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[ORAS] ORAS OU Viability Rankings (Take 2)

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Funbot28, Oct 11, 2015.

Moderators: Isa, sulcata
  1. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Approved by @MetalGross

    [​IMG]

    Hello PO! Welcome to the newly updated ORAS OU Viability Rankings. In this thread, we as a community will rank every single usable Pokemon into "tiers." You're encouraged to post your thoughts and opinions on the various Pokemon that are usable in OU and what tier they should fall under. Posts in this thread will be taken into account when deciding rank changes.

    Ranking Council:
    @Funbot28
    @Finchinator
    @OUAzumarill
    @Purpleseamonkey
    @TraceofLife
    @Zamrock

    (In alphabetical order)

    S Rank: S Rank is reserved for Pokemon who are extremely threatening and impact the metagame in a major way. These Pokemon can either fulfill a variety of roles or are superlative in performing one task on a team.

    [​IMG] Clefable[​IMG] Sableye (Mega)[​IMG] Tornadus-T

    ---

    A Rank: A Rank Pokemon are the bread-and-butter of the tier, usually filling most roles in a team in the most efficient way the tier can offer. They will easily fit into a team and often define the style of play. They are not as overwhelming a presence as S Rank Pokemon but will almost always perform well.

    A+
    [​IMG]Alakazam (Mega)[​IMG] Azumarill[​IMG] Bisharp[​IMG] Charizard (Mega X)[​IMG] Diancie (Mega)
    [​IMG] Ferrothorn[​IMG] Garchomp[​IMG] Gardevoir (Mega)[​IMG] Heatran[​IMG] Keldeo
    [​IMG] Landorus-T[​IMG] Latios[​IMG] Lopunny (Mega)[​IMG] Manaphy[​IMG] Metagross (Mega)
    [​IMG] Scizor (Mega)[​IMG] Talonflame[​IMG] Thundurus[​IMG] Tyranitar[​IMG] Volcanion
    [​IMG] Weavile
    A
    [​IMG] Altaria (Mega)[​IMG] Charizard (Mega Y)[​IMG] Excadrill[​IMG]Gengar[​IMG] Gliscor
    [​IMG] Gyarados (Mega)[​IMG]Hippowdon[​IMG] Klefki[​IMG] Kyurem-B[​IMG] Manectric (Mega)
    [​IMG]Medicham (Mega)[​IMG] Raikou[​IMG] Rotom-W[​IMG] Skarmory[​IMG] Serperior
    [​IMG] Slowbro[​IMG] Starmie[​IMG] Venusaur (Mega)
    A-
    [​IMG] Aerodactyl (Mega)[​IMG] Alakazam[​IMG] Breloom[​IMG] Gyarados[​IMG] Jirachi[​IMG] Magnezone
    [​IMG]Mew[​IMG] Pinsir (Mega)[​IMG] Politoed[​IMG] Quagsire[​IMG] Slowbro (Mega)[​IMG] Volcarona
    B Rank: B Rank Pokemon are less easily able to slot into a team as A Rank Pokemon, but are still able to fill a role well and be a presence in the right team. Pokemon which may be slightly outperformed by higher ranks but nonetheless still fit well, and Pokemon which have a threatening but small niche may be in this rank.

    B+
    [​IMG] Amoonguss[​IMG] Diggersby[​IMG] Dragonite[​IMG]Feraligatr[​IMG] Gallade (Mega)
    [​IMG] Heracross (Mega)[​IMG] Kabutops[​IMG] Kingdra[​IMG]Latias[​IMG] Latias (Mega)
    [​IMG] Mamoswine[​IMG] Scizor[​IMG] Suicune[​IMG] Swampert (Mega)[​IMG] Terrakion
    [​IMG] Togekiss[​IMG] Victini[​IMG] Zapdos
    B
    [​IMG] Beedrill (Mega)[​IMG] Chansey[​IMG] Crawdaunt[​IMG] Dragalge[​IMG] Empoleon
    [​IMG] Garchomp (Mega)[​IMG] Gastrodon[​IMG] Hawlucha[​IMG] Hydreigon[​IMG] Omastar
    [​IMG] Reuniclus[​IMG] Sharpedo (Mega)[​IMG] Slowking[​IMG] Tangrowth[​IMG] Tyranitar (Mega)
    [​IMG] Tyrantrum
    B-
    [​IMG] Azelf[​IMG] Celebi[​IMG] Chesnaught[​IMG] Lucario
    [​IMG] Magneton[​IMG] Mandibuzz[​IMG] Pidgeot (Mega)[​IMG] Sceptile (Mega)
    [​IMG] Sylveon[​IMG]Tentacruel[​IMG] Thundurus-T[​IMG]Toxicroak
    C Rank: C Rank Pokemon have notable niches in the metagame, but usually require significant support. These Pokemon face competition for their roles from the higher ranked Pokemon but can find still find use.

    C+
    [​IMG] Alomomola[​IMG] Ampharos (Mega)[​IMG] Blastoise (Mega)[​IMG] Bronzong[​IMG] Cobalion
    [​IMG] Conkeldurr[​IMG] Entei[​IMG]Gorebyss[​IMG]Heracross[​IMG] Hoopa
    [​IMG] Houndoom (Mega)[​IMG]Infernape[​IMG]Kyurem[​IMG] Metagross[​IMG] Nidoking
    [​IMG] Rhyperior[​IMG]Scolipede[​IMG] Seismitoad[​IMG] Staraptor
    C
    [​IMG] Absol (Mega)[​IMG] Banette (Mega)[​IMG] Cofagrigus[​IMG] Dugtrio[​IMG] Goodra
    [​IMG] Gourgeist-XL[​IMG]Krookodile[​IMG] Latios (Mega)[​IMG] Porygon2[​IMG]Rotom-H
    [​IMG] Shuckle[​IMG] Venusaur[​IMG] Whimsicott
    C-

    [​IMG] Aggron (Mega)[​IMG] Camerupt (Mega)[​IMG] Cloyster[​IMG] Cresselia
    [​IMG] Forretress[​IMG] Froslass[​IMG] Nidoqueen[​IMG] Roserade
    [​IMG] Salamence[​IMG] Shaymin[​IMG] Smeargle[​IMG] Zygarde
    D Rank: D Rank Pokemon either have an extremely small niche in the tier or are generally outclassed by higher-ranked Pokemon in a majority of circumstances.
    [​IMG] Blissey[​IMG] Chandelure[​IMG] Crobat[​IMG] Emboar
    [​IMG] Haxorus[​IMG] Honchkrow[​IMG] Jellicent[​IMG] Meloetta
    [​IMG] Mienshao[​IMG] Pangoro[​IMG] Sableye[​IMG] Shedinja

    Blacklist: A special ranking for the pokemon that are widely believed to be viable or see fair usage, but aren't actually viable, nor practical to use due to being entirely obsoleted, plain bad, or a variety of other reasons.
    • Mega Latios
    Feel free to discuss away. Send your own nominations on what you think should rise, fall or be added to the list :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2016
    Joyverse likes this.
  2. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    The changelist is too long for me to write, right now there isn't any current discussion topics, so anything goes for now.

    Also, @Aurist, can you make this look pretty?
     
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  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Is that what you meant by pretty? Also, done then. I honestly don't know what's going on with the table format under the A+ and why there is that weird split. Nothing looks wrong in the formatting, so maybe someone can point out if i added something/spacing is off I don't know. As well I have no idea what's going on at the bottom if you hit edit with all the TRs and stuff, so if you want to edit stuff, I guess I would just ignore that?? I don't know why it did that, but it showed up after I hit save. Aurist is trying to fix the few mistakes I guess I had, but otherwise, I'll talk changes later.
     
  4. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Fixed the small mistakes CP made, CP did the bulk of the work :+]

    PS Gothitelle in B is silly imo! But gud list.
     
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  5. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Great list, particularly happy with the sorely needed addition of Tyrantrum (that thing is just a monster).

    Some things I disagree with and/or would like clarified:

    Mega Garde: I'd argue that she is still A+ material. With its obligatory STABs and any combination of Focus Blast, Shadow Ball, HP Fire, Thunderbolt, and Energy Ball, it has pretty much zero counters, with by far its best answers being specially defensive Hippo/Gliscor, Klefki, or AV Torn-T. Its base 100 speed and eh defense make it somewhat susceptible to more offensive pokes and priority, but the fact is that its job is to be a wallbreaker with the possibility of sweeping only being icing on the cake. It can also run a surprising number of gimmicky moves such as Encore, WoW, TWave, Sub, Hypnosis, DBond, and CM to catch potential checks off guard.

    Dragalge: This thing is a great pokemon, but B+ seems a little bit high. I'm more looking for an explanation than actually disputing it.

    Scizor: Why isn't this thing higher? It fulfills all the same sets as its mega form, but has the crucial advantages of being able to use items and leave your Mega slot open. I would argue that it deserves as high as A or A+, but I wouldn't be opposed to a rise of any kind.

    Mega Latios: Just for clarification, is it blacklisted or C? I personally would argue it deserves blacklisting.

    Blissey: Blacklist. There is almost zero reason to use it over Chansey, and even Chansey is constantly finding itself outperformed by other less passive Pokemon. The tiny tiny niche that it has over Chansey (basically being a Chansey that can deal with Gothitelle) is heavily outdone by other Pokemon like Clefable, Sylveon, Umbreon, ect.

    Speaking of the blacklist, I believe the following Pokemon are used enough that they at least deserve a spot there if not higher:
    Espeon
    Umbreon
    Ninetales
    Abomasnow (Mega and base)
    Mega Audino
    Mega Steelix
    Ditto
    Swampert (Base)
    Yanmega
    Registeel
    Galvantula
     
  6. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I will definetly be looking into these noms, especially Abomasnow (and it's Mega), Espeon, Ditto and Swampert.

    I was thinking, what are people's opinion on moving Garchomp to S? No one can deny that TankChomp is used everywhere, while it still has the diversity and splashability to run other sets like LeadChomp and SD Chomp, which is honestly comparible to Clefable imo.
     
  7. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Gothitelle for A+/S: how is this even in B lol, anyway, Goth can trap whatever it needs to trap ( Chansey, Manaphy, Gardevoir etc etc) and Trick/Thunder wave them to allow your team to get rid of what it needs. Goth stall is very broken since Goth can trick manaphy a Choice Scarf and prevent it from sweeping because of Chansey. It can also trap pokemon such as Mega Heracross, Ferrothorn and I pass. It's viability is really huge in the current metagame, and it's a force to be reckon with with it's ability. I think people can explain it better than me, but yeah, this thing should raise :v
     
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  8. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    I mean I won't deny that Goth isn't good, it is practically one of the best stall mons in the tier besides Mega Sabeleye. But I honestly can't see it going S or even A+ imo. Although ST is annoying on it's own, trapping stuff, but Goth still needs a bit of support to be effective. It really needs teammates to get rid of Dark and Steel types, as most of the time, it only runs STAB Psychic/Psyshock. Meaning members like Clefable or Magnezone/Magneton to deal with these threats. Maybe can bump it to B+/A-, but can't see it go past that.
     
  9. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I would definitely support Goth going up, although I think A- is fine. It's the best Pokemon in the game at what it does (except Mega Gengar) and extremely versatile. The problem with it though is that while it excels on Full Stall and HO, I've found it to be pretty underwhelming on anything besides those two extremes. There's also the fact that it doesn't synergize too well with OU's best sweepers, making it an awkward wallbreaker. And finally, with stuff like Mandibuzz, TankChomp, Sylveon, Skarmory, Rotom, Heatran, and Torn-T becoming more and more popular as walls/pivots, Goth's targets are smaller in number than one would hope.

    I would also support Garchomp at S. It can and does do so much and it does all of it so well, sometimes even edging out over serious competition.
     
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  10. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    Serperior for A/A+. Good speed, Glare to use in your cheks, as Tornadus-T, Talonflame, Heatran and Mega Venusaur, amazing end game Sweeper with Contrary + Leaf Storm, access to Taunt. Decent coverage, moves Grass, Dragon and Hidden Power Fire/Ground/Ice/Rock. Knock Off, but no one uses it.

    Garchomp could go to S. Tank, Offensive Lead, Scarf, all good options to use.

    Gothitelle in B? Maybe B-an. imo

    I agree with @OUAzumarill on Mega Gardevoir be A +. Hyper Voice Pixilate is really a brutal move and still ignores Substitute. Psyshock to hit strong special walls. And 2 moves almost always unexpected: Focus Blast, Taunt, Hidden Power Fire / Ground, Substitute, Will-O-Wisp, Calm Mind, Thunderbolt, Energy Ball, Thunder Wave, Shadow Ball, Thunder Wave, Destiny Bond, Encore and others.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2015
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  11. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    [​IMG]
    Mega Alakazam A+ > A
    Yes I know this is a monster, huge Speed and Sp. Atk, excellent movepool with STAB Psychic/Psyshock, Shadow Ball, Focus Blast, Dazzling Gleam, Energy Ball, Hidden Power Ice / Fire, Encore, Protect, Substitute, Calm Mind and anothers.
    However, can not KO all the tier, is easily knocked down by priority moves, or a bulky Pokémon to resist any moves and has a physical attack or super effective. Finally, Trace is circumstantial and it is not always useful, even against teams Rain is interesting, and other cases.
    Yes, it's really hard to make a switch in Mega Alakazam but I believe that A is good for him.

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-W A- > A
    This annoying Pokémon only A-? One of the best pivot of the game, good defense, Talonflame counter, common chek Azumarill, Tornadus-T, Heatran, Slowbro, Scizor, Mamoswine, Mega Swampert, Starmie and many others, sometimes even Keldeo and Weavile. It is among the most used in the Tier since XY. The combination of Volt Switch with Will-O-Wisp and Hydro Pump makes it very unpredicable and difficult to handle. Pain Split, Thunder Wave (lure LatiTwin) or even a set Choice.
    This Pokémon is very flexible and it is often the best "glue" for a lot of teams.
    I think A- is little for him.

    [​IMG]
    Zapdos B > B + / A-
    A great wall, Pressure is perfect against users of Stealth Rock as Skamory and Ferrothorn, cutting in half the use of moving and using Defog safe. Moreover, it is an excellent counter to Tornadus-T and Mega Pinsir, Azumarill chek and can be a pivot with Volt Switch and decent coverage with Heat Wave / Hidden Power Ice even as a defensive Pokémon.
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2015
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  12. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Guess will reply to some noms:

    [​IMG] A to A+:
    I was thinking of keeping it at A+ when I was making the list, bu then I realized that 100 Speed really does not cut it for such an offensive meta there is right now. Gengar, Weavile, Tornadus-T, Garchomp and Mega Diancie are all threats that outspeed it and give it problems. Its low 65 Defense also really does not help it take any physical attacks, even if they are neutral. Mega Gard is a amazing mon versus Stall and Balance, but against offense, it just really struggles a lot. Keep A

    [​IMG] A+ to A:
    I moved Mega Zam up due to the fact that it is amazing vs offense unlike Gardevoir. 150 Speed with 175 Sp.Atk is just insane, coupled with good coverage moves like Focus Blast and Shadow Ball. Trace is also viable as it can copy abilities like Sand Rush and Flash Fire to really screw up some mons. Priority is a problem, but it still makes other mons like Weavile and Gengar to be really good. I say Keep A+.

    [​IMG] A- to A:
    Really the only reason I see Rotom-W falling is because the release of Contrary Serperior and other grass types in Celebi and Mega Venausuar increasing in popularity. Also lack of immediate recovery coupled with low 5o HP means it will not be taking hits for too long. Keep A-.

    [​IMG] B to B+/A-:
    Tbh, I've tried using Zapdos, but it really doesn't pull through that much. It has recovery and Defog, but Electric/Flying makes it weak to stuff like Rock and Ice, which are common offensive types. I find Raikou and Mega Manectric to be better electrics really, even though they are more offensive. Flying Spam has also decreased significantly in usage, so I think B is fine.

    Forgot to move Serp, rising it to A
     
  13. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Just saying, Mega Gardevoir gets a kill everytime it's in vs offense, it's the best stallbreaker of OU atm and it pixilate Hyper Voice hits through subs. It can also run Wisp or Dbond if your team needs it. Tornadus-T can in no way counter mega garde unless it runs Iron Tail ( lol iron tail ). It really deserves A+

    Agreed on Mega zam

    Rotom will most of the time use volt switch, and tornadus-t is a very very good partner to it since they form a volt turn core, with torn taking care of grass mons. Pain split and rest are more than viable and rotom-w is one of the best pivot and wisp spreader of OU, I do believe it deserves A

    Zapdos is so underated yet very good. Pressure allows it to win vs SR users ( ferro, Bulky chomp if it packs HP ice) and it checks many flying mon ( Torn-T, Landorus-T for exemple). I don't know what set you tested but it's defenitely A/A- tier. Comparing it to Raikou and Mega Manectric is silly because both of them are Volt switcher ( or sub cm depends) whereas Zapdos is a defogger
     
  14. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Sorry for double posting but I see a lot of weird stuff:

    -Conkeldurr in C+ tier seems very low to me, it's one of the best Guts abuser and switch in with AV to Rotom-W and status spreader in general. It has a fantastic attack, access to Knock Off,ice Punch and Poison Jab to get rid if its counter ( Gengar, Gliscor, Clefable). I think it could go up to B, it's still good in the meta, and require a little support. Sure tank chomp and Talonflame makes it job harder but it's still a good mon.

    - Dugtrio deserves more than C: It's very viable in stall ( Talonflame, Mega sableye, Togekiss, Shedinja, Seismited and duggy) and it also works well in some balanced teams that need to get rid of ttar/heatran, move it to B imo because it's a very good mon
     
  15. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    my biggest issue with rotomw is that it is so easy to pressure when i compare it to other pivots. to be honest i think its a mon that compresses a lot of checks together (which is by no means a bad thing) but it does that job kinda poorly. pain split is shitty recovery and doesnt rly work out that well in practice cuz rotomw usually ends up wittling the opponents hp w/ wisp anyway and as a result recovers back less hp. when i look at the a rank i see mons which fulfill more than one niche in the game. for example, latias has defog+roost+nice typing which lets it pivot vs stuff like keld/zard y/electrics (reliably, unlike rotomw) and yet it can still do a decent amount of damage w/ dmeteor and support the team with twave/hw. u'll see that each mon there provides at least two niches to the team, and does it v well and reliably. rotomw cant even check its own shit reliably, think cb azu/specs keld/gets worn down by birds etc so why does it deserve to be in a? its only saving grace is volt switch which is nice to maintain momentum but thats all there is to it. the only mon which only has one niche in a is skarm, but its there because its so good on balance/stall rn and checks so many important threats in the current meta (mpinsir/grounds etc)+spikes/defog+phazing+most importantly reliable recovery.


    goth:

    B Rank: B Rank Pokemon usually have some sort of major flaw that prevents them from being a more common presence in the tier. However, they still are able to perform their roles very well with proper team support.

    this kinda sums up goth in a nutshell lol, biggest problem its a one trick pony, traps 1/2 shit and dies but it creates a large hole for the team to take advantage of. its major flaw is that its so weak and its targets are kinda limited as a result of it but when u encounter say a manaphy that manaphy is as good as dead unless you play goth terribly and let it get trapped by say ttar. b+ max, distinct niche in the current meta but thats all there is to it. not sure as to how goth is "extremely versatile" when its basically only running scarf with psychic/trick/whatever u want to catch and what team comp u r placing goth on. sure u can put hp fire for ferro and eball for idk but thats not rly "extremely versatile" lol.

    chomper:

    i think its way overhyped, a+ is solid enough imo. tankchomper on paper seems rly good as a general check to lots of physical attackers but u gotta keep in mind its very prone to being worn down by repeated attacks or status (ie wisp talon) which limits its usefulness. sd chomp is good but u have to account for the prevalence of its checks in the current meta and is it rly worth it to set up an sd turn 2 and click outrage to break down the walls when it still can potentially pivot in vs things. clicking outrage so early in the game makes u vulnerable to getting set up on esp by fairies/steels such as maltaria/mgardevoir which kinda is a huge blow.

    scarf is basically non existent and outclassed by landt except it outruns zard x, its way too small of a niche to be considered useful

    funny how someone above said serp can glare talon/mvenu, thats the best status u can give them lol, make them immune to toxic/burn and tougher to kill. gud strat.

    iron tail tornt is fine for mdiancie which imo is actually pretty good considering how common it is rn
     
  16. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ok, small update coming in:
    Code (text):
    1. Mega Gardevoir: A to A+
    2. Rotom: A- to A
    3. Zapdos: B to B+
    4. Gothitelle: B to A-
    Discussion Points:
    Mega Medicham to A
    Excadrill to A+
    Raikou to A
    Klefki to A
    Dragalge to B
    Hydreigon to B-
    Mega Latios to Unranked

    Edit: @Aurist it is too hard to make the changes, is it possible for you to do them please?

    Discuss away!
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2015
  17. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    [​IMG]
    Mega Medicham to A

    I agree. Yes, it is outclassed by Mega Lopunny in Speed and Stab Coverage, but Pure power is literally monstrous, no switch-in to Skarmory, Hippowdon and Clefable, and with a small Stealth Rock support this becomes destructive (KO Tornadus-T offensive in switch with High Jump Kick).
    While it is stopped by Mega Sableye, defensive Mew, Cresselia and Slowbro (Thunder Punch says "hello") and easily revenge kill by Talonflame, his power is abusive and has become very common currently (maybe due to some RMT Smogon).
    In addition, Bullet Punch + Fake Out compensate your speed low and it will not need much to have a decent coverage.

    [​IMG]
    Excadrill to A +

    I Disagree. Garchomp, Landorus-T, Gliscor, Hippowdon can switch easily to him. (If it goes to Air Baloon damage from Life Orb is very much needed).If Rand Rush, Rotom-W can stop it easily.
    Still suffers from Mach Punch and Aqua Jet. This Pokémon is a good but A is good for him. imo

    [​IMG]
    Raikou to A

    I Agree. Excellent speed without taking up mega slot, and item/set flexibility. (Leftovers+ Substitute, AV, Choice Species). Good Pivot.

    [​IMG]
    Klefki to A

    I agree. Really Annoyer, Speed support/emergency button with Prankster Thunder Wave, Spikes, Magnet Rise, Toxic for Electric or Ground Type in or switch, Flash Cannon, Foul Play or Play Rough for damage. In addition to the unusual but effective Switcheroo and Heal Block.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Dragalge, Hydreigon and Mega Latios I have not really seen in practice, maybe for this reason to drop a rung, but I prefer to stay neutral to them.

    Other Pokémon:

    [​IMG]
    Amoonguss B- to B

    He is well surpassed by Mega Venusaur in many ways, but it's a good switch option in Keldeo, Spore support, Regenerator (making good core with Slowbro), and even a good switch in Mega Diancie, Clefable and Altaria, access to Clear Smog , Foul Play, and HP Fire. It's a good "glue" to stall teams or balance.

    [​IMG]
    Scolipede B+ to A-

    While nothing is done about Baton Pass, it is a greater threat than B +. imo
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2015
  18. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Well removed Gothitelle and Wobbiffet since there main niche was banned.

    Discuss noms now that Shadow Tag got banned
     
  19. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    I would agree to put Mega Latios to unranked, but I would prefer to do it in a "blacklist" style to specifically point out "this Pokemon looks good but is bad". Speaking of which, I think it should be joined there by another poke:

    Blissey: With the death of Shadow Tag and Shed Shell no longer being a thing, Blissey is all but completely outclassed by Chansey, who isn't even all that good anyway. And if for some reason you desperately want leftovers/fear knock off/want a more offensive poke to use, Umbreon, Sylveon, Clefable, Togekiss, Vaporeon, and even Porygon2 are all better choices.

    Other suggestions:
    Tyrantrum: B- > B or B+. This thing's banded set is amazing. It pairs really well with a lot of common sweepers/wall breakers like ZardY, Starmie, Keldeo, and Manaphy with the insane power of its Banded Head Smash set, although Scarf and DD function pretty well also. I'd argue at the very worst it shouldn't be lower than MegaTar/MegaChomp, both of whom are much more of niche Pokemon that have a high team support requirement and oppurtunity cost.

    Landorus-T: A+ > S. With the arguable exception of ZardX, there is not a single pokemon that can fulfill as many roles on a team as consistently or simultaneously like Lando does. It can function as a wall-breaker, sweeper, pivot, or wall, and often can perform more than one role with the same set. It competes with Excadrill, Gliscor, Chomp, and Hippo for the same roles but continues to be the top contender in usage and not without good reason.

    Ninetales: Unranked > C-, C, or C+. Sun is a thing, with an amazing Chlorophyll abuser in Venasaur, several high-powered fire users like Volc and the Zard Megas, and a large portion of beefy ground types that appreciate a way to fight all of the tier's water types. Ninetales happens to have several niches over ZardY, including the ability to use Heat Rock, more bulk and less of a SR weakness to switch in easier, and the ability to use other megas like the faster and harder-hitting MegaDoom or the physically based ZardX (or non-fire types).
     
  20. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    [​IMG] rip now.

    [​IMG]Landorus-T has so many sets and all good, especially Stealth Rock + SD or Double Dance that are new trends in the metagame. I do not care if this monster go to S.

    [​IMG]Entei C +> B-
    Not only for spam Sacred Fire, even weak to Stealth Rock this Pokémon has a decent movepool with Stone Edge, Extreme Speed, Bulldoze and Iron Head, and a good offensive capability even limited to Choice Band.
     
  21. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Landorus-T for S what. It is pressured as hell by Rotom-Skarmory, it fears status way too much and rely on Smack down/Gravity to beats its counters ( I've seen twice Smack down and never Gravity) Defensively it has no way of recovery and can only switch once in a non boosted zard X, which is on another note super hard to counter. A+ at best imo

    Blissey always been useless, shadow or tag or not

    Tyrantrum is a fun mon but it's way too slow and can have hard time to set up/get in freely to use Head smash. Sure it hits like a truck ( but so does Rampardos ) but I find it an inferior choice in OU. B is fine

    Entei is like ok for somewhere in B-/B since Sacred Fire can burn and it can also check zard Y with AV which is very nice
     
  22. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Lando-T is fine in A+ to be honest, for the reasons mentioned by Elize Lutus. Its checks and counters are also very common in the metagame, which makes it hard to be as impactful as all S-mons.

    I'd like to see Scizor go from B to B+ or maybe even A-. It's still a very good mon without its Mega Stone, especially considering it has a much lower opportunity cost. It can do many things still, albeit not as effectively as its Mega. Leftovers is huge for bulky sets though.

    Also how is Omastar B? ;v
     
  23. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    It's faster than TTar and its Mega form, as well as every wall slower than an including an uninvested Mew. This is pretty important as its primary set is a wallbreaker. Also with a scarf or single DDance it outspeeds all other non-scarfers that are lower than base 130 and it has some pretty sweet physical bulk that prevents priority from being too huge of a problem.

    Also, agree with Scizor. It's virtually the same Pokemon as its mega form but with leftovers, a slightly weaker (but still amazing) Bullet Punch and U-turn, and not taking up a mega slot. I'd say it's a perfect comparison to Alakazam and Gyarados in terms of how different it is from its mega form, and should be treated as such and put in A, one spot below the mega.
     
  24. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    All mew invest enough to outspeed bisharp Jolly at least, also it's bulky enough to use wisp and wall banded and then spam roost. So eh, when I said Tyrantrum had a bad speed I truly meant it. It still has wallbreaking abilities ( superpower/fire fang for Ferro) and Head Smash to hit like a nuke. But tbh, i'ld rather play CB Terrakion or even sd lum rather than tyran
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  25. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ok so new update coming through:

    Code (text):
    1. Mega Medicham to A
    2. Raikou to A
    3. Klefki to A
    4. Scolipede to A-
    5. Scizor to B+
    6. Dragalge to B
    7. Amoonguss to B
    8. Tyrantrum to B
    Blissey's only relevant niche over Chansey now is that it can viable run Calm Mind to deal with Manaphy, which Chansey cannot. Besides that, Chansey totally outclasses Blissey now though. Landorus-T is amazing, but not S imo. Ya it can run multiple sets and it's super splashable, it gets worn down quite easily as it only has Leftovers for recovery. It also has quite a few checks/counters that are run on many teams without though in Skarmory, Weavile and Ferrothorn. I feel it's fine at A+. No comment on Entei and Ninetales, would like more opinions on those.

    Here are my own noms that I feel are adequate:

    [​IMG] S to A+:
    After Shadow Tag got banned, I feel Manaphy's effectiveness has diminished quite a bit as it would be one of the best Shed Shell stallbreakers to go against GothStall. It has many checks/counters due to what move it decides to run, and due to the meta always shifting towards offense, Manaphy can find it quite difficult to setup and stay alive with it's good 100 Speed. Just don't feel it's as potent as the other S mons atm.

    [​IMG] A+ to S:
    I feel Tornadus-T is amazing right now. AV/LO sets are both very good on dealing with offensive teams that are ever so popular on the ladder right now. The customizability of it's moves and sustainability due to Regenerator and U-Turn means that Tornadus-T will always be an offensive pressure that your opponent's team will always need to worry about in the back of their head. Hurricane's annoying accuracy is a drawback, but if your opponent is relying on the miss then they are making very bad plays or is a bad player. Tornadus-T is extremely splashable, and it's offensive presence should reflect in the rankings imo.

    Discuss any other noms if you want!

    @Aurist @Celestial Phantom can you fix the rankings please?

    Edit: was also wondering if I can setup a council so it wouldn't be just me making final decisions on noms. Pm me if interested.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2016
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  26. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    [​IMG]

    Manaphy is still a major threat .imo

    The set Rain Dance / Rest / Scald + Coverage destroys everything more slower.

    Latios LO can not KO with Draco Meteor.

    In addition, Raikou, Thundurus and Mega Manectric not resist Water-moves and no have recovery, Manaphy can make spam Scald.

    Very unusual, but Manaphy can run Wacan / Rindo Berry to soften its Electric / Grass weaknesses.

    The Set Rain / Rest / CM and Tail Glow + 3 Atk are also viable in the metagame.

    Currently the only defensive counter what I consider is Clefable Unaware Sp. Def with Wish. I saw only one Blissey in recent days.

    Finally, Manaphy can run Hidden Power Fire to catch Ferrothorn and Shedinja.

    Stay in S

    [​IMG]

    Tornadus-Therian has only two common sets in the metagame, but that's all he needs to make a big impact.
    Amazing Speed (can Outspeed Alakazam), good Bulky, U-Turn and Regenerator, combined with Assault Vest, make Tornadus-T the best pivot of the game. imo
    While Speed, Regenerator to recover the Recoil of Life Orb and excellent movepool make Tornadus-T is a great Sweeper / Wallbreaker.

    Ok, acc Hurricane is weak, and he only has 1 STAB, but his movepool is absurd.
    Common Moves: Hurricane, U-Turn, Knock Off, Heat Wave, Super Power, Hidden Power Ice / Icy Wind. And unusual: Iron Tail, Sludge Wave, Grass Knot, Taunt (prevents Azelf to use Stealth Rock), Focus Blast, Dark Pulse. Or even a physical set No Item and Acrobatics.

    Tornadus-T can remove the item from the majority of its checks, and still use U-Turn before they do something, this includes: Rotom-W, Clefable, Sylveon, Raikou, Zapdos (the best "counter" imo).
    Weavile can not switch in in any move.
    Thundurus and Mega Manectric not have recovery, and Heat Wave hits hard.
    Mega Aerodactyl can be defeated by Iron Tail after Stealth Rock.

    In short, even your best checks are not being totally effective or can be defeated with an unusual move.
    The same chance to Hurricane avoids, exists for the side effect, Confusion. But I don't wanna talk about "hax".

    Go To S
     
  27. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Done!

    Fwiw I strongly support Tornadus-T for moving up to S-rank. It's been one of the most impactful and definitive pokemon in the tier for a long time now, people have just been forgetting about it. It's one of the easiest to use pokemon in the tier and almost always is extremely hard to deal with, in my opinion it's borderline broken with several of its sets and frankly barely even needs to run a STAB move, though even 4 SAtk Hurricane does what it needs to do on LO sets. It's very easily the best pivot in the game whether running offensive or more bulky sets and is incredibly customizable to fit the needs of a team. Honestly the best pokemon in OU right now and without a doubt deserves that S spot.
     
  28. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    [​IMG]
    Starmie A- > A / A +
    After the ban of Greninja and Aegislash, Starmie has become an incredible Pokémon.

    Starmie definitely has large space in the metagame.
    A fast and versatile Spinner.

    Currently I see only two common Ghost-Type in OU, Mega Sableye and Gengar.
    Starmie has two main sets.

    Defensive:
    It is faster than Gengar and defeat with Psyshock without investment in Sp. Atk.
    Natural Cure is great for absorbing Burn from Scald, one of the most annoying moves of the game.
    Access to Recover.
    Can run Reflect type to not get super effective of Pursuit. And gives immune to Leech Seed.
    Access to Scald, and consequentement induce burns.
    It is faster than Serperior and Thundurus for a Rapid Spin emergency.
    Access to Thunder Wave.
    Excellent switch to Keldeo, Hippowdon and Heatran (except Solar + Power Beam Herb).

    Offensive:
    Analytic (more Life Orb) punishes switches.
    Hydro Pump KO Bisharp, 93.8% chance to OHKO Scarf Tyranitar.
    Catch Rotom-W with Psychic. Manaphy and Slowbro with Thunderbolt. Latios and Latias with Ice Beam. All 2 KO.
    2KO Mega Sableye with Hydro Pump. (If you do not like Hydro Pump accuracy can use Dazzling Gleam).
    Faster than regular Pokémon base 110 Speed: Mega Diancie, Latios, Latias, Gengar, Mega Gallade and now Mega Metagross.
    Hidden Power Fire to Ferrothorn lol.
    Speed tie with Azelf and Raikou.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2016
  29. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Ok so I decided to set up a Viability Rankings Council to help me with decisions, it is as follows:
    Me
    @TraceofLife
    @Finchinator

    PM me if you are experienced in OU and are interested in joining as there are still spots open. Anyways here is what we decided:

    Manaphy: S to A+
    Tornadus-T: A+ to S
    Starmie: A- to A

    Feel free to discuss any more noms (in particular the Landorus-T to S one, as there wasn't enough on that)

    @Aurist @Celestial Phantom Do the honors

    Edit: Oops almost forgot, discuss the placement of Mega Metagross that has recently been added in the tier
     
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  30. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I would say that if your running TG RD over RT Keldeo there is the problem that Manaphy is more vulnerable to hazards and has no recovery. To set up both requires 2 turns and sacrifices rotom/keldeo/slowbro coverage by forgoing energy ball. It is also performs much worse against offensive teams. Kyu and ferro are two staples for balance. There are only so many water types you can have on one team. Manaphy is supposed to be a bulky wallbreaker but it really struggles to accomplish that job and it is easily prepared for. Keldeo is almost always better and starmie has better bulky sets
     
  31. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    I don't think that you can compare Manaphy to Keldeo, and certainly not to Starmie. Manaphy's sole job is do demolish stall/balance, something that it does much better than Keldeo because it only needs 1 turn to setup. Keldeo has no hope of breaking past Bulky Grasses (if running its Sub CM Set) and most Bulky Waters (who nearly all have ways to deal with Keld), whereas Manaphy can easily break through them depending on the coverage moves it picks. They are both outsped by fast Electrics anyway, so that's not really an arguement.

    Also Ice Beam vs Kyu isn't as weak as you think:
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-B: 223-263 (57 - 67.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Starmie is an offensive/bulky spinner that will most definitely not break through any Pokemon that Manaphy can break through. 100 base SpAtk without a boosting moves only gets you so far, even if you have Starmie's godlike coverage.
     
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  32. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    You don't have to think two mons preform the same role to say that the viability of one diminishes the other. Keldeo, Azu, starmie, and rotom are all much easier to fit on teams and provide much more support than a one dimensional sweeper. Offensively, with TG 3 attacks you get walled by chansey and clef so easily. If you choose to go RD TG you will lose to water types(!). And if you choose to go full rain rest you might as well run reflect type starmie or RT keldeo because both are not dead weight vs offense and have the same survivability vs defencive teams. Manaphy is not the only boosting sweeper in the tier. Its role as a sweeper is not any less valuable than starmie's as a hazard remover and Manaphy is clearly less effective at its role.

    Keldeo (and rotom with trick to wallbreak) runs scarf to surprise and outspeed offensive mons, something Manaphy cant do. The point is that Manaphy is a good sweeper but one that is very easily checked through teambuilding. It doesn't have the utility of any of the other waters (checking dark types, checking MMeta, spinning, secondary typing, mixed attacking).

    I have seen you post that KyuB calc so many times. If kyurem is scarfed you just die after it switches on a TG. If its not it will still live +3 ice beam and rocks and lo and still 1hko: what more can you ask of a offensive check to a sweeper?

    If we could stop default calcing manaphy at +3 that would be nice because you know, you actually have to set up first. It gets one shot to accomplish its job and often has to rely on predicting switches to set up. Kyub, ferro, and venu are hard counters. Chansey and clef are checks (counter non rain dance). It fails to 1hko the offensive mons that can switch in and 1hko themselves (serp, both Thundies, MManectric). AV Raiku and empoleon are solid checks for balance that are good in general. Keldeo can 1-2hko all of these things and supports a team better. Manaphy does not measure up to the other bulky waters and sweepers in A+ and is more akin to MegaCham in A; it is very threatening but there are common checks/better options that prevent it from being metagame defining.
     
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  33. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Manaphy can actually run a Scarf set, as it's one of the few Water Mons to get U-Turn. It's not extremely viable because it only has 100 spAtk, but it can run it. That's not the point however that I'm trying to get across. You just cannot compare Manaphy to other Waters, just as you can't compare a generic Fire to other Fires because they have the same typing. Building teams is much more than getting type synergy, as you will also want some role synergy to get a good matchup vs more than 1 playstyle. If anything, Manaphy can be compared to Sub CM Keldeo, because they serve the same purpose of breaking down common stall/balance cores. Manaphy here has the advantage imo, as it has a much more threatening setup move in Tail Glow and the coverage to break past its common checks and counters.

    If you see a Kyu-B on their team, do you think it's wise to set up immediately? There is such a thing of "knowing when to set up to sweep", instead of "oh, I have a great boosting move, let's click it every time I send out this mon and hope it will sweep!" CharX won't sweep when certain mons are alive, so you try to whittle them down. Kyu-B has a SR weakness and if you manage to get a burn with Scald, it can't RK you either. The key to any setup sweeper is to know when you have to setup, and setting up when your checks/counters are still alive makes no sense at all.

    You realize Manaphy has amazing 100/100/100 bulk and a great defensive typing? Setting up is actually really easy, as it can tank most non-super effective hits. Also, Manaphy has an amazing set of coverage options (it gets Ice Beam, Energy Ball, Psychic and Shadow Ball) and can pick whatever fits its team best. That's why TG + 3 Att is such a good set. Only Scald is mandatory imo and you can have a lot of variety in the other 2 coverage moves, which means that the Manaphy user can pick its checks and counters.

    It's certainly not S material anymore, but I think it's still extremely threatening to both stall and balance, so it should be A+.

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 156-184 (44.3 - 52.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 416-492 (118.1 - 139.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +3 252 SpA Manaphy Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 350-412 (96.1 - 113.1%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
     
  34. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    If something is clearly bad, then no it cant run it.

    Who is gonna stop me?

    How many teams do you run Manaphy+keldeo? If its one or the other I'd rather have the better one. Type synergy is the first thing to consider when teambilding. Keldeo has the advantage bc it is a better pokemon. More unpredictable, beats all dark types (!), beats chansey all the time, is a mixed attacker, more power. We are talking viablity here and with so many good waters manaphy really struggles to set itself apart.

    If the plan is to get lucky with scald burns I know of a certain waterhorse that fires them off a lot stronger and can 1hko kyurem and ferro. Something that is borderline useless as long as those too mons are alive really doesn't seem to be a top tier mon in the meta.

    You realize that every other water we are talking about here (Keldeo, rotom, Azu) has better typing? Setting up against well build teams is not an option until late game. TG RD is the best set right now bc you really need to beat chansey and clefable. It is unable to cover waters so it is worse against offense than TG 3 attacks. TG 3 attacks can't break balance that commonly carries one or more of chansey, ferro, clef, KyuB. On TG 3 attacks the main advantage is beating other waters so to give that up for psychic on venu is not worth the trade off especially when any team with venu will most likely have a chansey.
    Azumarill, very scary to give free turns
    Slowbro, very common rn in the meta
    Starmie
    Rotom, has SE stabs to slap you with
    MegaDos
    Empoleon now owns your life
    +all the other things that TG 3 attacks loses to that I talked about above

    Manaphy is outclassed by both of the waters in A+. Other special attackers like Latios have about the same amount of switch ins but have added versatility with defog/roost, more lure moves, and better resistances. It fits better with A

    I think a shadow ball/uturn calc would be more helpful.
     
  35. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Small update time:

    Code (text):
    1. Mega Metagross to A+
    2. Scolipede to C+
    I would still like to see discussion on Manaphy moving down, and possibly even Mega Sableye... Discuss

    @Aurist @Celestial Phantom
     
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  36. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Quagsire for A-

    Quagsire is what you have the closest counter to Charizard X, Bisharp, Scizor, Lando and Weavile etc. It has a fantastic bulk and can even counter Mega Manectric, and Raikou which means it should have an important place in the metagame. I've been using it for a long time and I really think it's more than viable, and more than niche which is why I think A- is really good for it. It has it flaws, since it's a tank it needs some support like Heal bell and usually rely on Scald Burns or not getting burned to win ( which is how it loses to CM Clef Flamethrower)

    Manaphy is really fine at A+ because it can demolish some archetypes, it can get through its counter by changing one move, so it really depends on your team ( Energy ball for Rotoms, Psychic for Venusaur, Hp fire for ferro etc etc). By experience, it's a pokemon that can sweep unprepared teams easily and require little to no support bar removing stuff like Raikou/Manectric/Chansey

    Mega Sableye is an annoying pokemon but S seems too much for me. I mean between the Fake out Foul Play set, the Foul Play/Knock off set and the Wisp CM set, Sableye has one big issue is the fact it's way too exposed to crits, burns ( scald/lava) and needs a lot of turn of set up to actually be good. I'ld make it A+/A because it remains an annoying pokemon to face, and it can still counter a lot of stuff
     
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  37. Xdevo

    Xdevo Some things can't be changed Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Without Baton Pass, I struggle to see Celebi or Scolipede as worthy of A- status. While Scolipede has a pretty significant niche in suicide spiking, but I don't feel its enough to justify it, especially when klefki exists. I'd say it's a B- mon personally, since it does a similiar amount of work as the other B- mons (imo)

    Celebi struggles against a lot of OU's offensive threats, and lost a lot of its threat now that it can't BP Nasty Plot to something else much more threatening that itself. The defensive / support sets are all fine and good I guess, but I don't think I'd find myself in a situation where I'd rather have a Celebi than one of a Venu, Ferro, or Latias. Essentially countering Keldeo (no lasting burns) is good, but Celebi invites a lot of dangerous Pokemon into play, so its a pretty steep trade-off. I'd place it in B or B-.
     
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  38. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

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    [​IMG]
    Reuniclus B > B- / C +
    Quite unusual in OU, I saw only one this year.
    Ok, initially seems like a good Pokémon with Magic Guard absorbing status, CM Recover, LO Trick Room, or Regenerator AV, but has low speed, weak to the most common moves in the game; Knock off. Still weak to U-Turn and is overcome by Clefable in several respects. Besides being easily stopped by Mega Sableye.

    [​IMG]
    Magneton B- > C + / C
    Only utility is to use Choice Scarf and be faster than Magnezone.

    [​IMG]
    Seismitoad C + > B
    Probably the Pokémon that has more space and usagem in recent weeks.
    Decent bulky, excellent counter to Rotom-W, Raikou and Mega Manectric. Immunity Scald is great in the current metagame.
    Also, learns the 3 most annoying moves in metagame; Knock Off, Scald and Stealth Rock.
    Scald can burn Mega Sableye and so press it to switch and use Stealth Rock.
    Finally, Rest is very viable.
    I do not see much use in Swift Swin since he is overcome by Kingdra but anyway is a good pokémon in the current metagame.
     
  39. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2015
    Messages:
    253
    Likes Received:
    96
    Ok so I would like to conduct another update to clean out the A rankings, here is what I want some discussion on:

    Mega Sableye to A+ (still undecided on where is should be...)
    Mega Altaria to A
    Hippowdon to A
    Excadrill to A+
    Mega Gyarados to A-
    Klefki to A-
    Mega Latias to A-
    Breelom to A-


    Also here is a super small update:
    Code (text):
    1. Quagsire to A-
    2. Celebi to B
    @Aurist @Celestial Phantom

    P.S Scolipede was supposed to move down last update (to C+ specifically)
     
  40. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Tome muito líquido!

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2015
    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    31
    PO Trainer Name:
    Mitsuo
    [​IMG]
    Mega Sableye A+
    The preparation against Mega Sableye and its ability to prevent entry hazards and status, made become "less" dangerous, even it neutralizes Skarmory, Chansey, Ferrothorn and others, the metagame has adapted better to face it; Clefable and Excadrill Stealth Rock, Landorus-T and Garchomp SD Lum Berry, among others. Obviously Mega Sableye is still an excellent Pokémon, keeping stall with "life". Also, a more offensive metagame that can 2HKO with less difficulty.

    [​IMG]
    Mega Altaria A
    No has a destructive power or speed compared to other megas, with weakness to Stealth Rock before mega evolve, has difficulty to use Dragon Dance, which still is "slow". Stopped by Talonflame and Mega Venusaur.

    [​IMG]
    Excadrill A+
    +/- 4 months ago I was against it, but now in a more offensive metagame, sand offense is really common and effective. Also, Excadrill is more versatile now imo, with a SRock ad bulky set, good check Clefable.

    [​IMG]
    Hippowdon A
    Even with the increase in Sandstorm, Hippowdon lost space in the metagame after Starmie has become more popular, that neutralizes well. Besides is a free switch to Serperior.
    Finally, Clefable, Excadrill and Seismitoad are better SRock user imo.
     
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