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Suspect Discussion - Porygon2 [Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Celestial Phantom, Nov 6, 2015.

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  1. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the possibility of banning Porygon2 from the ORAS LU metagame.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Porygon2 as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    Might as well get the ball rolling on opinions on P2, otherwise it'll just be another dead thread.

    Anyway, P2 is something from the past tier shifts of LU and has been in LU for a long time before recently moving up. It was always one thing or another that kept us from putting P2 off for so long to get it out of the way, but this time I'm not having any of that.

    So P2 is an excellent tank and one of the bulkiest if not THE bulkiest Pokemon in the tier. 85/90/95 defensive spread, with a 105 base attack, and the ability to use the Eviolite item makes it a truly formidable Pokemon. It also has two pretty useful abilities in Download and Trace, which can be used for different purposes to support a team. +1 Sp.Att P2 hits fairly hard, where as Trace can be used to turn other abilities against the user in P2's favor, so it's never a bad thing to use it. P2 also has a wide movepool that it can call upon various supporting and offensive moves to help a team in general. Whether it's using Toxic to stall other Pokemon, or Thunder Wave to cripple teams for an offensive front, access to Recover so its HP is almost never going to be below a certain point unless you force it in to take a hit. It has Foul Play to threaten offensive attack boosters, Tri Attack is just a normal STAB but with a useful bonus if it actives its ability, Ice Beam/Thunderbolt/Charge Beam just to provide a threat to various Pokemon weak to these moves.

    You won't see much else unless a team needs to hit very specific threats using P2 as a lure to bait them, or just get a surprise kill as it's capable of living many types of hits. It can function on a TR team as a setter, but it's a seldom used tactic, with the large group of slower Pokemon common to teams that, it might actually work in the opponents favor, but that set does exist as well.

    Simply put, P2 is the most offensive tank we have in the tier, that is near impossible to kill in a lot of cases. Toxic, finding a way to get a Knock Off on it, or hitting it with very strong super effective hits from strong Attack stat Pokemon are the only ways you'll dispose of P2 easily or efficiently. There are multiple Pokemon in the tier capable of pairing with Porygon2 from past experience that can absorb toxic (RE: Mega Aggron, Klefki, Nidoqueen, Draglage, Mega Steelix, Bronzong, Metagross, and Escavalier). Knock Off isn't so much a problem when it can be paired with Pokemon like Mega Aggron, Mega Steelix, Alomomola, Bulky Flygon, among others. As far as straight out killing it, it takes some very strong Pokemon to do so from high HP in the form of Banded users like Emboar, Sawk, Gallade, or SD boosters who at least have access to a strong enough STAB or fighting move to 2HKO, where P2 will be limited most likely to being able to Paralyze the killing mon in question, unless it's already set up for a clean sweep. It takes something very powerful to just be able to handle it.

    All in all, P2 is just too fat of a thing anymore for many LU Pokemon to really flourish with the partner Pokemon it can use in the tier. It isn't conventional broken, but it's pretty unhealthy how it can eat up hits, and nonchalantly fire decently sized hits back, while tanking common hits.
     
    Purpleseamonkey likes this.
  3. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    I am in strong agreement with CP here. P2 is the bulkiest viable thing in the tier and it combines that with far superior offensive capabilities than walls such as MAggron, Slowking, and even tangrowth. When it was previously in the tier, many strong fighting types and doublade dominated the meta. All of these mons were capable of setting up and sweeping, thus giving P2 a reasonable amount of opportunity cost. Since then, these mons have been driven to uu leaving very few to dissuade putting a bore-ygon on basically everything. Effective ways to check it atm are Emboar and Knock off. Emboar has major survivability issues bc it cant switch in, is neutral to all hazards, and P2 can even live banded superpower if it wants to.

    252+ Atk Choice Band Emboar Superpower vs. 248 HP / 204 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 368-434 (98.6 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
    or undbanded even with no def evs
    252+ Atk Emboar Superpower vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 302-356 (80.9 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    CP gave the huge amount of KO switch ins, the newest and most relevant being MAggron. Porygon is very unhealthy for the tier because it over priorities the ability for offensive pokemon to beat it 1v1 (Zoroark, SwitcharooNoivern, Scrafty) and defensive mons to not get set up on by charge beam (steelix, Claydol, Lanturn, TspikesDragale, trickRotomC, Toxicfairies ). While many of these mons have a place in the tier, they are either completely outclassed such as steelix (aggron is just better but loses to p2) or rely on very exploitable/high risk tactics such as Trick, knock off, and status.

    P2 is not a perfect mon, but its ability to live any unboosted hit while still being quite hard to switch into and the addition of support/setup moves make it broken in lu. It has a deceptive amount of versatility given its two abilities and the power of being either a physical or special wall depending on evs. While not having the ability to carry leftovers does hurt P2's survivability and it does require a decent amount of team support with heal bell or spinning, Porygon is too useful of a mon and centralizes teambuilding too heavily

    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 314-372 (84.1 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Reckless Hitmonlee High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 354-421 (94.9 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Boomburst vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 147-174 (39.4 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ SpA Choice Specs Exploud Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 170-200 (45.5 - 53.6%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Emboar Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 247-292 (66.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Sludge Wave vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 99-118 (26.5 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Nidoqueen Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 169-200 (45.3 - 53.6%) -- 34.8% chance to 2HKO
    Basically the reason why my nidoqueen discovered its focus blast but i don't see the point in using it otherwise. Unless tspikes I guess could help you win but yea beating this thing is a big deal rn.

    252 Atk Life Orb Cinccino Tail Slap (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-195 (42.8 - 52.2%) -- approx. 2% chance to 2HKO
    Basically the reason why I'd rather run kings rock to fish for flinches. If it's phys defensive gl

    252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Double-Edge vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Porygon2: 193-228 (51.7 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Refrigerate Mega Glalie Explosion vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 283-334 (75.8 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +2 252 Atk Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 290-350 (77.7 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Reason no2 that I'd rather run kings rock than life orb
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2015
  4. Xdevo

    Xdevo The bear was upon Tom Tiering Administrator Tour Director Tiering Administrator Tour Director

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    Porygon2 shares the same thing that I've said that I dislike about a few other Pokemon; it's too good at its job. There is little to no reason to not run Porygon2 as a defensive backbone because it has extremely few risks. The combination of being just powerful enough that setting up on it is difficult, the ability to quickly heal, no major weaknesses, and a plethora of crippling moves and option causes a situation where Porygon2 warps the tier. Unlike other Pokemon that might do this (Slowking comes to mind) Porygon2 still thrives in this metagame because of a combination of a poorly balanced tier and Porygon2's sheer bulk. Porygon2 has the ability to outlive the few things that might be able to take advantage of it, and hits hard enough that switching into it isn't something that every wallbreaker can or wants to do. Because of all this Porygon2 is a heavily limiting factor in the tier, and hinders attempt to actually balance LU and should go.
     
    Aurist likes this.
  5. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Article Contributor Forum Moderator Article Contributor

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    The main issue LU is facing with Porygon-2 is the fact it's way too bulky and makes a lot of viable pokemon suddenly very less of viable. It has the ability to run status moves ( t-wave/toxic), and has access to Recover which makes it a pain to beat. Eviolite with a 85/90/95 stats is more than respectable and makes it the best mixed wall of the tier. In top of that, it has 105 spe atk with good moves to abuse of ( Tri Attack, Discharge, Ice Beam) and can also run Trick Room and be a good sweeper.

    All the 3 abilities are good and have they own purpose:
    -Trace allows it dealing with Typhlosion while copying Flash fire for exemple, or even copying Levitate of Flygon so it forces it to go to Outrage
    -Download if you're considering running a more offensive version ( in TR teams for exemple)
    -Analytic if you like to deal more damage to fastest mon ( which is not hard, considering it has 60 base speed and is always unboosted)

    It's a force to be reckon with and a pain to take down. Even though it fears Knock off, there is not enough Knock Off Abuser who scare it enough to the point it's less viable. The post above described better P2 and I do feel like them that it does deserve to be banned :v
     
  6. Aurist

    Aurist I do not jump for joy. I frolic in doubt. Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep Forum Moderator Server Administrator Social Media Rep

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    OK, well over 2 weeks have passed and everyone is overwhelmingly in favour of a P2 ban, thus it will be banned. Its bulk and power level are clearly significantly above the curve of the rest of the tier, ways of dealing with it are very limited and there is very little reason to not run it, leaving it very heavily limiting to a large amount of pokemon that would otherwise be top threats in the tier with only P2 not present. Basically the motherducker just does not die and has no trouble taking opposing mons down itself.

    Thanks all for taking part, I'm sure there will be more discussion to be had soon.
     
    gengar17 likes this.
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