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Suspect Discussion: Mew (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by NananaBatman, Aug 3, 2015.

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  1. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Credit goes to ThatMushroom for the incredible drawing

    Discuss the possibility of Mew being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Mew' impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on wether Mew should be banned (or not) from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Mew in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
  2. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    lel mews been here like a day and its already gettin suspected with no discussion about it bein broken, looks like some bias shit to me. id like to know what attributes mew has that makes it so absurdly broken that its not even given two days of play and trumps other potential suspects that ppl have been mentioning like gatr or victini.

    mews not broken lol, 99% of the time its defog. the argument of "it can run sd" etc is garbage because all those sets are done better by different mons. no one is suggesting celebi is broken because it can run np, cm, sd, spdef, ebelt, etc. because most of those sets are done better by other mons.
    mew is a good defogger but thats essentially all it is. defog/rocks, roost, stab and will-o/heal bell. i mean..this is more broken than gatr?
    mew gives so many mons free switchins. hydreigon, victini, entei, rotom-h, chandy, alakazam, mega amphy, raikou etc.

    mew isnt even the best hazard remover rn, i wouldnt say theres a best but imo mandi is just a lot better.
    mandi has stab foul play shitting on gatrs and mences that feel like boosting up, doesnt have crushing 4mss like mew (foul play, taunt, defog, roost is all u need), better bulk, isnt weak to uturn so it can stop a ton of other shit like mega bee, can freely run taunt stopping lead forre, agg, hippo, etc where mew has to really lose out if it wants to run taunt, and really not much can freely switch into mandi and threaten it other than fighting types.
    whats mews niche? non rocks weak defogger that can check nidoking and can run status or heal bell, holy shit suspect it now.

    it seems like with how quickly the suspect was brought up youre implying that mew is like the fucking s tier makes everything else look like shit support mon thats gnna be spammed on every team. i mean, mew cant even replace mandi on my main team cuz that team is hydreigon and mega bee weak. they both have niches and offense is still gnna opt for shit like forre or empoleon. stallbreaker mew is a useless team slot lol, like i said most of its sets are done better by other mons, and we have a lot of stallbreakers in this tier that arent as passive. shit like reun, cune, sub sd gatr just 6-0 most stall by themselves and they can actually be useful vs other team archetypes.

    so yea, mew doesnt erase other hazard control mons from existance, just go back to the xy usage stats when mew was around, shit like forre, cruel, and empol were still extremely high usage. most of mews sets are done better by other mons including defog depending on team structure. it gives a sizable amount of mons free switchins and doesnt even counter many mons. all i can think of rn is like machamp (needs physdef) or like nidoking (needs spdef). its just a good defogger, thats all it is so no ban imo.
     
  3. Kody

    Kody :]

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    Mew is a pokemon that can run many different sets but the most common and arguably the most effective is the defensive Defog set. The point of this set is to be a defensive support, however, a large part of the most used UU mons can deal serious damage to Mew while Mew can do nothing in return.

    Here are a couple of calcs vs Krookodile, Victini, and Feraligatr, 3 of the top tier mons in UU.

    252+ Atk Black Glasses Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Mew: 354-416 (87.6 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

    252+ Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Mew: 363-427 (89.8 - 105.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Feraligatr Crunch vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Mew: 502-593 (124.2 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The idea that Taunt Mew is able to singlehandedly stop stall has also been mentioned. How would the stallbreaker set differ in any way from the mons that we currently have such as Crobat, Suicune, Reuniclus and Snorlax that can do the job of beating stall the exact same if not better?
    Mew is very versatile, however, it suffers from 4MS. Picking just 4 moves to specialize for one set leaves it open to being threatened by something else common. If Mew is banned because somebody can't handle one of its sets then that's stupid. The bigger problems to the tier such as Mence and Suicune are being looked right over.

    I'll add more calcs and stuff later but I have to leave for dinner shortly.
     
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  4. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    You realize mew only needs 192 speed to outpace and burn adamant Krookodile? Then it can just sit there and stall it out of burn damage.

    252+ Atk Choice Band burned Krookodile Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 62+ Def Mew: 208-246 (51.4 - 60.8%) -- 92.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    252+ Atk Choice Band burned Krookodile Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 62+ Def Mew: 139-165 (34.4 - 40.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    You're not using mew to directly counter feraligatr and it has the same problem when it tries to directly take it on. Taunt to stop the SD, burn it then sit back and do what mew does. Or just switch out to a teammate that can handle a taunted Feraligatr. Or just burn it first since it's even slower than Krookodile.

    One of the main reasons why it's so threatening to stall in the first place is because of its speed, taunt, BULK (the amount of which pokemon like Crobat lack) and Will o wisp which stops most physical attackers from breaking it barring out predicting or just having a clear cut type advantage. And even then they can fail to kill. I don't see why every defensive/stall breaker mew needs defog, it can function with other pokemon removing hazards in place of it.

    A broken pokemon doesn't just sweep any team 6-0, it has teammates to work off of as well as its own abilities. Same with the Victini calc, that's like calcing Victini vs Mega Heracross.

    This isn't even getting into offensive sets which I'm sure other people will comment on as the days go by. Also Salamence had a suspect. Not enough of a majority thought it was truly broken so it wasn't banned. And obviously few people think suicune is broken, along with the fact that mentions of them should stay in the potential suspect thread. Keep this about Mew and what other pokemon do to it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015
  5. Kody

    Kody :]

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    That is assuming that it runs Wil-o-wisp. Which means that it has to sacrifice a valuable slot that could be used for something else like a STAB or Taunt. If you were to run that much speed on Mew that also means that you're giving up a lot of bulk to outspeed one thing. Using the set you've given Mew can't even take 2 unboosted Outrages from Mence while Mew fails to do anything in return but either die or let Mence set up.

    252 Atk Salamence Outrage vs. 252 HP / 62+ Def Mew: 189-223 (46.7 - 55.1%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

    Mew has an answer to almost everything but the problem is that it can't do that on every set. WIth only 4 moves to choose from it has a very specific niche to fill on the team and still gets beat by something else common.
     
  6. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Or you can take that attack and burn it, allowing you to roost while it deals 28% max in return after the burn. Or burn it and switch into anything that can take a +1 burned Salamence on. Why would you not run Will o Wisp? Taunt/WoW/Roost/Attacking move should be the standard Mew stall breaker set. You don't defog with stall breaker Mew and Defog is one of its worst sets.

    This is also ignoring how insane any offensive Mew set actually is.
     
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  7. Accelgor

    Accelgor Active Member

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    -Accelgor-
    I'll brb I'm going to the store to buy as much popcorn as I can so I can enjoy this to the fullest extent.

    Real talk though.

    I don't believe Mew should be banned simply because of the argument that it can run a multitude of sets. Thankfully we have answers to all of the offensive variants, and frankly one can force pressure upon defensive sets. Also remember that since Mew's learnset is massive, and this causes it to suffer from 4MSS. It simply can't prepare for everything in all honesty, and I don't believe it's overcentralizing at all.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015
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  8. Kody

    Kody :]

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    The standard offensive Mence is Lum DD so burn won't matter.


    Mew's offensive ability is far from overwhelming and is actually quite lackluster. I'll use Blastoise as an example since it's fairly common in the tier. Even if Mew were to get up to +2 with a NP it can't even do more than 70% to offensive Blastoise whereas Blastoise OHKOs in return with Dark Pulse.

    +2 252 SpA Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 217-256 (59.9 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    The SD set fairs even worse, hardly doing 50% to Mega Blastoise.

    +2 252 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 186-220 (51.3 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    On the topic of the SD set the common moveset is SD, Sucker, Drain and Zen headbutt. It has good coverage with the set but the damage is weak. It only has a 6% chance to take out a 0/0 Victini with a +2 Sucker Punch whereas Victini can OHKO/Trick quite easily in return.

    +2 252 Atk Mew Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 292-344 (85.6 - 100.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

    Here is a calc vs Fatmence, which is a common switchin to physical attackers in UU right now. Assuming SD on the switchin and then getting intimidated Mew does a third to Mence and gets Dragon Tailed out + Rocky Helmet damage.

    +1 252 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 136-162 (34.6 - 41.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    So I don't really see how the offensive capabilities of Mew are anything to be worried about.
     
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  9. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure what's the most garbage as an argument. "99% of the time its defog and that's all it can do" or "mew is extremely versatile and is capable of running a huge variety of sets, of which defog may (or may not) be the best/most common". If I had to pick, I'd go with the former.
    Also "giving many mons free switchins" is a given on a defogger, this should be fairly obvious. Last time I checked, gligar wasn't scaring half the tier away.

    I don't know why you're comparing mew to mandi but theres some stuff that is just wrong here : mandi doesn't stop mega bee; it gets u-turned on. Mew has will-o shitting on gatrs and mences that feel like boosting up, too. "Crushing 4mss" on a pokemon with so many options is also a given, I'm not sure what you're trying to prove here.

    The "mew can't even replace mandi on my main team" argument is completely irrelevant. If Rayquaza doesn't fit on my team, does that mean we should unban it? Also stallbreaker mew is not a useless team slot. It is ridiculously hard for stall to deal with, the best it can do being throwing fairly weak attacks at it while it gets will-o'd/tossed to death. Reuniclus is hard for stall to handle, but there's a reason it is being suspected right now. I don't see how suicune 6-0s stall (other than poorly built stall teams), and sub sd gatr, while difficult to handle, can be beaten by stuff like tangrowth/ches (or fat waters if you choose to run ice punch). Also try to discuss Mew, and not other "potentially broken" mons in this thread.

    This pretty much goes back to the "mew only defogs" argument, which is not true at all.

    This has been answered already, but I want to add a minor nitpick ; you're using adamant krook and tini in those calcs. I'm not saying these sets are "utter trash", but they are far less common and should almost never be used ; both should use jolly. Tini needs it for stuff like hydreigon, darmanitan, krookodile and even roserade, whereas krook cannot afford to be outsped by rose, chandy, entei and nidoking. Try using sets that are actually common in the metagame when you post calcs kplsthx.

    It looks like you (and other posters) are trying to spin Mew's huge movepool and access to many options into a weakness because "something will always beat it". Ofc it suffers from 4MSS when it has so many options.
    As for the other potentially broken mons, I haven't seen you post in potential suspects discussions/Salamence suspect. If you believe these to be broken, you are encouraged to post about it, but try to stay on topic here.

    If you are using this mew spread to beat offensive Salamence, chances are you are doing it wrong.


    You forgot to give your mew a Life Orb in these calcs.

    +1 252 Atk Life Orb Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 236+ Def Salamence: 179-212 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 43.4% chance to 2HKO (I used the correct mence set, max/max is not a thing). If you add rocks, stuff can get pretty messy. Phazing means you risk dying depending on what is brought in, whereas attacking can give mew even more set up opportunity.

    +2 252 SpA Life Orb Mew Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blastoise: 282-333 (77.9 - 91.9%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock. Its lookin grim if toise switches into rocks and has a tiny amount of prior damage. Also mew could be running giga drain/tbolt (I'm probably going to get jumped on for saying this because I'm using the best moves possible, but giga drain/tbolt are viable options on NP Mew).

    Not gonna bother posting the victini calc with a Life Orb, but yeah its a safe kill.

    So yeah, on the topic of mew's offensive abilities being bad ; mew is not a wallbreaker capable of tearing through anything and everything. However, it's gigantic movepool (both on the physical and special sides) allows it to beat any pokemon in the tier. This can be some incredibly valuable support on an offensive team. I don't think the anti-ban side is saying that offensive Mew is overwhelming and should be enslaved asap, but people on the pro-ban side completely disregarding it are fooling themselves.

    Atleast this thread is somewhat active, keep it up guys :]
     
  10. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    u didnt give reasons why those arguments are garbage, u just called them garbage, 9/9 m9.
    also i didnt imply that mandi scares half the tier but mew gives free switchins to some of the tiers strongest powerhouses which i listed whereas for mandi its essentially just fighting types for the most part.

    the point behind comparing the two is to say that mew doesnt outclass other hazard removers to point where the others arent even worth running, each hazard remover has its own niche and i find mandis niche to be stronger.
    mega bee gets ohkoed by foul play and uturn only does around 33%, less if youre running lefties over helmet. mences commonly run lum and mew cant switch in as mence gets +1. same with gatr, mews gnna get outsped and ohkoed by +2 crunch whereas mandi can switch in as either boosts up and ohko or nearly ohko both of them. again, the point of comparing the two was to prove that mew doesnt overwhelmingly outclass other hazard removers.
    what im trying to prove with the 4mss is support mew cant always run will-o like you guys keep mentioning. rocks, defog, roost, stab/coverage move, will-o, taunt, heal bell. support mew is always some combination of those 7 so stop assuming mew is gnna run will-o on all support sets.


    again, with the main team thing it was another example of how each hazard remover has its own niche and how mew isnt the fucking splashable s tier plugs every hole in my team aids fairy you make it out to be.
    stallbreaker mew is a useless team slot. it literally only does well vs stall so why wouldnt you choose from the plethora of other stall smashers if youre dedicating a stallbreaker slot on ur team like np celebi or sub sd gatr that can actually carry their own weight vs other team types? stall has as much trouble with stallbreaker mew as they do with stallbreaker crobat. taunt/roost/bb/superfang decimates stall.
    stall has options to beat stallbreaker mew anyway. mega blast (dark pulse decimates), espeon/xatu, scald burn+knock off, reun, pp stalling with regen cores, etc. that set is just another good stallbreaker but unlike shit like np celebi it does poorly vs other team types.

    mew is almost always defogging. all its offensive sets are done better by other offensive mons, and its stallbreaker set is extremely passive and easily replacable on teams for less passive stallbreakers like np celebi. its not broken.
     
  11. Kody

    Kody :]

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    You cannot assume that phasing Mew with Mence will bring it into something that will leave Mence in a bad situation. The reason for saying Mence is because it's a common Defensive wall and phasing out in most scenarios is the best since it most likely avoids a 2HKO and can Roost afterward while Mew takes LO + Rocky Helmet damage.

    I don't include LO because Colbur Mew was the most common on offensive sets in XY before it was brought up by usage.

    Also, we don't disregard the ability of Mew's offense but in a tier that is dominated mostly by HO monsters the damage output is rather thin.


    You're making it seem as if Mew is the end all be all of teams in UU. It can't do everything at once like it's being made out to be. There are options, yes, but it's not as if it can do everything that a team needs flawlessly.
     
  12. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Funny. I thought it was obvious, but it clearly wasn't ; allow me to explain. Your argument relies on usage (you claim that almost every single mew runs defog). Usage is a rather poor argument to gauge a pokemon's brokenness. I'll give you a fairly extreme exemple so you can understand why.

    Imagine a ladder in which most players were scrubs/new players played (this isn't too far from the truth). Now imagine crawdaunt being still allowed in our metagame, but since most players are bad, they'd be using this set:
    Crawdaunt (F) @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Hyper Cutter
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 SDef / 4 Spd
    Naive Nature (+Spd, -SDef)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Hail
    - Attract
    - Iron Defense
    Now Imagine if some good players were to come around and start using some actual good sets (such as SD LO). Even if 99% of the playerbase were to use some questionnable sets, chances some of the (very few) good players would find Crawdaunt to be broken. If a suspect were to happen, do you think Crawdaunt should stay in the tier because almost every1 used a poor set? I'll let you answer on your own.

    My argument is based on Mew's versatility. It has a very big movepool (3rd biggest!!) and some well rounded stats: none of them are spectacular, but none of them are bad. These qualities allow it to fulfill a good amount of roles, and not "only defog", which is what your argument is.

    However, since these are opinions, we'll probably never know who is right, but I hope you now understand why I questionned the validity of "mew only runs defog".

    Ok, mandi is better at handling physical threats thanks to STAB foul play and overall better typing for a physical wall, I'll give you that. Mandi does let some threats in (like nidoqueen) that typical defog mew can defeat, so they're vastly different in their niches as defoggers.
    I did not assume that mew always runs will-o, but some very popular sets use it. If it's not running will-o and any physical bulk, then it will lose to boosting physical attackers. Mew does not outclass all other defoggers in every single of their niche, but it does have a hell of a lot going for it.

    Spreading burns is not "doing poorly vs other team types", just saying. sub sd gatr is totally beatable by stall and so is np celebi (if you think mew has common weaknesses/is easy to scare out, I suggest you take a look at celebi's weaknesses). I'll give you that crobat is problematic, but its longevity is nowhere near as good as Mew's. Reuniclus gets taunted and tossed to death. You are vastly underestimating stallbreaker Mew. Also this is about mew, not celebi/gatr/crobat.

    Mew always being defog is a bad argument.
    Its offensive sets are good and are not "done better by others" as they are unique because mew has a ton of options. Nothing in the tier gets to pick what it beats as much as mew does when it comes to offensive sets
    Stop comparing mew to NP celebi.
     
  13. Kody

    Kody :]

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    So since it can run multiple sets, none overwhelmingly well it deserves to be banned? It has a good stallbreaker set but the rest are mediocre.
     
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  14. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    o_k

    I'm not saying all of its sets are stupidly overwhelming. However, a lot of them must be taken into account when teambuilding as they have very good potential.
    Having such ridiculous versatility is 1 of the things Mew has going for it. You can refuse to acknowledge it if you want (it's your opinion after all), but it's been brought up for a reason.
     
  15. Kody

    Kody :]

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    Those are on the same set?

    So when teambuilding I should be more worried about a mon that doesn't do half the jobs mentioned before nearly as well as other mons? (Crobat, Celebi, etc have been mentioned)
     
  16. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    when i said 99% of mews are defog my intention wasnt to make it a usage based argument, i shouldve worded it differently. what i meant is, as ive explained numerous times, mews only set that isnt severely outclassed (and the only one worth running because it isnt severely outclassed) is defog which is why 99% of mews are defog mews.
    thats a good crawdaunt set the chandy counter ez

    sigh again with this. my argument is that all of mews sets aside from defog are all either garbage or outclassed. your fucking argument is that because it can run like 4 other mediocre sets that are outclassed it means its banworthy. why dont you wanna ban celebi then? it can run nasty plot, swords dance, calm mind, spdef, expert belt, nastypass. the versatility waowuu!!

    -as i said like 4 times already, stallbreaker mew is outclassed by other stallbreakers that arent as one dimensional as mew and can deal with other playstyles and arent dead weight vs anything other than stall like np celebi. also, crobat does basically the same thing with taunt bb super fang roost, it can run defog and nasty plot and banded too the versatility waowuu!! ban it

    -swords dance is also outclassed. mew needs lum or its gnna get burned by the plethora of fat waters around. without life orb its weak af and base 100 is slow for a sweeper. infernape is faster, stronger, and has stab priority. lucario is stronger, can run life orb because that actually ensures ohkoes at +2, and has base 80 priority. toxicroak is stronger, has good priority, water absorb niche is strong for cune. azelf hits an important speed tier and stronger. mews sd set is so painfully fucking average.

    -the nasty plot set is nothing special. its outclassed by shit like azelf (better speed+more pwr) and celebi (free set up on waters, smashes cune etc). again, pretty average.

    are you seeing a trend here. all these sets other than defog are outclassed.

    pretty sure i addressed all ur points here, if i missed one then let me know. having a lot of sets as azelf and celebi do doesnt make mew or those two broken when those sets are all fucking outclassed. i hope i got my point across about how the only mew set worth running is defog because the others are all outclassed and painfully average.

    suspect chesnaught next that shit has like 10 sets. belly drum, bulk up, spikes, specs, someone stop this savage.
     
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  17. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    I think that Mew's broken given a few facets of it as a pokemon overall: versatility, niche/effectiveness, and effect on the metagame. I'll go through each of these respectively so I can outline why I believe it is banworthy.

    In regards to versatility, Mew can run quite a few sets with a plethora of viable moves. The most effective and common set has to be the stallbreaker/support variant - personally, I like using Taunt + Will O Wisp + Softboiled + Knock Off. While it does have a niche as a defogger and is often seen as one, the Defog variant is lackluster in comparison to the full stallbreaker variant I listed above, but it does fit onto a few other teams. With that said, what "fits on" more isn't necessarily indicative of brokenness as you must look at a pokemon's best attributes and gauge if they're too much for a tier or not, not their worst (for example, obviously scarf victini is easy to counter, but if you look at the most threatening variants - band or mixed - then you can see why it's a top threat in the tier. the same line of logic applies to the defog set being viable, but mediocre in terms of effectiveness in comparison to a full stallbreaker variant). Getting back on track, it can also run a Nasty Plot variant (which, btw, isn't outclassed by Celebi at all as they both have the same stat line while Mew has a much better movepool and Celebi's only merit over Mew is the grass secondary typing, which can even backfire sometimes), a Swords Dance variant (this thing does very well against offense, catches many people by surprise, and can easily eliminate a lot of normal switch-ins to Mew), and a Baton Pass variant (straightforward team supporter to set up for a breaker to clean or something along these lines). Overall, this versatility can be diminished to nothing as it is obvious what variant is being used on some teams - specifically, bulkier teams only appreciating the support or stallbreaker variant - but other times it can set up for Mew dominating the opponent or at very least getting a free turn or two and/or a free kill. Given this, Mew is incredibly hard to switch-into (the Stallbreaker set alone is annoying given that Knock off cripples almost everything that isn't a mega and Will-O-Wisp cripples non-fire types, especially those who are physical attackers - the sweeping variants also can make counterplay a struggle, of course).

    In regards to niche/effectiveness and effect on the metagame, the main issue with Mew is the stallbreaker set...being too good at breaking stall. There are plenty of means of counterplay against a CroCune or CM Reuniclus on stall, they're just hard to find and include in a team. For Mew, that list of counterplay options is much smaller and less practical to the extent that it makes things unplayable, which is a big no-no for a pokemon if you wish to attain a balanced metagame. To add onto this, both of the sweeping variants have the niche of being a 'surprise' sweeper (think it's a different set, not sure if np or sd, etc...mew can run pretty much everything on balance or offense so yea) that has the ability to get a lot of free turns to set-up and then abuse an unmatched movepool to damage the opponent. This is pretty straightforward because we all should know what Mew does and how well it does it, but it appears that some of you guys are forgetting or underestimating Mew's presence in this tier as a force against not only a couple pokemon or cores, but a whole archetype (stall) and the fact that so few things appreciate switching into Knock and/or Wisp.

    Mew's a bit too much for UU right now as the tier doesn't have the tools to work around it, specifically on bulky teams. While Mew may not be broken in the sense of an overpowering poke (such as Weavile or Mamoswine, for example) or the amazing sweeping capabilities of some win conditions (such as Reuniclus currently or Zygarde back in XY), it has the aforementioned versatility and effectiveness that impacts the metagame poorly and makes Mew an unhealthy, banworthy presence in the tier.

    -------
    Hold up. How is NP or SD or stallbreaker Mew outclassed or garbage? NP Mew is not only unpredictable, but it's the best NP Psychic in the tier with respectable bulk given that it has a more potent movepool than Celebi and the grass typing isn't exactly helping Celebi given the current metagame. The SD set is quite surprising and does a number to offense while I see 0 competition for this spot. The stallbreaker set is amazing - the best set imo and idk why it's getting so little mention - as it decimates an entire archetype and makes counterplay or switching into it a struggle. I can go on and on with how your claims for non-defog support variants being outclass are incorrect, but I think this is sufficient. Oh and don't try being obnoxious and sarcastic...that doesn't help your argument whatsoever and it violates forum rules.

    Stallbreaker Mew is not outclassed at all. For one, Crobat is much frailer and it is weak to stealth rock with a poor defensive typing - bar the fighting resist - and it also lacks will o wisp + knock off...stallbreakers like crocune and cm reuniclus have various methods of counterplay that can fit onto stall (every stall should have some way to stop bulky anti-stall win conditions, else they're poor stall teams). Mew isn't SR weak, Mew isn't frail, Mew isn't letting many things in free with Wisp+Knock, Mew isn't too slow, and Mew isn't being stopped in its tracks by anything on stall teams unlike bulky sweepers - Mew is not outclassed with the stallbreaker variant.

    Mew is naturally bulky and it is not expected to be setting up a Swords Dance, so it gets a lot of free turns while it can then abuse Psy+Dark+fighting coverage with the dark even being priority sucker punch, so I don't see how it's obsoleted in general, but to go into your claims...Lucario is a frail poke with only a couple sets worth running and it is walled by a lot of things right now while Infernape is a glass cannon that isn't even used to SD, but to wallbreak, so I don't get this comparison. Toxicroak I haven't used or seen, but to my understanding it's a quite frail and it doesn't have much speed to compensate while non-STAB sucker needs +2 to be strong and even then it's not killing non-super effective offensive mons..so it's not too solid or 100% better than Mew, either.

    PS: you go from calling it totally obsoleted to painfully average..make up your mind :x

    You conveniently forget to mention that Azelf is much frailer while Celebi has a lot of drawbacks with movepool and typing, too, so I advise you actually make a proper, well-rounded, and fair argument before posting one-sided, lackluster arguments to bolster your opinion without considering the full story in the future - NP mew is not outclassed at all.

    The trend I see is your constant underestimation of Mew in conjunction with your convenient disregard for any contradiction to your argument. I don't mean to question your posting or forum presence, but please consider the situation fully before arguing in the future as many of your claims are one-sided and do not consider the full potential of Mew while they overestimate the alternatives in order to make Mew seem less appealing, viable, and banworthy.
    -------
     
  18. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    to your stallbreaker point, you didnt really say why you think its not outclassed by other stallbreakers like crobat or np celebi, im assumin u do later somewhere in this wall.

    to the nasty plot point, i do think its outclassed by celebi because for one, giga drain is really good for longevity and it gives the added bonus of bein able to rip thru shit like crocune, mega blast etc. mega blast eats up a +2 psyshock and nearly ohkoes mew with dark pulse for example. i think the grass typing is more of a positive than a negative because it allows celebi to not get ravaged by shit like rotom-c, mega scep, raikou, etc mid sweep. and most of the shit that can prey on celebis weaknesses ohko mew any like lo/bandtini, chandy, heracross, etc. the only advantage id say mew has over celebi is access to aura sphere which lets it hit both hydreigon and steels but then again, scarf hydreigon nearly ohkoes mew with dark pulse anyway.
    azelf, while frailer, makes up for it with its really good speed tier outspeeding some important stuff that mew cant like ape, cobalion, doesnt have to worry bout speed ties with tini, rachi, etc. and it ohkoes all of them at +2. so yea i dont really see how mew outclasses these two if thats what youre suggesting, i can see maybe being on the same level as these two (i still think they have pretty significant advantages over mew tho), but it certainly doesnt outclass them imo.

    to the sd point, i dont see how it does well vs offense. base 100 speed and forced to run lum so its significantly weaker without life orb, wtf is it gnna set up on? with aids voltswitch+bee offense running around and all offense having bare minimum 2 users of volt switch/uturn, i dont see how this thing would set up. not only that but scarf hydreigon, scarftini, raikou, bee, mega aero, mega blast (lives +2 psyshock and nearly ohkoes with dpulse), all being extremely common on ho and everything bar blast outspeeding it, i dont see how it could put in much work vs offense.

    baton pass mew is outclassed by celebi imo largely because of natural cure letting it pass longer and its typing defensively is imo superior in this tier filled with fat waters.

    yes the stallbreaker set is annoying but so is sb bat or standard jelli, they all accomplish the same thing. i wouldnt say knock off is like a major advantage over stuff like bat because superfang+taunt+bb is gnna wear down opposing stall even faster rather than sitting there clickin knock off to do 5% to a mega agg.

    addressed why np is outclassed in the previous paragraph and like sd mew, i dont see it doing anything vs offense. youre giving surprise factor way too much credit. to the stallbreaker set decimating stall, can you tell me what stall has for stallbreaker bat? i mean like actual answers stall has, not "mews bulkier" or "its not weak to rocks" which are pretty vague because bat has enough bulk to shit on all stall for the most part and taunt shuts down almost all hazard stackers for stall. bb super fang roost taunt 6-0es stall. also im not usually that cunty or maybe i am idk, batman and i trash each other constantly on the server so thats how we communicate, u dont need to defend him.


    ur crobat comparison to mew is very vague, u dont really offer a mon that just shuts down crobat that is commonly seen on stall, wheras mew does have an answer or two. mega blast for one is pretty potent vs mew and isnt that much of a rarity on stall and stuff like encore whims are completely usable on stall. lock mew in on knock off or roost or whatever and toxic it. stall has ways to deal with stallbreaker mew, cant really say the same for bat although mega blast does reasonably well vs it. whims gets smashed tho.


    again it seems like ur relying on surprise factor too much. sd mews about as hard to wall as sd celebi, meaning not that hard. if ur runnin lo ur succeptible to scald burns from fat waters completely neutralizing you because unlike celebi you dont have natural cure, and if ur runnin lum ur significantly weaker, doin laughable damage to the tiers best phys walls.
    +2 252 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 141-166 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- 18.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 Atk Mew Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 105-124 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +2 252 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Tangrowth: 135-159 (33.4 - 39.4%) -- 13.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    lel +2 252 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 104+ Def Mew: 89-105 (22 - 25.9%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 252 Atk Mew Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Arcanine: 136-162 (35.5 - 42.2%) -- 90.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    so yea, sd is pretty buns imo.
    also i never really called it obsolete, just said severely outclassed.

    --
    i think i covered all ur points. you put waay too much emphasis on surprise factor imo. surprise factor isnt specific to mew and the surprises it has in stored are extremely underwhelming and really stupid easy to deal with. youre kinda on the same page as batman where the reason you want to ban it is cuz its versatile and think stallbreakers too good, but like i said and have shown, its others sets are really just average, except for sd i think thats pretty awful. so yea its not broken.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
  19. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Access to Aura Sphere and not as many weaknesses(you still can get hit by Ice Beam off of shit like Suicune, don't pretend dual attacking suicune is non existant) are exactly why Mew is much stronger than Celebi. I don't see how you can brush off hitting steels and dark types for at least neutral damage 100% of the time, without worrying about Hydreigon levitating to dodge Earth Power or Mega Aero picking you off with Aerial Ace from pretty substantial HP. Should do about 82% minimum with Aerial Ace to Celebi. Mew also isn't confined to as finite a move set as Celebi, and has every move Azelf does.

    Moreover, I honestly think both ban AND anti ban sides are missing out or not exactly hitting on exactly why Mew's move set is so important and what makes it so insane. It really isn't unpredictability; if you're running SD Mew there are certain pokemon that compliment it, and Stall breaker is going to have a faster team accompanying it to make up for getting rid of the walls that would stop them otherwise. You can kind of see it on the team preview, but of course it's never 100% certain. It's the simple fact that Mew can be tailor made to fit any team. No it can't use 90% of its move pool but it doesn't have to because it has all the tools it needs in that 10% to demolish anything your team needs it to, short of 6 opposing Scarf Dark, Bug or Ghost types. A well played offensive Mew will get a kill a match, because of its inherent bulk, lack of weaknesses(most knock offs are slower or can't switch in, a lot of actual dark/ghost types rely on scarf to out speed), and ability to run any offensive move it needs to on the team it is on, not necessarily what it can run. It also doesn't need to boost and attempt sweeping right out the gate, it has enough power to poke small holes for your other mons to capitalize and then come back in to finish its job.

    Specifically, why Mew is so much stronger than Celebi though? For starters you can't be clipped by random Ice Beams. Sub Suicune and Blastoise specifically can fire them off much more liberally when they see an offensive Celebi rather than Mew. Mew also survives U-Turn from several mons that Celebi hasn't a chance in hell to live through. Aura Sphere > Earth Power because of the aforementioned Hydreigon honestly, that and hitting things like Umbreon and Snorlax super effectively just kill it faster and turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs. Less toxic damage and such, since status still hurts Celebi just the same while it's in. It has the choice of either Psyshock or Psychic which is extremely relevant and goes back into what moves Mew "needs" to fit perfectly into your team, and really not being weak to Fire, Ice and Flying makes you less of a target to be picked off by Entei, Mega Aerodactyl, U-Turn anything with high Attack, Crobat, the list goes on. Grass typing is a huge burden for Celebi since a lot of pokemon that check it like hitting that typing to kill it. Mono Psychic is actually one of the best typings in the game when given bulk and/or tools to circumvent Dark and Steel types, both things Mew has. Look at Reuniclus and Alakazam.

    Also Psychic>Psyshock in almost every regard for mew. Don't see why people have an obsession with using the latter.

    Note this is me talking with the NP set in mind, don't have experience with the SD one since it's not as appealing and easy to build around, though do correct me if I'm wrong on the latter.

    You can also post all the calcs you want however in the end it doesn't emulate in game scenarios. Like NP Mew vs Suicune. Mienshao switching on Nasty Plot then U-Turning into Hydreigon to go for a kill is all fine and dandy and Mienshao can rack up huge damage by itself if the opponent tries to Aura Sphere Hydreigon with Mien staying in...but then the opponent can read into that and just Psychic on Mienshao first and end that idea right there. You can kill with Blackglasses Krook, just like how you can beat Doublade in theory, but then get an aura sphere in the face on switch and be screwed(or mispredict and unsuccessfully eat a Sacred Sword). Isn't that right @Draciel ?* It's why calcs are supposed to be supplementary to arguments, not be the driving force of your point. Just vomiting calcs into discussion doesn't accurately display the presence Mew holds during matches which is why it's looked down upon.

    *Also, don't be brave enough to challenge a Heracross with your Snorlax. Teach it fear!
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
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  20. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    just a sidenote why is it always just me 1v2ing this shit when the side im on is always more prevalent, kody or celg can u whores jump in (dont ban me i know them)

    i didnt mention ice beam suicune cuz i thought you guys already knew that that shit does 0 damage to celebi and it swallows all of it back up with giga drain, so no i dont think that thats something mew has over celebi. i didnt brush off aura sphere, this is what i said "the only advantage id say mew has over celebi is access to aura sphere which lets it hit both hydreigon and steels but then again, scarf hydreigon nearly ohkoes mew with dark pulse anyway".
    mega aero also nearly ohkoes (around 85%) mew with crunch which has become a lot more viable now as a move cuz of mew reun and cress bein used more.
    mew is pretty confined to a moveset on np. it needs psychic stab, shadow ball and aura sphere because thats the only advantage it has over celebi, bein able to hit hydreigon (which is one mon tho) so its not gnna be able to run energy ball or whatever to bust thru mega toise (lives +2 psyshock, smashed by dark pulse) and other fat waters like celebi can with ease and recover a bunch of hp.

    i disagree i dont think on mews offensive sets it can just pick whatever coverage moves it wants based on the team because psychic stab/drain punch/sucker are pretty much locked in. even if you have somethin for hydreigon its still gnna get in there and get momentum with uturn if ur runnin say seed bomb for waters over dpunch. drain punch is the only thing sd mew has that celebi doesnt (as far as useful physical coverage moves) so if u want seed bomb for waters, celebi gets that stab and also has sucker punch anyway. whether u guys admit it or not, what im getting out of yours, finchs, and batmans posts is a very large dependance on surprise factor as an argument. surprise factor is not exclusive to mew. if youre usin sd celebi and they bring in florges thinkin ur spdef u get essentially 2 sds off, one while florges is in and another when it switches out, its the same exact situation. azelf fronting as lead azelf turns out its np now its gnna punch holes in ur squad. the difference is as ive given examples to before, mew is outclassed in these surprise roles barring a small advantage it has over celebi with aura sphere on np. but like i said thats really only good for hydreigon, whereas celebi gets the advantage of not gettin smashed by mega toise, bustin thru fat waters with ease and good recovery from drain. mew also gets smashed by almost everything celebi gets smashed by. ur aero example didnt work out cuz crunch is extremely viable on aero now, both get smashed by shit like lo tini, hydreigon, chandy, etc.

    like i said with cune, +0 beam isnt doing shit and drain swallows all that back up. blastoise runs dark pulse which smashes both of them. ill give you uturn but almost everything that get uturn can smash mew anyway like bee, victini, etc. like i said before, aura sphere only grants mew safety from hydreigon and again, giga drain is imo superior because of reasons previously mentioned. to the umbreon and snorlax example, theyre both succeptible to paras from lax except celebi has natural cure and giga drain doesnt care if its a 3hko. also body slam does pitiful damage to both. umbreons foul play isnt doin much to either with 0 attack ivs and both can deal with it fine. i dnno what toxic ur talkin about there, umb is like 99% of the time wish protect foul play healbell. ill give u the point that mew has the choice of psyshock or psychic but its not that relevant in a lot of scenarios cuz most things that mew can ko with psyshock, celebi can boost up on anyway like blissey and drain up blisseys 2000 hp.


    if you run psyshic ur gnna be weaker to shit like blissey, florges, etc cuz u dont have giga drain and ur gnna get worn down more easily.


    those are random 50/50 situations tbh, doesnt really prove much. np celebi vs florges. florges user switches out to mienshao predicting np and uturns into hydreigon yey. but np celebi psychics, aww.

    lol in the last like 3 or 4 posts i havent posted calcs once and ur really gnna suggest that calcs are the driving force of my argument? i had 5 calcs in one section of one quote reply and it was to show how garbage non-lo (needs lum for fat waters) sd mew is against the tiers most common physical walls.

    again, you guys are putting way too much emphasis on surprise factor. surprise factor isnt exclusive to mew. if youre usin sd celebi and they bring in florges thinkin ur spdef u get essentially 2 sds off, one while florges is in and another when it switches out, its the same exact situation. azelf fronting as lead azelf turns out its np now its gnna punch holes in ur squad. yea i just requoted.
    and as i said before the surprises it does hold are not overwhelming, similar to running into an sd celebi. its not broken.
     
  21. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I dont know, those sure look like calcs to me!

    I also specifically stated it's not mew's unpredictability that makes it broken but you're just not going to listen or read correctly at this point.

    Also has anyone even bothered using BP Mew yet?
     
  22. Halsey

    Halsey Wildstar

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    Yeah I agree, Mew is a bad Azelf / Celebi in every possible way. Not only those Pokemon have a far better movepool and are way more versatile, but they can also Baton Pass Attack / Special Attack + Speed, which is something Mew can't do.

    Those Pokemon, unlike Mew, can abuse their absurd versatility and ability to bluff dozens of different movesets to gain free chances and boost consistently against 99% of the tier, and then sweep or pass those boosts to something else, like Aerodactyl. The best thing about those Pokemon is how they can even run Taunt to straight up ruin Roar / Whilrwind users and BP freely.

    Additionally, Celebi can run some top notch sets, like Taunt + WoW, Mix wallbreaker, defensive with Defog, lure (Can't specify because it has the ability to lure and beat literally every single one of its checks and counters), Bulk Up, Suicide lead, Flame Charge + SD + Baton Pass, etc. There's literally no reason to use Mew!
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
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  23. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    ur right 5 calcs in one section of one post after like 4 posts responding to shit = calcs based arugment only, clean

    lol i responded to all ur points and ur nitpicking the fact that i mentioned it sounded like parts of ur argument were unpredictability based like this "You can kind of see it on the team preview, but of course it's never 100% certain."

    never said its a bad azelf, i said the mew sets that were bein discussed like np are done better by celebi and azelf and sd done better by other physical attackers, reasons why are in previous posts.
    a lot of this is unpredictability based random shit. celebi can run nastypass, cm, sd, expert belt, np, sdpass, cmpass, healing wish, subseed, dual screens, trick, spdef oh my the unpredictability.
    defog is the only set u mentioned that isnt outclassed or has a lot of competition. mix wallbreaker is ass and stallbreaker ive already talked about numeruous times.
    bp+taunt is aids but thats a problem with bp more than mew which for some reason has yet to either be banned or complex banned with bp+speed boost but iirc its currently bein discussed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
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  24. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    I'll just post some things I feel needs to be adressed concerning Stallbreaker Mew.
    @ThatMushroom

    First off, stallbreaker mew does not "only do well vs stall", it's also very good vs balanced teams because it can shut down clerics, which can be pretty big in slowly dismantling a balanced team. It also beats a lot of setup mons such as crocune, snorlax and reuniclus, all things that are known for being hard to handle.
    It can also be useful against offense, spreading burns on your opponent's team to cripple some pokemon.
    However, even if Stallbreaker Mew was to be "only good vs stall", its ability to slaughter it would still make it broken. Gothitelle was pretty much only good vs stall (it did OK vs balance and was complete deadweight vs Offense, the most common playstyle at the time), and yet it was deemed broken. Stallbreaker Mew fills a hugely similar niche, and yet you believe that set is not broken at all. Funny how some people's minds shift as suspects go.

    Note: I am not saying mew traps and gets to pick its targets (like goth) ; they function in very different ways. However, both are fairly consistent at what they do: beating stall. While the methods used to do it differ vastly, the outcome is very similar.

    Of the things you mention that will beat Mew, the only thing that works is mega toise (and it'll get burned). Blastoise is a pokemon that is very easy to wear down and it won't enjoy switching into seismic toss either. Thats a shaky check.
    Espeon is not in the tier, whereas Xatu cannot do much in return to mew (set up cm and blast it with stored power? idk).
    Reuniclus gets taunted and loses soundly, that is not even remotely close to a check.
    PP stalling stoss with burned pokemon might sound like it could work in theory, but in practice you'll realize how futile that is because all it's going to do is
    delay the game (things get even uglier if you add in SR). Even if mew doesn't end up killing evry single pokemon on your team, your squad will be left horribly crippled.

    Also, if you were to try to prove that the Stallbreaker set is not broken, you wouldn't bother mentionning stuff that is "better than it" and would focus on the actual set. This discussion is about Mew, not Celebi/Feraligatr/Crobat.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
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  25. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    i dont think spreading burns around on shit that doesnt care about burns and can ohko you like hydreigon is doin that much vs offense tbh. when you see mew its pretty safe to assume its running will-o so idk what kind of retard would throw in somethin like a lucario vs mew unless u think its bout to roost or somethin.
    its not great vs balance either, yea burn and taunt an umbreon and get synchrod now a balance threat that you cant do shit to like entei is coming in.

    the comparison of mew and goth is pretty laughable. stall had literally no way to play around goth other than shed shell which, asking a stall player to put shed shell on 6 mons, is out of the question. stall has more methods to deal with stallbreaker mew than it does stallbreaker crobat lol.

    here are some literally just off the top of my head, and ive played stall strictly for about two years (stopped a while ago cuz it got boring) so ive used all these mons and they all fit fine on stall.
    -mega blast. i dont think something that only fears 12% from a burn and ohkoes mew with dark pulse is a "shaky check".
    -xatu. once stallbreaker mew is toxicd/twaved its crippled for the most part. as a former stall player ive had experience with shit like mew and i would happily allow my xatu to get synchrod just to end mew.
    -whimsicott. encore mew into stoss/will-o and status it, basically crippled.
    -aromatisse (way better at handling mence that florges btw, more physbulk). has aroma veil, ignores taunt, can status you.
    -fat hydreigon (seriously underrated imo, shits on stuff like chandy, rotom-h, raikou, taunt stops crocune, etc). threatens with both dark pulse and taunt.
    -spdef bu scrafty. extremely underrated wincon for stall, has shed skin and threatens with knock off.
    -crobat. defog/sb bat on stall is really good. great vs balance and can stallbreak other stall. my set was defog/roost/taunt/bb. outspeeds mew and taunts it, now its status fodder.

    i came up with those in less than a minute. stall has options against stallbreaker mew lol..and most of those get smashed by stallbreaker bat. stallbreaker bat has less counters vs stall than stallbreaker mew.
    .
    so yea like i said, outclasssed.
    all its set other than defog are outclassed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  26. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    So i read most of what everyone said and while I was first anti ban, something that @pokemonnerd brought up made me think a little differently
    Looking at the tier, we have, for a while, had to make sure not to give defensive psychic types multiple free turns for whatever (demon fetus) reason. It is no coincidence then that the best types of mews have been the offensive and status variants. Basically what i'm trying to say is that the coming into the tier, mew was set up not to succeed and it sort of dominated the tier just by running a different set. I have no intention of seeing how good this thing is when people aren't running Tini+Krook+Blast cores and it can actually use its best set which is clearly defog. Nothing is even close to as good of a hazard removing wall
    (Being neutral to rocks is a big fucking deal)
    . It taunts what it wants. It has what ever coverage it wants. Mew can only really get better the longer it stays in uu with its bulk/unpredictability and is far more metagame defining then I think is healthy for any one mon.

    Lets not get carried away here
    252+ SpA Life Orb Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 244-289 (60.3 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +1 4 SpA Reuniclus Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 45.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  27. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Off the mons you mentionned, the only (somewhat) common mons on stall are Blastoise, Aromatisse and Crobat (crobat aint switching in though, can't take a will-o or a taunt). Blastoise is extremely prone to being worn down through a match (a burn only makes it easier), its poor longevity is why I'm saying it's a shaky check. Also how are you going to toxic mew with xatu if it burns you first??
    That leaves us with aromatisse, which works as it is immune to taunt. Yey we found something (there's a reason that thing is not popular at all in UU, but I'm not going to say it's totally useless).

    I was comparing what mew and goth can do to stall (outright beat it), not the method they use to do it. You would have understood that if you had read my post.

    As for Reuniclus being a check, the TR set is not popular at all on stall ; the cm set is. The calc should look more like this:
    4 SpA Reuniclus Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) -- 64.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    Idk how reuniclus got to +1 in your second calc.

    Edit: Just a tiny nitpick

    While a burn does not render hydreigon completely useless, saying Hydreigon "doesnt care about burns" is exaggerated. A common u-turn user that gets plenty of switch in opportunities does not enjoy being burned. If you add SR, it is stripped of 1/4 of its health evrytime it switches in ; thats a pretty big deal. Even if your hydreigon is the roost LO set, being burned forces you to roost a lot more than you'd want to, not to forget that it limits mixed hyd's wallbreaking capacities. If you're going an example of a mon that doesn't care for a burn, pick a good one.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2015
  28. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Couldn't sleep, didn't have internet for most of the day yesterday, figured I'd finally give some input to Mew. Already I see, we're going with if it doesn't fit ThatMushroom logic 101 where everything seemingly is only able to run 4 standard move and any other OO (Other Option) is automatically bad and should never be ran.

    Because Mew is better than Victini.
    Because unlike Victini, Mew actually has good stat boosting moves (that aren't PUP)
    Because Mew is better than Feraligatr.
    Because Mew is even better than Suicune and Reuinclus.
    Mew is faster than a speeding Feraligatr, Mew speed ties Victini and forces it to go Banded Jolly if it wants a clean KO on an Offensive Mew.
    Because Mew can stop Suicune and Reuniclus from doing their set up breaking jobs, but will in fact lose to the TR Reuniclus. This we can not deny.

    Para above, Mew is better than god damn Gatr, and always will be.
    Because Mew is better than Celebi at all those.
    Because Mew doesn't have 7 weaknesses, ALL OF WHICH are actually commonly spread out in the tier. Sure it gets resistances to Water and Ground switch ins, because obviously Swampert doesn't run Ice Punch, Blastoise doesn't have Dark Pulse or Ice Beam, Hippo doesn't run whirlwind to just throw it back out.
    Because unlike Celebi which doesn't have an actually physically (SD Set) offensive recovery move like Drain Punch, it can also beat Snorlax and Blissey without really getting forced out because it has access to Psyshock unlike Celebi.
    Because unlike Celebi it also has a way to win against Mandibuzz, Hydreigon and some other things that NP Celebi can't actually win against without dropping a potentially vital coverage move.
    Because if those are all "free switch ins" thinking it's the standard stallbreaker Mew or defensive Defog one, all those except Defensive Rotom-H get blasted by SD or NP mew, unless it's specifically Scarf Hydreigon and Chandelure. Why? Because Mew is naturally faster than both of those.

    Does anything have to be the current best at everything to be broken, unhealthy, or overwhelming for most teams in the tier? No. The fun thing about Mew is that it's literally able to pick and choose what it wants to target. Defog Mew is there to be entirely painful for most every by crippling anything Physical with burns (hell it could run thunder wave just to fuck with Fire types like Entei or Chandelure). I guess your Mandibuzz doesn't fear switch ins from Florges, Mega Blastoise, Rhyperior, Raikou, Cobalion, Nidoking, Mega Ampharos, Cloyster, and the like. Obviously you don't think about what things can do to a Mandibuzz, especially since several of these can use it as set up fodder.

    Ok, your team is weak to two things that support mew isn't fully beating...it's like comparing apples to oranges. Defog Mew and Mandibuzz do the same thing but as a support to different Pokemon. They aren't even remotely the same Pokemon, so it's not like they can just copy each other, that's like asking for Espeon to fall just so you can have a more Offensive Xatu, because they are literally the same Pokemon bar some stat differences and a typing difference.

    Also, what exactly does it better and how many? Nasty Plot sweeper? I count 3 really. Infernape, Azelf, and Zoroark. All 3 are frail, and before the NP their power is a bit question, but better than Mew's. However, it's their frailty that makes their set ups a lot harder than Mew, because unlike them, Mew is tanking hits, and being faster than most of the tier (because 328 is a good speed tier). Swords Dance? Again Infernape, Cobalion, maybe Haxorus, really best one if HAWLUCHA, Zoroark. A bit more. If you want to tell me that Lucario or Feraligatr are better, when Lucario is indeed slower and has frailty issues too, and Gatr is fairly well slower, with roughly the same bulk, try me. Everything else that does these are outdone by Mew.

    I mean what 4MSS? SD + Sucker Punch/Knock Off + Zen Headbutt + Drain Punch. What do you really need more than those on an offensive SD set to your average player? NP has Aura Sphere, optional Psychic vs Psyshock, and something like Ice Beam or fill in with random coverage/healing to adjust to whatever threat your team might need stopped. Now stallbreaker Mew I will give has a 4MSS syndrome. Will-O-Wisp + Taunt + Soft-Boiled are what you will pretty much see every time. The difference is what it's damaging. Seismic Toss is just lovely for regular damage, Psyshock for obvious way to hit some certain things like Poison and Fighting types for Super Effective damage. Ice Beam is a really cool 4th move too.

    The thing about Mew is that the potential for it to be the Stallbreaker with WoW wll always be there for any physical attacker you send in thinking you could kill it with a Dark move or U-Turn to do massive damage. The stallbreaker set has more conventional checks and counters to it when you find out what it's actual 4th move is, but make a wrong move and it can burn you back. Send out a Salamence thinking, "Oh, I have Lum, I can just set up Dragon Dance...and not kill at +1 and potentially get burned. Or I actually eat an Ice Beam, and there goes my threatening Salamence." Oh sad day Salamence, you had a good try.

    There is always a bunch of things that can go wrong fighting Mew and be devastating to a team, because it can literally pick from it's moves and you can build specifically around it, and tailor to whatever you want to. Though really Mew doesn't need more than 3 move types on Offensive sets to actually win vs 90% of the tier. SD with the set I listed above, what's going to actually stop it if a SD happens? Mega Blastoise at 100% HP? I know Hippo and Mandibuzz can, I guess Gligar with Toxic is going to stall it out to a degree. Sharpedo definitely, which wins against every set in some way (Sub Sharpedo can win vs Wisp, and normal wins vs any offensive with Protect), as well as pretty much the other offensive Scarf Dark types unless it has Colbur. Arcanine and Klefki can be annoying to it. Switch that and if it's the NP that manages to get set up, you basically end up with the same group, minus Mandibuzz, Hippo, Arcanine, Gligar, and probably can replace with I guess Scarf Chandelure and Mega Bee being able to not fear something like Sucker Punch.

    Does it have like the 2nd or 3rd largest movepool in all of Pokemon? Yes. Does it actually need to garner more than 4 of those moves at any given time to counter almost everything? No. I mean from set to set, you will have slow have different checks and counters, where the Stallbreaker set literally comes with the always initial fear of Will-O-Wisp and burning anything Physical from switching into, and even most Special Attackers don't like the residual damage that comes with the Burn. More checks to this one and it does guarantee the free switches you mentioned, but I wouldn't even count it towards the best set it can run, especially because it's only the most splashable one to build a team around that Mew will support with this type of set. That initial fear is a put of to a lot of things, and because it's geared to make you switch into say a Fire type, leaves a lot more lee-way in actually setting up say NP or SD sets. There are checks and counters, but really it's way more unpredictable than Victini or Gatr or Reuniclus. Because with 2 of those 3 you know what you get, and with Victini it's got a better distribution where as Victini only has STAB V-Create on it. That really leads me towards a support of a ban, because while it can't hit everything at once with each specific set, it's easy to custom make a Mew to hit what you specifically expect it to be able to hit, leaving a lot of ambiguity to most teams actually defeating the team support it gives though the literally unlimited combinations it could have while only needing an actually small number of moves.
     
  29. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I mean you can use defog since it's probably the best hazard remover in the tier, @Purpleseamonkey barring very specific team needs, but that just wastes so much of its other potential. Plus it's not the broken set(s).

    Also how the fuck do you compare SD Celebi to SD Mew, when it doesn't have drain punch and multiple ways to raise speed to actually kill Scarf Hydreigon? Colbur berry SD BP Mew is a thing that can get easy sweeps by killing a dark type then passing to a teammate.

    See @ThatMushroom, you keep at least trying to argue against the fact that having many sets makes you a monster to deal with in the team builder let alone in a battle, but you have to realize mew's sets are actually all very good. Specs Chesnaught is not good. Belly Drum is far too slow to do anything. Any offensive variant of chesnaught is slow as shit which is a major weakness making it not as viable as most actually good Mew sets. Neither is SD Celebi. Or CM Celebi. Celebi itself actually is pretty limited in what it can successfully run since so many common pokemon naturally pray on it, again due to the grass typing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  30. ThatMushroom

    ThatMushroom The Spirit Molecule

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    @Celestial Phantom you took the first post i made here and responded with points ive already debated in other posts so if you want answers to that stuff i rec reading through these walls, then after u read thru if you still feel theres somethin i said that is debatable ill respond.

    @pokemonnerd k i dont think you guys read my shit at all. i didnt say celebi is a better user of sd, i said mew is outclassed by other users of sd. i think this is what youre referring to "i disagree i dont think on mews offensive sets it can just pick whatever coverage moves it wants based on the team because psychic stab/drain punch/sucker are pretty much locked in. even if you have somethin for hydreigon its still gnna get in there and get momentum with uturn if ur runnin say seed bomb for waters over dpunch. drain punch is the only thing sd mew has that celebi doesnt (as far as useful physical coverage moves) so if u want seed bomb for waters, celebi gets that stab and also has sucker punch anyway."
    its post #20, what that was was a response to you saying that mews offensive sets can be tailored to fit any team, and like np, mews moves are pretty much locked into zen/drain/sucker and psy/shadowball/aurasphere.
    i was bein sarcastic when i said specs chesnaught. also sd celebi isnt bad, its just average and outclassed like mew. it has just as much surprise factor as mew and will prolly be able to get up two sds like in that situation with florges i mentioned before. its still not really gnna get past hydreigon or aggron but those are just two mons. thats really the only advantage mew has over celebi in its sd set is bein able to hit those two.

    anyway, its pretty obvious that mews gettin banned at this point because the antiban ppl are lazy fucks so yea, also the tier leader bias is extremely obvious just by how quickly mew was suspected with no one even bringin it up as potentially broken. i dont feel like the proban points were very good and i think i countered pretty much every point that was brought up but whatevs. the only broken set mew has imo is baton pass but like i said in my response to ellie, that is a problem more with baton pass than mew which shouldve been either banned or complex banned a while ago but is currently bein discussed.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  31. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I don't really agree with the school of thought that something needs "broken sets" to be broken. I think it's mons in their entirety that are broken because any one of mews individual sets are easily prepared for but the combined sum of them is what makes it too good. Mew can fit on / deal with any type of team on any given day and will always have the tier changing/revolving around it because of the shear number of options at its disposal. Here lies the disconnect between a Mush and pro ban. Regardless of how many answers we find to individual sets, stopping it requires an understanding of what it is trying to do; which is an unknown. I cant stress how much this tier is really centered around beating defensive psychic types and despite this (temporary) fact, a mishandling of mew puts a player at an insurmountable disadvantage because of the threat of things like +2 spcA pass, +2 att with prio, crippled/taunted attackers, and random coverage. Top attackers in the tier are Krook, Tini, Hydreigon, Chandy, Herra, MDrill but when they try to act as stoppers to mew it just does something else
    (twave is viable and deals with like half)
    This was probably suspected too quickly after it was dropped. Mew is still borked and should be banned bc it's very unhealthy to uu
     
  32. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    The end.

    Mew's main strength comes from its unparalleled versatility. With a decent stat spread and an "OK" typing, it is capable of running a gigantic amount of different sets, with a lot of them being extremely potent. While most individual sets may not be broken on their own, mew's vast array of options make it incredibly difficult (read: almost impossible) to prepare for. Being capable of picking its own niche and beating almost wathever it wants to beat (to fit a team's needs) is a powerful ability indeed.

    Mew will now be Banned from ORAS UU, thanks to everyone for participating.
     
    pokemonnerd and Finchinator like this.
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