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November/December/January ORAS LU Potential Suspect Discussion

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Celestial Phantom, Oct 31, 2015.

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  1. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    LU -> OU
    Seismitoad

    UU -> LU
    Porygon2
    Aggron
    Vaporeon
    Celebi
    Klefki

    NU -> UU
    Magneton

    LU -> UU
    Sharpedo

    LU -> NU
    Escavalier
    Camerupt
    Masquerain
    Shuckle

    NU -> LU
    Archeops
    Audino
    Sigilyph
    Golbat
    Drapion
    Malamar
    Rotom-C

    Side note that there might be one or two things possibly that were overlooked in doing the stats, as they were done manually this time, so we'll let you know if something is added as a drop or rise later.

    Alright then, so apparently as you might have noticed it has been decided that we are going forward with more of a 3 month cycle than 2 months from here forward to see how that works out for tiering. These are the changes for the next 3 months.

    OU for whatever reason likes the water frog, so that rose unexpectedly meaning we lose a good SR setter, bulky water absorb type, and useful pivot Pokemon. Seismitoad was decently used before, and with it gone it'll be interesting to see what people might use instead now.

    As well on a bigger note, both Sharpedo and Magneton have risen to UU. Sharpedo was a one of the biggest threats, and arguably it could have been a suspect due to just how strong it was unless you carried really bulky Pokemon as depending on the set it ran Physical or Special could steamroll entire teams effortlessly. I don't think anyone will actually miss it too much. Magneton is a bit more surprising, but Mag has always been a very useful pivot, and it's ability to inflict damage will be missed.

    As far as drops go, P2 is back (much to everyone's disdain I bet, as I bet we were all enjoying the time it was gone in the metagame), Celebi and Klefki have both dropped down again as well. Celebi should honestly be a strong offensive powerhouse both physical and specially, and fills many support roles too. Expect this to make a huge impact for the time being, and Klefki will be a useful pivot for spike setting, good typing, and overall annoyance like it was last time. Vaporeon is back, and it was very god last time it was here, and it will probably pick up where it was last time, only now that Celebi is here, it'll be more set up bait for Celebi users. And finally, Aggron is back (AGGRON SMASH), and as such Mega Aggron comes with it. Aggron isn't such a big deal since Tyrantrum does what it does better, but Mega Aggron is going to be a very tough wall for people to break.

    All in all, a lot of things that favor stall or defensive based teams has returned to the tier, which might mitigate the fact people dislike the offensive paced game LU has become. I don't fully expect all of these to stay, and we'll give things a little bit of time to get used before starting out and suggesting potential suspects.

    Also, be in store as we have an LU Ladder challenge in the works, so be sure to watch for that.
     
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  2. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I promised myself to talk about this if it stayed in LU post-shifts, and as it's still here, I feel like now might be a good time to bring it up.


    [​IMG]

    Mega Banette. To be completely honest, I'm surprised it wasn't suspected before Froslass, and that's because of the principal reasoning as to why Froslass went: Hazard setting + nearly guaranteed to take one Pokemon out with it due to Icy Wind + Destiny Bond. While Froslass was able to set up some hazards to support her team later in the game, Banette is a much stronger Pokemon than the Snorunt evolution with a combination of simply two traits: Prankster, which allows it to bypass the passive ways one could have gotten past Froslass (Toxic, Will-O-Wisp, phazing in the forms of Roar and Whirlwind) via Taunt along with taking down a threat with Destiny Bond, and a whopping Base 165 Attack that does a great deal of damage on Pokemon that aren't the most physically bulky or resist its moves. To highlight main potential, I will list the most common set from October. I personally prefer a set with Taunt as it allows it to laugh at Pokemon such as Alomomola, (the incoming) Porygon2, Vaporeon, and other giant walls.

    Banette @ Banettite
    Nature: Adamant
    Ability: Frisk/Insomnia (both have their uses, your pick as to what you want)
    EVs: 176 HP/252 Atk/80 Spd
    Moves:
    -Destiny Bond
    -Will-O-Wisp
    -Knock Off
    -Sucker Punch

    These specific EVs allow it to hit 206 Speed and 313 HP. I'm not really sure what these EVs allow it to do, so someone could touch up on that for me. The nice thing about Mega Banette's movepool (which really, you only would ever need those 4 moves, Taunt, Shadow Claw, Shadow Sneak, and maybe Protect) is it's easy to toy around with it and get exactly what you need to pass threats. With these walls coming in along with the rises (aside from Audino, I'll put that in the wall category), I predict Taunt will become a really popular move -- and why wouldn't it? The only thing coming in that it can't deal with is Klefki, and that's only an annoyance if it has Thunder Wave instead of Toxic. I'd get into the offensive side of things, but again, 165 Base Attack. I really don't need to pull out a calculator to show how hard it can hit things with Knock Off, Sucker Punch, and Shadow Claw/Sneak.

    Long story short, I feel like this thing should be the first suspect of this cycle. Of course, it's early in the cycle so maybe I'm overreacting, but time will tell what's really broken.

    Aside from my concern about Mega Banette, the changes look pretty nice and will make Emboar a bit less spammy I think, which is always nice.
     
  3. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Uh...what? Of all the things that are factored in the tier, Pory2, Metagross, Celebi, Klefki, Zoroark, Tyrantrum, Dragalage, Noivern, Cloyster, Emboar, Exploud, Goodra, Mega Aggron (now)...you suggest Mega Banette?

    Well of course it wasn't done before Froslass, why? Well for one, it doesn't set up hazards, so it's not doing anything once it dies unlike Froslass provided support for, second is that you don't really lead with it, nor does it have a way to switch in unless something you have dies, oh and probably the most important factor ever: PRE MEGA IT DOESN'T GET PRANKSTER PRIORITY OR THE SPEED BOOST. That's a very, very big factor that hampers Mega Banette, and why most of the time anyone trying to use it is forced to run Protect to safely get it to a Mega Evolution because it suffers from the frail Ghost defenses so it's not taking a hit, also it takes up a Mega Evolution spot in a meta where all the other Megas are arguably better suited for jobs except this gimmicky Mon. The difference between it and Froslass pretty large considering Froslass was guaranteed to do something because of Focus Sash keeping it alive even if you know you could OHKO it, where as Banette's not actually guaranteed a thing. Choosing between Wisp, Taunt, DB, offensive moves, and almost having to have Protect in certain cases to guarantee a safe Mega in terms of team supporting, and taking up a coveted Mega Evolution spot is really pushing it. Also despite the fact it has 165 attack, without Stab on KO or Sucker Punch, it's not actually scaring most things with moderate bulk. I love you Joey <3
     
  4. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    Uncalled for tone CP, but nonetheless I agree about Mega Banette. Priority Dbond can be an annoyance but that's about it, it's not really guaranteed to take out most defensive or offensive pokemon due to a lot of pokemon having difficulty actually KOing it thanks to its decent bulk when invested, Scald being a problem etc. The difference between speed and prankster, and the differences in bulk between Froslass and Banette, is pretty enormous as it forces Banette to only be able to deal with strong wallbreakers where Froslass was able to be a problem for any pokemon in the tier. Banette is honestly no stronger than other priority users in the tier and I think her current position in B- tier in viability reflects her current position, a solid niche mon that can sometimes be annoying/strong, like other mons in that tier. It's a little too easy to take advantage of her weaknesses in the low speed and poor coverage/reliance on priority, but she can be strong in the right situations.

    Also I would argue Emboar actually gets better in the tier with the loss of key threats to it and not gaining anything that properly checks it (Vap is pretty unreliable at checking it). I would honestly argue Emboar is worth a suspect at this point, I already thought so before this tier shift and things have gotten only more favourable for it.
     
  5. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    I'm feeling that the first one should probably be Porygon2 and no sidestepping it this time as a glue holding things together. It takes a lot to actually just try to KO it, otherwise you are playing around it through Toxic and hoping to land a Knock Off to neuter it. Especially with the other Walls in the tier that help it along (Alomomola, Vaporeon, Klefki, Gligar, Chesnaught, etc.) being around it'll probably be even more potent in its role than last time, and it was pretty absurd last time around.
     
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  6. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Not to mention how good tri attack is in general bc everything will be afraid to be fzn, para, or burned. On something that forces as many switches as p2 does, most offensive teams will not be able to find a good switch in while p2 walls basically anything not SE or boosted. Considering that charge beam is very viable and we have quite a few things to switch into a knock off and/or use heal bell i would really support Porygon2 to get the boot. It is always a net positive because it walls so much of the tier and has the best offensive presence of any wall (yes including slowking)
     
  7. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    100% supporting a P2 suspect/ban.

    I'm also thinking Celebi has the potential to be stupid, a lot like Mew was in UU. Its sheer versatility makes it unpredictable and it does everything it does so well. I think as of now it is arguably the best offensive grass type in the tier and also happens to beat a lot of common walls, including most of the new drops.
     
  8. NaCl

    NaCl noided, noided

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    Celebi prolly should be too much for the tier, it has a lot of utilities stuffs, recovery, boosting capabilities with a huge coverage and Natural Cure to recover from status problems, also having 100/100/100 base defs means that can be really resilient and difficult to revengekill, definetely a threat to watch for in LU.
     
  9. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    I'd like to talk about Zoroark, who has to me always felt like a borderline case but with the new event it gained Sludge Bomb, turning its special (mainly Nasty Plot) sets into something I think may be far too much for the tier. Zoroark has always been really versatile with a ridiculous amout of viable/valuable sets - Scarf, Band, Specs, NP, Mix LO/Mix without LO, SD, etc, most of which can also very easily vary their coverage. Zoroark gaining Sludge Bomb is a bit like Greninja gaining Gunk Shot/Low Kick, it removes several pokemon from the already quite limited pool of checks to it, in both cases Fairies mainly. The pool of checks to Zoroark is kind of even further limited to bulky fightings like Hitmontop now, with even those being screwed by the occasional set with Extrasensory. I think we may be at a point where the effort one has to expend to check Zoroark and its insane amount of sets may be considered unreasonable.

    RE Celebi, I do think boosting sets could be a problem, but I'm a little surprised people are reacting to Celebi as such now after it spent such a long time in the tier and felt pretty much healthy then. I don't think the tier has changed that much.

    Also yeah P2 is as stupid as it ever was, no opposition from me.
     
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  10. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    One of the consistencies of Zoroark being around is that every Fairy pretty much hard walled it thanks tot heir bulk, and it not being able to deal damage to it unless it wants to die, but with Sludge Bomb now being an active choice on mixed or NP/Specs sets, it gives it ammo that probably push it over the edge. It already is a ridiculously good Pokemon with access to a variety of attacks and boosting moves, also having the coveted Knock Off and Sucker Punch, as well as enough coverage to generally 2hko "most" type threats to it, but fairies were always a hard counter to it as well as some useful fighting types like Hitmon(lee/top) with Mach dishing it defeat, but I'm seeing Zoroark should become a suspect this round upon Sludge Bomb release.

    Celebi was in LU previously at a time where it probably was a more healthy option of choice in the metagame, but many threats that counteracted against it aren't here anymore like: Mega Bee, Honchkrow, Azelf, Yanmega, Mega Pidgeot, Porygon-Z, Starmie, Sharpedo, Rotom-H, etc. I have tried Celebi already, and it's a very impressive Pokemon, though I'm not inclined to go outright unhealthy/broken right now. There are solid options to dealing with it, and it fears pretty much anything with U-Turn which can be found on several Pokemon in the tier. It is an automatic top tier threat though, don't get me wrong, but I'd rather see where it goes before immediately saying it's unhealthy, but it'll be a top priority given a week or so I bet of testing it out.

    My idea of going would probably be P2, then look at Celebi/Zoroark (when sludge bomb is added to it on the server), then probably have a discussion relating to Mega Aggron depending what it influences the metagame this tier shift. After would probably be a good place to pick up on other suggestions.
     
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  11. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    So I've been playing lots of LU for the last couple of weeks, and I'd like to bring up 3 things for discussion: Zoroark, Emboar and Drought.

    Zoroark has been mentioned before already and I think it deserves a suspect, Sludge bomb or no Sludge bomb. It's extremely versatile, can run a plethora of sets and has a great movepool allowing it to run specific moves for its counters, but to top it all is it's ability. Imposter makes it impossible to prepare for properly, fairy types do check it somewhat (for now) but the only relevant fairy in the tier is Aromatisse (Granbull is bad, Mega Audino takes a lot from +2 Focus Blast) and it can just U-turn on it anyway. Bulky fighting types likes Hitmontop can check it depending on it's set unless it's running Extrasensory, and Focus Blast means Scrafty/Pangoro fail to check it as well. Can't really think of anything else, so only way to deal with it is revenge kill with Mach punch Hitmons or scarf mons like Flygon/Tyrantrum/Emboar after sacking something to it. So yea it doesn't really need Sludge bomb at this point to wreck the tier.

    Next is Emboar, we all know it's obnoxious. Only thing that's a somewhat reliable check to it is Alomolola, and it doesn't like getting crippled by WoW at all. Scarf/Band sets are the most common ones obviously, and both work extremely well, Scarf destroys offense and Band demolishes Stall. I'm pretty sure I don't need to say anything more on Emboar as it has been discussed a lot already; it has it's shortcomings but what it brings to the table in terms of sheer offense isn't healthy for LU.

    Drought is stupid, but it's getting suspected in UU and it's extremely likely to get banned so not gonna go into that :^]
     
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  12. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Although I do believe that Emboar is extremely powerful and can be obnoxious
    to face, I think this statement can apply more to Tyrantrum's effect on the metagame (specifically Scarf variants). The huge strain on teambuilding is also immense, making HO teams required to run stuff like Alo and Tangrowth. While with Emboar, they can bring checks like Fletchinder.
     
  13. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    How exactly Fletch checks? At best it can revenge kill, which is different from checking.

    Zoroark is dumb yeah it should be suspected, good offensive, good speed, one of the best movepool of the game ( SD/NP/Sucker Punch/Knock off/fthrower sbomb focus miss uturn etc etc)

    Celebi is a pain to face and kind of centralize. Access to NP/SD/support sets, amazing stats for LU and whatever you need. I'ld prefer it to go tbh.

    If Drought don't get banned in UU then yeah i agree with a suspect, a lot of good pokemon such as Shiftry, Victree etc etc can be problematic in the tier with +2 speed.

    Moltres is a pokemon so underated atm though it has amazing stats to use in LU, Hurricane and Fire Blast hit like a truck and hp grass helps with Rhyperior. But I seem to recall it was suspected in XY and didn't got banned. Anyway, it's an amazing pokemon that should be less overlooked imo.

    I used to abuse Emboar Scarf for a long period but at a rate I found it less productive than it used to be. It's way more pressured by its item in LU than it used to be in NU. It's still an excellent mon with huge offensive stats. I wouldn't mind it being suspected.

    I've used Mega Aggron for a while also and the curse rest talk set is a pain to deal with for a lot of mons. Unless you have a moltres/Dtail Fire Blast Slowking this thing can turn into a deadly sweeper and most of the time it will wall most physical attacks ( even SE ) due to filter.
     
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  14. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Im with Zoro suspect. Might be silly with sludge bomb but it is pretty gross right now with illusion. People need to know what the hell they are playing against and there are mindgames inside mindgames inside a shoe rn
     
  15. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt.

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    A bit overdue, but Smeargle is being unbanned in LU due to Baton Pass being gone from UU. Should be able to use it for all your heart desires shortly on the server.
     
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  16. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Just a heads up, I'm going to start a suspect on Aggronite in a few days to see how it can impact round 1 of the tournament we are running, and give it a length that fits through at least round 1.



    I am fine with this, but now I want to give a realistic look at Sticky Web if we're allowed to ban moves now, and people have considered wanting a Knock Off suspect at least at this level (though all the abusers were broken anyway with or without the move mostly). I mean Shucky is a bit underrated at the job, but if we're freeing Smeargle who gets a 100% sleep move with it and a lot more than Shuckle (SPEED). Would like to hear opinions on that.

    If anyone has an opinion, thought on Celebi, be sure to post in regards to it. We're looking at putting it up for suspect, so wanna see what support that suspect might have before we get to it.
     
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  17. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    Smeargle has been a stapple in all Sticky Web offense teams when it was allowed ( Specs Boomburst Exploud+ a ghost like froslass since Doublade rose ) and a bunch of pokemon who can decimate the team. Add to this the possibility to Spore/Nuzzle/Magic Coat, Smeargle is by far one of the best setter of the game.

    However with the rise of Defensive Flygon and other Defoggers, I feel like it's questionnable whether it's broken or not. Add to this the fact LU is already very slow ( bar Jolteon, Moltres and Noivern) all hard hitters are relatively slow, so I don't know if webs change /that/ much.


    Celebi is a pokemon I'ld like to suspect because it's just way too bulky for the tier, can use NP sets and just sweep unprepared teams and its counters are also very limited ( AV druddigon can work but once set is revealed it's over for you) Having access to Twave, SR, huge bulk, good offensive movepool makes me believe Celebi needs to go.


    On another note, I'ld like to suspect the like of Exploud. While it's true av slowking, Soundproof Abomasnow, AV metagross can check it, I found Exploud to be cancerous in the tier. Even stuff like Steelix take up to 40% which doesn't make them any way a counter. The only true counter is lord AV regice which obviously sucks currently ( thanks for ladder tour to make me realize it's viable a minimum at least)
     
  18. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Here is what I feel about some of the mentioned suspects:

    [​IMG]

    Mega Aggron:
    I really don't feel that Mega Aggron is that broken or unhealthy in the current LU state. It is extremely bulky and has a very good offensive presence as well. It has very good 70/230/80 defenses and it's Steek typing with the ability Filter are all very good attributes that should not be overlooked. But when I look at the current meta, I see a tier filled with Fire and Ground moves that are being spammed by powerful mons. This really does not favor Mega Aggron, as it job is really to tank hits for your team. The Curse set is very good, but then again it gets shut down by powerful Fire type special attackers in Delphox, Moltres and Houndoom. It all boils down to proper teambuilding and making sure your team has proper checks and counters to it (which they do exist). It's sets are quite linear, which makes this task even easier for the opposing team. It's extremely good, but not banworthy imo.


    [​IMG]

    Celebi
    I agree on a Celebi suspect, but I also wouldn't agree if it were banned. Celebi can run a multitude of sets that can vary from a hazard setter to a special/physical sweeper. It is defintely the jack of all trades, master of all pokemon in LU atm, but I find it adds a positive influence in the tier. It is able to deal with the many fighting types of the tier, and can break many if the best defensive cores in LU like SlowGrowth and Aromamola. It's Grass/Psychic typing helps it in some cases, giving it 7 weaknesses to some of the most common types in LU in Dark, Fire, Flying and Ice. It has a huge role compression for any team due to it's expansive movepool. I can why it's being suspected, but still not convinced it's banworthy yet.


    [​IMG]

    Exploud
    I really disagree with an Exploud ban for various reasons. Yes, we all know Specs Boomburst hits like a truck and 2HKO's the whole tier, but Exploud's really average speed really holds it back from wallbreaking which it is relied upon doing most of the time. Normal typing also does not help it, leaving it with no resistances, with it's low defenses, it means that it can die pretty quickly before dealing damage to opposing team. I don't believe the resurgence of Sticky Web really breaks Exploud, as there are many ways of removing hazards in LU, leaving those teams in the dust due to their reliance on the move. Exploud really isn't broken in my eyes.

    Will talk about Sticky Web and my own nomination later
     
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