up, it has an uphill battle in winning, in that it requires a bit of luck (Focus Blast hitting if needed, the opponent relying on a low acc move, them being at a low enough health you can bother to get a set up or two in, because they can't afford to set up which is how they might KO you), simple things that you have to work towards.

    Honestly, that's how I see Reuinclus right now in the tier. It's definitely a top threat that you have to take into account when making teams, and having something that can do something to it. Whether it be taunt, encore, whether your team relies on having a strong U-Turn/Volt Switch and breaker combo, several varieties of things happening. A lot of things it fights and that fight it are barely putting each other in killing ranges with 1 attack alone, the biggest difference in those match ups, is that Reuinclus isn't getting affected by Stealth Rocks, which help it put the others into kill zone for it.

    Now I'm not sure whether I'd call it broken or unhealthy for the metagame myself. I find it another interesting gear in the mechanism of ORAS UU, all my experience of winning against it comes from me using a half-ass team, that makes me too lazy to really build something better and more suited to the UU metagame. It's always a threat to my team if I make a bad move obviously, so the threat is real, but to ban it, I'm not entirely sure at this point.

    Also....Mandibuzz and not carrying Whirlwind for it. You people really should expand your horizons beyond using the same 1 form of 4MSS sets and not just disregard actually innovating something for yourselves as "garbage" just because it takes effort to pull off. If Mandibuzz is going to drop any move to run WW on any form of set, it's dropping Defog/Toxic for those that run it. Why? If you are gonna run WW, you might as well get the added bonus of Hazard punishment as well as the effects of Phazing set ups against any teams. Mandi does a fine job of that, you can retain Taunt, it pairs well with a fair amount of spinners if your team will also need hazard removal, and some of those are capable of Toxic for those that require/want a Toxic user. Team building to make your Pokemon compliment each other.....man I feel sorry for people only starting out in this generation of Pokemon at all.
     
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  4. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Tier Leader Server Administrator Articles Leader Tier Leader Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Reuniclus has two main sets that I can see being problematic in the tier, and they work very differently. Firstly, there's the Calm Mind set which usually has max HP/max Defense with Leftovers and with Calm Mind, Recover, Psyshock, Focus Blast/Shadow Ball. This set finds chances to setup on most of the tier, and many Pokemon can only switch into it depending on whether it's running Focus Blast (Ghosts and Psychics like that) or Shadow Ball (Dark types like that). However, the other set that Reuniclus like to run is a Trick Room set with Max Special Attack with the rest in HP and Defense while holding Life Orb with the moves Trick Room, Psyshock, Focus Blast, Shadow Ball. A lot of the things that can switch in and 2HKO the Calm Mind set will lose to the Trick Room set if they try switching in on it. Reuniclus already has really good bulk, but the fact that it also has Magic Guard as its ability makes it impossible to take down with passive damage, so it's very difficult for play-styles that are predominantly built around stall to take down the Calm Mind sets. Stall does better against the Trick Room set though since that set usually doesn't have recovery and may not be able to hit hard enough to break through some walls.


    Note: Everything that says "no shadow ball" or "no focus blast" probably loses to Trick Room set since it has both.
    Victini (if no Shadow Ball)-Can easily switch in and 2HKO with V-Create or U-Turn to maintain momentum if Reuniclus is predicted to switch.
    Alakazam (if no Shadow Ball)- Can easily switch in and Encore to stop Reuniclus from setting up. Deals heavy damage with its own Shadow Ball.
    Mega Blastoise- Can switch in on CM sets and deal massive damage with Dark Pulse (Reuniclus must get to +2 to avoid the 2HKO but then there's still the flinch chance).
    Mandibuzz (if no Focus Blast)- Can use Taunt and wear down the CM set.
    Hydreigon (if no Focus Blast)- Can switch in and deals massive damage with Dark Pulse.
    Mega Aerodactyl-Could switch in once and force out/2HKO CM Reuniclus with Crunch. Loses to TR Reuniclus though.
    Chandelure (if no Shadow Ball)-Can switch in once and force Reuniclus out/KO with Shadow Ball/Trick with Choice Item.
    Mega Houndoom (if no Focus Blast)-Easily switches in and starts setting up/dishing out damage with Dark Pulse.
    Honchkrow (if no Focus Blast)-Can switch in and power through it/Pursuit trap it. Can also Sucker Punch the TR set.
    Krookodile (if no Focus Blast)-Can switch in and CB set can OHKO with Knock Off or deal heavy damage with Pursuit.
    Shaymin-Can switch in and potentially force it out/KO CM set with Seed Flare (if no misses). Loses to TR set though.
    Snorlax (if no Focus Blast)- Curse Lax can force it out/beat it unless it has Psychic instead of Psyshock.
    Tyrantrum (if no Focus Blast)- Can switch in and 2HKO with Head Smash.
    Celebi (if no Shadow Ball)- Can probably beat CM set with Nasty Plot set.
    Cresselia-Comes close to countering Reuniclus completely since it can wall the TR set, but ultimately it might lose to a CM set with Shadow Ball in a PP stall.
    Doublade (if no Shadow Ball)- Free to setup SD and win.
    Mega Sharpedo, Sharpedo (if no Focus Blast)-Free to nom nom (use Crunch).
    Mega Absol (if no Focus Blast)-Can start setting up SDs and smash. Also has Sucker Punch for TR sets.
    Hippowdon- With special defense investment, can phase out the CM set and outlast the TR set.
    Noivern- Specs can switch into the CM set and nuke or Switcheroo. However, this can't even switch into the TR set if SR are up.
    Whimsicott-Can Encore the CM set but doesn't like switching into the TR set.
    Yanmega-Specs Bug Buzz destroys every variant and can switch in as long as SR aren't up.
    Scrafty (if no Focus Blast)-Bulk up set easily wins.
    Spiritomb-CM Spiritomb completely counters Reuniclus, but probably isn't very good in this meta.
    Mega Abomasnow (if no Focus Blast)- Physical sets can break it.
    Mega Banette (if no Shadow Ball)- Shadow Claw/Knock Off can break it
    Jellicent-Can beat the CM set thanks to Taunt. Loses to TR set though.
    Zoroark (if no Focus Blast)- Can switch in if it must. Smashes with Dark STAB.

    Apart from Mega Blastoise, Cresselia, Hippowdon, Yanmega, and Spiritomb, nothing else that I can think of can usually universally switch into Reuniclus (regardless of the set) and win, and even some of these can't do it every time if Stealth Rocks are up or if they have enough prior damage (Mega Blastoise and Yanmega). Also, CM Spiritomb is terrible in a meta where Florges and Slurpuff are everywhere, and Hippowdon loses to CM Reuniclus once it can no longer phase it out. However, I should note that there are other Pokemon, such as Mega Beedrill (U-Turn does up to 90% to the CM set), who can do a great job of applying pressure to Reuniclus, but they can't safely switch into it. Taking the time to scout Reuniclus isn't easy either because if you can't constantly apply pressure to it, it can setup and become harder to KO, or if you try to switch to something to beat the CM set then it could Trick Room. I believe Reuniclus is too good for ORAS UU and should be banned.
     
  5. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    Okay excuse bad droid post...

    To be honest I follow what CP said best,
    Reuniclus is a threat that is very strong vs stall. Then again: Yes, Reuni doesnt have too many switchins, but it cant switch into many off mons itself and needs a CM boost desparately to somewhat function, a luxury it cant afford vs offensive teams cuz its too slow to recover off damage efficiently, even though its bulk is good.

    By means of Taunt, Encore and phazing, bulky teams also have a decent way of stopping Reuniclus if its a CM set. Also its not like this thing makes stall completely unviable - the growing number of Blissey/Mola teams is proof of that.

    Havent talked about the LO TR set up till now - thats cuz I've neither used nor seen it in any UU game I've played. Not only that, but Reuniclus will be relying on a 70 acc move with 8PP to handle a largr part of the mons ppl might throw at it - Focus Blast is all but reliable.

    While Reuniclus is a threat, imo both Offense and bulkier teams have their ways around it (ET and CP gave good examples). Also it beats damn Crocune ;) so im not sure what conclusion to draw. My personal opinion is no ban tho
     
  6. Dånte

    Dånte Member

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    So I'd just like to say that pretty much have the same feeling about Reuniclus as CP. Reuniclus is basically just a fat check to stall which forces them to be able to proactively do something instead of just sponging hits and waiting to passively beat you through status or hazards. HO and balance have very acceptable options to deal with Reuniclus. That is why I do not support a ban of Reuniclus.
     
  7. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    The problem I have with a lot of these arguments are while they admit that clus does one thing excellently; stall/wall break, they completely ignore how difficult it is to switch into. The Trick Room set is a bonnafide offense sweeper. Even with the CM set switch-ins that can successfully force it out are few and far between. According to Viability rankings from S to A- the only things that can switch in safely and force it out are Jirachi and victini. Given ease in which a clus user can conserve their HP with magic guard and reliable recovery (
    Traits that make Clef S ranked in OU
    ) it is quite common to out live offensive revenge killers like tini and Honchcrow. To say Reuniclus is just a check to slower paced teams is a terrible characterization because it fails to demonstrate that it is a win condition that sets up on most of the tier with multiple sets and no viable counters. Things like mega Aboma are just invalidated bc they aren't doing enough to 2hko (basically only wallbreakers can) and therefore will let Clus get to +6. No amount of encore is gonna solve that

    252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Whimsicott: 257-304 (79.5 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
    Dominique-XLR likes this.
  8. Dånte

    Dånte Member

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    While Trick Room Reuniclus is certainly viable in UU, the reason for Reuniclus' suspect discussion is primarily CM set and that is why most of us have been focusing on that set. TR Reun loses out on bulk (runs SpAtk instead of Def), relies on TR for speed, has issues with fatter Pokemon, and loses out on reliable recovery. TR Reun is admittedly better against standard HO compared to CM Reun.
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2015
  9. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    the argument that its only good vs full stall is so lazy its sad. i dont think u guys get the major problem with reun, the problem is that almost nothing on offense/balance that can threaten it can safely switch into it and nothing on stall can actually threaten it. the coverage of psyshock and focus blast/sball doesnt allow for things like mega bee, hydreigon, heracross, etc to switch in and deal with it. you need to sack (im talking from a HO perspective) something to let one of these mons in and they cant even fucking ohko reun. heracross needs band, mega bee cant ohko, banded krook has a large chance to not ohko (30% chance to ohko lel), hydreigon fails if reun is +2 (which it can easily get to because hydreigon and all these other mons cant switch in because of coverage move 50/50 garbage), etc.

    its extremely hard to switch into for all team types, it has a severe lack of counters basically coming down to doublade hoping it doesnt have shadow ball, its ridiculously fat and easily boosts up not taking passive damage, balance and stall cant status it like it can do with cress, and the coverage of psyshock+focus blast creates constant 50/50s for balance and offense. they dont want reun to get boosts but what if it focus blasts this turn on my hydreigon switch, thats the kind of garbage balance has to deal with.

    this is the problem with reun, the problem isnt that it 6-0es stall. theres a ton of shit that 6-0es stall, stall is trash anyway. its affect on balance and sometimes even ho (if they dont have voltturn to constantly keep momentum then reun is gnna get in there) is extremely centralizing.

    and yes whirlwind mandi is garbage, if you use mandi 99% of the time its to defog. @cp your suggestion to use ww over defog is shortsighted because what kind of archetype other than stall is going to run a non defog mandi?
     
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  10. karkinos

    karkinos Lord Of The Car Keys

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    With mew we got another fat psychic type that comes into the CM set no prob and shits on it with taunt. Also, I don't really see where your problem is:
    -yea nothing can switch in to it borked ban
    -wait wat: it cant switch into shit either if not vs stall, and if its effectivity vs stall is not the issue, you'd have to sack something every time you wanna get reuni in vs offense. at worst, this thing may create 50/50s vs its checks on the switch, but does that really make it banworthy? maybe i got this wrong so an explanation would be rly nice, @ThatMushroom @Purpleseamonkey

    also i still havent seen a LO TR reuni anywhere, even tho i run around the ladder quite a bit. also i agree with dante, it sacks lots of bulk by investing into SAtk which doesnt help its longevity either. just talking from experiene...
     
  11. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    we got one thing that beats reun, lets run it on every team y/y?

    lol..
    252+ Atk Mega Swampert Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 172-204 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Cobalion Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 88-105 (20.7 - 24.7%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 189-223 (44.5 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 175-207 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    212 Atk Life Orb Infernape Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 183-216 (43.1 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Life Orb Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 96-114 (22.6 - 26.8%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (31 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 27-33 (6.3 - 7.7%)
    0 SpA Empoleon Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 109-129 (25.7 - 30.4%) -- 1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

    these are just some examples vs some very common shit on offense that reun can switch into, and once its in its 50/50 aids cuz u cant let it recover or boost up but its coverage in just 2 moves is really frustrating. balance and stall are fuckin helpless because they actually have walls which reun leeches off of. its fat as fuck to the point where it can actually do work vs offense and balance and stall are breakfast for it.
     
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  12. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Alright time to wrap this up.

    Reuniclus' presence in the tier is unhealthy for a few reasons. First off, it has a ridiculously good matchup against stall thanks to its ability/stat spread/access to recover. Also, Reuniclus is a ridiculously good (and reliable) win condition thanks to its solid bulk, which allows it to comfortably outlive the (few) offensive threats that can scare it out. Speaking of these, a lot of the pokemons capable of forcing Reuniclus out cannot afford to take a hit from it, making them shaky checks at best. Finally, while Reuniclus truly shines against stall, it is also very good versus other playstyles as it does get its fair share of setup opportunities, at which point it becomes very hard to stop.

    For these reasons, Reuniclus will be banned from ORAS UU.
     
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