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Suspect Discussion: Hawlucha (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 UU' started by bugzinator, Aug 15, 2015.

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  1. bugzinator

    bugzinator Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    All credit goes to user: @The Alio for this masterpiece


    Discuss the possibility of Hawlucha being banned from the ORAS UU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Hawlucha's impact on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it is capable of using, and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on wether Hawlucha should be banned (or not) from the metagame. Having no firm stance on the matter is fine too.

    All opinions are valid and discussion among players is not only allowed but encouraged, provided your opinion has solid reasoning and displays having playing with or against Hawlucha in the tier. Do not simply state "it's broken" or "it's not broken".

    Users that are unsure about suspect posting are encouraged to check this guide out.
     
    Edna, E.T., NananaBatman and 2 others like this.
  2. E.T.

    E.T. Proud Member Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Hawlucha is a very deadly sweeper that has few common answers. One of its deadliest sets would be something like Swords Dance, Acrobatics, High Jump Kick, and Sky Attack with a Power Herb that allows it to use Sky Attack in one turn and activate Unburden which doubles its speed. Replacing Sky Attack with Substitute while letting Hawlucha hold a Sitrus Berry is another variant that I've seen too though. Going over checks and counters:

    Arcanine: A shaky check since it is weak to SR. Flare Blitz + Extreme Speed has the potential to KO while Arcanine should survive incoming attacks thanks to Intimidate. It has WoW too if Hawlucha doesn't have Sub, and it also has reliable recovery in Morning Sun.

    Doublade: The best way to deal with Hawlucha by far. Doublade takes minimal damage from Hawlucha's STABs and can 2HKO back with Iron Head.

    Quagsire: Thanks to Unaware, all of Hawlucha's attacks only 3HKO which means Quagsire can use its reliable recovery to be able to wear down Hawlucha eventually.

    Crobat: Crobat is able to beat the Substitute sets thanks to Infiltrator and Brave Bird. If it switches in on a Sky Attack though, it will be outsped after Unburden.

    Rotom/Rotom-S: Rotom and Rotom-S resist or are immune to Hawlucha's STABs and can OHKO with Thunderbolt with a little investment. They probably are not very good in the UU meta though.

    While Doublade is a very good Hawlucha counter who isn't bad in the meta at the moment, the other answers for Hawlucha are either unreliable, not very splashable on teams, or they're just bad in the current metagame. Apart from randomly running Protect on things that Hawlucha would want to HJK, I think this is just about all UU has to deal with Hawlucha, which isn't enough to keep it in check. I think Hawlucha is broken in ORAS UU and should be banned.
     
  3. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    This is a very interesting suspect. While I haven't exactly played too much UU recently, allow me to point out a few things.

    Hawlucha gets a very good stab combo, so much so that we can afford to run two stab moves of the same type. Doublade is practically the only relevant mon who resist his stab. His base 92 atk is deceptively strong, since unburden combined with high base speed means there's little reason to not run adamant max atk. Also his main two stabs have 110 and 130 base power, so he hits like a truck.

    However, Hawlucha has his fair share of issues. It's extremely frail. 78/75/63 defenses are simply horrible. This means Hawlucha finds it very difficult to find a setup opportunity. Unburden means he can get the speed boost only once. He also needs minimum two turns two achieve both So phazing once leaves Hawlucha open to being easily revenge killed later. With max speed and adamant nature Hawlucha gets outsped by positive base 105.

    Adding to @E.T. 's post,
    Doublade is by far the best spinblocker UU has, so being hard countered by him is quite bad. But I think there are a few more counters and checks in UU's disposal.

    Physically defensive Swampert is a nice counter, avoids Ohko from +2 HJK after rocks. Ice punch/roar both screws it over.
    Metagross is in the same boat. 252/0 Metagross lives +2 HJK with ease. MM+BP kills.
    Defensive Mega Ampharos takes maximum of 79% from +2 HJK. You only need max hp investment to survive +2 HJK without rocks, so offensive sets can be tailored to do it as well.
    Standard Tank Mega Aggron (252 HP/16+Def) can live a +2 HJK as well, proceed to t-wave/ice punch/heavy slam.
    DD Mence (as in the one with intimidate) can switch in, live one hit and ohko back.
    Jirachi can handle him with max hp investment. Specially the wish set carries protect, which helps as well.
    Cresselia as expected, does not give a fuck what Hawlucha does, who is weak to all of psychic/moonblast/ice beam.
    Klefki does very well against sky attack set. Even against sub set it can para before dying.
    Mega Aero can come in against anything other than sky attack, and proceed to kill/break subs.
    Roar suicune can handle Hawlucha just fine.

    Now One can say these are not exactly most reliable checks/counters; but does that not apply to practically every threat in the tier?
    Stall can easily run the specific counters to hawlucha, it's what stall is supposed to do after all. Balance commonly carries one or more from the large selection of soft checks/counters UU has. On offense, only thing Hawlucha can setup on is Choice scarf Hydra locked in Dark pulse. Even there there are quite a few priority users who can revenge kill without much issue.

    I'd also like to draw comparison to another unburden user Slurpuff. As it is with unburden sweepers, they can sweep only once. Unlike Hawlucha though, Slurpuff needs only one turn to sweep, and a arguably better defensive typing. Slurpuff also has drain punch to get back the health lost.
    That raises the question if Hawlucha is even the best at what it does, let alone too good for the tier.

    With all that, I think the tier has just enough things to handle Hawlucha. He should stay imo.
     
    Purpleseamonkey likes this.
  4. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    A few points I'd like to touch on
    A lot of your answers either need to be at full health/lose to subsitute sets (the best of them probably being sub liechi, to further boost hawlucha's attack). Hawlucha is a late-game sweeper, its not going to set-up turn 1 and slaughter everything, so "this doesnt get ohkoed" isn't that strong of an argument. Hawlucha does get only 1 shot, but that's pretty much all it needs, doesn't it? Also, to address a few of the mons you mentionned
    Phys pert: Ok, u can roar it out if you're rly healthy
    Metagross: Who uses that set tho. Loses if its sub liechi (because it will get to +3).
    Defensive Mega Ampharos: No recovery outside of rest and no lefties makes this 1 easy to wear down, but it can work.
    Mega Aggron: +3 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Filter Mega Aggron: 297-351 (86.3 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
    DD mence: what is mence going to do if hawlucha is behind a sub other than die.
    Jirachi: Protect Jirachi is extremely uncommon, but +3 OHKOs max hp variants, so its protect vs HJK mindgame. Shaky.
    Cresselia: This should work unless u let hawlucha set up.
    Klefki: Will lose if hawlucha is behind its sub.
    Mega aero: This is fairly shaky, too. Sub hawlucha will win.
    Roar Suicune: Ok that works.


    Hawlucha doesn't set up "only" on dark pulse when it is up against offense. Any choice locked fightning type is set up fodder as they cannot OHKO and will activate unburden, thus leading to a possible sweep opportunity. Against offense, the simple activation of its liechi berry can be enough to completely destroy the opposing team, so "setting up" isn't as hard as you make it out to be (hawlucha only needs to live 1 hit).

    Pls don't compare slurpuff (or any other pokemon) to hawlucha, they are not the subject of this suspect.
     
  5. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    Let's not get into how much health which mon has left argument shall we? That's dependent on match situation and teambuilding. Yeah you can wear down mons with offensive synergy. That's just how pokemon works, not exclusive to Hawlucha.

    If "This doesn't get ohkod" is not a strong argument for a endgame sweeper then 'the sweep can be halted' should be a good argument right?
    It has been emphasized that Hawlucha is a let game sweeper. That should also mean Klefki dying after priority para is a good enough exchange, is it not? In fact Klefki will be able to paralyze Hawlucha before he gets the unburden and liechi berry boost.
    The second most common set Metagross runs have bullet punch.
    You can also add hippo to the list of thing which can phaze out lucha without much issue.

    I kind of overstated the part when I said only scarfed dark pulse from hydra can be set up on offense, my bad. Still only choice locked fighting type that doesn't 2hko Hawlucha is Choice Scarf Heracross. Even then Close Combat does min 40%.

    I myself did mention that a lot of these are unreliable answers. Thats what checks are by definition. The point is not that Hawlucha has 10 hard counters; that is not that case for any mon in the tier. The point is that there are enough hard checks/soft checks/counters combined that make hawlucha quite manageable without being overly dependent on any singular mon; and therefore my stance is 'Not Ban'.
     
  6. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    Pert/Gross not getting ohko'd means you'll have to preserve them for the entirety of the match just so they can stop hawlucha, Considering these mons have no recovery, its fairly safe to assume they could have taken prior damage and be in KO range for hawlucha, because "that's how pokemon works".
    +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 283-334 (70.5 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (+3 is pretty grim for pert).
    +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Metagross: 294-346 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Also I was referring to the metagross spread (and not the set), sorry for poor wording.

    Doing 40% to hawlucha isn't enough, that only allows it to set up sd and activate its berry. If anything, you'd be dooming yourself.
     
  7. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    I didn't mean 40% would be enough. I specifically mentioned Hera gets setup on. I just meant "look how much damage it takes".
    I meant max hp metagross, rest evs can go anywhere; it doesn't matter. Meta tanks one hit, breaks sub, and then kills with bullet punch.

    "that's how pokemon works" haha then I guess we don't really have a problem, do we? weaken your counter, then go for the kill.... just another cleaner.
     
  8. NananaBatman

    NananaBatman Well-Known Member

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    252+ Atk Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 94-112 (31.4 - 37.4%) -- 88.4% chance to 3HKO

    If you're going to bring up checks/counters, you could at the very least bother calcing your stuff. Sitrus version will be above 50% when gross breaks the sub. Liechi (+3) will outright OHKO. Find something else.

    "That's how pokemon works" were your very ow words ayy. Hawlucha can clean a lot of teams with disturbing ease, it doesn't need a whole lot of support. Putting it in the "just a cleaner" category is a massive understatement. Its stabs are really strong and can demolish offense/balance if it gets its boosts (which aren't hard to obtain). Cleaners don't OHKO almost everything on offense/balance.

    Some calcs just to show how easily it can shred almost anything on HO.

    +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 312-367 (91.4 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 44 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 400-472 (132.8 - 156.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Feraligatr: 366-432 (117.6 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Mega Blastoise: 315-372 (87.9 - 103.9%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Salamence: 280-331 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Ampharos: 295-348 (77 - 90.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 128 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 349-412 (98.8 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

    I could post a lot more, but you probably get the idea by now. Mons with fair bulk and not weak to hawlucha's stabs stand very little chance against it because of how powerful it is. That's a little more than a simple cleaner imo.
     
  9. bugzinator

    bugzinator Well-Known Member

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    Time to get this wrapped up.

    Hawlucha's potential to set up (all it really needs to do is live a hit) and clean easily is unparalleled in the tier; thanks to it's ability (unburden) it can use sets like power herb + sky attack, or sub + liechi (or sitrus) to find an incredible amount of opportunities to set up and out speed the whole tier. When you combine this blistering speed with moves like swords dance and high powered stabs (plus great coverage) it can be extremely difficult to stop once it gets going. While some hard counters do exist; they are few and far between, which makes accounting for Hawlucha a great strain on team building. Offensive teams will struggle to find any pokemon which can survive a +2 attack, and wont be able to match the speeds of unburden Hawlucha either. Walls will also crumble with only some slight prior damage (can usually be set up bait too) which makes Hawlucha an instant threat to almost any team style (unless they pack one of the few specific counters).

    With all this considered Hawlucha is deemed to be an unhealthy presence in the current ORAS UU meta and will be banned.
     
    Yes., East's Mascot, Aurist and 2 others like this.
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