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August/September ORAS NU Potential Suspects Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Draciel, Aug 1, 2015.

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  1. topah

    topah Active Member

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    you forgot to add Archeops to your list of NU -> LU rises

    but really can we get some other way of doing tier shifts for NU? anyone could make any pokemon they wanted LU at this rate, and I'm not convinced this is accurate
     
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  2. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Actually, not anyone can just do that. You can technically blame the Archeops rise on me, because well it was a very interesting Pokemon I wanted to play around with to some moderate success in LU. But, players in all tiers have to have a certain amount of ladder points in any of the main tiers to actually contribute to the stats if I recall, and I do believe that number is to at least have 1100 ladder points. It might be more like 1050, but I'm fairly certain it's 1100. So, as long as people can do decently well, they contribute to the stats from their rated matches, does kind of help lower the chances of really bad teams contributing to the stats with even worse pokemon that might for whatever reason make the 4% cutoff.
     
  3. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    OK so anyone good enough to ladder above 1100 (1050? 1000?) with five and a half Pokemon can make any NU poke they want rise then with enough time and effort (three to four battles a day would do it probably)

    It's still really dumb that the NU tier is decided by a tier that's gotten half as many battles as NU for what feels like literally forever
     
  4. topah

    topah Active Member

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    Thats even worse. For LU there are literally only 15 people above 1100 (I don't remember how many it was before ladder reset, but it probably wasn't much more), 45 people above 1050, and 124 people above 1000. So if the cutoff is 1100 you'd be losing out on adding a huge amount. What I mean is 1100 in LU is worth a lot more than 1300 in something like OU.

    ...are you saying you single handedly made a pokemon rise? I think it's obvious that this sort of thing can and will happen more (lolCirnoyouandyourmasquerain) as LU goes on. It doesn't matter how good the usage stats are if you're only taking a sample from 15 or 45 (if its 1050) people in total. Literally there are just not enough people that battle enough to create enough numbers and variety to de-skew LU rankings.

    And what if a person 1100+ battles a person under 1100? Does only the 1100+ persons numbers get recorded? Do neither get record? Do both get recorded only if the one under 1100 wins? Potentially this means there could be a huge loss of 'decently well' battles since the majority of battles in the tier are people under 1100.

    I mean I think it's actually recorded from 1000, but I'd like to know for sure.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2015
  5. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Celes isn't the only one, me and Xdevo basically made a team with Fletchinder/Dragalge/Gligar/Heliolisk/Glalie/Escavalier (all these were below 2% usage at that point); and I even modified that to add Rotom- C and Meloetta which were both below 3%. Look at their usage stat now! It just shows how easily they can be manipulated by even one player, if he wants.

    So the Tier Leaders have decided to change the tiering period to 3 months instead of 2, which should provide more stability to the tier shifts. So yeah, no tier changes happening this month.
     
  6. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Just so it's clear, the usage will be based on September + October. August stats were borked etc. I don't know if the 3 month tier period is permanent but that'd be cool.
     
  7. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Since we have a couple free weeks now, and now that we've gotten out all of the dumb things like Registeel, I want to discuss Mega Audino.

    I'm not going to argue that Mega Audino has no counters or checks, or that it will consistently sweep teams or wallbreak. However Mega Audino is incredibly hard to stop if it gets started and there is a very limited number of threats that consistently beat Audino in practice. The bulky steels of NU have no reliable healing and will eventually be status'd and outstalled. The same is true for the common poison types- bar Vileplume. Thus, Mega Audino has little trouble outlasting most of its would be counters. Wish and its fucking absurd bulk (seriously this shit is borderline impossible to OHKO) make outlasting its checks reasonably simple, all the while wearing down things with Dazzling Gleam or with hazards. A lot of things that /should/ win against Audino will lose if they reach ~60% health, and the vast majority of them dont have healing.
    Mega Audino also has an Offensive set, which while I personally don't like it, has pretty good coverage, and hits all of the normal checks and counters for enough to help other things power through walls.
     
  8. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    By the offensive set, do you mean Calm Mind, Draining Kiss, Heal Bell and coverage/filler?

    Because I personally love that set. All it needs is a turn, maybe two of setup, and it can use its absurd bulk to tank hits, steal the HP back with Draining Kiss, and then set up moar. Bastard's deadly with minimal support (i.e. weakening or removing Poison/Steel-types). Flamethrower and Shadow Ball are the best coverage options imo. The former fries Steels, and the latter has all but perfect coverage, only missing out on Pyroar in both cases. And let's face it, Pyroar is literally setup fodder.
     
  9. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Offensive is a Modest set with coverage moves (STAB, Psychic, Fire Blast, Wish / Heal Bell / filler).
    The other two sets are the Defensive (Wish, Protect, Heal Bell, STAB) and the CM set (STAB, CM, Wish, Heal Bell or RestTalk). Defensive is a standard defensive mon, just very fat. While the CM set is the most likely to be 'broken.' Incredibly hard to stop if it gets started, and has the nice benefit of acting as a wall if you really need one.
     
  10. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Ahh, that's fair enough. Yeah, I don't get the offensive set either, then. Sure, I guess it checks stuff pretty well, due to reasonable power and good coverage, but... I'm pretty sure there are better choices for that role.
     
  11. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    My feelings on M-Audino are biased because I think its role is stupid and want it gone, but I struggle to find it broken when explaining why. If we do want to suspect it, I feel like we'd have to look at it in a different way in relation to past suspects.

    M-Audino's main sets are: CM (Defensive), CM (Offensive), and SpDef. Each fulfill different roles, CM defensive is a win condition that is incredibly annoying to take down and incredibly easy to use. It is a low risk, high reward pokemon that I'd describe as "skill-less". The purpose of it is to set up on half the tier and boost up as you pitifully wear it down with incredibly powerful attacks.

    Common answers include: Choice Specs Magneton, CM Psychics (Musharna/Uxie/Sigilyph for instance will win the CM war due to Psyshock), Bronzong (Heavy Slam required over Gyro Ball), Taunt/SD Drapion, Taunt Skuntank, Taunt+Status Mismagius, Garbodor, Taunt Weezing, Klinklang, Taunt Golbat, Taunt Qwilfish... You may be noticing a trend of Taunt pokemon.

    The problem with this is that most of these pokemon are fairly easy to wear down as you need them for other important pokemon. The Poison types are needed to answer the strong fighting types in the tier and if they get worn down too much, Audino has a field day. Something like Mold Breaker Sawk makes a great partner for Mega Audino, forming an incredibly annoying core.

    The Offensive set functions in a different manner, attempting to lure common checks/counters. This set will generally look like:
    Audino (M) @ Audinite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 160 HP / 252 SAtk / 96 Spd (I chose an arbitrary number for speed, you can choose yourself what you'd like to outspeed)
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Fire Blast/Flamethrower
    - Psychic/Grass Knot/Hyper Voice/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Healing Wish

    The last slot is pretty customizable due to Audino's amazing movepool. You can even fit in something like Wish or Heal Bell if you'd like. This set gives up the absolute ridiculous physical bulk in exchange for a decent offensive presence. 80 SpA is mediocre at best, but it still packs a punch at +1.

    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Drapion: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Dazzling Gleam vs. 16 HP / 252 SpD Skuntank: 166-196 (47.2 - 55.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery

    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Weezing: 310-366 (92.8 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Garbodor: 276-326 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Qwilfish: 374-442 (111.9 - 132.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Psychic vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Golbat: 196-232 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ SpA Mega Audino Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magneton: 256-302 (106.2 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Fire Blast vs. 136 HP / 0 SpD Klinklang: 328-386 (111.1 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Mawile: 414-488 (136.1 - 160.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Bronzong: 186-220 (55 - 65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Hyper Voice vs. 104 HP / 212+ SpD Lanturn: 156-184 (37.4 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Grass Knot (80 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Samurott: 278-328 (83.9 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 252+ SpA Mega Audino Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 440-520 (106.2 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The final set is a wall that stops wall breakers. The SpDef that this monster boasts is absolutely ridiculous, even the strongest special attacks will just bounce off.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 153-181 (37.3 - 44.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Choice Specs Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 165-195 (40.2 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-C Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 184-217 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Audino: 138-164 (33.6 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    My thoughts on the matter:
    I think M-Audino's CM (Defensive one) is stupid due to how easy it is to use, and if that's the reason we're looking at it then I WOULD support a suspect. But I struggle to find it "broken" because I have never seen it used to the best of its ability. It's one of those "broken on paper, not in practice" pokemon for me. I think it CAN be suspect worthy, it should be, but I've never had trouble with it on a well made team. The pokemon used to check it, while needed for other pokemon, are incredibly common and it's not uncommon for the builder to end up with two or more checks accidentally. For instance, having Mawile or Bronzong as a Wall and rock setter alongside Golbat as a wall and defogger on a balance build. Or having Drapion/Specs Magneton/Garbodor/Klinklang on a more offensive team. Bronzong/Weezing/Qwilfish on stall.

    tldr; Not entirely supporting a suspect just yet, but I'm on the edge and could quite easily be pushed with another one or two convincing posts. I agree with Xdevo on the defensive CM set being the biggest one to look at as I don't think the other two are as "broken" per-say, but they shouldn't be ignored. I think the offensive set has potential, it's just overshadowed by the defensive set because of how easy it is to use.
     
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  12. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    @Xdevo and @da raikage summed up my thoughts on Mega Audino quite nicely, actually. Mega Audino, the only Mega to stay in NU since it's introduction, is one of those Pokemon that have only now begun to change from a Pokemon that's simply a nuisance into a major threat that anyone needs to accommodate for when building an ORAS NU team -- kind of like Sawk, Vileplume, and Vivillon, to name a few top Pokemon. As highlighted, with a single CM, its walling power is ridiculous, mainly able to be stopped by one of two factors: Your own CM user (so Sigilyph or Uxie basically, Mushy works too for all dat bulk) or a physical poison type such as Drapion, though defensive Poisons work as well (Weezing with Clear Smog, Vileplume because it can take a Moonblast or w/e). Eelektross also has a way of breaking and pressuring the opponent at the same time through use of Acid Spray, but that shouldn't be the end-all-be-all solution for Mega Audino. We've gotten to a point in the meta where, at least on my end, 97 times out of 100 we will expect the uberly defensive CM/Wish set, which makes the offensive set Xdevo mentioned and da raikage detailed that much more effective. Let's say Vileplume is your main answer here, and Audino uses CM as you come in.

    252+ SpA Mega Audino Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Vileplume: 206-244 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

    What's the gameplan now?

    To sum it up, Mega Audino does have a few ways to stop it, but it is supremely bulky. I'm not that aggressive towards a suspect for it, but I'd be down for one should one pop up and I'd understand why it would get one.
     
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2015
  13. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I honestly feel like it's a lot like Mega Steelix was back in the day, or Aegislash in OU. I would argue that as far as being "broken" it's at a borderline phase, but due to that and other reasons it's probably an unhealthy presence in the metagame. It's just so good at what it does and can do so many things well that it almost requires more effort not to run it and depending on the team you may need to devote several answers to be able to fight it. There's also the fact that unlike literally every other mega in every other tier (except Hackmons) it has zero opportunity cost.
     
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  14. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    The cost of running 252 SAtk Modest Mega Audino is that you can break through it with powerful physical attacks because it's not defensive enough to be impenetrable to powerful shit like Zangoose or Sawk without huge defensive EV investment and nature and especially if it forgos Wishtect to run more offensive attacks because then the lack of Leftovers does make much more of a difference

    Mega Audino is the kind of Pokemon that can beat different Pokemon with different sets but can't win against everything with one: without Rest or Heal Bell it loses to most Toxic users (even with Heal Bell it can tricky because 8 PP is dwarfed by Toxic's 16), without Fire attacks most offensive Steel-types can switch in for basically free and force it out, without Wishtect it doesn't have the healing power to stall for multiple turns, and either way it's probably not beating opposing Psychic-type CMers unless it has something strange like Toxic

    TBH I think it's just less broken than Malamar, who was far harder to switch into because of the combination of Superpower (which doubled as its boosting move) and Knock Off, and who could actually just run Chestorest and three attacks without sacrificing much because it didn't need to spend turns taking hits to boost itself when it could do that and sweep at the same time
     
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  15. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Mega Audino is like one of those mons which look incredibly broken on paper in NU, but on practice it's not really /that/broken. All of it's sets (Defensive CM sweeper, best set prolly; Offensive CM; Spdef Heal bell) have viable checks which aren't uncommon at all. But why then is Mega Audino such a nuisance? the fact remains that it is just too bulky to be taken down by even super-effective attacks, and most of it's checks can be worn down by it's partner (Mold breaker Sawk makes an excellent offensive partner to Mega Audino, whereas Registeel is a prime example of defensive partner). But still it's not impossible to deal with considering the amount of stall breakers we have in the tier, it's just hard to stop once it gets going.

    If we are to suspect mega audino (I'm not saying we will but if we do) it won't be because it doesn't have enough checks (it does), or that it can't be stopped at all (that's untrue, it is definitely not unstoppable), but it will be based on the fact that how much of a 'low-risk, high reward' type of a mon it is.
     
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