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[Monotype] Landorus-I Suspect [Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by Edna, Oct 11, 2015.

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  1. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Discuss the effects of Landorus-I on the Monotype metagame and the possibility of banning it. Post intelligently based off of experience in the metagame. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions. i.e. if you play Monotype at all, then post.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Landorus-I as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached or a clear majority is established, then the result will likely be implemented in the metagame, otherwise it will go to a vote. Happy suspecting.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2015
    Draciel, Joyverse and E.T. like this.
  2. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    Well this seems like a hot topic. There isn't even anyone for me to argue with yet. Oh well, Ill just set a baseline post then.

    LANDORUS-INCARNATE's EFFECT ON MONOGROUND

    Lando-I provides MUCH needed coverage moves and immunity to itself to Ground. It shares it's half-flying status with Gliscor, who works well with the rest of Ground's bulky style, but lacks the damages. Lando's status as a heavy Special attacker is what makes it stand out in the crowd of Half-Dragons and Hippos, as few other Ground types (Camerupt and the Nidos, Gastrodon to an extent) share this niche. Camerupt and Gastro really lack in the coverage department and Queen is outclassed by King, so lets disqualify them for now. This leaves us with Nidoking as the only true competition for Lando's spot. However, the Poison type is almost a liability, leaving it weak to the omnipresent Earthquake, which Lando is immune to. Im not going to restate the OU suspect discussion here, go read it. Ill post a couple useful posts in spoiler tags here.

    Landorus's greatest weakness is that he can only use 4 moves at a time, out of a long list of good coverage.
    And the fact that this isn't a weakness, is really not true. The argument that you choose the 4 moves to fit your team can apply to any Offensive Pokemon, really. 4mss especially applies to Landorus-I. You really can't afford to run Knock Off, if you are running Rock Polish or Calm Mind. If you want to go with just a regular attacker, Knock Off/Focus Blast/Psychic/Earth Power would be common. However, this still leaves you with a weakness. The reply that you choose the 4moves that best fit your team isn't really valid.
    Also, if you are a Physical Ice Type, you will always carry Ice Shard as a priority move. It's a STAB priority move that can hit Dragon-types and Ground/Flying types. If you are running a Ice Type, and its Physical, it would be best to run Ice Shard.
    Common Moves For Special Landorus w/ Max EVs in Sp. A and Speed, with either a Modest, Naive, or Timid Nature:
    - Earth Power
    - Psychic
    - Sludge Wave
    - HP Ice
    - Rock Slide
    - Focus Blast
    - Rock Polish
    - Calm Mind
    - Knock Off
    Mamoswine is a great check. Although it can't switch in onto Focus Blast. it OHKOs with Ice Shard, a priority move. Although Focus Sash is not an argument, it still manages to get rid of any Landorus with it's priority move, Ice Shard.
    252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 316-376 (99 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    240 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 374-442 (117.2 - 138.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 681-803 (189.6 - 223.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Scarf Kyurem and Kyurem-B are also checks to Lando, but like Mamoswine, can't switch in onto Focus Blast. Again, with that Ice Beam STAB, it manages to OHKO Landorus, and is faster due to scarf.
    32 SpA Teravolt Kyurem-B Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 564-664 (176.8 - 208.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 712-840 (223.1 - 263.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem: 442-523 (113 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Kyurem-B: 494-582 (126.3 - 148.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Latios/Latias are also checks, but cannot switch in mainly due to Knock Off. Landorus does not, however, run Knock Off all the time for example, CM or RP sets. Standard LO Latios will OHKO with Draco Meteor, and a 25% chance to OHKO if Latias.
    184 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 281-331 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 333-394 (104.3 - 123.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 296-348 (92.7 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 265-312 (88.6 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 239-283 (74.9 - 88.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


    Keldeo also checks, but gets OHKO'ed by Psychic. Both Scald and Hydro Pump will OHKO Landorus, and it is faster.
    252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 470-554 (147.3 - 173.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 333-393 (103 - 121.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Mega Gardevoir/Scarf Gardevoir checks special Landorus, abusing it's special bulk and using it's ability Trace to its ability. Scarf Gardevoir has a 43.8% to OHKO with Moonblast, while Mega Gardevoir gets a guaranteed OHKO with Hyper Voice.
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 289-342 (90.5 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
    232+ SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 333-393 (104.3 - 123.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 173-204 (62.4 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 203-239 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 24 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 244-289 (88 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    AV Azumarill also checks and OHKO's with Waterfall and 2HKO's with Aqua Jet. Depending, Azumarill can either decide to move last and OHKO, or 2HKO with priority.
    252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 348-410 (109 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 174-206 (54.5 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 255-302 (63.5 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    Mega Alakazam is something that abuses Landorus's Sheer Force with it's own ability, Trace but will almost certainly be always OHKO'ed. Furthermore, Mega Alakazam can also CM and take any of Landorus's apecial attacks.
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Alakazam Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 316-373 (99 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
    0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off vs. 32 HP / 0 Def Alakazam: 276-325 (106.5 - 125.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Mega Gallade is also an important check against Landorus. Zen Headbutt and Ice Punch both 2HKO/OHKO'ing Landorus. It is also faster after Mega evolving.
    252 Atk Mega Gallade Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 428-508 (134.1 - 159.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Mega Gallade Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 171-202 (53.6 - 63.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Gallade: 203-239 (73.2 - 86.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    The real counter is Cresselia. Using its ability Levitate, it avoids Earth Power. Cresselia can run Ice Beam which will 2HKO. It has the ability to recover, which makes it a great check against Landorus, even after the initial Knock Off/
    0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 248-292 (77.7 - 91.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 140-166 (31.5 - 37.3%) -- 86.4% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    Starmie is also a decent check, being faster and OHKO'ing with Hydro Pump or Ice Beam. However, major flaws include being OHKO'ed by Knock off and the ability to only switch into Psychic.
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 515-608 (161.4 - 190.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 468-554 (146.7 - 173.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    0 Atk Life Orb Landorus Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 252-299 (96.1 - 114.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Starmie: 261-308 (99.6 - 117.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Weavile, a fast Physical Ice type, uses Ice Shard to his advantage and is immune to Psychic and resists Knock Off but gets OHKO'ed by EP and Focus Blast. Weavile, is also able to Ice Punch, which is a OHKO and it is faster than Landorus.
    252 Atk Life Orb Weavile Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus: 348-421 (109 - 131.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Weavile: 261-308 (92.8 - 109.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


    AV Tornadus-T is another counter to Landorus-I. Hurricane 2HKOs. Tornadus-T, with the right switch ins and moves, will be able to take down Landorus-I.
    160 SpA Tornadus-T Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 199-235 (62.3 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 132 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 110-131 (33.1 - 39.4%) -- 19.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. 132 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 91-108 (27.4 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock


    Alright I'd like to address the matter of Four Move Slot Syndrome (aka 4MSS).

    While it can be argued that Landorus does suffer from 4MSS, that doesn't necessarily mean it's less of a threat, nor does it detract from pro-ban arguments. On the contrary, it actually fuels the fire for pro-ban arguments as it shows the unpredictability of Landorus in OU. It is able to run a plethora of viable move slot combinations (with Earth Power being the lone staple) that makes it nearly impossible to counter consistently while it still covers a majority of the metagame with every set and can hand pick its own counters based on its team, making it very easy to fit into teams and especially abusable on offense and bulky-offensive teams. Some combinations of moves I've seen Lando run are:
    • Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Hidden Power Ice / RP or CM or SR or U-turn
    • Earth Power / Focus Blast / Psychic / RP or CM or SR or U-turn
    • Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Psychic / RP or CM or SR or U-turn
    • Earth Power / Sludge Wave / Focus Blast / RP or CM or SR or U-turn
    • Earth Power / Focus Blast / Hidden Power Ice / RP or CM or SR or U-turn
    • Earth Power / Rock Slide / Hidden Power Ice or Focus Blast or Psychic or Sludge Wave / Hidden Power Ice or Focus Blast or Psychic orSludge Wave
    • Earth Power / Knock Off / Psychic or Focus Blast or Sludge Wave or RP / Psychic or Focus Blast or Sludge Wave or RP
    You get the point yet? I hope so. On other fronts, I'm going to have to echo @@Raducan for the most part.

    Landorus has above average speed (base 101) which allows it to not easily get "played around" by any archetype of team unless they have something like Talonflame or Mega Aerodactyl, which are hardly even safe to switch in and be used to occasionally check Landorus, but they certainly cannot counter or consistently check it (especially because they can't roost vs it unless they want to risk the "EP on the roost mindgame" and coverage moves can do a lot of damage to each of these pokemon - potentially 2hko both depending on their spreads). Additionally, this speed lets it threaten entire balance teams who at most have a fast offensive pokemon like Keldeo and a scarfer to outpace it, generally, if even that.

    Landorus has top notch power with base 115 SAtk in conjunction with Sheer Force and the boost from LO (which is a given because LO and SF go so well together). It's able to 2hko upwards of ninety percent of the metagame with its STAB and common coverage on the most common sets I'd say and if that isn't enough, STAB Earth Power is able to 2hko any non-Chansey/Blissey (with a few exceptions) if it's hitting neutrally or super effectively.

    Landorus has the natural bulk to not be easily revenge killed by neutral attacks and it doesn't have the worst defensive typing (ok, it's 4x weak to ice, but Mamoswine is so uncommon that it has dropped UU here on PO and it's not much more common otherwise, either, and nothing else has Ice Shard, so you can't label Landorus as priority weak and while it is still weak to Ice and Water, it's not too bad otherwise). Basically, it's not as frail as some other offensive threats who fit the glass-cannon role are and that's worth noting.

    Overall, Landorus is an unhealthy presence in OU on various fronts and due to a general lack of counters, it should be banned from ORAS OU.

    Arguments to ban:
    Annoyingly powerful Special attacker
    Great coverage
    Can run 4 attacks without needing to run SR with all of the other Grounds that have access to that move

    Arguments for No Ban:
    irreplaceable on Ground
    Shares the rest of the type's obvious Ice weakness
    Ground doesn't need the nerf tbh
    some of the worst 4MSS in the game, especially on Monoground where lots of these moves are needed

    Judgement: The Ground type does not provide Lando enough Ice switch-ins to overcome the fact that every Special attacker with anything that resembles an open moveslot runs Ice Beam or HP Ice with Monoflying running rampant, and Ground just doesnt need to be hit like this. NOT BROKEN ON MONOGROUND

    LANDORUS-INCARNATE's EFFECT ON MONOFLYING

    Let me begin by saying that my Monoelectric has a significantly better win rate versus it's one weakness (Ground, I think close to 75% win rate) then one of it's strongest theoretical matchups (Flying, Closer to 30%). Flying has almost the exact opposite problems as Ground does minus their shared weakness to Ice Beam. Where Ground has a lack of coverage moves, Flying has incredible coverage on every mon who's name does not begin with the letter S (Skarm, Swellow, Swoobat, Staraptor). Where Ground has lots of bulky mons and few Special attackers, Flying only has Skarmory and Mandibuzz (And Dragonite/Toge to an extent) in the bulk department and a ton of hard Special hitters (Tornadus, Toge, Zapdos, Pidgeot, Lando-I). Where Ground has plenty of weapons to deal with the common Monosteel, Flying has... Landorus-I (Quiet down, Moltres). Again, Im not going to restate the OU suspect, but it is a good read, so go do that. And now for your personal entertainment, How each type deals and gets dealt with by Lando and Co. on Monoflying.

    BUG: Has no Ice moves, lando resists STAB. M-Scizor and M-Pinsir are your only hopes, and you cant run both.
    DARK: Weavile OHKOes with priority Ice Shard. Cant switch in if Rocks are up tho, and Dark is lacking in ways to remove them outside Mandibuzz
    DRAGON: No type matchups that matter here, and Lando out-attacks many Dragons.
    ELECTRIC: HP ICE ON EVERYTHING HUEHUEHUE... Im not even kidding, M-Manectric's HP Ice hurts to hell, and he is faster even on the turn he goes Mega. Nothing in this type (Except Flyers and Eelectross) can switch in on EP without an Air Baloon tho.
    FAIRY: Sludge Wave, EP for Mawiles and Klefki. Not much to see here
    FIGHTING: Have fun dealing with the REST of the monoflying. Ice Punch hurts.
    FIRE: CB Talonflame can revenge kill, and MOST Lando dont run Rock Slide. MOST. Outside of Talonflame and MZardY, E A R T H P O W E R.
    FLYING: Lando has very few tools to deal with itself, but HP Ice is among them
    GHOST: SPOOKY SCARY SKELETONS (Gengar says Hi to non-Psychic variants)
    GRASS: If you beat a monoflying with monograss, the Monoflying player has fucked up real bad. Also, Sludge Wave and HP Ice
    GROUND: See Grass. Mamoswine and Donphan carry Ice Shard tho, Gastro runs IB.
    ICE: This might be monoflying's worst matchup outside of the mirror. Weavile still shreks the entire Flying type (Quiet down, Moltres). Focus Blast is Lando's best friend here, but those have a tendency to miss a lot and you only get 8 of them
    NORMAL: Focus Blast for those that are not half flying, HP Ice or Rock Slide for those that are, Dragonite for Chansey and Blissey.
    POISON: E A R T H P O W E R (Psychic for Tentacruel and Wheezing)
    PSYCHIC: Cresselia, M-Gallade, M-Garde, Starmie, ect. can all handle Lando pretty well.
    ROCK: E A R T H P O W E R
    STEEL: E A R T H P O W E R. Skarm is still a bitch. Defensive M-Scizor can still wall it for a while, but not forever.
    WATER: As @EqualizeR pointed out, unboosted Azumarill Aqua Jet does not OHKO, and Water (Outside of Rain) lacks the speed and/or revenge killers to deal with Lando. IN RAIN, however, Azu CAN revenge with AJet, and M-Swampert with 184 Speed EVs does outspeed and gets an easy OHKO

    Arguments to ban:
    Annoyingly powerful Special attacker
    Great coverage
    Actually has a few neutral switches to fall back on for Ice attacks (Skarmory)
    Is one of 2 decent SR setters for this type (Skarmory)
    Base 101 speed is pretty damn good
    Flying's general coverage removes SOME of the 4MSS burden.
    Flying needs to get nerfed
    Terribly hard to scout

    Arguments for No Ban:
    Shares the rest of the type's obvious Ice weakness
    some of the worst 4MSS in the game

    Judgement: He just hits too hard. That is all. also f*** monoflying. BROKEN ON MONOFLYING

    tl;dr Land-I, despite his 4MSS being far more of an issue in Monotype then in OU, still has favorable matchups against way too many types and has way too few checks, most of which are in less powerful types anyway. He also resides in one of the most powerful Monotypes in the format as a Flying type, giving him plenty of team support. On that account, I believe Landorus (Incarnate Forme) should be BANNED FROM MONOTYPE
     
  3. sulcata

    sulcata stéphane curry best waifu Forum Moderator Server Administrator Forum Moderator Server Administrator

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    I don't see what OU posts have to do with a Monotype discussion. Also, what are you arguing with 4MSS and why is it particularly more notable in Monotype as you claim? You say having a lot of moves is good, and then you say it's a bad thing. Which is it? (hint: it's a good thing to have versatility)

    Nerfing or buffing or not nerfing a type has literally nothing to do with if a Pokemon gets banned. If the Pokemon itself proves to be an overpowering factor in the metagame then it gets banned. The only type based argument are arguing it from the different perspectives of each of its types, where it may or may not be able to get/provide the support needed to make it broken. Worrying what happens to a type after banning something has nothing to do with the outcome of this discussion.

    Fire/Ground are amazing STABs on Camerupt and Gastrodon gets a lot of artificial coverage with Scald burns, Ice Beam isn't a bad move either. Nidoqueen can be a better SR setter than Nidoking with more bulk while maintaining relatively strong attacks. Poison-typing isn't really a liability when it has a much more important utility of offense v. Fairies and resisting Fighting attacks. I don't see why every Pokemon Nidoking could face has Earthquake. There are plenty of opportunities Nidoking can get to get in and abuse its coverage to force your opponent to make plays. Overall it's not a liability. Having weaknesses doesn't make it a liability, it just makes it not broken.

    Where do the 75% and 30% win rate stats come from bar guesstimating from a sample of personal recollections?

    BUG: Has no Ice moves, lando resists STAB. M-Scizor and M-Pinsir are your only hopes, and you cant run both.
    Bug is a more offensive type and as such needs to maintain pressure. If a Bug user is forced to switch, then they're probably not doing super well. Lando's Earth Power is also resisted by Bug, so at best you're getting neutral hits that probably won't OHKO, while you're forced to take hits from Scizor, Mega Pinsir or Scizor, Yanmega, Volcarona (if rocks aren't up), etc. Ice moves are not the only way to check Landorus-I.

    DARK: Weavile OHKOes with priority Ice Shard. Cant switch in if Rocks are up tho, and Dark is lacking in ways to remove them outside Mandibuzz
    Mandibuzz is plenty good for Defogging. You've additionally got Skuntank and Taunt Sableye.

    DRAGON: No type matchups that matter here, and Lando out-attacks many Dragons.
    It's the opposite, Dragons out-attack Landorus-I by a longshot. Kyurem-B is scarf, AV, or bulky sub, all of which survive a LO Focus Blast (sans rocks) or kill Landorus-I first. Latios and Latias come in for free if it lacks Knock Off, and even then it needs to predict and fail to OHKO Latios without Rocks and Latias. Dragonite does extremely well with its typing and Multiscale. Salamence takes a hit without rocks. Mega Altaria is the only one it outright beats, but it needs to have mega'd before, otherwise it can DD, then mega and start sweeping. Landorus-I is the least useful member on Flying/Ground due to its inability to OHKO most Dragons while letting in powerful set up sweepers and getting OHKO'd itself.

    252 SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 0 HP/0 SpDef Garchomp: 261 - 308 (73.1 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    This is about the average uninvested bulk of most Dragons neutral to Landorus for reference.

    ELECTRIC: HP ICE ON EVERYTHING HUEHUEHUE... Im not even kidding, M-Manectric's HP Ice hurts to hell, and he is faster even on the turn he goes Mega. Nothing in this type (Except Flyers and Eelectross) can switch in on EP without an Air Baloon tho.
    Rotom-W can come in pretty easily if Focus Blast is the best it can hit with, which needs to be predicted, not miss twice, and have SR up. Those "flyers" happen to by Zapdos and Thundurus-T/I, which are all immensely threatening and viable against Flying Monotypes while having some of the better matchups against Ground. In Electric's case, it generally loses to Ground anyway unless it plays Rotom-W super well, so Flying is the most relevant here (and it lets in dangerous/very supportive mons).

    FAIRY: Sludge Wave, EP for Mawiles and Klefki. Not much to see here
    Assault Vest Azumarill helps, but obviously it's not perfect. Klefki gets up Light Screen which is extremely helpful in outlasting Landorus-I. I have no idea why you mention Mawile; without Mawilite it's fairly useless. Excadrill is a lot more painful for Fairy to face in the Ground v. Fairy matchup with Sand Rush and a monstrous Attack stat tanked by nothing (Fairy has mostly specially bulky Pokemon).

    FIGHTING: Have fun dealing with the REST of the monoflying. Ice Punch hurts.
    Ice Punch from what? Anyway, Keldeo is fairly good at taking a hit or revenging with Scarf. Assault Vest Conkeldurr is very good. Not really a huge issue in the Fighting v. Ground matchup, and as you said Flying is usually pretty uphill to begin with.

    FIRE: CB Talonflame can revenge kill, and MOST Lando dont run Rock Slide. MOST. Outside of Talonflame and MZardY, E A R T H P O W E R.
    Mega Charizard Y is banned as a result of Drought being banned. Most don't run Rock Slide and I haven't seen it specifically proven effective in Monotype. It was mostly for Talonflame, Volcarona, and Mega Pinsir in OU, none of which Flying/Ground have notable issues with. Landorus-I doesn't need to stay in on Talonflame, and I'm fairly sure Landorus-I needs to take prior damage. Landorus also has Rocks backing it up. Obviously this sucks for Fire in the Ground matchup regardless. Flying is aided by Landorus-I, but it has Landorus-T, Gyarados, Gliscor, and Dragonite which all give Fire a very hard time anyway.

    FLYING: Lando has very few tools to deal with itself, but HP Ice is among them
    Why is Landorus dealing with itself. A bulky Zapdos can tank hits. Dragonite and revenge kill or set up on Landorus-I depending on each of their sets. Thundurus-I/T are extremely good. Letting Thundurus-T in is almost equivalent to losing a Pokemon in the Flying v. Flying matchup. I don't really know what it does in the Ground v. Flying matchup. Not very useful against Flying for the aforementioned reasons. Ground and Flying sort of tend to "go in" on each other rely heavily on revenge killing momentarily blocking the opponent's momentum. Running Landorus-I instead of Landorus-T is pretty bad since Excadrill and other physical attackers will just have that much easier of a time.

    GHOST: SPOOKY SCARY SKELETONS (Gengar says Hi to non-Psychic variants)
    Trevenant is very good being neutral to Sludge Wave. Froslass can force it out and set up spikes for the Ground matchup. Jellicent can tank a hit if you so choose to run it, but that's about it. Ghost kind of has trouble getting its own momentum going while not doing much to stop the opponent's momentum; I don't think it really has a great matchup regardless of Landorus-I.

    GRASS: If you beat a monoflying with monograss, the Monoflying player has fucked up real bad. Also, Sludge Wave and HP Ice
    It's not running Sludge Wave + Psychic, so most likely something on Grass will be able to deal with it. Flying bones Grass and you have to be making very bad plays to lose. It's practically the same for Grass against Ground. I'm not really super familiar with these matchups though.

    GROUND: See Grass. Mamoswine and Donphan carry Ice Shard tho, Gastro runs IB.
    Ice Beam often fails to KO from full, but Landorus-I often takes SR damage anyway. Ground v. Ground/Flying is just one of those match ups where Pokemon tend to go in with a lot of revenge killing and trading.

    ICE: This might be monoflying's worst matchup outside of the mirror. Weavile still shreks the entire Flying type (Quiet down, Moltres). Focus Blast is Lando's best friend here, but those have a tendency to miss a lot and you only get 8 of them
    They have a tendency to miss and to not get fired at all due to a lot of Ice Shard and Froslass switch ins. Any random Scarf Pokemon ruins your day. Flying and Ground have nothing to switch in to legitimately strong Ice attacks. Even Skarmory struggles with Icicle Crashes + SR + Hail. Flying still has Skarmory, so Weavile and Mamoswine aren't perfectly unstoppable, but I digress.

    NORMAL: Focus Blast for those that are not half flying, HP Ice or Rock Slide for those that are, Dragonite for Chansey and Blissey.
    Chansey, Blissey, AV Meloetta, Porygon2, etc. all wall or force it out really well. HP Ice is pretty weak against Flying types being only 2x effective. It's meant for 4x effective situations like Gliscor, other Landoruses, and Dragonite. Again, Rock Slide isn't proven to be effective nor common. Dragonite cannot OHKO Chansey without Superpower, which isn't viable due to EQ and Fire Punch being so much more viable in a metagame where Steel has Aegislash. Again, Focus Blast misses a lot and Mega Lopunny can revenge-kill with Ice Punch, not needing to worry about being outsped due to Fake Out.

    POISON: E A R T H P O W E R (Psychic for Tentacruel and Wheezing)
    Psychic for Tentacruel. Anyway, Ground wins this matchup pretty well anyway. It has Nidoking, Gastrodon, and Mega Camerupt as viable checks/counters to Wheezing. Golbat, Crobat, and Gengar all deserve mentions.

    PSYCHIC: Cresselia, M-Gallade, M-Garde, Starmie, ect. can all handle Lando pretty well.
    Starmie, Mega Gallade, and Mega Gardevoir are not particularly great against Landorus-I, at least when compared with the likes of Bronzong, Latios, and Latias who you completely missed. Mega Gallade is decent at least for outspeeding and having a decent offensive presence.

    ROCK: E A R T H P O W E R
    It makes the Flying matchup difficult, but once Landorus-I is out of the way Flying will struggle. Cradily can tank hits, especially with Sandstorm up. Mega Diancie carries protect for safe Mega Evolution and outspeeds Landorus-I to deal a very sizable chunk of damage.

    STEEL: E A R T H P O W E R. Skarm is still a bitch. Defensive M-Scizor can still wall it for a while, but not forever.
    Ground has the advantage anyway. On Flying Landorus-I makes the matchup particularly difficult, but Pokemon such as Thundurus and Mega Charizard X also make it difficult.

    WATER: As @EqualizeR pointed out, unboosted Azumarill Aqua Jet does not OHKO, and Water (Outside of Rain) lacks the speed and/or revenge killers to deal with Lando. IN RAIN, however, Azu CAN revenge with AJet, and M-Swampert with 184 Speed EVs does outspeed and gets an easy OHKO
    Suicune can set up with Calm Mind. Any STAB Water attack or decently powerful Ice Beam works. Gyarados works wonders too and is extremely viable. Slowing (AV or not) and AV Slowbro also check Landorus-I and are definitely not bad by any stretch of the imagination.

    If you need to use capital letters, bold, italics, color, and underline just so we can figure out your argument, there's a good chance that you weren't very clear and should probably clean up how you structured your post. All that formatting makes it borderline unreadable to be honest. Lines like "ROCK: E A R T H P O W E R" aren't good arguments in that they aren't. They argue nothing at all. I would recommend typing less and slowing down to think of how your points fit together. It would result in much more comprehensive and complete arguments.

    For now I'm going to refrain from saying my stance on banning or not banning Landorus-I, but I definitely have my own opinion on the matter.
     
    Dominique-XLR and Edna like this.
  4. E.T.

    E.T. METAMORPHOSIS! Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader Super Moderator Server Administrator Articles Leader

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    Notable matchups where Lando-i makes a big difference:

    Ground vs Fighting:
    Nothing switches into Lando-i. Unless Keldeo or Mega Gallade is on the field, something probably dies.
    Flying vs Poison:
    Between Earth Power and Psychic, there is very little Poison can do. Ice Wind Gengar or Scarf Nidoking for revenging is about as good as it can do.
    Flying vs Rock:
    Between Earth Power and Focus Blast, there is very little Rock can do. There's not even much to revenge kill with either.
    Flying vs Steel:
    Between Earth Power and Focus Blast (sounding like a broken record here). Steel can try to revenge kill with Megagross (if it has mega'd already).
    Flying vs Fire:
    Stallbreaker Talonflame can technically switch in if SR aren't up, but then it can't Roost because of Earth Power, so it won't do much except a little damage or a burn. Best option again is revenge killing; probably with CB Talonflame or a scarf user.
    Ground vs Grass:
    If Lando-i has Sludge Wave or Psychic, then Grass can probably play around it. However, if it has Sludge Wave and Psychic, Lando-i can be a big problem. For revenge-killing, Serperior can do up to 85% with LO Leaf Storm, Mega Sceptile can possible OHKO with Leaf Storm, and LO Abomasnow can OHKO with Ice Shard.
    Flying or Ground vs Dark:
    Nothing wants to switch into Focus Blast except Sableye and Spiritomb, but they both get crushed by Earth Power. Even Mandibuzz is 2HKO'd after SR. Sharpedo and Weavile can be used for revenge kills though.
    Flying or Ground vs Fairy:
    If played well, Lando-i usually gets at least one or two kills vs Fairy thanks to Sludge Wave. Mega Diancie can only do up to 80% with Moonblast, and Azumarill can't switch into Sludge Wave.

    Basically, the common theme here is that Landorus-I lacks switch-ins which creates lopsided matches for Flying and to a lesser extent Ground. Revenge killing isn't a reliable method for dealing with Landorus-I because it can simply switch out when you try to revenge it only to come back to KO something else later. I only considered an attacking set with Earth Power, Focus Blast, Sludge Wave, and Psychic, which works great for Flying, but Ground also has the option to use Gravity which makes Earth Power deadlier and Focus Blast more accurate. Due to having no safe switch-ins for several matchups in which Lando-i's team would likely otherwise be at a disadvantage or be at least neutral, I think Landorus-I is too much for Monotype and should be banned.
     
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  5. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Ok time to put my input for this:

    I'll discuss mainly of one set because it is in my opinion what makes Landorus-I broken at the moment in monotype

    Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Sheer Force
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    IVs: 0 Atk
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Psychic/Sludge Wave
    - Earth Power
    - Gravity
    - Focus Blast

    This set is really all you need in monotype. I like to play it in monoground, that way I give all the team a boost in accuracy and allow ground moves to be spammable. Gravity also negates Air balloon and Levitate, making it even harder to take down.

    Landorus has a fantastic speed tier in 101, allowing it to outspeed all base 100 (ie: scarf victini after one drop, Charizard X, Jirachi etc).
    Gravity turns some matchup really easy such as Monosteel or monofire, where you click Gravity, and then you get 3 kills if nobody is faster then you with Earth Power ( and Focus Blast for Ferrothorn). Sludge wave can be useful if you want to hit mega altaria super effectively and psychic can help against monofighting ( Hawlucha, Conkeldurr).

    In terms of check, Cresselia can be good, Latwins, Dragonite ( if multiscale intact), AV meloetta and AV slowking but they're not that used and some have no way of recovering, meaning Landorus can just switch out and continue after to sweep.

    I guess sets like Calm Mind and Rock Polish can be used, but I find them inferior to Gravity since Monotype is a heavily offensive metagame.

    Another interesting set for Monoflying could be the choice scarf with uturn, Earth Power, Focus Blast and Sludge wave, getting surprise kills on victini, zard x +1 speed and serperior is always nice. It also gives momentum which is always appreciated with rocks support and a volt turn core ( thundurus-t is a good partner)

    Anyway, in my opinion Landorus-I is too much for this tier and needs to go
     
  6. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Since everyone seem to be ok with it, Landorus-I will be banned from Monotype. Its sheer power combined with perfect movepool and good stats makes it very hard to counter. It's been a dominating force and is way too good in the metagame. The ban will take effect soon on the server and thanks for participating!
     
    E.T., sulcata and Joeypals!! like this.
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