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Hoopa-Unbound Suspect Discussion (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by Finchinator, Aug 15, 2015.

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  1. Finchinator

    Finchinator Addicted and just can't get enough

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of Hoopa-Unbound being banned from the ORAS OU tier. Use this thread to discuss Hoopa-Unbound's effect on the metagame. Talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Hoopa-Unbound should be banned or if it should stay in the ORAS OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes a post based on theorymon risks being infracted.

    Important notes:
    • Stay on topic.
    • Post intelligently (common sense!!!)
    • Make meaningful posts. If your post doesn't contain any content, it is prone to being deleted. For example, posts that agree/don't agree with a certain point without any justification or explanation.
    Any questions, comments, or concerns can be directed at @MetalGross or myself. Happy posting!
     
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  2. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Hoopa-U has a multitude of positive characteristics that make it pretty freaking strong in OU right now. Here are just some of them:
    -Really strong STABs on both sides of the spectrum.
    -Perfect coverage and then some, again in both attack and special attack.
    -Amazing attack, special attack, and special bulk
    -Only two weaknesses
    -Enough speed to outpace most walls and semi-slow attackers.

    All this goes to make it an insane wallbreaker when given LO or a choice item, where SubSalac or Scarf sets actually make a surprisingly useful sweeper. Hoopa is not without its flaws however:
    -Pretty meh physical bulk
    -Literally zero resistances and one immunity to an uncommon type
    -Not enough speed to compete with other offensive pokes, easy to revenge on the physical side
    -U-turn and priority users are everywhere

    However, I feel most of these flaws are easily mitigated. OU is not even remotely hard-pressed for solid physically defensive partners to Hoopa like Ferro, Hippo, Bisharp, Slowbro, Rotom, Gliscor, Lando-T, Chomp, and Skarmory. The prevalence of Chomp and other Rocky Helmet users also helps wear down those physical attackers. This is also assuming that the physical attackers can get in safely in the first place, when there is not a single pokemon in the tier that can switch into all or even most of Hoopa's attacks and live/not be horribly dented. Hyperspace Fury/Knock Off/Dark Pulse + Psychic + Gunk Shot hits the whole tier for neutral damage, and then it can take an extra coverage or utility move to make it even easier to take down a specific pokemon, such as thunderbolt/punch to take down bulky waters or ice punch to take down all of the tier's bulky ground/flying/dragon types.

    Probably one of the worst things about it is the lack of opportunity cost it has. It can decimate everything your opponent throws at it, and then once it's finally dead you still have a mega ZardX or Zam or Altaria perfectly poised to sweep. And since it has only 2 weaknesses, it's not likely to have an anti-synergistic typing with the rest of your team.

    Long story short, I'm voting BAN.
     
  3. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Also leaning ban for the following reasons:

    - Good offensive typing with a movepool to abuse terrific offensive stats. Dark STAB (be it Knock Off/Hyperspace/Dark Pulse) has extremely good coverage alone, which helps wallbreaking a lot. This is complemented by access to Drain Punch (to alleviate LO recoil), Gunk Shot (to demolish Fairies who resist your STAB) and Psychic moves.
    - Stellar stats, which only Defence being problematic. SpDef is actually pretty decent, allowing to take some hits that most Pokemon with those offensive stats simply crumble to: 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 220-261 (73 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    - Incredible versatility, which makes you have to guess which set it's running. Given its amazing stats, that's most likely going to cost you 1 or 2 mons to figure it out. It can run Physical-based Mixed, Special-based Mixed, Scarf and 3 Att + Sub (my personal favourite), which all have different checks.
    - Barely any opportunity cost, since it doesn't take your mega slot.

    Just what I can think of for now, will probably add more throughout the discussion.
     
  4. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    This thing just needs to go and quickly
    It runs 160 atk and 170 spatk base stats: better than Kyurem-B who is already terrifying in stats.
    It also has an excellent movepool, both physical and special; it can also count on really cool utilities moves like Taunt, Trick Room, Trick, Reflect, Destiny Bond, Thunder Wave, Substitute.
    One of its main things is surely versatility: it can run so many different movepool, that they can run many different moves in these. For example, there are fully physical moveset, mixed one, fully special nplotter. Both three sets can choose moves like Hyperspace Fury/Knock Off/Dark Pulse, Psychic/Psyshock/Zen Headbutt, Drain Punch (which works as recovery move also)/Focus Blast, Gunk Shot, Fire Punch/HP Fire, Grass Knot/Energy Ball, Ice Punch/HP Ice, Shadow Ball, Signal Beam, Tpunch/Tbolt. Coverage is soo wide, and it can count also in Nasty Plot or Power-Up Punch to boost itself, even though it doesn't need a boost to break most of the metagame lulz. Furthermore, it can run several items: main one is Life Orb to be more effective in destroying fat balanced teams, but also Choice Scarf and Assault Vest works well. Focus Sash one is really cool in Hyper Offensive teams to destroy its answers; Healing Wish support helps it so much.
    It's also a really good specially defensive tank, so it can check several threats like latwins who can't psyshock it.
    Hoopa has also some cons, like average bad speed, really awful physical defense and 0 type advantages in checking stuff (like OUAzumarill said, zero resistance). It dies to the worst U-Turn output damage (Tornadus-T timid 0 atk lol), but guys seriously.. just switch out.. tornadus-t can't check hoopa properly like almost every uturn user doesn't.
    Hoopa-U's power is too much for OU imo, and unless really bad plays it should almost always kill at least one mon, or severely damages it.
    Even though metagame needs to differentiate its "balanced spam status" who doesn't allow an equal viability in playstyles, I don't think Hoopa can help the metagame properly in reaching a balance. BAN
     
  5. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    Woah woah woahhhhhhh.
    Just because it has an awesome attack and special attack and is an excellent stall breaker dosen't mean you can just ban it all willy nilly.
    Those post above prove excellent points about how offensive it is and how durable it is at taking a draco metor from latios, but it has flaws as well you know.
    For instance just give it a choice scarf and you can give it timid or jolly nature and it still wouldn't be enough.
    You can put it in a trick room team and you will only use it for at least 5 turns.
    Its also u-turn bait to mega beedrill and landrous-T.
    So it dosent affect the Hyper offensive parts of OU, only the high ladder stall pokemon used '-' ( come on guys srsly)
    In conclusion it shouldn't get banned !! '-'
    #Dealwithit (⌐■_■)
     
  6. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    How does it not affect Hyper Offense? It can tank virtually every good special attacker in the tier and almost nothing on hyper offense can switch in on it. And the few things that can require near-perfect prediction, which is impossible on something that hits so hard from both sides of the spectrum and with almost every type.

    I mean, just to put things in perspective, it hits harder on the physical side (it's weaker attack stat) with o Atk EV's and a negative nature than 252+ Attack base 100 pokes like Jirachi and Mew.
     
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  7. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    Hmm your argument with me falls flat since sacking mons is always apart of hyper offensive and it can lead to an easy revenge kill on hoopa-b
     
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  8. Dark San

    Dark San New Member

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    Um yeah I gotta side with this terrie guy. This thing known as hoopa b totally lacks momentum moves so what's it gonna do same turn after a kill? Switch away? Lool besides if you're sacking a Mon on hyper offense and it isn't win condition at the cost of revenging hoopa.....what's the problem?
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
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  9. [OG] Sub-Zero

    [OG] Sub-Zero [OG]

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    I don't see it's ban. It could be a useful late game sweep. But I don't see him coming in first turn and k-Oing an entire time with ease like Speed Boost Blaziken I don't think it'll be banned. But its good sp attk with AV Might Perfect for late game sweeping in OU. Overall I don't think Unbound will be banned from OU.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  10. greymatter1234

    greymatter1234 Trimmin' the tall grass.

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    This should be banned. I could write a long post, but I'll keep it short.

    +Can run mixed sets.
    +Has so many different varieties like substitute, scarf, specs/band, LO etc
    +Gets a kill almost everytime it comes in.

    -U-turn.
    -Bullet punch/Other strong physical priority/scarfed mons

    Although the above mentioned moves are really common, Hoopa-U still destroys most teams and does massive damage before going down. It can even switch out of expected physical attacks into walls like Ferrothorn or Skarmory and come back later on to continue it's sweep.

    So it will be better if it get banned.
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2015
  11. Edna

    Edna Christmas Time Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    This discussion is not about if it can tank hits or not tbh.

    When you take a look at Hoopa-B stats you notice: Excellent Atks, an amazing spe def for an offensive pokemon, a very middling speed and a bad defense.
    However, the defense part should not be an argument wether it's broken or not ( Deoxys-A can't take a hit, that doesn't make it OUable)

    It can run multiple sets due to its high atks, which make it quite unpredictable on the side it's going to play ( sure team preview helps, but not everytime)

    The Sub set demolish stall on its own, I don't understand the argument we need broken stallbreaker just so high ladder is not complete stall ( on a side note: Mega Gardevoir, Pinsir and Heracross stallbreak already well enough). The scarf set deals okay vs Balanced, it can revenge kill many stuff and run gunk shot for Clefable. However, it has hard time with hyper offense because of its speed and the very common set up sweepers/scarfers of HO.

    In my opinion, the Trick Room set is the less good ( it's still solid, don't get me wrong) because it only get 4 turns to attack, and needs to predict every move the opponent is going to do in order to work. Also, 80 speed is way too much for TR setter since unlike Victini, it doesn't use attacks that lower speed.

    It's typing is also quite middling, while Dark is a good offensive typing, Psychic is a bad one since it negates the Dark and Ghost resistence, which nowadays, are nearly the best offensive typings.

    For the suspect side:
    Hoopa-B is a pokemon that got introduced not so long ago, and has been proven to have an excellent wallbreaking/stallbreaking abilities. It affects way much some playstyle ( the same way Kyurem-B does) and the fact Hyperspace fury bypass Protect and Subs makes it very good against the most common pokemons of the tier. However, it has a bad speed for an offensive sweeper and a good speed for a TR setter. It is in no way a set up bait, since it ohko nearly all it needs. I'm quite neutral for its ban, I want to see more discussion about it
     
  12. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    Since Hoopa-U is a rather straightforward mon, I'll try to keep this short. This thing has zero counters, and few soft checks. This thing can decimate teams without setup. He doesn't need to rely on super effective hits like Greninja or Kyu-b. His doesn't exactly suffer from 4mss. Psy/Dark/Fighting from special side or Dark/Fighting/Poison from physical side provides perfect coverage. The only thing that has a chance against that coverage can be taken care of by Thunderbolt. There's absolutely not a single pokemon in the game bar Mega Ray that can hit equally hard from both spectrum. Choice sets doesn't really have to predict all that much, since often its a matter of 2hko/Ohko if predicted right and 3hko/2hko if predicted wrong. Every time you have a mon out that can not ohko Hoopa-U, something is dying. With access to taunt & Nasty Plot, it's match-up against stall is simply brutal. He needs zero support on that regard. Even against HO, he can tank ridiculously strong special attacks(Zard Y Stab, LO Latios Draco) even without any investment and ohko back. It also has access to thunder wave, so that too helps against offensive teams.

    I can see how practical experience might lead some players to believe Hoopa-U is not ban worthy. At this moment the ladder is filled with offensive teams, who are just happy to let Hoopa-U get one kill and send something else to revenge. He doesn't sweep offensive teams, and scarf set is decent at best with base 80 speed. But from what I understand, we should be aiming for a metagame where every kind of playstyle is equally viable. Hoopa-U can make a whole playstyle unviable and can pull it's weight just fine against other playstyles. This alone should be ground for ban. As such, despite being an avid fan of the scariest mon in existence, I think Hoopa-U should be Banned.
     
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  13. E.T.

    E.T. K I N G Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Hoopa-U is definitely broken and needs to go. It has amazing offensive stats with base 160 Attack and 170 Special Attack and a very good move pool as well. I've been playing around with a LO set recently that has Hyperspace Fury, Psychic, Gunk Shot, and Drain Punch. Hyperspace Fury is the main attack that nukes anything that doesn't resist it while Psychic hits Fighting-types, Gunk Shot hits Fairy-types, and Drain Punch hits Dark-types and can be used for recovery. However, Hoopa-U has several other moves at its disposal such as Dark Pulse, Destiny Bond, Energy Ball, Fire Punch, Focus Blast, Ice Punch, Knock Off, Nasty Plot, Power-Up Punch, Psyshock, Taunt, Thunder Punch, Thunderbolt, Trick, Trick Room, and Zen Headbutt. Assault Vest (Hoopa-U has really good Special Defense too at base 130) and Choice sets are also very viable. With these tools at its disposal, Hoopa-U can be pretty versatile and hard to predict.

    Hoopa-U completely decimates stall, and it gives balanced a hard time too. It is usually least impressive against offensive teams, but it can still get a KO or two against some special attackers. Also, I haven't actually played with a scarf or Trick Room set yet, but I could see these potentially giving offense trouble as well. Hoopa-U appreciates slow Volt-Turn support from Pokemon like Mega Scizor and Rotom-W to get it in safely. It also appreciates Rocky Helmet users like Garchomp, Ferrothorn, or Skarmory that can switch into physical attackers that may try to force it out or revenge kill it. While Hoopa-U does have options like Trick Room or Choice Scarf to try to give offense trouble, the primary reason that I think Hoopa-U is broken is that it has no safe switch-ins and can therefore plow through stall and most balanced teams.

    Hoopa-U should be banned from ORAS OU.
     
    Cameltoed likes this.
  14. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    Hoopa-B has an insane 160 Atk, 170 Sp. Atk and a decent 80 Speed. His type receives neutral damage from Stealth Rock, STABs Dark and Psychic Moves, and with his giant movepool with Gunk Shot, Drain Punch, Thunderbolt, Hidden Power Fire / Ice, Grass Knot, etc, makes him hard to switch in. He has a lot of sets and usage: Taunt Set, Trick Room Teams, Life Orb Set, Substitute Set, Nasty Plot Set, Choice Scarf / Band / Specs Set, Trick Set, Assault Vest Set...

    This makes Hoopa-B a stallbreaker, wallbreaker or anything breaker, limiting Stall and Balanced teams. Against Hyper Offense, he has a good Sp. Def and even without investment can survive to special moves and give KO in just about any Pokémon without defensive investment.

    I know Hoopa-B will not be widely used in Uber metagame but he is way too broken to stay on OU (even though he is pretty cool Pokémon). Should be banned.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
  15. styler

    styler Pichu lover

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    I am voting for no ban i am not gonna write a book here on it (too tired) but srsly why the actual fuck do we test it when we have yet to fix hyperspace fury(lol) can we get input on this @Finchinator
     
  16. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Hyperspace Fury has been fixed. This is not a vote. If you don't want to prove yourself right with evidence then it's probably better if you just read the opinions of others. Hoopa is incredibly powerful and beats most special attackers in ou. It has a lot of versatility with its movepool and basically forces rocky helm to be the best item in the tier bc all of the things that can threaten it are physical moves that make contact.
    I have no problem with mons taking apart slower teams but the damage output coming off hoopa combined with its very good special bulk is too much for ou to handle. Because of a lack counters, Hoopa puts a lot of pressure on opposing players to threaten it offensively with uturns and strong physical stabs making it extremely limiting when team building. The singular nature of HoopaU's weakness makes it far to easy to fit on teams and has forced large metagame shifts in usage. Hoopa-u is too powerful a mon in the ou tier and should be banned
     
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  17. styler

    styler Pichu lover

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    So it got fixed then good will write the book soon then
     
  18. Holiano

    Holiano --

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    I think Hoopa-U is a big threat yes, it could be banned, yes. This mon really restrict the teambuilding. Not like Talonflamme who need just one check, but Hoopa need just two or three check, because of it's movepool just too huge. When we see a Hoopa-U, we can't really know what is he's moveset. He have like 17 moves who can be used. With an amazing typing pannel. He literally had 0 switch-ins safe. We need to scout like 2/3 turns to see what is he's moveset to found the good check in our team. When I see Hoopa-U I feel like if I see a Greninja in XY, I know who can beat him, but I don't know who can switch-in safely. But. With he's low speed, he can't really perforate a team unless it's a really slow team and he's easily RK yes, but we just have to sac a mon to RK it. So, I think Hoopa-U is too powerfull for the current OU and should be banned.
     
  19. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    These post are all about how powerful and strong it is in base stats. We get it its on steriods but no one noticed that it lacks recovery ? I mean look at some other mons I.E Kyruem-B is possibly worst than Hoopa -B due to mold breaker as well as it can take down OU's most spammed mons such as landrous -T and Rotom-W instantly AND it gets roost to get off some lost hp. Is that suspected? ofc not but hoopa-b is.
    And before you tell me..''OH they can wish pass to get back health '' at that point in time the hoopa-b can like die to any attack. '-'
     
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  20. Cameltoed

    Cameltoed Excadrill gira

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    what kind of bad argument lol
    even genesect, mega lucario, mega kangaskhan and aegislash lacked recovery but they were banned anyway
     
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  21. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    *cough cough* they were obv banned for different reasons '-'
    Genesect was probaby the best momentum user
    Kanga using 2 moves with double the effects happening was legit to OP for most mons to handle
    Aegi was like the based god
    Mega lucario had 0 switch ins
     
  22. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Your mistake in this sentence is assuming hoopa-U has one.
     
  23. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Mega Luc also takes up a mega spot, so at least you couldn't use it to blow up the opposing team and then sweep with a MegaZam or ZardX.
     
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  24. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    O ? dude since they changed hyperspace fury to physical even skarmory beats it 1vs1 with no attack ivs
    Same with mandibuzz can take it down with no attack ivs

    Skarmory Proof
    [OG]Terrie123 sent out Skarmory!
    Sweetness sucks tho sent out Hoopa-B!

    Start of turn 1
    Hoopa-B used Hyperspace Fury!
    The foe's Skarmory lost 45% of its health!
    Hoopa-B's Defense fell!
    Hoopa-B is hurt by its Life Orb!

    The foe's Skarmory used Stealth Rock!
    Pointed stones float in the air around Sweetness sucks tho's team!

    Start of turn 2
    Hoopa-B used Hyperspace Fury!
    The foe's Skarmory lost 47% of its health!
    Hoopa-B's Defense fell!
    The foe's Skarmory ate its Salac Berry!
    The Salac Berry raised the foe's Skarmory's Speed!
    Hoopa-B is hurt by its Life Orb!

    The foe's Skarmory used Brave Bird!
    Hoopa-B lost 241 HP! (80% of its health)
    Hoopa-B fainted!
    The foe's Skarmory is damaged by recoil!
    The foe's Skarmory fainted!''

    Mandibuzz proof

    [OG]Terrie123 sent out Mandibuzz!
    Sweetness2577 is watching the battle.
    Sweetness sucks tho sent out Hoopa-B!

    Start of turn 1
    The foe's Hoopa-B used Hyperspace Fury!
    It's not very effective...
    Mandibuzz lost 91 HP! (21% of its health)
    The foe's Hoopa-B's Defense fell!
    The foe's Hoopa-B is hurt by its Life Orb!

    Mandibuzz used U-turn!
    It's super effective!
    The foe's Hoopa-B lost 90% of its health!
    The foe's Hoopa-B fainted!
     
  25. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    And as we all know, hyperspace fury is hoopa-U's only attack it can ever use and does not have anything else in its move pool to launch at anything.

    252 SpA Hoopa Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 195-231 (58.3 - 69.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Oh wait. And before you try going "lol then chansey/blissey always wins," or something to that effect, then:

    0 Atk Life Orb Hoopa Drain Punch vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 281-333 (43.7 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO

    Throw any hazard in and they die, with hoopa at worst poisoned with all of its health restored. Seriously, even in your log the worst Hoopa does is trade and that's in very ideal conditions for Skarmory.

    Also why are you using 0 attack hyperspace fury...
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2015
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  26. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    I didnt use 0 attack hyperspace fury , Skarmory had 0 attack im just saying basic mons can beat hoopa-u in a 1vs1 which makes it weird for a ban/suspect
     
  27. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    Because mandibuzz rarely wants to run u-turn over Foul Play (other three slots are taken up by Roost/Defog/WW or Taunt). Those mons are in very ideal conditions. Also, who stays in on a Mandibuzz to click Hyperspace Fury?? If I clicked Outrage with Rayquaza whenever a Skarmory or Ferrothorn or w/e is in play then I'd probably lose my Rayquaza. You'd be pretty hard pressed to find a Pokemon where you can literally not think while playing it.
     
  28. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Whatever the fuck a "basic mon" is, being able to lose to other pokemon 1v1 is NOT a criterion for "don't ban". Genesect gets wrecked by Heatran 1v1 and depending on the set can get wrecked by Hippo, Lando-T, Ferrothorn, and scores of other Pokemon that are common in OU. Mega Mawile gets hard-walled by the same pokes, with its Sub-punch set allowing it to beat the steel types. Mega Gengar straight-up loses to Mega Zam, Mega Aero, and scarfed Latis. Even Mega Rayquaza, the monster that got banned from freaking Ubers will usually lose 1v1 to Cloyster, Mega Diancie (speed tie), Mega Salamence, and ScarfChomp, none of whom are bad pokemon.

    Also, posting battle logs is almost never needed in a cogent argument. Damage calculations are fine, but they should be support for the main argument, not the other way around.
     
    Haze Victory and Dominique-XLR like this.
  29. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    This is probably the most hilarious suspect discussion I've come across in PO.
    That salac berry Skarm.. :grin:

    max SpA neutral nature LO focus blast is a guaranteed 2hko on Mandibuzz after rocks. Specs set can even afford to run thunderbolt with modest nature. And that people, is the best answer stall has.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2015
  30. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Not to mention, that if this were the case, that'd be a solid reason to ban it from whatever tier it's in.

    I'm far from the best of OU (hell, I'm not even good tbh), but there's very little that can actually handle Hoopa-U. I used a SubSalac set on my team back when Hyperspace Fury was still a special move (I play sporadically), and it could demolish so fucking much just by itself. Aside from bulky Fairies, it had literally no switchins (because I was using Psyshock > Gunk Shot), and stall teams basically couldn't touch it as long as I wasn't stupid with my switching in.

    While it isn't completely immortal in the tier, because there are at least ways of playing around it, the thing simply adds way too much stress to a battle, i.e. one wrong move, and you're swept, and like several others have said, stall is all but inviable with it in the tier. While I've no complaints about this, being someone who's somewhat known for hating stall, it's fairly irrefutable evidence that it doesn't belong in OU.

    Based on that last wee point alone, I wouldn't miss Hoopa-U being banned from the tier. It's hella fun to use, but a nightmare to face. Ban, please.
     
  31. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    Looking at the usage stats for OU the two most common mons are sci or and landorus with landorus' most common set both as a lead and not is a scarf U-turn set with scizor also traditionally having a bug stab. If these checks to hoopa-U are that common then surely this offsets some of its advantages and highlights the problem of poor physical bulk?
     
  32. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    It does slightly. The reason I say slightly is that Hoopa can just as easily switch out into something which may take attacks from Scizor and Landorus, and switch back in when there is an opportunity. An amazing movepool combined with 160/170 attack stats means that you'll have a much harder time switching out of Hoopa, as almost nothing is safe switching into it. This is especially true of more offensive or balanced teams which may carry the two Pokemon you mentioned. Scizor also outslows meaning that if it switches into a Dark moves, it'll be 2HKO'd, unless it's Hyperspace Fury, in which case it may click Bullet Punch (Dark Pulse is better on mixed imo). Even if Scizor did not get outsped, both Scizor and Landorus-I (I'm assuming incarnate) cannot repeatedly switch in to Hoopa-B's attacks, as they'll be 2-3HKO'd. This makes them shaky, short-term checks at best and applicable only to non-Scarf sets, and thus ineffective at dealing with Hoopa-b.
     
  33. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    Landorus-T. Lando I has been banned a while back. Lando T has a hard time switching into specially offensive Hoopa and doesn't take kindly in switching into physical hoopa either unless running a bulky pivot set. In which case it needs to be running sufficient speed evs to outrun hoopa in the first place to make for a faster u-turn, in turn sacrificing much needed bulk.
    Hoopa-B has an amazing combination of offensive stats and neither offensive set, be it physical or special is any weaker than the other. Getting Hoopa in isn't something especially hard either as yes, while it has atrocious physical defense, it has just as amazing a Special defense and can rather easily make it's way into most neutral / resisted special attacks and immediately start threatening the opponents team. It isn't easy switching out of Hoopa either as it's moves gives it immense coverage and severely dents next to every mon in the tier for a truck load of damage upon switching in. This is no 50/50 argument of Hoopa using the right move either, as the few things that can actually switch into hoopa are outsped by it and then put to rest from it's coverage moves - Namely dark and fairy types. Clefable and Sylveon of the type.
    The lack of switchins along with fighting + dark coverage on 160/170 offensive stats, on a mon that can just as viably pull off a special set as it can pull off a physical one is enough reason for me to want it to leave. I feel Hoopa-u is indeed broken in this tier and while revenge killing it is rather easy, revenge killing is much easier accomplished on paper than in practicality and for the lack of revenge killers that can safely switch into it, am voting a BAN.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015
  34. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    ^just one note there, Haze. Hoopa-U has literally zero resists. One immunity to Psychic, but hey.
     
  35. greymatter1234

    greymatter1234 Trimmin' the tall grass.

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    Just nothing in OU and below can check Hoopa-U at the moment. Sure, things like Skarmory and Mandibuzz can take a hyperspace fury, but then the Hoopa user just clicks something else and watches it's 'checks' die. The fact that it can run mixed sets make stalling against it almost impossible. Even a good hyper offense team in the hands of a good hyper offense player won't get past Hoopa without sacking at least one mon, provided Hoopa is sent out before any set ups.
     
  36. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    That's a good point you bring up. A lack of physical bulk with the speed tier it is in pretty much always means Hoopa has to take a hit when against faster paced teams. Those seem to be the biggest factors keeping Hoopa as manageable as it is atm and I'd say it's only the bulkier teams that really struggle against it. Faster paced teams,more inclined towards hyper offense should have a much easier time against this but Hoopa can just as well be facing their special sweeper and pretty much get a guaranteed kill on the sweeper itself, or the mon that the opponent chooses to switch into.
    Your point was amazing though as you also had me realise up there that Hoopa-U is actually immune to Psyshock, pretty much the only special move that calculates damage based on one's physical defense, considering any mon not named Keldeo.
    Besides I tried out a specially offensive scarfer set on Hoopa the other day, and damn. This makes for an amazing revenge killer. It's absurd how many sets Hoopa can pull of magnificently with no set being weaker than the last, be it scarfer, Lo attacker, Sub + 3 attacks, and pulls off physical sets just as well as it pulls off it's special sets. Even a choiced set from this plays incredibly threatening, even after accounting for its low speed. I haven't tried one with a band, but a set on specs played for an amazing wallbreaker last I tried and I'd say is one of the best in the tier by far.
     
  37. Spoovo The Pirate

    Spoovo The Pirate Meep! Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    I see AssVest working well too, with that great special bulk and great natural power, plus access to Drain Punch to keep it healthy.
     
  38. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I can confirm that Assault Vest is an amazing set on Hoopa, be it physically or specially based. I prefer the latter, as it can actually switch into Lava Plume/Scald then without being crippled by a burn, but physical is amazing too with the recovery from Drain Punch. I also agree that Hoopa has horrendous physical bulk, but this is quite easily managed by having team mates to sponge those hits (lando-T and Rotom-w work really well, as they can take common priority and provide VoltTurn).
     
  39. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Everyone keeps mentioning hyperspace fury, but why use it at all when you have Knock Off? Everything you want to kill dies to knock off on the first hit or, just like hyperspace fury, kills in two. You can even splash knock off more easily on mixed sets or AV since you don't have to worry about your already bad defense getting crippled further. Allows you to destroy blobs(more easily) with drain punch, mandibuzz can't get 6% to help convert what are just barely 2HKOs into 3HKOs, and anything else really doesn't like Dark Pulse off of 170 special attack anyway if they can't handle hyperspace fury. Unless there's something very specific that can't take knock off--> another knock or move it seems like the superior option. And anyway, hoopa at full health(if the ideal condition ever arises) can live banded bullet punches where -1 would just be revenged by Scizor no matter what.

    Just because something has a move specific to itself doesn't mean you have to or should use it.
     
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  40. willdbeast

    willdbeast All round nice guy

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    But hyperspace fury sounds so cool! On a more serious note hyperspace fury can help with those annoying mons that protect in order to stall for recovery (I'm looking at you gliscor) if u don't have a coverage move to OHKO outright. Although the power is such you can just kill with stab next turn so it doesn't really matter what set you run which is what makes it so threatening.
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015
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