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August/September ORAS NU Potential Suspects Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Draciel, Aug 1, 2015.

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  1. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    The changes:

    ORAS LU->ORAS NU

    Claydol
    Golbat
    Hitmonchan
    Magneton

    ORAS NU->ORAS LU
    Ferroseed
    Glalie
    Masquerain
    Shuckle
    Swellow

    Not many interesting changes this cycle; among the drops we have the former NU lord Magneton back in NU, along with Golbat, Hitmonchan and Claydol so removing hazards just got easier! And among the rises Glalie is the most prominent one obviously. So yeah, this NU meta should be fun. Discuss!
     
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  2. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    RIP any possible Sawk suspect lol. Magneton being back in NU should be interesting, glad to have the little magnet back. The other 3 are basically an "FU" to hazards, which is always nice (will note that all 3 are weak to Mesprit's 3 attacks+Rocks sets, so she'll get Rocks up if smart). As far as rises go, only one I really saw on a constant basis is Glalie, which I was almost ready to call border-line broken but now I don't have to worry about it. Swellow and Masquerain moving up make me giggle, other two take out some bulky hazard support. Looks like the metagame is ultimately gearing towards a bulkier format without hazards, should be fun.
     
  3. topah

    topah Active Member

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    finally my lord and prophet, magneton and golbat have returned to their kingdom
    magneton and dugtrio both in NU makes me feel edgy tho
    but i agree it looks fun
    lgi
     
  4. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    iirc Pinsir went to OU so thats gone too. rip stealth rocking in xatu's dumb beak face

    Magneton throwing its weight around in the five or so battles I got this morning. Hitmonchan proving better than I thought with a LO 4 attacks set. Can 2hko Vilepume w/ ice punch and golbat too with rocks up. A strong mach punch is nice too. AV set seems out classed by Hariyama but idk might be half decent, but damage from LO is really valuable imo. Actually surprising how many things I've been able to beat when they think they have a free switch in due to resisting fighting type. People will learn quick tho that fire+ice+fighting coverage hits a lot of the tier, probably will sub out fire punch since its seems redundant.
     
  5. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    Hello?? Drilbur????
    Man these changes almost make me want to play NU again when Magneton leaves. Hitmonchan though, waiting for that one for a long time.
    Golbat, Hitmonchan and Claydol mean NU's hazard removal is suddenly pretty good. Masquerain and Glalie leaving is two major threats out the way. I think it's an interesting shift.
     
  6. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    The thing is that Magneton isn't exactly broken with this meta. Just to name a few stops, there's Claydol (check), Dugtrio (check, but if you lock it into an electric move or have a Sash, then bop), Eelektross (counter, hf beating it), Golurk (check), Lanturn (check if HP Grass) and Houndoom (check). Obviously there's more to count, like Gurdurr and King Kecleon, but I'd argue its stops spread far enough for it to not be a big issue.
     
  7. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Don't forget Rampardos for a Mold Breaker Rocker. Granted, it can just force Xatu etc out with a Rock STAB, but hey. :3
     
  8. Machineae

    Machineae ex NU leader

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    Drilbur sucks tho :o Honestly with how much anti hazard stuff we have now it feels like trying to fit in SR (+spikes) is a bit pointless unless breaking Sturdy and sashes is really pivotal to your teams success. I don't wanna spend a chunk of the game fighting for hazard control ya feel?

    Much to early for me to say if Mag is broken. On paper it looks easily manageable, 70 spe is meh but it gets the added benefit of hitter harder if you outslow your opponent so you can invest just enough to hit key targets you don't want to hit you first then invest the rest in SpA and HP. Magneton feels like a breath of fresh air IMO, I can stop bitching about things being stale with these new drops. Personally I'm running Mag as an offensive pivot on my BO team similar to Rotom (actually w/ Rotom) and I'm having a fair bit of success with it.

    Anyone else think about how Typhlosion would be even more broken in this tier shift? The "always having rocks on the field" argument couldn't be used IMO. Then Mag could also be used w/ it to get a nice slow volt switch in.
     
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  9. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    How is Magneton looking to be broken in anyone's eyes? Are people just getting lazy?

    We just got Claydol, any good variant(especially assault vest) of Kangaskhan beats it, it can only really switch in on Kabutops' Stone Edge, Gurdurr beats it 1v1, Sawk murders it, can't do shit to Lanturn, Scrafty beats it, Drapion should carry EQ, We have primeape/Houndoom/AV Magmortar/etc to check it offensively and let's be honest here, defensive teams are nearly dead in NU anyway. Oh and Virizion is still here.

    I can understand Dugtrio at least but Magneton is completely fine. It's in an average speed tier in a metagame infested with offense, and I'd run Analytic over trapping Mawile, since Registeel can run EQ if you're that scared of Mag.
     
  10. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    With those mons moving up,I can see Scyther becoming a force to be reckoned with as Magnezone is the only new drop that checks it. But then again, Scyther can bypass all non scarf sets by running brick break.
    It's good to see good old Claydol back and Golbat and hitmonchan seem to be back in their rightful tier.
    Now that I post this, Golbat may prove to be yet another check to Scyther but I haven't run to calcs to know. Will give this tier a try now. Lots of toys to play with and I'm especially excited to try Magneton - This little sword points more edges towards my opponents than one.
     
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  11. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Let's breathe some life back into this forum!
    How do you guys feel about the current meta? What do you think is really good or underrated? What do you think isn't as effective? Is anything too good/broken?

    The meta definitely changed a lot, ao I'll start us off. I think Drapion got a lot better recently. Poison/Dark typing is a godsend right now and it has a wide movepool which allows it to fulfill a plethora of roles such as: Sweeper, Stall-breaker, Hazard setter, Bulky wall, and even Scarfer.

    What do you guys think?
     
  12. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Drapion is amazing atm. ban Bronzong though, simply because of how annoying it is.
    Lol, atm I can see Virizion being the single most broken mon atm. Even outspeeding things like Scyther and beating most of it's checks 1v1 with a mere set of SD, Leaf Blade, CC and Stone edge (It's hax if this hits.). The special set is devastating in itself allowing Virizion to escape it's physical checks such as Vileplume and Weezing after a couple of boosts and trying to check both sets of Virizion takes a lot of team space on one's team. I'd get behind a Virizion suspect.
     
  13. topah

    topah Active Member

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    Gotta agree with Drapion being cool (ACCUDRAP) , but its definitely not OP and I've never seen scarf (although I've seen band and specs, wtf?). SD is the most common and it usually rapes slower teams.

    Virizion is pretty tough without something specifically to take care of it. Pixies/Musha are usually bulky enough to come in and tank a +2 Leaf Blade. If it lacks Stone Edge you can come in with Golbat, and it can even come in and take a +2 Stone Edge (or Zen Headbutt) once if max Def. As of the moment I've been beating Virizions (and shell smash scum) for days by using Ditto and counter sweeping with +2 CC or Leaf Blade. Calm Mind variants haven't been giving me problems.

    One thing getting on my nerves at the moment is Registeel, oy ve that bulk. But Xato hard walls all its status and prevents SR and can roost off Tosses, so its not that bad. Most other things you'd switch into Regi don't like a T-wave or a Toxic.

    The drops we got seem to all fit snugly with no real problems, although Tangrowth is low in usage compared to the other 3.

    Also tier is dead lately, I can't find infinite battles like I used too. :<
     
  14. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Zangoose crushes everything in NU not close

    except Mega Audino but whatever, run a Steel or something to beat it nbd
     
  15. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Broken mons coming through:

    [​IMG] Virizion
    Virizion is still extremely effective in the NU metagame, especially with thetas like Swellow and Mega Glalie leaving the tier. Can run a crazy amount of sets with it's movepool and it sits in a very comfortable speed tier. It can choose what walls it thanks to it's great movepool (Stone Edge for Flyings, Zen Headbutt for Fightings, etc...). The SD set is really scary atm when paired with CB Sawk, decimating a number of teams. This mon should be looked at first imo.

    [​IMG] Magneton
    Even with Magtrio gone, Magneton is still incredibly powerful on it's own. Nothing really wants to take a Specs Analytic Thunderbolt/Flash Cannon. It makes teams force to run things like Lanturn, Stunfisk, Rotom-C or Torterra. The loss of Dugtrio also makes things even easier fir Magneton, as it does not have to worry about switching out in case it gets trapped. This thing should leave aswell.

    [​IMG] Sneasel
    Sneasel is a powerful mon in NU. Dark/Ice is extremely great offensive typing coupled with it's blazing 115 Speed tier. LO/CB Knock Off's from this mon are hard to take. Yes there are Fightings, but a great partner for Sneasel is either Musharna or Sigilyph who deal with them. I think this thing has run it's course in NU, and it should be banned (Although the first two should be banned first...)
     
  16. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    I don't really feel Magneton is broken, and Sneasel is more than manageable even after the shift. I can get behind a Virizion suspect testing though for reasons mentioned in my last post.
     
  17. topah

    topah Active Member

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    doesn't Rhydon tank it for days? esp now that its rarer for them to run SD because muh knock off
    spiritomb can come in too and there are a variety of things that revenge it
    also mach punch users spook it, and mega audi as you mentioned
     
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  18. Left Brain

    Left Brain New Member

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    I've hovered suspect threads for quite a while but never joined in, so I guess I'll start doing so.
    The thing that makes Virizion tough in my mind is it's ability to run both Special and Physical sets, often times requiring either a bit of guess-work based on the rest of the opponent's team, or a turn to scout it out. I'm not sure that it's broken, because there are some notable checks out there in Golbat, Scarfed Magmortar, Mega Dino (against the physical variant), Scyther,Mesprit to name some that come to mind, but I wouldn't be anti-suspect if it brought out some good points.
    I'm curious to see if anyone else sees Clawitzer as much of a threat as I do right now. It's not that it doesn't have checks/counters, because it absolutely does, IE Rotom-C, Virizion, Eelektross come to mind without thinking much. The problem I see with it is how hard it is to switch into. There are only a few mons I can think of that can safely switch in on it and do anything meaningful because of it's wide covering movepool, IE Lanturn, Mantine(ugh), Hariyama because after that, you're playing mind games a bit and hoping the switch isn't predicted, and having to revenge kill to beat it isn't fun.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2015
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  19. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    I'd second Left Brain on the Clawitzer part. I've been running it for quite a while now and it's rather easy getting kills with this really. Even and Av set has few viable switchins and has incredible bulk at the same time.
    The three mons that come to mind atm I can see as brokem are Registeel, Claw and Virizion. Virizion isn't nearly as much a threat without Registeel around as in a core of Registeel + Virizion, Registeel cockblocks all of Virizion's threats. Virizion by itself isn't nearly as hard to deal with though. Registeel also provides utility to many of the other sweepers in the metagame and while it is cockblocked by Xatu, I feel this thing too good of a support mon to stay.
    I can get behind a Registeel and Clawitzer suspect atm. Virizion is good but much more manageable without the added support.
    (Also there is a huge difference in utility between Bronzong and Regi. For one, Regi has much superior bulk, and secondly gets Twave. And while Bronzong isn't weak to Ground, it is weak to Dark and Ghost. Two types reay hard switching into.)
     
  20. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Virizion's ability to run sweeper sets on both spectrums makes broken. It has 120 bp physical AND special stab. It can run good coverage options that beat/limit checks such as stone edge, Zen headbutt, Hp rock, and hp ice. It can boost attacking power with items or have a better time setting up with lum berry. This mon is blazing fast for nu with great setup options. Virizion can threaten any type of team and is quite good at surviving special hits from offensive mons.
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 265-315 (75 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Rock vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 166-198 (47 - 56%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 228 Def Mantine: 302-356 (90.6 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gourgeist-Large: 338-398 (95.4 - 112.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 239-283 (85 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Rock vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Scyther: 322-380 (114.5 - 135.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 283-335 (80.1 - 94.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 242-286 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 116-138 (35.8 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Audino: 324-382 (79 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Adino is a normal type so running it as my Viriz check is a bad call when it cant switch in. It gets ohkoed after rocks at +2 by the special set. So even if it switches on a calm mind, it only does ~40% on the next cm and then dies to a +2 focus blast. The same is even more true for the physical set who can live a hit, get to +4 and ohko without rocks.

    +1 to @Left Brain for the username

    I really don't see how we didn't ban malamar, has been such a problem in the tier for so long.
    Same goes for how we havent supected MAdino
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2015
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  21. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    252+ Atk Toxic Boost Zangoose Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 168-198 (40.5 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    (I guess you can switch in on CC once, but who runs max def Rhydon??)
    Anyway saying "Zangoose is unbeatable" is obvious hyperbole, but it really does just dismantle a lot of defensive cores that don't pack enough bulk against Normal+Fighting coverage, since Toxic Boosted Facade alone 2hkos basically every non-resist short of max def Mega Audino or maybe Avalugg or something
    Especially since it feels like there's more Golbat, Musharna, Weezing, and such these days instead of Rhydon

    Virizion might have been more annoying but there are so many bulky psychics in the tier, just pick one and go to town on it with Psyshock, pretty much anything that resists CC and is bulky can check it from my experience (even Spiritomb) since only having 90 base attack really hurts it esp when it really wants to run non-Life Orb items to take advantage of its tankiness (on SD set specifically, but LO CM isn't significantly more powerful anyway)

    Although I haven't had trouble against Clawitzer specifically, from my personal experience both playing with and against Samurott is incredibly strong as well, Water STAB is just really powerful atm (RIP Milotic)
     
  22. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Just run a psychic is a terrible argument. All of them lose on switchin. Only swoobat can outspeed

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mesprit: 285-335 (94.6 - 111.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
    Mesprit is easily ohkoed on switch in to sd

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 179-212 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Uxie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Uxie is 2hkoed while it fails to ko with psyshock. Cant even twave because they could still have lum before they attack

    Sigilyph is 1hkoed by +0 stone edge
    252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sigilyph: 265-315 (92.6 - 110.1%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

    Swoobat runs stored power (does ~13%) and gets 1hkoed by +0 stone edge

    Musharna is 2hkoed by +2 leaf blade and fails to 1hko with psyshock
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 179-212 (50.5 - 59.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Uxie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Xatu gets 1hkoed by stone edge +0
    252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Xatu: 294-348 (88 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

    None of the nu psychics can switch into virizion.

    I dont know what kind of Spiritomb can do anything to virizion. Its basically setup bait
    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Spiritomb: 203-239 (66.7 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Spiritomb: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 0 Atk Spiritomb Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 158-186 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO
    0 Atk Spiritomb Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 53-63 (16.3 - 19.4%) -- possible 6HKO
    So both sorts of virizion kill Spiritomb and the cm set can use it to boost

    90 base attack argument lacks perspective. It has 90 in both attacking stats with two 120 bp stab, 2 boosting moves, and the ability to run life orb. Exploud also "just" has base 90 attack, how ever was it banned?
     
  23. topah

    topah Active Member

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    I dunno about Claw, I wanna see more talk about it though

    and lemme just
    Swoobat runs Psyshock, Air Slash, and Heat Wave more than Stored Power, all 3 of which threaten Virizion

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 183-216 (41.9 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    either Psychic or Psyshock both 2hko, and both 1hko if Virizion has used a CC and has -1 Defences
    Trevenant and Gourgeist are also good switch-ins to any physical variant
    if it has Stone Edge Vileplume, Weezing, and some Muk, Qwilfish, Garbodor can come in as well
     
  24. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Exactly what idiot runs 0 hp 4 def Mesprit and expects it to be a 'bulky' psychic?

    Also Lum Virizion isnt 2hkoing Uxie after SD anyway so TWaving is safe regardless (unless Sub but let's be reasonable here)

    Spiritomb at least threatens Will-o-Wisp and can chip down Virizion into range for basically any scarfer to revenge or force it out

    Also please don't compare fucking Exploud of all things (140 BP STAB that hit for neutral on EVERY Pokemon in the game that doesn't get completely dismantled by Focus Blast) to Virizion who has to run a boosting move if it ever wants to break a Fighting resist of which there are a ton in NU, if you think the two are remotely similar you have no idea how good Scrappy Normal STAB is
     
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2015
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  25. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Not going to make a full post just yet, but there is definitely something very very dodgy surrounding your calcs that I wanted to adress ASAP.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Mesprit Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Clawitzer: 177-211 (51.1 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Mesprit Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 322-382 (97.2 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

    252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Clawitzer: 204-242 (58.9 - 69.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Magneton Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 372-440 (112.3 - 132.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Clawitzer doesn't OHKO Mesprit either, ignoring the fact that Colbur is a fairly common item to see on Mesprit as well.

    252+ SpA Mega Launcher Clawitzer Dark Pulse vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 260-308 (80.2 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


    There is also the small difference of this Clawitzer being outsped by almost everything as well as being fairly weak and extremely wallable due to it not having strong moves or a boosting item. The Samurott outspeeds about every wall in NU and has access to taunt to shut out extremely bulky ones like M-Audino. When making a post, please don't fake calcs. I know you want to show off the good features of your pokemon, but lying about calcs is dishonest and doesn't further your argument. These calcs don't prove anything either, why are you using your water mon to take on electric type attacks just to get 2hko'd. I really can't tell what you're trying to prove here, at all.

    I'll make a full post on my thoughts concerning the mons being addressed later!
     
  26. Left Brain

    Left Brain New Member

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    I'll admit I didn't account for Colbur Mesprit. I honestly don't see it much here and I was purely using LO Mesprit because it's the most commonly run variety I tend to see on PO and it served the point as an example of something AV Claw could take a hit from.
    However, I totally wasn't faking anything, it was error in entering them, as I said in my first comment, I'm new to doing this even though I've hovered for quite awhile and have been on PO for years, I don't usually run calcs to prove/help support a point or really for any reason other than to check things in battle very occasionally, I mistakenly adjusted a base stat in the process of setting these up to account for something that obviously didn't need it. I'll redo my calcs/ double check them next time so I don't seem disingenuous, I apologize for that, rookie-posting mistake. I wouldn't intentionally throw out garbage to debate things with people who obviously know what they're talking about, there's nothing to gain from that other than looking bad. Won't be this bad at this going forward now that I know what I'm doing with the damage calc.
    The point I originally brought up was how hard it is to switch into Clawitzer, which I stand behind. The ability for a 'mon to take any one of it's 4 attacks on the switch is lacking, particularly if it's Specs. Once it's choice locked, it's easy to wall and force a switch or handle offensively for sure, which is helped by it's speed, but that creates a bit of a mind game, which is where I got curious to see if other see it as the same threat I do. The AV set calcs were to dictate it's ability to eat hits it couldn't reliably do with it's Specs set, but the Samurott comparison wasn't needed to do that, sort of let my thoughts get off course by mentioning it, another rookie mistake. I'll wait to see what you've got to say about it before trying to push my view-point further, I could be over-looking something that would sway my opinion, I just see it as a major threat atm.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2015
  27. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    Time for a longish post!

    Virizion:
    So, Virizion has two main sets that I'll be focusing on: SD 3 attack and CM. I personally feel that CM Virzion is lacking due to weaker coverage moves and how easily it can be checked. It has to run HP Ice for all the Grass and Flying types in the tier alongside Giga Drain and Focus Blast. I saw Purpleseamonkey use HP Rock in his calcs, to hit Fire types alongside Flying types, but giving up HP Ice just leads to more trouble because you get walled by more mons than you gain by changing Hidden Powers. So keeping this in mind, the set I'll be talking about will consist of: Calm Mind/Focus Blast/Giga Drain/HP Ice. The standard gameplame for this is to setup on weak special attackers and bulky water/grass types to try and run through with your blazing speed (relative to most NU mons), but it runs into a lot of problems here. The first is the difficulty it has in setting up. I'll use LO in these calcs since it really needs the additional power to do any sort of damage. A very common water type that you'd like to setup on would be Lanturn, but Lanturn actually can freely status Virizion because of how weak it is (Either Toxic to rack up residual damage alongside LO or T-Wave to impede it's sweep or it can Volt Switch to a faster threat (Scarf Sawk/Mesprit, Sneasel, Archeops, or Cincinno for instance). If Virizion decided to try and setup, Lanturn even comes out completely unscathed.

    252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 104 HP / 212+ SpD Lanturn: 221-265 (52.9 - 63.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    As you can see, even LO Giga Drain is easily survivable when SE. Lanturn is free to status or Volt out then and just do what Lanturns do, annoy the hell out of you! In fact, Lanturn can even live a +1 LO Giga Drain if the need arises. Other common answers include: Sigilyph, Musharna, Uxie, Mesprit, Golbat, Scyther, Hariyama, Xatu, Togetic, Garbodor, Magmortar, Trevenant, Mantine, Rotom-S and it can be checked by most Scarfers as well as pokemon like Sneasel/Archeops/Cincinno who naturally outspeed it.

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sigilyph: 239-283 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sigilyph Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 377-447 (116.3 - 137.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Musharna: 191-226 (44.1 - 52.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Musharna Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 240-284 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (Can Twave as well)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Uxie: 110-133 (31 - 37.5%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Uxie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (Can Twave as well)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Mesprit: 179-212 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Mesprit Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 296-350 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    (Can Twave as well) - (Virizion outspeeds, so it will take LO Recoil first meaning Mesprit has a Guaranteed OHKO OR Virzion will risk the 50% chance to go to +2 and still fail to kill, Mesprit comes out on top either way and Mesprit OHKOs Virizion if Modest)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 166-198 (47 - 56%) -- 77.7% chance to 2HKO
    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 180+ SpD Eviolite Golbat: 125-148 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 564-664 (174 - 204.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    (He ded)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Scyther: 161-190 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
    8 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 556-660 (171.6 - 203.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    (He ded)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 214-253 (49.8 - 58.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Hariyama Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 267-315 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Hariyama Bullet Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 60-71 (18.5 - 21.9%) -- possible 5HKO

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Xatu: 265-315 (79.5 - 94.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 SpA Xatu Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 218-258 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (Can Twave/Roost)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Togetic: 94-112 (30 - 35.7%) -- 24.4% chance to 3HKO
    0 SpA Togetic Dazzling Gleam vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 78-92 (24 - 28.3%) -- 92.6% chance to 4HKO
    (Twaves, then wins with Roost/Gleam (or can switch if the user feels like it)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 175-207 (48 - 56.8%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO
    0 Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 324-384 (100 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant: 161-192 (43 - 51.3%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO
    4 Atk Trevenant Phantom Force vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 138-163 (42.5 - 50.3%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
    (Trevenant Wisps, then Phantom forces + Sitrus Berry/Harvest shenanigans)

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 228+ SpD Mantine: 109-129 (32.7 - 38.7%) -- 4.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Mantine Air Slash vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 148-180 (45.6 - 55.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Virizion Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-S: 190-224 (78.8 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Rotom-S Air Slash vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 340-408 (104.9 - 125.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    (Scarf outspeeds and 2hkos)

    Now onto the bigger threat, SD. SD will almost certainly be running Close Combat (strongest STAB) and Leaf Blade which leaves the last slot to either Stone Edge or Zen Headbutt. I won't be fixating my argument on this, but looking at usage stats we can see that Stone Edge is seen much more commonly, so we'll be using that in our calcs and discussion. So, what's the game plan for this? It's pretty similar to the CM set, setup on weak mons like Lanturn and try to sweep. This set is more able to run Lum Berry opposed to Life Orb due to more powerful moves/reliable moves (Close Combat having 100% accuracy, Leaf Blade have 15 higher base power than Giga Drain, and Stone Edge having a whopping 40 Base Power over Hidden Power. On paper, this looks incredibly threatening, and it certain is a top tier threat to watch out for; however, it's certainly not without it's own answers. Pretty much every bulky poison type and Psychic type will have no problem with this (I'm looking at pokemon such as: Weezing, Garbodor, Golbat, Vileplume, Qwilfish, Muk, Musharna, Mesprit, Uxie, Exeggutor) as well as bulky mons in general that aren't weak to it's STABs (Gurdurr, Granbull, Tangrowth, Gourgeist/Trevenant)

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 108-128 (32.3 - 38.3%) -- 2.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    0 SpA Weezing Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 134-162 (41.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
    (Weezing can either 3hko w/ Sludge Bomb or Wisp twice, then Pain Split)

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 152-179 (41.7 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 Atk Garbodor Gunk Shot vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 324-384 (100 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +1 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 148-175 (44.3 - 52.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    0 Atk Qwilfish Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 218-258 (67.2 - 79.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Golbat: 204-242 (57.7 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 Atk Golbat Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 564-664 (174 - 204.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 136-160 (38.5 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    0 SpA Vileplume Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 168-200 (51.8 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Muk: 215-254 (61 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Muk Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 324-384 (100 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Musharna: 183-216 (42.2 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Musharna Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 240-284 (74 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mesprit: 220-259 (67.9 - 79.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Mesprit Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 324-384 (100 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Uxie: 138-163 (38.9 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 SpA Uxie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 148+ Def Exeggutor: 150-177 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    0 SpA Exeggutor Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Virizion: 188-224 (58 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 175-207 (46.7 - 55.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252 Atk Virizion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 234-276 (62.5 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Gurdurr Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 153-180 (47.2 - 55.5%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Gurdurr Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 82-97 (25.3 - 29.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    This gets a little complicated, so let's do math! If played correctly, the Virizion player should first Leaf Blade, then Close Combat to avoid the Defence drops. The Gurdurr player will then Drain Punch. Leaf Blade will do an average of 189 damage to Gurdurr leaving it at 185. Gurdurr will then Drain Punch back doing an average of 166 damage, healing 83. This will leave Gurdurr at 268 and Close Combat will do an average of 253 meaning Gurdurr lives Leaf Blade+Close Combat. It then will kill back with 2 Drain Punches leaving Gurdurr at around 30% after Virizion faints. If the Virizion player Close Combats first (which I often see), Gurdurr can Drain Punch the -1 Virizion for ~249 damage and then Mach Punch after leaving Gurdurr at a healthy 65%. Regardless, Gurdurr comes out on top.

    +1 252 Atk Virizion Leaf Blade vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Granbull: 151-178 (39.4 - 46.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Granbull Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 296-350 (91.3 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Large: 107-126 (30.2 - 35.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Gourgeist is free to Will-o-wisp twice, and if it has it, synthesis up.

    +2 252 Atk Virizion Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 187-222 (46.4 - 55%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    0 Atk Tangrowth Poison Jab vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 152-180 (46.9 - 55.5%) -- 74.6% chance to 2HKO

    Virizion isn't took fast to the point where it can't be revenge killed either as it is outsped by faster threats that I mentioned before such as Sneasel, Archeops, Cincino/Ambipom, and most scarfers (Mesprit/Sawk/Rotom-S for instance).

    tldr; I'm not convinced that Virizion is broken.

    I'll talk about Clawitzer later!
     
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  28. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Am going to mention Registeel a second time. This thing is nothing but a superior Steelix, and has way more utility than Bronzong with Thunderwave and a much higher bulk. Registeel makes amazing cores with pretty much every mon the tier atm. registeel + Golbat,Reegisteel + Audino, Registeel + Xatu, and is overall very hard taking down, especially when paired with Audino and most mons that usually switch into it really don't like being hit by a thunder wave or toxic. Those that do (I'm looking at you Gurdurr), are rather easily stalled out by pretty every other defensive mon that Registeel makes a core with, be it Vileplume, Golbat, or even Audino. Atm I feel Registeel is way too bulky and too good of a glue for the NU metagame. I am willing to argue this further and atm I would really like to see this get the hammer.

    As for the Virizion post, it is actually blazing fast and will take down it's would be checks unless running scarf, provided stone edge hits (Scyther, vivillion of the like). Sneasel and Archeops are viable checks though I don't see how Cinccino revenges Virizion. Ambipom's Ice punch isn't a OHKO either unless Virizion has the drop from CC earlier.
    252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 234-276 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    On a side note though, glad to see Raikage work towards balancing out NU. This tier seems to have a much better future than the highest two lol. Not to start a war.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2015
  29. Casparov

    Casparov This is supposed to be a Medal!

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    You know steelix is LU right?
     
  30. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    I meant Registeel. Idk why I confused typing out Registeel with Steelix lol.
     
  31. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I never said Ambipom/Cincinno were counters or checks, I listed them as potential revenge killers! Sorry if that was confusing, you also did not take into account Ambipom's Fake Out either!
    252 Atk Life Orb Technician Ambipom Fake Out vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 140-165 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- 4.7% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Ambipom Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 238-281 (73.4 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (STAB Return/Frustration will always be stronger than an un-STAB Elemental punch for future reference)

    Virizion is definitely super fast, especially in nu. I am not discounting its speed in the slightest, but it's not the fastest either. Pretty much every scarfer will outspeed it, other ones that slipped my mind include Tauros/Swellow who also revenge kill. Revenge killing isn't the best argument regardless, which is why I listed all the checks/counters first.

    Onto Registeel!

    This will sound very controversial to some of you, but I kind of consider Registeel to be not that great of a mon. I'm going to arbitrarily make up "stats" by why I'd rank Registeel:

    Support- 4/5 - SR Twave (or Toxic), and immense bulk means it will reliably get up rocks every game and most likely status a thing or two. It has a fairly rare typing in NU with there being only 8 other viable Steels: Magneton, Mawile, Bronzong, Ferroseed, Klinklang, Pawniard, Probopass, and Metang. The last 3 aren't really that good either, but they do have niches so I listed them.

    Offensive Presence- 1/5 - It has decent coverage in Iron Head/Earthquake (or Stoss+move of choice), but it is so non threatening offensively that it's almost ridiculous. Its Attack is a measly base 75, and its coverage moves aren't the most powerful either. Pokemon like Golbat and Garbodor remedy their medicore attacks with powerful moves, but Registeel has no such luck.

    0 Atk Registeel Iron Head vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Virizion: 90-106 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (Even Virizion isn't 3hko'd by its STAB move)
    0 Atk Registeel Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sneasel: 218-260 (86.8 - 103.5%) -- 25% chance to OHKO (Sneasel has a 75% chance to live a Super Effective physical STAB move...)
    0 Atk Registeel Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Garbodor: 102-122 (28 - 33.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO (Garbodor can spike up 3 times, then Pain Split half its health back.
    0 Atk Registeel Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Audino: 84-102 (20.4 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO (M-Audino can actually setup on Registeel because it's so weak.

    Threatening Factor- 0/5 - No one is afraid of Registeel. You don't think, "Oh no! A Registeel! It's all over" when you see on in team preview. It's just not scary. What you think is, "How will I get rid of this?" or "How annoying".

    Registeel is really not comparable to M-Steelix at all. M-Steelix had immense bulk ALONGSIDE incredible Attack with powerful moves (STAB Heavy Slam+Earthquake) with ridiculous physical bulk. M-Steelix had close to 500 defense with no investment whatsoever. It could live Banded Sawks Close Combat without investing in defense.

    There are numerous pokemon that actually enjoy having Registeel in, Weezing/Garbodor/Qwilfish adore the opportunity to get free hazards up. Rhydon can't be paralyzed, takes about 20% from Iron Head, and deals about 60% in return with Earthquake (Hell, it can switch in, get up Rocks, SD up, then ohko with Earthquake (or 2hko if you're Roar/Megahorn/w.e). Gurdurr says thanks for the Guts boost. Xatu completely shuts it down and can retaliate with Heat Wave. It doesn't beat the Defoggers (Golbat has Taunt so it doesn't even have to get T-Waved or it might have Super Fang to get a free 50% off you. Pelipper takes close to Leftovers damage from Iron Head and doesn't mind Twave because it's already fairly slow. It can then fire off Scalds in an attempt to burn. Even Skuntank avoids getting 2hko'd by Registeel's EQ and can Taunt+Defog, Claydol and Sandslash certainly don't fear anything and Hitmonchan is pretty fine as well. The only ones it can threaten really are Shiftry (Twave is annoying) and Togetic (if it gets para-flinched to death, Iron head is a 4-5hko).

    This is not to say that Registeel is an objectively bad pokemon. When you use Registeel, you do it with the intent of stopping types of pokemon (Ice/Normal/Grass/Poison/Psychic/Flying/Bug), but the problem is most of these mons don't really care too much.
    Ambipom-Low Kick, Knock Off
    Cincinno-Low Kick, Knock Off
    Tauros- Earthquake
    Sigilyph- Heat Wave
    Archeops-Earthquake
    Sneasel-Knock Off, Low Kick
    Drapion-Knock Off, Earthquake
    Jynx-Focus Blast
    Scyther-U-Turn out to mon that beats it, Brick Break, or even Knock Off to get rid of its recovery
    Shiftry-Knock Off, Low Kick
    Tangrowth-Focus Blast (Knock Off/Leech Seed/Sleep Powder from the defensive set)
    Vivillion/Vileplume-Sleep Powder
    Lilligant- Sleep Powder
    Qwilfish-Scald+Pain Split (or Taunt)

    It's very easy to put the Registeel user in terrible positions because of how passive it is. I just can't see it as broken because it has great bulk, sorry.

    I'm curious to hear what you guys think of the following pokemon though:
    Rotom-C
    Magneton
    Sigilyph
    Magmortar
    Sneasel
     
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  32. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Sigilyph is broken only when against stall teams, as offensive teams seem to have a much easier time against this. Anyway, I wasn't referring to Mega Steelix in the comparison. Apart from those mons you mention above, another mon I see as very unhealthy for the tier is Throh. Idk about hyper offensive teams but this thing has a rather easy time setting up against bulkier builds and forces teams to be running a ghost type in order to bypass it's storm throw/circle throw. It can be phazed out yes, but phazing isn't really a solid answer and I cannot think of many non-passive phazers in the tier. Imo forcing teams to run ghosts is overcentralizing and really so. Few mons such as the fairies of NU. Mega Audino of the like may be able to beat it 1v1, but even most poisons of the tier such as defensive Vileplume in itself and such do not form strong answers to this. Weezing is yet another mon I can see checking this but it doesn't really do much apart from going into an indefinite PP stall against it.
     
  33. Left Brain

    Left Brain New Member

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    One thing I'd like to add on the Registeel point is that it does usually run Seismic Toss, which wasn't brought up and it helps at least balance out it's bad base Atk. stat and deal neutral damage to anything not ghost. It's ability to eat special hits is really impressive, and it can be nice glue for cores because of that and it's utilitarian function, but I don't really think that it's too much for the tier either, at least not as things stand, I run it frequently and can attest to it's given issues being pretty bothersome.
    Anyhow, of the mentioned, at first glance Rotom-C is an interesting one that jumps out at me the most, particularly when it runs Trick. It's a pretty opportunistic 'mon that utilizes the function very well and can absolutely cripple walls, and typically forces a switch, giving an interesting turn of momentum. You pretty much either get a free chance to WoW, or to Volt Switch out to follow up the momentum, depending on the set/preference. I could see it being particularly troublesome to bulkier archetyped teams because of it's ability to play around a team and then trick any potential threat into being choice locked. It's still good and more than capable against balanced/offensively based teams, your options widen a bit as far as the pool of potential counters/checks, things like banded Sawk/Scyther, Magmortar, Hariyama come to mind immediately to make up at least considerable answers. I'm not going to dedicate to saying it's too much for the tier entirely, but there seems to be a case to be made for sure. Beyond Rotom-C, I have less of an opinion on the other named potential threats and will wait and see what others have to say.
     
  34. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Rotom-C and Magneton: I'm going to throw these both together, because they are both actually very similar. Both are pretty reliant on their items which in most every case of offensive teams is Choice Scarf when it's a momentum grabber, or Specs when a team needs to try and break through stuff. That's where their bread and butter is, and it's something you have to prepare for in the tier. Rotom-C's Electric/Grass coverage is somewhat hard to theoretically counter, but with the fact that if it has to Leaf Storm, that's giving an opponent free turns to set up if they have something capable of doing so, and likewise Magneton getting a general Choice lock into Flash Cannon or say HP Grass when it doesn't want to, can cause momentum losses. There's a lot you have to do for each Pokemon in a match in general to make them work to their full potential. Both have low HP, both hit hard, both are moderately fast for the tier, and their typings are both pretty good, so that's pretty tough to take in on the surface. Though digging a bit deeper while you don't have say conventional switch ins to Pokemon, they have their fair share of troubles against various bulky Pokemon, and if they aren't Scarf they have their troubles against a whole lot of Offensive Pokemon, and even some people use as Supports that don't normally consider them for offensive uses, as both Pokemon can not take excess hits if you want to conserve them for their momentum getting roles. Though given that each have a non-choiced set that can be used as surprise factor or to force switches in general (Rotom-C can work with stuff around Wisp and Pain Split on sets, and Magneton has the Eviolite or can run a LO set), but I feel a lot of their roles in the metagame hinge on their Choiced sets, and in a lot of matches on them being Scarf to generate easy momentum against bad teams.

    Magmortar: Mortar like the above, kind of hinges on Choiced sets to be useful, or hoping it can get away with a bit more....hm I'll use "gimmicked/neutered" sets into working, such as some kind of Salac or hoping that it's facing a moderately slow team that LO will just blast through. It has enough speed to be an offensive threat to many slower Pokemon, a lot of teams like to use Scarf as a cleaner because if you can wear the opposing team down it has a large 125 base special attack to fire off nukes with, though that's literally it having to be used as a cleaner and that's not really the best argument for something to be suspect unless it gets something more out of it, the Specs is obviously made to wall break, but at times it requires some hit and running because gotta pick the right moves, and sometimes they aren't enough truthfully, against certain threats. I mean I know it's a bit overwhelming (I hit you with 6 straight Specs Fire Blasts and just demolished you thanks to it), the mixed set is pretty damn good with EQ being able to hit Lanturn or Flareon ya know, or some other flash fire things people might use (HOUNDOOM DOGGY DOG) though gotta lure people into it, and generally likes to work against slower Pokemon to knowingly force the switches. I can see why, I'm not sure I support a suspect right now, maybe.

    Sneasel: Top tier mon, needs preparation for, it's pretty damn hard to cover Ice and Dark on a team for resistances especially with how difficult it is to work around Knock Off, and the fact it gets access to Low Kick for steels. Unless they are being hit for super effective though which is what Sneasel aims to do, most of it's hits are 2HKOs, and outside being low HP yourself, you can generally KO it back, which isn't a problem for some of the bulkier Pokemon. Sneasel against frail Pokemon is generally a win for it, but if you run a full frail offensive team that can't answer one of the fastest Pokemon in the tier, I'd say you are more than deserving to lose to it. There are answers if you want to resists with pivots though, like Mawile, Qwilfish, Mega Audino, Granbull, Poliwrath, Hariyama, Weezing. It's moveslot is also a little clustered too, with the need for Icicle Crash and Knock Off for sure, and wanting to run moves ranging to Ice Shard, Pursuit, Low Kick, and Swords Dance. Also since it never would be able to run it itself since it needs power, it has a fair lot of trouble against general Scarf users due to low bulk, and doesn't like running into any form of priority from a good user unless it's carrying Ice Shard to avoid the SP users.

    Sigilyph: This would probably be a top pick from me to discuss really. Against stall or defensive teams technically it's pretty broken in the sense. CM Roost with Magic Guard and Psyshock/Heat Wave to attack means unless you have a Spiritomb or say general Dark type (Don't think you will ever see a Houndoom on anything non-offensive) you will get destroyed by Sigilyph. Against offensive based teams, it will have a harder time, though you can pick what extra coverage to put into it so you can hit more targets. Access to Dazzling Gleam means it can hit Spiritomb and other Dark types, running Energy Ball is always funny and good for some bulkier Pokemon that would try to "Switch in" to say Psyshock and absorb that hit (Rhydon, Lanturn, Gastrodon, etc). Scarf users really spell trouble for Sigilyph since it wants to do so much, but running Scarf itself can be somewhat problematic since you want to have access to any given move at any time for switches otherwise you lose momentum having to take it out or just decide to sack Sigi just to save a mon some trouble. It has a great speed with 322 being max (319 is what I go for though since everyone invests max, it's probably better to win the speed ties but I like throwing a few extra EVs to the bulk side never know tbh). It's pretty capable of 2HKO'ing most of the general tier, it has enough bulk and a fairly good typing to cover common offensive threats and generally is 2HKO'd by other offensive threats unless they hit for super effective damage or are boosted by Band, Specs, or a stat booster. Small case of a TL;DR - Out of any threat in the tier, it probably composes one of the largest threat to every play style not all at once, but just being on a team and having to actually prepare for the set that will give you many problems, and heck just a CM 3 attacks will threaten every playstyle still despite it might lack a move to cover a certain threat to it.

    Just what I see on those ones.

    Well that's generally how CM and Bulk Up users work against bulkier offensive Pokemon. They are supposed to take advantage of the fact that they generally like to combine to do passive damage most times, and pick off when weakened if they can help it, and CM/BU users take advantage of that to just set up entirely, and which is why you'd consider having a penultimate counter to most of them in some form, and use something to prevent them from setting up (or use your own stat boosters to match). Problem I have with the Throh argument is that pretty reliant on being BU, Rest, Sleep Talk (so it doesn't lose momentum), and Attack Move. Most of the ghosts in the tier aren't bad, and can use it to set up forcing it out easily. Various Trick users don't have a problem with it, bulky Pokemon like Rotom Fan, Specs Exeggutor can be found on Bulky offensive teams and good luck beating that Throh unless Knock Off by sacking Sleep Talk. If you find Garbodor or Weezing on bulky builds, there's a fair chance that they can run Clear Smog or Haze to be a handle to stat boosters, some Weezing can run taunt too. I think there's actually a fair amount of ideal options for niche things like Throh that people just don't naturally consider on a team, because there's a lot more that want to cover instead. The list is kind of large though, and it's pretty dependent on the Throh set too (whether it's KO or Sleep Talk using).
     
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  35. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Rotom-C: Top tier pokemon but will never be broken, it is very good at what it does but it is almost never unbeatable. Trick is massively gimped by the fact that it doesn't work on the bulkiest wall in NU (Mega Audino)

    Magneton: Worse than Rotom-C overall IMO (Leaf Storm >>> Flash Cannon, and Levitate+Scald resist makes Rotom-C better at checking waters esp Gastrodon and Lanturn) but it does beat Mega Audino 1v1 and resist Normal/Flying if that's relevant for your team synergy

    Magmortar: Probably the best offensive Fire-type, though it's still possible to switch in on it depending on its coverage move and it's not fast enough to decimate offensive teams without a speed boost
    Scarf is fine but is far worse against defensive Pokemon and it's not a Typhlosion-tier cleaner in general (or really even on the level of Sawk tbh)

    Sneasel: It's fine I guess but it's frail, SR weak, and loses really hard to Fighting types, not close to broken until a mass exodus of them occurs

    Sigilyph: Pursuit bait but it's a strong offensive Pokemon, not particularly bulky and not amazingly fast so it's not going to sweep offensive teams by itself.
    Skuntank and Drapion can deal with it pretty easily if you absolutely can't beat it otherwise and are just very useful to have on defensive teams to beat other CM Psychics anyway though
     
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  36. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Just going to make a note. I was looking at usage stats earlier today, and as of now, the stats look like the following shifts will happen so far:

    NU to LU
    Eelektross
    Malamar
    Rotom-C
    Spiritomb
    Virizion
    Xatu

    LU to NU
    Camerupt
    Masquerain
    Swellow

    Feel free to discuss. Here's a tinyurl of the stats thus far.

    www.tinyurl.com/o3ehg34
     
  37. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Omg, yes!
    Shifts could never be more justified than that!
    I'd kill to see Xatu and male Nicki Minaj leave.
    Virizion leaving is pretty welcome too.
    Not sure if I want to see Eelektross and Rotom-C leave though. And with Spiritomb, we'll have lost (Arguably) the best spin blocker the tier has.
    Lu > Nu drops are more than justified, and I hope it remains this way till the end of the month.
     
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  38. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I'll be updating it if I see anything, but as of now everything's still standing. With the changes, I can really see Lanturn becoming a staple for teams, with Vileplume being a central deterrent. Lanturn+Sawk should be a really good combo (slow VoltSwitch into powerhouse) with Magneton being an option for that too.
     
  39. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Here are my opinions:
    Rise:
    Eelektross: Never really used it, AV is nice, and could see it going to LU to check Mega Steelix
    Malamar: Actually suprised to see this thing rise to LU. Do not think it was broken in NU, but glad that is is getting some love.
    Rotom-C: Expected, as it is a great MegaLix check. With it gone, Magneton would rise in viability in my eyes.
    Spiritomb: Thank god this thing is gone. CB was hitting pretty hard, and Ghost/Dark was amazing offensively. CM Snarl was also annoying to face.
    Virizion: Get this broken pos out of NU for heaven's sake. Virizion was just too good for NU. All kinds of sets + Amazing stats pushed it over the edge. Expectiing to see more Sawk now.
    Xatu: Surprised to see this rise too. I guess Magic Bounce is valuable in LU or something. Could see it drop in future.

    Drop:
    Camerupt: Idk if it is just me, but Mega Camerupt is gonna be looking incredibly powerful in NU. It's basically a more bulky and powerful albeit slower Magmortar, which is already an issue. Woudn't be suprised to see this get banned in the future.
    Masquerain: Why was this in LU anyway?
    Swellow: ^

    Hazards are more easier to set up now since we lost Xatu and a spinblocker.
     
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  40. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Rises:
    Eelektross and Rotom-C: Them leaving means Lanturn is probably going to spike since it fills a similar role while crushing its competition (Magneton) 1v1; this means Gastrodon in particular is probably going to be much better as it basically crushes the non-HP Grass electrics now since it can actually hit them with its Ground STAB; the same applies for most other Ground-types in NU

    Malamar: Kind of glad to see it leaving just because that's one less Pokemon that can randomly get sweeps on unprepared teams; also makes Sticky Web a lot safer to set up now which is kind of nice

    Xatu: I suppose this makes hazard-setting safer, though for me the real impact is not having something immune to Roar/Whirlwind to bpass to lol

    Virizion: Bulky waters get a bit better with this leaving I suppose

    Spiritomb: Going to miss this, not only was it a bulky pursuiter that also checked the Fighting types in NU, but priority + Infiltrator was a really nice combination to beat Sub users in NU. Drapion and Skuntank can fill the same role as Pursuit users, but are much more vulnerable to Sawk and Gurdurr

    Drops:
    Camerupt: Probably not actually good, just too slow and weak to everything to have a huge impact IMO; I imagine Magmortar will still be the superior Fire-type just because it can actually outspeed things

    Masquerain: Please just run Vivillon in general, or double-dance Volbeat if you're desperate to get your BPass on

    Swellow: Guts Facade from a 125 base speed sweeper is going to wreck if you can eliminate your opponent's normal resists and bulky defenders; while Zangoose is a better wallbreaker, Swellow cleans through offensive teams really effectively and U-Turn lets it pivot in and out assuming you can keep Rocks off the field. Still not sure if it's going to be good though considering it just dies so quickly between Toxic Orb, SR, and possibly Brave Bird recoil though

    Overall I think the drops are all mediocre but the Pokemon that are rising will going to shake up the metagame quite a lot to make up for it; in particular, the two levitate Electrics leaving is going to make a huge difference in how effective Ground-type attacks will be in the near future especially since Lanturn destroys the levitating competition for its slot 1v1 now (competing mostly against Rotom-F, Rotom-S, and Magneton now)
     
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