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Suspect Discussion - Tornadus (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Celestial Phantom, Aug 3, 2015.

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  1. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    [​IMG]

    (Credit for this lovely Tornadus goes to one, Celestial Phantom.)

    Discuss the possibility of banning Tornadus from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Tornadus as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

    [​IMG]
     
    E.T. and NaCl like this.
  2. Cirno

    Cirno Romantic

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    Tornadus-I has very little in the way of actual counters, because it can pull off a Physical and Special set, plus being able to go mixed very successfully. It also has a very nice speed tier at 111, meaning very few Pokémon can outspeed and scare it out unless they are scarfed, such as Jolteon, especially since the tier currently revolves around a lot of slow and powerful wallbreakers. Tornadus also has access to the invaluable Knock Off and U-Turn, allowing Tornadus to cripple a Pokemon (useful for the incoming scarfers) and U-Turn out for momentum purposes and can be used very well on a mixed set. Tornadus's abilities are also useful: Defiant makes use of the popularity of defog to gain a +2 attack boost, as well as deferring Pokémon that attempt to intimidate it, as well as random drops from Psychics and Shadow Balls. Prankster is useful for Taunt, as well as for the ChestoResto Bulk Up set. Let's not forget its bulk: while it's not going to be tanking the entire tier, pure Flying-type does provide useful resistances and it is deceptively fat, and for something as strong and fast as Tornadus, it's great bulk.

    Let's take a look at its sets.

    Tornadus (M) @ (No Item)
    Trait: Defiant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Acrobatics
    - Superpower
    - Knock Off / Taunt
    - U-turn / Taunt

    Very simple to use set. Houses the Knock Off and run strategy mentioned earlier, unless you want to go for Taunt. Acrobatics is a 110 base power perfectly accurate move with no item held, which not much can switch into with resisting it. It also helps with having a switch-in into Knock Off, given that it doesn't get the boost when the opponent is not holding an item. Superpower hits stuff like Mega Steelix, Tyrantrum, Registeel, stuff that usually wouldn't mind switching in. Knock Off is great, cripples incoming Pokémon, helps it beat Metagross and Bronzong, and reduces any chances for a scarfer.

    Tornadus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Defiant / Prankster
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Hasty Nature (+Spd, -Def)
    - Hurricane
    - Heat Wave / Focus Blast / Grass Knot
    - Focus Blast / Grass Knot / Knock Off / U-turn / Taunt
    - Focus Blast / Grass Knot / U-turn / Knock Off / Taunt

    Tornadus has more Special Attack than Attack and doesn't have to lack an item when using it. It also has access to Hurricane, which is pretty dumb due to the power and the 30% confusion chance, which can really mess up things hoping to check/counter it. Heat Wave hits Mega Steelix and Bronzong, basically just normal bird coverage. The last two moves are basically whatever you want to use. Focus Blast hits Rock-types, Grass Knot can deal heavy damage to stuff, Knock Off is the usual, U-Turn is also good, and Taunt can be helpful for shutting down walls. If you really want you can Rain Dance to make Hurricane 100& accuracy and be even more dumb, as well as supporting other Pokémon like Kingdra.

    Tornadus (M) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Defiant / Prankster
    EVs: 88 HP / 252 Atk / 168 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Bulk Up
    - Rest
    - Acrobatics
    - Knock Off / Super Power

    The job of this set is very clear: use Bulk Up a few times, click Rest, activate Chesto Berry, then sweep with Acrobatics and Knock Off/Superpower. It can catch an unprepared team off guard, and even a prepared team can have difficulty with it, especially mid-late game. Prankster Rest is also useful for avoiding priority moves at low HP to recover it all, and also means that statusing Tornadus is useless. 168 Speed and Jolly allows you to outpace base 100s, though you can run 208 EVs if you want to outpace Zoroark. (If you really want, just go full speed and attack :D) This set is hard to get through on the physical side, so hard counter Jolteon is here. Heliolisk also outpaces this, unless you run full speed, then it dies to Superpower. This set is also very good now that Doublade no longer exists, which would normally require you to run Knock Off to even dent it. Porygon2 also used to give this set trouble.

    Anyway, set overview over, Tornadus is very hard to take on due to great speed, offenses, and decent bulk and typing. Jolteon acts as the one "counter", though that doesn't like switching in at all. Alomomola can lose to the special variant, and doesn't do much to the ChestoRest variant. Stunfisk is the ultimate counter, but isn't as good otherwise, and Lanturn can do well against it, though there are better bulky waters in the tier. Eelektross is a decent check to it, but is not always able to effortlessly switch in.

    Overall, Tornadus is a little dumb and can do so well against a lot of teams due to its speed and the general slow pace of LU, as well as requiring guesswork to what the set actually is. It can effectively run a Physical and Special/Mixed sit with little problem, has a hard to beat Bulk Up set, and has few ways of being dealt with. So I am in favor of a BAN.
     
    Dominique-XLR, Edna, Draciel and 2 others like this.
  3. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    I agree that Tornadus is broken and needs to go. Its ability to hit as hard as it does from either the physical or special side with its base 115 Attack and base 125 Special Attack and good move pool shown in the sets above makes it very difficult to switch into. It has a very good speed tier of base 111 as well. The only other check that I can think of that might be worth mentioning is Rotom-S, but with it being weak to SR, it probably won't be switching in very much. Tornadus has been a top threat in LU for awhile now, but with the departure of Porygon2 (able to check every set) and Doublade (able to check physical sets) Tornadus has become much better. Tornadus should be banned from ORAS LU.
     
    Scythe. likes this.
  4. Draciel

    Draciel Now Or Never

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    Tornadus has always been a top-tier threat in LU, even way before the latest tier changes happened. The sheer versatility of it's sets, along with the ability to hit incredibly hard both physically and specially makes it stupidly hard to check, and these problems have just compounded lately. It can run a variety of sets aplomb, including Mixed LO/Physical (no item)/Special (specs)/ Bulk up+ Rest/Rain Dance+ Damp rock etc. and all of them are viable, although it's the mixed LO set is obviously the most threatening set. Add to that it's amazing movepool which allows it to run any move it wants to beat it's specific checks. Cirno was kind enough to post it's basic sets so i'm not gonna delve into those again; but I think Tornadus should've left LU a long time ago even when stuff like P2 was in the tier (I can't comprehend how P2 can check mixed LO Tornadus at all, because a Knock off on the switch+ Superpower does a shit ton of damage). So yeah, the faster this monster leaves LU, the better!
     
  5. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I personally think Tornadus should remain unbanned, because everyone clearly forgot about the one LU poke that hard-counters Tornadus: Dedenne! This little bugger resists all of Torn's most common moves (except Grass Knot, which has about 2 BP against it) and can KO it with thunderbolt, gimp it with Nuzzle, or predict a switch-in and Entrainment its Plus to get the equivalent of a Specs boost, making it one of the fastest and hardest hitting Electric or Fairy types in the tier.

    Joking aside, Tornadus is obviously too much for the tier. It's rain set is annoyingly strong, as is its Acrobatics, as is its ChestoRest, as is anything this thing can do. It hits hard from both sides and outspeeds the majority of the unboosted meta, all while having deceptively solid bulk as well. It even has a few tricks to abuse Prankster, although on most sets Defiant is simply too good to pass up. In summary, I vote BAN.
     
  6. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    252 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 66-78 (17.6 - 20.8%) -- possible 5HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Tornadus Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Porygon2: 242-286 (64.7 - 76.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    There is just the one answer to some LO Mixed Tornadus @Draciel . Though I think it's literally the only P2 set that can, since as you can it needs the high rolls with a hazard up. No hazards and still at full HP, it'll just recover on the Superpower turn, and well that's forcing Tornadus out, it can also Thunder Wave that turn, so give and take I guess. If it's a P2 carrying Ice Beam, it's 2hkoing, but combine with Thunder Wave, yeah the fear is there.

    Anyway, if I can give some thoughts on Tornadus. BU Tornadus literally has Rock types and and Electric types for it, and even then it can work it's way around those given some luck. Priority Bulk Up is great for starting a tank most every physical threat, and given Rest Talk there's priority there too to stay healthy and have a chance to attack. Acrobatics when Chesto is used will gets that double power, and it means that Tornadus will be doing a lot more damage. Also, the set cirno posted can be altered a fair bit too, I've been running 248 HP / 252 Sp.Def / 8 Speed+ (Jolly), just to make it BULKY, and tank some extra Special hits namely I will be able to live Jolteon LO Thunderbolt, same for Heliolisk. There is still the potential to be KO'd by them, but I actually have a stronger shot to live at full HP, and Priority Acrobatics can screw both over if I manage say a +2, just gotta get a lucky roll I guess. Speed + Nature literally is for me beating Nidoqueen as well as neutral and +nature base 80s. I can see Banded Braviary and Kabutops being slightly harder for Tornadus having to rely on natural bulk, so I just wanted to make sure I could at least outspeed those. That aside, it pretty much can set up on everything in the tier, and well it takes pretty much the strong rock types to check this thing as it tries to set up (Tyrantrum and Rhyperior), or having Heliolisk and Jolteon and it getting a bad Sleep Talk roll (or them running specs). Magneton is a awesome one to this set. Problem though is that it has one other set that mirrors it pretty well being the BU Acro no item (or chesto rest with no sleep talk) set that runs Superpower and none of these outside Rhyperior would want to switch in to it.

    Given, Tornadus can do so much more that's already listed. With Porygon 2 out of the tier, the special set gets finitely better, as P2's bulk would hinder the use of the special set unless you removed the eviolite, and there is still some bulky special defenders, but it doesn't have to worry about cores centered on P2 which was the easiest Pokemon to splash on any team.

    Tornadus can be a rain support or a rain sweeper, heck it's both at the same time. Getting priority Rain Dance is neat, with Hurricane becoming 100% accuracy, getting STAB on it, and having a 30% chance for confusion. Doublade isn't here so doesn't mind Heat Wave being weakened since it still has Focus Miss to try and take down all the other common steel types. It partners pretty well with a Pokemon like Uxie who can set up Rain Dance with Damp Rock (while it can also set up SR if needed), and then memento giving Tornadus a free switch in, or be a slow U-Turn user for it against moderately faster threats, that way it can get in relatively safely some of the time. It's got the offenses with one of the fastest speeds in the tier, and has pretty much an answer to almost every threat to it on mostly one given set, coupled with how it's multiple sets can be highly problematic and not have many sure fire answers, it's probably overstayed it's welcome.
     
    Edna likes this.
  7. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    This should of been done last night, but any Tornadus will be banned from the ORAS LU tier. A combination of 115 / 125 / 111 offenses is truly a an offensive monster in the tier. There is very little to outspeed it naturally, and being capable of running both Physical and Special as well as Mixed sets leaves Tornadus a bag of mixed unpredictability. It has the capability to run a counter move for pretty much any threat that would be used to check it, most notably Grass Knot will take down practically any rock Pokemon that would be used as a check, and access to Focus Blast/Heat Wave allows it to bypass the Steel types that would commonly check it. Given that it has Prankster for an ability means that you can get Rain up for a Rain team before you die guaranteed, as well you can support yourself with Prankster set up strategies. Some of these require a little luck against Rock and Electric checks, but against the rest of the tier, they end up being set up bait for the Bulk Up set. Something that wasn't mentioned above is that Defog users have to be entirely weary of trying to pull off the move as it's second ability is Defiant giving it an automatic +2 attack stat, and with the 115 base Attack it has and combining that a no Item Acrobatics has 110 base power, it becomes an automatic sweeper with very little drawback that is sure to sweep most every Pokemon in the tier. Doesn't help that we lost one strong check to it in Porygon2 and somewhat in Vaporeon, and none of the drops actually can help deter it outside like Cloyster with Ice Shard lol. It's just entirely offensive against everything, and on hand there is a small number of Pokemon that can outspeed and check it, though none of them have a switch in ability to it outside possibly Jolteon on it's flying/set up moves. It's just a lot for teams to handle, and very little drawback on being an offensive powerhouse gives teams a lot of leeway in playing.
     
    E.T., NaCl and Joeypals!! like this.
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