November/December/January ORAS NU Potential Suspects Discussion

Changes:

NU -> UU
Magneton

NU -> LU
Archeops
Audino
Sigilyph
Golbat
Drapion
Malamar
Rotom-C

LU -> NU
Escavalier
Camerupt
Masquerain
Shuckle

Complete Tier Changes

Ouch. We've lost NU's biggest threats this cycle, offensive and defensive alike. Among the drops, we have gained two slow but extremely hard hitters in Camerupt and Escavalier, along with two Sticky web setters in Masquerain and Shuckle.

These tier changes are bound to make NU more interesting, and the truly 'never-used' mons might get a chance to rise and shine now that most of the overpowered threats are gone. Exciting times ahead of us!

 

Still are some OP things like Viri, Registeel, Vivillon, etc. Looks like we'll never get back Seismitoad (went to OU) either. Also does Escavalier beat Vivillon?

Spoiler

I'm still convinced LU is skewed by poor usage. >:I

 

As I said the major threats NU left and I do not think Camerupt and Excavelir will greatly centralize tier, the only thing that still bothers is Registeell that in my humble opinion is extrememante hard to defeat the vast majority of UN mons, suspect ban the Vivillion? kkkk kidding XD

 

I have 1 thing to say,

Ban vivillion.

 

Looking at its ability Overcoat, "Effect: Prevents a Pokémon with this ability from taking damage from weather effects, and from being affected by Cotton Spore, Poison Powder, Powder, Rage Powder, Sleep Powder, Spore, Stun Spore, and Effect Spore."

So assuming Assault Vest set, yes it would (barring confusion hax): +1 252 SpA Vivillon Hurricane vs. 174 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 135-159 (41.6 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO, 252+ Atk Escavalier Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vivillon: 256-303 (85 - 100.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Also, I'm going to disagree with the wording of Draciel's statement.

No, we lost some of the biggest threats (both offensively and defensively). Here are some of the biggest threats that remained in NU.
Sawk
Registeel
Vileplume
Gurdurr
Spiritomb (aka "Thing that walls Sawk and, to an extent, Gurdurr")
Togetic (aka "Main thing that stops the fighting hoes")
Hitmonchan
Virizion
Mismagius

Offensively, we still retained the best 3 fighting types in the tier while losing several answers (Audino, Sigilyph, Golbat) and picking up none in the process. So while we may have lost some of the top threats, we still have plenty more that will ultimately cause a disproportionate boon in usage for Pokemon such as Togetic and Spiritomb. Lanturn should also get a boost too as a secondary partner for one of the fighting types, though as of now I'm willing to say Eelektross still beats it in every way except for beating new drop Mega Camerupt. This cycle should also be interesting for Virizion too, as there's a good amount of Pokemon that left that dealt with it, but at the same time, two huge threats in Escavalier and Mega Camerupt have dropped down against it.

For NU, it's a tad too early for me to tell, but looking at the bigger picture, I'm predicting the Top 3 suspects for this cycle will be Sawk, Mega Camerupt, and either Togetic or Spiritomb (something defensive is going this cycle, I feel that much). But yeah, that's my view on things right now.

 

Finally Magneton is gone from NU....

I don't know how I feel about Mega Camerupt yet, definitely something I am going to test out to get a verdict on.

I can see Vivillion be suspected at one point though however. Although a new check in Escavalier entered the tier, it has plenty of opportunities to setup and Hurricane spam is soo hard to switch into.

These tier shifts are really interesting, really changed the tier around a bit... will need to play more to see other potential suspects.

 

I swear over the last 3 months, I only used Archeops on one team for only about 2 weeks....maybe three....in August....where it's overall usage was the lowest of the last 3 months, I fully swear.

Though Draciel is right, NU loses some of the largest threats in NU that without at least 1 on the team, your teams wouldn't probably be able to function with. Magneton and Rotom-C were both very great Volt Turn threats that really didn't have much in terms of fully walling their coverage, so you would have to handle them based on where they lacked appeal (Magneton's speed and usually needing to be a choice locked Pokemon), and Rotom-C's frailness to pick on. Sigilyph was the essential win condition vs Stall and honestly it could 2hko everything with its coverage moves, and some easy prediction, could sweep if you were smart with it. Audino was the bulkiest wall around, and well I still think it shouldn't have been NU lol, but now we aren't exactly forced to run CM users, the very few useful Taunt mons, or having just a really good Poison mon to beat it on teams if we didn't want to have it be such a huge defensive threat. Drapion will be missed, Malamar I don't see staying LU long, but hey we'll be without it for 3 months, so no need to actually have a Bug move, find a fairy type to deal with it, or hope your stat boosters can set up for it. The fact all these leave at once, I see it means those you listed Joey actually getting more time to shine, though implying Hitmonchan is a threat, but not listing Houndoom.

As far as drops go, Mega Camel just means reinforce having a good Water type like anyone should have on a team. Shuckle with it will be a powerful combination though of Sticky Web and it being able to set up Rocks for it, so Camel could run a full offensive set. Also, Escavalier will be a very strong Pokemon, we'll need to prepare our Heatmor for it.

I don't think I could actually call for something to be put into suspect immediately, especially because so much just created a fully new power vacuum at once that actually somewhat counter-balances each other that about 10 things will have to rise up into those spots that were lost. Would likely give a week or so to see how things actually settle out before doing something, we do have 3 months to work with.

 

Mega Camerupt is too slow for Sticky Web support, 20 base speed is almost unsalvageable (basically only Paralysis support or Trick Room helps it). That said it has one turn of base 45 speed, beats a lot of Electric types lacking HP Water as well as most Steel-types, and "ties" with Escavalier (whoever invests more speed EVs wins) plus its Fire Blast is obscenely powerful

Esca is a huge threat as the CB set does obscene damage but it gets checked by a lot of Pokemon if they can avoid Drill Run; still, probably better overall than Camerupt since its typing is really good (beats Non-HP Fire Psychics, Fairies, and Grasses straight up) but it's easier for Pokemon to warp their sets to threaten it so that might keep it in check (I would expect HP Fire Vileplumes instead of Sleep Powder or Aromatherapy for example)

I expect Lanturn to be the premier electric as it isn't free fodder for Mega Camerupt as Scald threatens most ground-types, walls Special Samurott, draws Grasses in to Volt Switch to Esca, and provides Heal Bell support for Escavalier who is rather vulnerable to Will-o-Wisp and Scald as well as freeing other offensive Pokemon from Paralysis

Could this be Mantine's time to shine??? Probably not but it does match up well against all the drops (nobody runs Return Escavalier anymore) as well as the non-Lanturn Water-types that might see (even) more usage now that Escavalier exists to really exploit opposing Grass-types

I will be completely flabbergasted if either Spiritomb or Togetic ever get suspected in ORAS NU lol. Wouldn't be surprised to see Escavalier suspect but I think everyone will just start running Fire coverage instead, so I actually expect a Mega Camerupt suspect first even though I think it's not as good in a vacuum since it's harder to justify random water coverage moves with Lanturn still in the tier to beat electrics, plus physical Water moves having really limited off-type distribution compared to Fire Punch

 

Happy with these shifts, makes me wanna play a few games on the server. Rotom-C was pretty strong, I don't mind seeing it gone but I'll miss it because it was so damn splashable. Mala/Drap being gone at the same time makes me pretty sad but psychics are more spammable now.

Mushy can probably wall like 90% of the tier now and just set up, so put it on your team for free wins. Doesn't have to have a CM stalemate with MDino either, although you'd win eventually anyways because psyshock.

 

Mega Camerupt is pretty gross, don't run anything on your team that can't threaten it (which is a long list of support Pokemon...) if you don't have a Water-type special sponge that isn't Lanturn to beat it

Escavalier is fine but there are a lot of physically defensive Bug resists, HP Fire is easy to splash, Assvest isn't strong enough to really wall-break, and I hope you're faster than your opponent's Mega Camerupt or you're going to be in a world of hurt

Vileplume is really good, it was probably good before but Drapion and Sigilyph leaving is a pretty significant boost to it. Too bad it's weak to Mega Camerupt and HP Fire is a bit lacking against Escavalier

Rampardos might actually be good in this tier for once if offensive teams are going to be running Mega Camerupt and/or Esca and Shuckle's Sticky Web support is reliable enough to count on (I think it may actually be)

 

So after a few days of playing around with the recent changes. these are my thoughts:

Escavalier is definitely the best drop NU had this cycle, it's pretty amazing and can run lefties/AV/Band sets and with it's great bulk can be a pain to take down (unless random fire moves). The AV set does miss out on reliable recovery which somewhat hinders it's ability to switch in multiple times to sponge special attacks. The Banded set is godly as expected and works great with slow volt-turn support.

Mega Camerupt is another powerful stall-breaker which threatens defensive teams a lot, but it's kinda meh against offense unless Trick Room teams. TR is an extremely deadly strategy in NU now because of the number of slow but powerful wallbreakers we have in the tier; Mega camel, Escavalier, Clawitzer, Mawile, Ursaring, Hariyama, Cofagrigus to name a few.

Now onto something that's been bugging me for a while: Vivillon. It might not look /that/ threatening on paper but it's actually pain to face. Yes, it has it's share of checks and even counters, but Sleep Powder is useful incapacitating those. My main problem with Vivillon is how easily spammable Hurricane is (remember Mega Pidgeot and what made it broken in UU? it might not be 100% accurate in this case but 91% accuracy isn't bad either). With the right amount of luck it can hax it's way past most of it's checks (unless registeel, that would require too much luck [:) so I wouldn't be opposed to a suspect in future.

 

I appreciate the pun, @Draciel aha.

As far as Vivi goes, I wouldn't be opposed to it, but I wouldn't exactly push for it either as I'm rather indifferent on the Pokemon, but maybe that's because my team has a few answers naturally built in (Rocks, AssVest Kecleon aka LORD, AssVest Eelektross, Cinny if it hasn't boosted). Right now, Vivi is probably at its most potent, with no really relevant Grass types around (why would they be rn? Mega Camel + Escavalier) except for Virizion (which it beats via Hurricane anyway, physical variants with SE give it problems pre-boost) and a select number of walls being present (Registeel being the main one). While it does have answers in Escavalier and Mega Camel to some degree, especially in Esca's case due to Overcoat, two Pokemon really isn't an answer. It does have stops before it boosts, but it has a good enough speed stat (304 if Timid) to where it doesn't have much trouble boosting. I personally feel indifferent, as I said, as I usually have something that can afford to be put to sleep, but I can see why many would consider it unhealthy.

 

Since the Baton Pass ban was implemented, we have decided to unban Combusken in NU. The main reason Combusken was banned was due to it's ability to baton pass Speed+BU/SD boosts to a teammate, and it was too damn good at that. But now that Bp isn't usable anymore, Combusken should be fine in NU again. I'll update the tier list in accordance with this, so enjoy our favorite fried chicken in NU once again :v

 

I wouldn't discredit a look a Vivillion. Accuracy boosts to Sleep Powder and Hurricane are always a plus, and it'll always have sash, so you have to break that by keeping up offensive pressure. That being said IF big if, given a free turn it's pretty hard to stop the sweep as long as it can sleep and power up when it wants or just blast things with Hurricane to confuse or some other move like Bug Buzz. I have few problems with it with certain teams, but it's pretty obvious you need to run something like Regirock, Registeel, Rhydon if you want a hard wall, that doesn't revolve around AssVest priority users and the like that are mostly made for gimmick niches. There is a lot that works against it, pre-set up, as well as the massive amount of decently good Priority users around. Most of the Rock or Steel types don't mind it, but are liable to be sleep fodder, but upon waking they can inflict damage, unless it's set up to some +3 or higher by chance. As well there's honestly a slew of good offensive threats that are faster than it, and you can only set up on something generally slower by that means. It pairs really well with something like Virizion though who beats Regirock, Rhydon, Registeel, practically all the steel types (sans Mawile in certain situations), as well as deals with threatening Priority users like Samurott or Piloswine too. Same can be said with pretty much any Fighting type paired with it, but Virizion beats most of what it wants out, while something like Hariyama or Gurdurr are slightly less reliable than it against certain other threats, but still can do the jobs too.

Mega Camel is pretty strong as heck, and like Magmortar being in the tier, they reinforce the idea you pretty much need a water type on your team if you want to at least have a solid check to it. It has a fair bit of bulk to it, the only obvious downside, is the fact it is slow, and without many resistances and only so many immunities, it's liable to actually take a very sizable chunk of HP from a decently good Offensive move. It isn't getting out of a lot of 1 on 1's unscathed unless the opponent is a defensive Pokemon most times, so it's not hard to follow up with a revenge/pick off kill. Unless of course we use our trusty healing wish Mesprits to fix that.

 

It is not very appealing, but Registeel can stop many physical / especias attackers, just as no one lets his Chansey in front of Conkeldurr because it would leave Registeel in front of an obvious threat? Its danger is not the ability to win, but the ability to not lose, the same goes for Mega Camerupt, is very crude 2HKO giving in a lot, and all those who could tip it is well provalvél the User M. cam has its 'counter check', as the Vivillion honestly always found appealing too much further with HP Fire, already saw many Vivilion leads simply sweep the entire opposing team but recenrecemente (own experience) that are saved to the middle of the game, and even with rocks in the field, she is able to honestly decide if she leave NU I'll use Butterfree :)

 

Camel is obnoxious yes, but I still feel like it's manageable even if you have a slightly offense-oriented team. It has solid bulk, but it's lack of resistances and awful speed means it's gonna lose a decent chunk of health everytime it tries switching in on anything, and with hazards up and no reliable recovery it gets worn down pretty quickly. Unless it's facing something with no offensive presence (Registeel etc) it's not getting out unscathed, and can be followed up with a swift revenge kill. But yea, if the community agrees on having a look into it I won't object to that.

Another mon I want to bring up for discussion, is Sneasel. Decent attack stat, amazing 115 speed, access to SD and amazing dual stab combo of Dark/Ice makes it very threatening and borderline broken in NU at the moment. It can actually run Band/LO SD/Eviolite SD, along with moves like Knock Off/Pursuit/Icicle Crash/Ice Shard/Low Kick which hits almost everything for solid damage. There are checks, best ones being Thick Fat Hariyama and Gurdurr, but they need to stay healthy to actually switch into it's attacks repeatedly (gurdurr has drain punch, but hariyama needs healing wish support). The SR weakness is a drawback, but very few mons can reliably stop Sneasel if it gets a +2 boost (Mach punch gurdurr is always great, scarfed fighting types like Sawk/Primeape do beat it but +2 Ice Shard does a hefty chunk to both). I feel like Sneasel has unmatched offensive potential in NU right now, and could be worth a look.

 

Escavalier and Super Camel definitely are too powerful for the tier.

Slightly surprisingly, Escavalier is actually way more broken. While camel can basically 2hko the meta (hp electric is very viable), Esca is ultimately more unhealthy because it is everything people hate about registeel but better. RSteel's main issue is that it can't use all the free turns it gets from forcing switches very efficiently. Esca does not have this problem at all. It is insanely hard to 1hko and can run band with very good Bug/Steel/Ground/dark coverage making it very difficult to counter. The thing is, while band is good for situational power, AV is even better bc it becomes an insanely bulky attacker with pursuit. This last aspect is key because of the sheer amount of special attackers it can switch in on safely and trap. It makes most psychics and special attackers unable to check mons throughout the match because of its ability to trap with almost impervious bulk. The ability to live hits on both spectrums, while still being one of the most offensively threatening mons in the tier, makes Esca too good a glue on teams. It is almost always able to retaliate with 120 bp stab and it is quite hard not to add to any type of team; be it offensive, defensive, or just bad.

Spoiler: By using Esca you can check/trap

Virizion Uxie Jumpluff Mesprit Wormadam Vivillon Mesprit Cinccino Mawile Cottonee Musharna Vileplume Haunter Accelgor Kangaskhan Granbull Registeel Clawitzer Klinklang Xatu Shuckle Claydol Sawsbuck Swoobat Lickilicky Bronzong Exeggutor Ninjask Mr. Mime Jinx Shiftry Mismagius Lilligant Masquerain Regirock

 

If by "slightly offensively oriented" you mean have literally zero supporting Pokemon that aren't water-type (no Cofagrigus, no Lickilicky, no Skuntank, no Uxie, no Trevenant, etc), then I guess that could be true? But otherwise any team remotely resembling anything balanced better have Gastrodon or maybe Mantine (though SR weak + having to handle Defog duty makes it a lot shakier) or it'll just be at a drastic disadvantage.
Also its typing is basically perfect to take advantage of the Electric-types in NU like Eelektross and Zebstrika so it's not dead weight even against those teams.
The problem is that it doesn't need to switch in on everything; it comes in relatively safely once, nukes a Pokemon, then later it comes in off a free switch and nukes something else.

I think Escavalier is much easier to handle just because it's easy to run HP Fire to dent it on basically everything it wants to counter (Grasses, Psychics, etc), it doesn't get the one (or more) turn of relative quickness that Mega Camerupt does before it Mega Evolves, and it's really vulnerable to Will-o-Wisp or Scald burns which just completely cripples it while Mega Camerupt switches in on Will-o-Wisps for free.

 

Now that Mega Camerupt is gone from NU, time to take a look at the other potential suspect mons in the tier: Vivillon, Sneasel, Escavalier and Virizion (??)

I've posted my thoughts on Vivillon and Sneasel already; Vivillon is something I find incredibly annoying due to it's almost perfectly accurate Hurricanes and their 30% confusion chance (fuck this move honestly). It might not look as threatening on paper as some other NU mons, but it certainly has the tools to beat and to an extent hax it's way past most of it's checks. Sleep powder also comes in handy to put it's opp to sleep and set up free QD, and after a few boosts it's pretty deadly. However it's not that hard to beat either, it can't switch in with SR up, if it's sash is broken it's pretty much crippled because of it's awful bulk, and if you manage to break it's sash somehow most priority moves can deal with it from ~50% health (Sneasel/Kanga/Kabutops etc.). So it needs Rapid spin/Defog support to come in safely, and Registeel/Regirock sort of hard-wall it even with Sleep powder. Magmortar is a solid offensive check with AV and Vital spirit unless you are unlucky and get confused from Hurricane as +1 Vivillon can easily 2HKO. So yeah this is up for discussion.

Sneasel is very threatening, I've explained why in my previous post and I still think it's borderline broken.

Escavalier has been mentioned a couple of times and I'm not really convinced it's /that/ broken. It's awful speed means it has to take a hit before doing anything back and against an offensive team it's losing a decent chunk of health before it can retaliate. It does have a good typing though and superb attack stat so it hits like a truck, and it can potentially dismantle defensive teams. However it's 4x fire weakness is the bane of it's existence, as multiple NU mons are starting to run HP fire as coverage move just to hit Esca (Mesprit/Uxie/Musharna/Tangrowth etc.) so it's doesn't exactly have 'free' switch-ins anymore. And it's running AV/CB almost all the time so no passive recovery with lefties, as a result it can't switch in recklessly even with it's impressive bulk. If anyone wants to convince me otherwise about this feel free to.

Virizion has been brought up multiple times in the past and has been a S-Tier NU mon for a while, and something that could be worth taking a look into. SD sets are extremely strong and it +2 Virizion is a huge threat. It still gets walled by specific mons depending on the coverage move it's running (Zen Headbutt/Stone Edge), and it lacks the raw attacking power to muscle it's way past defensive mons without a SD boost (which isn't hard to obtain but still) and sometimes even with it. Poor defensive stat means it's easily revenge killed, especially after it's fired off a CC. Defensive walls like Musharna/Uxie/Tangrowth can still live +2 LO Leaf blade/Close Combat easily and retaliate with Psyshock/Poison Jab respectively, and there's always Vileplume/Garbodor/Weezing if it's not running Zen headbutt as coverage. Hard it call it 'broken' as per se, but it's worth a discussion at least.

 

Yeah, Chatter is just plain stupid and deserves no place in a competitive game. I'd prefer it to be given the same treatment as Swagger/Evasion/1HKO and banned from existence, except for the fact that Chatot is probably the only thing that will ever be able to use it (even Smeargle can't) forever.

As for the others, I'd have to agree that Esca probably isn't broken. It's an amazing tank but it's too slow and there are just too many Pokemon in the tier that don't have to worry about it or who can easily take it down by running a fire move. Normally I would say this is centralizing, but considering how easily fire moves take it down and how much of the tier is afraid of fire, it's a small amount if any.

Sneasel I think has been explained pretty well. STABs+Low Kick makes nearly perfect coverage and can be complimented with setting up, priority, other random situational coverage moves, taunt, or plenty of other moves to get around its would-be checks and counters. It probably needs to go.

The V pair I'm not quite sure on. Both sides bring good arguments, but neither seems convincing. I think they both should be suspected, but not necessarily banned.