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Suspect Discussion - Yanmega (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Celestial Phantom, Sep 7, 2015.

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  1. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    [​IMG]

    (Credit for this lovely Yanmega goes to one, Celestial Phantom.)


    Discuss the possibility of banning Yanmega from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Yanmega as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

    [​IMG]
     
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  2. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Yanmega is a very versatile pokemon that has good base stats in LU: 116 spe atk with 95 speed is very good, coupled with the ability speed boost it becomes very hard to revenge kill since it's not weak to common priorities ( Mach Punch, Bullet punch, Sucker punch) and it has somehow a nice defensive bulk ( 86 hp and 86 defense is good for an offensive pokemon). Spe def is terrible on the other side but it makes it for all the other stats.

    I can think of 2 sets: Protect+3atk LO and Specs tinted lens. I guess scarf Tinted also works but is generally an inferior choice.

    The protect 3 atks is a fantastic cleaner, it is hard to stop the clean of Bug Buzz/Air Slash and Hp ground/Giga Drain and with Speed boost making it faster every turn, it becomes an absolute behemoth to check with pokemon like Jolteon.
    This set has some counters such as Registeel, Spe def Milotic and Goodra can check it nicely too:

    252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 248 HP / 120+ SpD Milotic: 148-177 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 52-62 (14.2 - 17%) -- possible 9HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Life Orb Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Goodra: 91-109 (23.8 - 28.6%) -- 96.6% chance to 4HKO
    Milotic can use Mirror Coat, Registeel can use Iron Head/Twave/Seismic toss and Goodra can ohko with fire blast/tbolt

    However, since this set is supposed to be a cleaner, most of its counters are already crippled or KO, making countering yanmega hard somehow.


    That is also a reason why the choice specs tinted lens exists and wallbreak very good the tier:

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Registeel: 120-144 (32.9 - 39.5%) -- 19.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aromatisse: 246-288 (60.5 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Yanmega Giga Drain vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Solid Rock Rhyperior: 603-711 (142.2 - 167.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 240 HP / 40 SpD Mega Steelix: 222-264 (63.2 - 75.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    and the list goes on.

    On paper, Yanmega might look not broken since Milotic can pretty much take all the sets if it's spe def and its weakness to Stealth rocks are one of the mains reasons it dropped to LU. However, Yanmega is a very solid mon that can wallbreak or clean, and with P2 leaving LU a lot of special threats rose and made LU hard to play. In my opinion, Yanmega should be banned
     
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  3. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    So yet another one of my pointless endeavors coming right up.

    I'd actually say Yanmega is less broken on actual experience than what might seem like in paper alone. Stealth rocks make it so that yanmega has limited switchin opportunity, and the wallbreaker set, while possess great power, is much easier to revenge kill.

    Let's talk about the Specs set first.

    First of all, I'm not sure timid is such a great idea, since you don't wanna be outsped by the likes of Hitmonlee, Porygon-Z, Meloetta etc. Even then the following remains true.

    Registeel commonly carries t-wave/toxic/protect or sleep/rest talk, so no Yanmega user will need a fare bit of luck to get past him; provided Registeel directly switches into specs bugbuzz.
    Typical Goodra sets handle him just fine.
    Golbat would be another counter to specs Yanmega
    Mega Audino can avoids 2hko after rocks without any sp def investment.
    Sp. Defensive jellicent is on the same boat, toxic + recover means Jelly will outlast Yanmega.
    These, along with Sp. Def Milotic are the most reliable answers stall has.

    For balance, barring the obvious ones who outspeed and kos; AV Slowking, AV Meloetta, Druddigon, Nidoqueen, Fetchlinder, Dragalage, AV/CB Metagross, Sub BU Braviary, Mega Camerupt, all can tank one hit and ko back in ideal scenario. (Ideal Scenario as in there's no stealth rocks on Yanmega's side, but there are rocks in the opposing side)

    Now, Specs Yanmega's job is to wallbreak, so it stands to reason that it is designed to trouble slower balance/stall with sheer power. This is true for every other wallbreaker that exists in LU. But as we can see from above, there are common mons in stall that can handle this specific set.


    Onto LO Speed Boost set.
    This set trades power and coverage for speed for speed. But this time the list of counters is even larger. It also has sever 4mss. Protect & Bug Buzz is a must. Then u have to pick 2 of giga drain/ancient power/air slash/hp ground.

    Stall pretty much doesn't care about this set. All of the things mentioned above hard checks/counters Yanmega.
    For offense it isn't as difficult to revenge kill as it's been made out to be. Mach punch isn't the only priority in the tier you know.

    Fletchling, M-Glailie, M-Obama, Zoroark all can swiftly KO Yanmega. The fact that it has to run protect to have any hope against offense means it can be easily taken advantage of by the vast majority of scarfers who outspeed him at +1 or get a free switchin.

    Compared to other similar mons in the tier, Yanmega neither possesses more power nor does it have better bulk. As a cleaner Sharpedo is arguably better, since its capable of going mixed and has better coverage overall. However there's a small number of pokemon that can get screwed up by guessing wrong set. Then again, at what stage of the battle Yanmega enters is an obvious indication itself. So Yanmega will hardley ever be able to feign wallbreaker set for cleaner and vice-versa.

    In LU hazards are pretty big deal. Good spinner/defoggers are scarce. Spinblockers fare better here more than any other tier. This is evident by the success of web teams. Being weak to rocks here is really bad news, and this is something that should not brushed if we are to understand how Yanmega fares in the tier.

    Overall I feel Yanmega is being somewhat oversold and somewhere we need to draw the line between a good mon and a broken mon.
     
  4. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    First off, Registeel is bad in general in the meta. It gives so many free turns to a lot of Pokemon, especially all these Ground types that use it for leverage. Not to mention the massive group of Fighting and Steel types that don't give a fuck about either status in certain cases, and use it for free hits regardless of being paralyzed. Pretty inferior to something like Mega Steelix who can tank and fire off hits back. For a defensive pokemon's job it can wall Yanmega, but you can't just slap it on a team and call it a success as long as it walls something specific.

    AV Goodra handles Yanmega fine I'll give that, but you kind of have to go AV, when there's so much more to Goodra than just AV, otherwise with even 1 hazard Specs BB can 2hko you. Goodra also lacks any good recovery with or without AV, so you can't use it to tank multiple hits from different Pokemon too much.

    Golbat is just bad, and it's just something you damage and run if you need to. It generally would have to use the turn after it switches in for a Roost turn anyway, so that's pretty damn predictable to use for a Psychic, Rock, or Set Up Attacker to come in, as a lot of the ones LU has does not fear Golbat really. Unless you have a massive Fighting + Grass weakness, Golbat is pretty outclassed by Gligar except in some situations. Also, for Golbat to not get 2hko'd by any potential prediction of Air Slash or AP, you have to go heavy into the Sp.Def which means you aren't going to be using the Defensive version which usually checks/counters your more common physical Fighting types that carry common Rock moves or something like that, which it lives even with them hitting super effective on you.

    Mega Audino: 252 SpA Choice Specs Tinted Lens Yanmega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Audino: 168-198 (40.9 - 48.2%) -- 64.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    That's not very likely to be in Audino's favor. Especially because you A) need to be Mega before you switch it in, or you let something die to get it in if you have it waiting on the bench, and B) your only way of healing is generally wish protect or rest and using sleep talk to keep an offensive. This doesn't look like a very strong answer there.

    Jellicent and Milotic HAVE to go full special defensive sets in order to avoid Yanmega 2hko'ing, especially for the Modest variants. Recover and Bug Buzz do have the same PP, so for the most part for several turns it'll just be a hit and recover until you are over about 90% again thing, pending no drops. Cool thing on these is that Hitmonlee or Gallade make for excellent partners to help handle all these above except Golbat and M-Audino, but Yanmega wins vs Mega Audino pretty much all the time. Since Jellicent/Milotic are forced into using Recovers, it's not hard to make a switch as you do an onslaught, and since they'll be highly weak to physical moves, Knock Off practically will kill Jellicent, and a strong enough STAB will send Milotic to the death, both have enough Sp.Def to tank any hit Goodra throws, except Draco Meteor, and well as long as Regi is just free hits for both really unless it's running Protect.

    None of these can switch in though. So, if all works and none of these have taken any prior damage, Yanmega has essentially killed 2 Pokemon on your team, since you can't get any of these in safely, and it outspeeds all of them except priority Fletch and fast AV melo. You don't keep Yanmega in on any Fletch or Braviary though, same for Camel and there are options to check all 3 quite easily. But since all these lack any formal recovery outside Slowking, a Yanmega has essentially killed a third of your team with ease. Especially exploiting your supposed "bulky special answer" to it.

    Speed Boost Yanmega is a bit of a disappointment when staring down anything bulky, which the tier has many Pokemon archetypes of, so I'd say it's the weaker set, unless you use a slow baton pass user to ramp up it's power (like Togetic). It doesn't have a hard choice in choosing 4 moves to run either. Protect + Bug Buzz are the standards, Air Slash is the secondary stab, and with the amount of fighting/neutral coverage it gives, it's generally first choice of move 3, and then since you want to hit the fire types for super effective generally Ancient Power is a strong contender for move 4. Giga Drain is the other contender for move 4 as it'll help you beat a weakened Rhyperior or keep you in the game vs Milotic, Jellicent, and OHKO Seismitoad. HP Ground literally is, "Do I want to beat Magneton?" Outside Fletch, the other 3 don't exactly "take it down quickly".

    252 Atk Mega Glalie Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 140-168 (44.7 - 53.6%) -- 31.3% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 152-180 (48.5 - 57.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
    252+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 168-198 (53.6 - 63.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after hail damage
    4+ Atk Mega Abomasnow Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 138-164 (44 - 52.3%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO after hail damage
    252+ Atk Life Orb Zoroark Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Yanmega: 183-216 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Unless I'm building entirely around LO Speed Boost Yanmega to boost it's stats through Baton Pass or pass around Toxic Status to give it a hand, I don't really see much of a reason to use it when I could just go Modest Specs Yanmega and fairly easily destroy teams without much effort if I have one hazard on the field to help me out, especially potent in the mid-game when most members of a team have taken damage, leaving many Pokemon in general kill range of Specs BB.

    Bud, we just banned Froslass and Doublade left the tier naturally. Most ghosts are of average use (I guess you can find a way to use Spiritomb or offensively Mega Banette), but Spinning is now a thing again on Hitmonlee, and Hitmontop has always been fairly good at that job. Gligar is the best defog user to have, and while not that great but actually getting more ability to be used in a useful fashion is Defog Flygon. Golbat and Togetic are both usable in this role, (but golbat for the most part is bad) not great, but average now, though beware the Metagross and Cloyster drops. Yet to really be seen in these uses are Kabutops as a spinner and Shiftry as a Defog user who have kind of have an appeal since they do good against half the tier, but can be faulted against the other half.

    But so far we have established:

    - Registeel despite being an overall bad Pokemon to consider using against almost the entirety of LU, can sufficiently counter Yanmega.
    - There are some solid answer to Timid Specs Yanmega in Goodra, Jellicent, and Milotic, but they would be stretch answers to a Modest one.
    - Golbat is generally bad, but if you have nothing to lose and you can fill the slot with a random Defog user and Anti-Yanmega answer, go ahead with it.
    - There are Pokemon that realistically can win 1 on 1's if you keep them healthy, though there are checks to the checks of Yanmega that are hella common, and can be used to get weaken their HP, except Nidoqueen, there is only like 3-4 solid answers to her without taking a large hit, unless you are in 1 on 1's to beat her.
    - Unless your team is weak to any relevant offensive team, you shouldn't really be using LO Yanmega unless you are Baton Passing Nasty Plot boosts with something slow.
    - Hazard removal has gotten better with no Froslass or Doublade being a bitch to Hitmonlee and Hitmontop, as well as Defog being servicable on several things.
     
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  5. Dominique-XLR

    Dominique-XLR I'm a simple man. I see boobs, I like.

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    Thanks for your nice analysis CP. However there's few issues that I have not been able to clarify in my previous post; so I'll try and address those.

    When I brought up Registeel/Golbat I was talking about stall teams, which I mentioned as well. From what I understand, the notion 'this mon is bad' doesn't quite work on stall teams. If something fills up the gaps in your team, there's hardly any reason not to. Registeel has much better special bulk that Mega Steelix, has lefties, t-wave, doesn't take up mega slot(which I know isn't a big deal in LU, but still) and overall a much better answer to stuff like Meloetta. Golbat is a nice answer to stuff like Virizion, Dragalage, Chesnaught, Pangoro, Scrafty, Venomoth etc etc. If I have 5 mons and need an answer to these specific bunch, why wouldn't I use him? Togetic is another one which I didn't mention before, but works in the same way as Golbat.

    About Goodra, I seriously don't know what else Goodra has outside of AV. Specs? Outclassed by Dragalage. Band? Outclassed by Druddigon. Lefties is essentially exchanging small physical bulk over time for 50% boost to special defense. Like Carl said, Metagame is filled with strong special attackers, and it only makes it even more reasonable to run AV Goodra. Can he be worn down? of course. But here's the thing. If Goodra is in a more defensive team, he will almost certainly be paired with a wish passer. If he's in a more offensive team, then Yanmega won't get the chance to come more than twice; rocks or no rocks. So I still don't see him getting past Goodra anytime soon.

    On to the hazard issue. Somehow Flygon totally flew(pun!) over my radar, and it's true that with Lass gone, it pretty much gets a free pass. So yes, defog has certainly gotten better. But rapid spinners are still pretty much the same, and if your team has any hazard other than stealth rock, you will have to resort to rapid spin. Top is passive, can't really beat any of the ghosts, gets taunted by Jelly/Bannette, and cant really spin reliably on shuckle either because of encore. Lee on the other hand kind of suffers from 4mss, and screwed nine ways to sundays by sticky web. and handily beaten by Spiritomb. Rest are way worse so I won't go into that. In any case, even if you are pairing Yanmega 100% of the time with Flygon, it's a significant amount of support that Yanmega absolutely needs, and creates a bit of opportunity cost for webs/spike stacking teams. You can downplay the rocks weakness as much as you like, but it's an issue that can't be utterly denied.

    Now here's the most controversial part of my post. We have pretty much established that Specs Yanmega has few true counters. However, if you compare Yanmega with the tiers all other wallbreakers, you will find out that its the same for pretty much all of them. For example, what counter does Dragalage have? What counter does Exploud have? How do you defensively counter Pangoro? What can avoid 2hko Choice band Mold Breaker Sawk? Or a CB Durant?It seems to me thats how wallbreakers are supposed to work. Now if we were to consider available counterplay, Yanmega is as bad against offense as any one of them. He makes zero contribution defensively, and as frail as any one of them. He hasn't got any utility either. His speed is not good enough against offense, and just gets worse if you are running modest (which is actually necessary against stuff like Escavalier and Bronzong).
    'X mon doesn't have y number of highly viable hard counters so we should ban it' is not a realistic argument imo, and one that I feel should be reconsidered.

    On a side note, It's also kind off weird that Venomoth combines both Yanmega sets in one and downright sweep teams.
     
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  6. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Because one or two Pokemon in a metagame where they are overall bad against literally everything else, isn't really a solid argument if they can just counter/check one thing. Also Golbat can't exactly be answer to all of those at once. You need the Sp.def version to at least tank specs Dragalge, but if you go that way, SD Virizion will have it's way with you, and Pangoro well Pangoro with Knock Off is just going to mess around with Golbat's trying to switch in unless you invest around 100 speed EVs minimum with neutral speed nature to be an answer. Scrafty is kind of outclassed in the meta itself, again would need the Defensive one to successfully work against most of it's sets. Any well played of these Mons actually doesn't get answered by Golbat unless you're double switching into them too. Also while Registeel gets something like Thunder Wave, Toxic is the better option because of the fact that Nidoqueen is all over, Rhyperior, Flygon, Jolteon, Rotom-C, Heliolisk, Magneton, Xatu actually isn't bad to use either, also various Lum optional Pokemon if you come in to try to mess them up on a set up can be pretty hazardous, same for the many various Substitute Pokemon. Also overall stall is not that great, especially with the way the tier currently is, it's just not as solid as an answer.

    Curse Goodra is a set that isn't AV, also Goodra has something the other two don't have that would actually allow it to function better, which is speed. A large difference in speed, which in Pokemon makes a hell of a difference when running those types of sets. If you haven't ever used Curse Goodra, it's fairly great, thanks to Sap Sipper completely making any Grass types you fight unusable, and it's fully functional with Rest because it has the bulk to combine it. It's one of those that doesn't need offensive investments to work, just give it the HP and Special bulk, and watch as it puts in the work. We have 3 technically 4 usable Wish Passers, but Togetic's HP passing is just not justifiable for me to count it often. And the thing is, all 3 lose to Yanmega, and are taking huge hits. Though if you were to try Wish Passing can't do it against Yanmega, otherwise you just put your Wisher in danger for the rest of the game, so I'll take it you don't, but you generally wouldn't switch Yanmega into them really either. I really don't like the just supply it with a wish passer argument, then that just makes it sound like any AV user can be used as a Check/Counter just vs whatever they are good enough to withstand either, as I've seen people try to use that as an argument before, and it's not a good one. Maybe decent because it is Goodra, but not one I'm willing to take often.

    Hitmontop outspeeds both though, so you have to put even more extra into Jellicent to outspeed for Taunt to work there. Mega Banette would need to already be Mega or be the standard Protect one so you can at least avoid it and Taunt if you switch in on a Rapid Spin, or at least run some speed. Though since you usually have to switch the ghosts in on the Spin user, and if the Spin user also happens to be a Foresight user, it just generates a lot of 50/50s. Are they spinning, are they using Foresight? Do I switch and risk losing hazards if it is Foresight, do I take the attempt and hope they overpredict? It is all relative to what's going on in the game, but depending on what's on what, it just comes down to who predicts right, and the situation of the match. Also, Top can Toxic things to help wear them down, in case a player doesn't want to risk 50/50 plays on whether to use Foresight or Spin while a ghost lives. Can hamper what's on the field, or you switching in your ghost. Lee: HJK, Knock Off, Mach Punch, Rapid Spin / Stone Edge. If you go Stone Edge you generally try to fit something else to deal with hazards, but if you pair Lee with something excessively weak to hazards and don't use something for removal, then there's no point in using it and Lee together if Lee itself doesn't carry Rapid Spin. I won't lie that Stealth Rock does exist, though when you only need 1 switch in at times unless you have an uber counter to it, you can find yourself in bad water a lot just from the sheer lack of good resistances to it's main typing that are at least conventional and good to use.

    To be honest, I think without P2, Dragalge might be somewhat broken itself. Though we have solid Steel types like Mega Steelix, Magneton, Escavalier, Metagross, and if you want to bring up Registeel, that's one as well, and I'd put this one slightly up on Regi but semi bad itself really but Bronzong. Jellicent can act as a check to the slower ones where people think they shouldn't invest in speed, though that's stupid since it'd let you beat Jellicent since it wouldn't be able to recover, and your -2 would actually kill it if it has to switch in, same line of thinking with Alomomola and using Regenerator as needed. Though a lot of play around it comes from the fact there exists immunities and resistances to it's main boom or bust STABs and that it takes a bad stat drop on having to rely on Draco Meteor.

    Exploud arguably wouldn't have one, but it's literally boom or busting on Boomburst in matches, and there are many solid Steel answers to it. As well unlike Dragalge, whose speed is worse, it doesn't have the great defensive typing to work with to live, and the fact Exploud is realistically very slow means that on Balanced or HO style teams, it's not hard to deal damage. Hell unless it comes in on something Defensive (which most defensive things are 2hko'd by it) it's taking some form of hit. Exploud literally relies on 1 on 1's to be exploitable, since you can't switch out, but if it's not OHKO'ing you, you are do a sufficient amount of damage to it.

    Pangoro is something else that arguably I'd say falls in line with Dragalge, in the potential of being broken and would also be something that can be looked at. SD is going to destroy slow teams regardless of if they are stall or not, as long as Gunk Shot can hit the fairies, and it has decent enough bulk, that if it takes a hit, if you can hit your target with Drain Punch, it gets some of that back. If I have to say, how do you switch into Pangoro? Hitmontop or Qwilfish both do it every time. A lot of others rely on being faster than it, which there are actually sufficient Pokemon do to this, but SD it a danger to literally every slow based team, and I can actually see wanting to suspect this, just some Pokemon exist that currently do more damage than it can (a lot of it relies on the SD set getting up, otherwise you just roll Scarf/Banded and hope you do damage). Only reason I believe we haven't actually taken a genuine look at it is because so many things are offensive, you don't actually see slow and bulky teams to get destroyed by this Pokemon.

    Also Sawk, Fairies exist, Flying and Ghost types to resist Fight STAB, basically boom to bust on locking yourself into a good spam move that won't have a negative impact on you playing. Same applies for Durant, especially because so many bulky waters can wall it if it locks itself into the wrong move.

    The things that Yanmega has? Decent enough movepool to get its job done, TINTED LENS so it doesn't care about resistances unless they are 4x resistances from the likes of Moltres, Golbat, Togetic on tanking a Bug Buzz, and if that's what you go to lock yourself into, literally need the 4x resistances and knowing that a 4x resistant move is coming your way to tell Yanmega to buzz off, otherwise it can deal sufficient damage thanks to just 2x resistance. Also 95 base Speed is pretty damn great, especially considering we only have a small handful of base 100s or above. Neutral base 95 hits 289, so there's a small handful of of things that would outspeed me by going Modest. Really it comes down to preference, I like having Modest because it lets me beat the bulky stuff that my cleaners that I'd use for the things that outspeed Yanmega at base 100 and higher and the positive base 90s people may use would get in the way of. I mean I really have yet to see a reason that Yanmega is perfectly and acceptably healthy for the tier when it's not having a hell of a lot of problems nuking stuff, unless you fight bad teams, which unfortunately I run into...a lot.

    A) GOODRA WITH DRAGON TAIL AND SAP SIPPER. B) Was waiting for UUTL's to actually decide whether they were going to both with doing something or not, because otherwise there wouldn't be too much time if they started something up to do something regarding it, and throwing 3 suspects up is a bit ludicrous for people to actually decide around since some might conflict with opinions on something else if the others end up banned. So, we just went the two to start off that have no dependency on each other and can just be called pretty unhealthy for the tier at the moment. Though last I checked they were going to actually do something on it, if they don't within the next few days, when we wrap these two up, we can get ahead with those. Also, Venomoth relies on a lot more than Yanmega with current Pokemon allowed in the tier, and setting up. Gotta get those turns in to set up, which isn't too hard, but it varies. That should be sufficient enough for answers.
     
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  7. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    So, it has been 2 weeks, we had a little bit of a discussion on Dinosaur Mosquito Ogre. Yanmega is quite like many other like minded Wallbreakers now that a few of the more offensive and bulkier things left (Doublade, Shaymin, Porygon2), which leaves a bit of a void, and leaves many Pokemon to rush towards the top of the mountain to be extremely good in the current metagame. Yanmega is one of those Pokemon, that makes for an amazing wallbreaker, though it does have its own flaws. Stealth Rocks are a cause for concern, and like others with a 4x weakness you have to have a spinner or Defog user, but without Doublade or Froslass in the tier any longer, those support types have gotten way better to use, and most other ghosts are average at best if you use them for spinblocking. As well there's not too many fast Taunt users who would want to go 1 on 1 with Defog users like Gligar or Flygon because of normal weaknesses to Ground type moves. With that, Yanmega have a lot of good support behind it to do it's job effectively in offensive based teams, has a large enough Special Attack stat, and movepool to choose to deal with any potential check that comes it's way despite only a minor 4mss to it, as well as good speed, and enough physical bulk to take more hits than your average non-steel bug dual type. We won't lie that it does have it's stops in the form of some Pokemon like Registeel or Golbat who can be dedicated to the cause....but both of them are very subpar options against the rest of the Metagame, and that pops up the problem that, Yanmega realistically is kind of too good to cover with subpar threats when you need to use better Pokemon to cover most of the other wallbreakers who have more common resistances to their attacks, when these types of Pokmeon (Registeel/Golbat, and other niche types), is just not a healthy aspect when it comes to having to teambuild in LU if it is allowed to still be around. For that reason Yanmega will be Banned from the ORAS LU tier.
     
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