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Shadow Tag suspect (banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Discussion' started by MetalGross, Nov 17, 2015.

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  1. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    Discuss the possibility of Shadow Tag being banned from the ORAS OU tier. Use this thread to discuss the ability's effect on the metagame. Talk about good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think Shadow Tag should be banned or if it should stay in the ORAS OU tier but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes a post based on theorymon risks being infracted.

    Important notes:
    Stay on topic.
    Post intelligently
    Make meaningful posts. If your post doesn't contain any content, it is prone to being deleted. For example, posts that agree/don't agree with a certain point without any justification or explanation.
     
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  2. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Member

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    Finally this Suspect.

    Shadow Tag is the very definition of umcompetitive.

    Gothitelle (and their evolutionary line) and Wobbuffet.

    Gothitelle is more flexible, access to Trick, Rest, Calm Mind and a decent coverage.

    Wobbuffet even outclassed by Gothitelle, if well used, can use Encore in Walls and Revenge Kill a lot of Pokémon.

    Gothitelle is a real problem to the metagame.
    1- Perfect revenge killer.
    2- Perfect Stallbreaker, you can remove 2 or 3 walls if well used. Crumbling stall teams to their partners finalize the remaining.
    3- Helps teams Stall limiting Manaphy, Clefable and any setupper (except Mega mons) with Trick, eliminating Keldeo and Heracross Mega as revenge kill.
    4- Against HO it destroys the Lead (Skarmory, Infernape, others) and can use Thunder Wave to limit sweepers than can not defeat, as Mega Gardevoir. (Mirror Coat max HP lol)
    5- Against Balanced it uses Trick in the main support of the team acting as WinCon.

    Gothitelle die for a simple Pursuit, though this does not make it viable or healthy for Tier. It prevents the freedom of the game.

    Shadow Tag is umcompetitive and should be banned completely from the metagame ORAS OU.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2015
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  3. Weavile

    Weavile Phoenix

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    So Shadow Tag is, in effect, a suspect of Goth. Wobb is annoying sometimes but I don't think it's really worth discussing, it lacks the potential for directly breaking a team's spine that Gothitelle (and I guess Gothorita to an extent maybe possibly?) has.

    The best (and only) Goth sets are Trick sets. They force the trapped Pokémon into using only one move, this effectively prevents recovery or setup and essentially ensures the kill on anything you'd want to trap with a Goth. Even if it doesn't ensure the kill directly (say you trapped a Hippowdon and it used Whirlwind on your Trick) it heavily cripples any defensive Pokémon you may have trapped. Goth's +6+6 Calm Minding isn't something I find awfully relevant. Most any decent stall team can deal with it even at +6 since it's not particularly strong and usually only has a Psychic move and most offensive teams Goth struggles to set up on and is usually outsped and dispatched by something, or by a Dark-type like Bish/TTar.

    What Goth cannot do, which the above post would seem to imply it can, is everything all at once. It can't be a CM set with Twave and Trick or it won't have Rest and that would be bad. But a Trick/Rest/Twave/Psychic scarf set can perform Goth's most prominent functions in one set. It can trap multiple walls with little or no loss to itself by re-tricking its Scarf just before the kill and it can hinder any offensive threat that is vulnerable to Twave and can't kill it. This kind of versatile function can find its uses against most teams and on most team types. Against stall the primary draw for Goth's trapping is its re-usable nature. If you lock a wall into an attacking move, say, a Quagsire into Scald. Even without Calm Mind that wall can be stalled out of attacking PP and Goth can re-claim its Scarf before the kill and be at near full HP meaning it lost nothing save a few PP. This allows Goth to come in and do this again on another wall. Against offense it doesn't have such re-usability. Many walls/general fat shit also don't allow Goth such free reign. Skarm, Hippowdon, Garchomp, Rotom etc can all phaze it out or escape from it and force it into its (pun intended) one-trick-pony state, which stops it from effectively neutralising other things (although it may be able to PP stall some).

    So Goth presents the threat of being able to take out any Pokémon on its list of trapping targets (which is notably longer than that of Dugtrio) completely reliably should it get in on it. This presents the opponent with a problem. Should they wish to kill a Pokémon, they may well have to do so in a manner that leaves them with an active Pokémon that isn't vulnerable to Gothitelle, or risk their mon getting trapped. This isn't such a problem for offensive teams as the loss of one team member is often less devastating than it is to more defensive builds, depending on the lost mon and the matchup. But for more defensive teams this can cause some major problems. Every threat for which Goth catches its checks has to be played around somewhat awkwardly. This can create situations that force the defensive player to take a bunch of unavoidable vestigial damage just by the mere presence of Goth on the opposing team. Goth never has to come in or put itself at any risk for this effect to be observed. It takes up a team slot, but beyond that there is no risk to using Goth in this way. Playing well and making aggressive doubles is also heavily rewarded by Gothitelle, but this requires putting Goth at risk, something like Mega Heracross can rip apart a stall team after putting itself at risk through an aggressive double, so I'm not so concerned about that aspect of Goth.

    Goth also does that thing that Dugtrio also does and trap revenge kills a decent amount of stuff pretty well. Examples like Keldeo, Breloom, Heracross and a bunch of other shit if they're at low HP.

    Apologies if some of that didn't make sense, it did in my head.
     
  4. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/oras-ou-metagame-discussion-thread.29194/page-9#post-447421
    http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/ju...-suspects-discussion.27920/page-2#post-393596
    http://pokemon-online.eu/threads/ju...ential-suspects-discussion.27920/#post-392456
    So i've been on this writing about this for a while. This is a game based on strategies and counter play. Simply put there is no counter play to shadow tag. It limits the opponents options to an unreasonable degree because switching is a game mechanic. It is unlike similar abilities such as arena trap and magnet pull in the way that it can trap things so much more universally (Ghost is the least common type; while flyings, levitate, and nonsteels can be found on every team). The promotion of this ability automatizes the game and therefore can't be healthy in any balanced tier. Shadow tag is an unfair ability to have in a competitive environment.
     
  5. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    Have you actually read this statement? And thought about it? As in, processed its meaning or lack thereof?

    Anyhow I disagree with banning STag because there is literally only one pokemon present in the metagame that has STag and is broken- Gothitelle. Wobbuffet is burdened by severe limitations (inability to do anything unless the opponent attacks it) that greatly limit its ability to trap things and as such is far from an unhealthy presence in the metagame. Not to mention that in addition to struggling to actually KO its targets, Wobb gives you literally no support in any other facet of the game. I would certainly say that Wobb is no worse than Arena Trap (very broad) or Magnet Pull (Mag otherwise isn't total shit) and as such should not be banned.

    As for Goth, it's a threat to which there is no counterplay. Its sets are able to freely trap a massive variety of walls and stallbreakers at which point it can go to town on the opponent while they are helpless to do anything. Unlike Wobb, it is much better at exploiting opposing weaknesses, trapping a far greater variety of pokemon and being much more effective at crippling them and then exploiting them for an easy KO. There is little that can be done to mitigate this threat due to the restrictive nature of STag, as unless you build your entire team to be Goth-proof it just needs one switch into whatever member of your team is Goth weak and you've got a free KO.

    tl;dr free STag, ban Goth

    I mean at least something's happening but it's a clear choice imo...
     
  6. Sakuya Izayoi

    Sakuya Izayoi love to hate

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    just to add to orth's post, why is s tag the suspect in question. banning s tag only sets a precedent that abilities can be banned too, and this leads to other questions such as "why is blaziken banned when speed boost was the problem". furthermore how will we deal with mgengar in the event where a conclusion that s tag will be banned, should we unban it back to ou and give it no ability to work with?

    also if ur gonna ban gothitelle ban gothorita too because iirc with a scarf gothorita still outpaces i think base 107s so it still serves basically the same purpose as goth, albeit less bulky.

    i'm just looking at the aftermath should a s tag ban take place
     
  7. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    You guys seem to present an image of Wobbuffet that makes it look a lot weaker than what it actually is. This thing is a nightmare to face for practically anybody who runs hyper offense out there, and I am going to go so far as to say this thing claims a guaranteed kill against pretty much every offensive team that it faces. It may seem to be a 50-50 when it comes down to Encoring an opponent upon a setup move, as the opponent (provided hasn't got auto-omnipredictions enabled) may very well choose to attack, but one that chooses to do so just as easily enables himself/ herself to to lose his/her mon upon the incoming Custap Destiny Bond if incase the the trapped mon doesn't outright OHKO Wobbuffet. This isn't something impractical as it completes the very purpose Wobbuffet lives for.

    Now coming onto Gothitelle, I would have to agree with Orth's analysis on this this. I feel that Gothitelle is indeed with it's amazing moveset (Yes, amazing. Energy ball/ thunderbolt for the bulky waters, Thunderbolt for the bulky waters/ flying types, trick to disable clerics and most passive walls that require reliable recovery to function correctly, and Psyshock along with it to eliminate the crippled clerics/ passive mons on one set, and a combination of Trick, with CM and rest to guarantee setting up to +6 and claiming a kill on the mon it sets up on, on the other, to get the job done) and a decent speed tier that outspeeds pretty much every mon that requires to be trapped by Shadow Tag to be eliminated (Pretty much every defensive wall that requires active recovery to function properly.), along with access to the ability Shadow tag itself and the ability to abuse it with minimal complications on the user's part is highly unhealthy for the tier. Pursuit trapping it comes down to simple 50-50 predictions as Goth doesn't necessarily need to enter the field up until the point the opponent plans on using his Goth bait, and doesn't need to stay into play any longe, after having completed it's purpose. Namely, eliminating the Goth bait.
    Now I do understand that pretty much every mon follows the principle of adapting to what the team requires and supporting the team with better handling of certain threats that would overpower the team otherwise, but lmao, the fact that most mons don't have access to Shadow Tag to go along with their coverage and setup moves is what keeps them from going outright unhealthy and uncompetitive.

    From what I see here the problem isn't just just Goth as both the OU viable mons that have access to Shadow Tag get their job done equally well. I've never used Gothorita with a scarf in OU so I am not going to comment on that. From what I have seen though, it seems to me that Gothitelle is clearly the better Shadow Tag user when compared to Gothorita. That said, both the Shadow tag users I mention get their jobs done exceptionally well, albeit differently. While Gothitelle is a mon that more than efficiently dismantles defensive cores with minimal effort on the user's part, Wobuffet is a mon that pretty much always gets a guaranteed kill against offensive teams. It is cleat at this point that I would like to see Shadow Tag banned from ORAS OU as it is more than unhealthy from the tier.
    Voting a BAN

    I do realise I was against a shadow tag suspect earlier, but it's idiotic to not consider the different playstyles that are differently affected by the shadow tag users in OU. While semi stall may not be crippled to nearly as large an extent to which full stall is by Gothitelle, it is going to be more than wrong to ignore Goth's effect on full stall considering there exists a decent percentage of people who actually run full stall in OU. Likewise, it would also be plain ignorance to keep aside Wobuffet's effect on offensive teams as a huge amount of people run offense,which clearly isn't something to dissed aside when considering suspects.
    ( Full stall still sucks tho, js [:Insertsadfrogmemehere:].. )

    Mega Gengar's probably still gonna remain Ubers, coz we don't retest stuff here :].
    Lol, no kidding, I'll leave that for later. Mega Gengar being too good has nothing to do with Shadow tag being broken, and as such I'd rather not consider Mgar when discussing an ability that isn't influenced by it in any means whatsoever.
     
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  8. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Yes. Switching is a necessary part of every game. And strategy that prevents a user from switching is uncompetitive to varying degrees based on how hard it is to stop. There is basically no reasonable way to stop shadow tag; that is why it is uncompetitive. ST is unlike other abilities (@Sakuya Izayoi's slippery slope argument) because any use of this ability takes unreasonable amounts of control out of an opponent's hands (4 options over infinite turns as opposed to 9 options ^ how many turns the battle lasts). The ability to dictate the game in this way is not conducive to a competitive game and never has. Which is why this ability should no longer be allowed in the tier. I don't think any of these mons are broken, they are just using a strategy that is unfair.

    @Haze Victory MGengar will be ubers regardless. ST has everything to do with why it's broken but it has no other ability to use so it has to stay.

    @Ortheore it's one thing to get frustrated when people ignore you or force you to repeat what you said, but clearly I can read my own thoughts. Take less time being offensive and strengthen you own reasoning/understanding
     
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  9. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Also, just throwing it out there, but banning abilities has been done before, quite a bit. We've got the infamous Evasion abilities, and also Moody to have been banned from every tier. And throughout this generation and the last we've seen several instances of weather-based abilities being banned as well. The Speed Boost Blaziken example isn't even in the same ballpark. Speed boost itself isn't even close to broken, as proven by Yanmega, Ninjask, Scolipede, Combusken, and all of their preevolutions. Blaziken is broken because of Speed Boost combined with all of its other great attributes.
     
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  10. Ortheore

    Ortheore One beautiful monster

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    @Purpleseamonkey thank you for elaborating. Your original statement was akin to me saying "we shouldn't ban STag because it's an ability"- empty and vacuous and when you're an influential poster like yourself I'm going to get frustrated and ridicule that kind of post. Now that you've presented a credible argument I can go ahead and disagree without feeling an urge to mock you over it.

    There is nothing inherently uncompetitive about having a reduced number of options- this will occur naturally over the course of a match as part of any game with strategic elements is to limit your opponent's viable options such that they are unable to defeat you. To expect the opponent to have access to all of their potential options over the course of the battle is obviously nonsense. Shadow Tag is not inherently different, it accomplishes the same thing, just to a different extent. Limiting the opponent's options is not uncompetitive, it is a natural part of playing the game. Where Shadow Tag fits into this is that the risk and reward is far more favourable for the STag user, meaning that it must be balanced in other ways. This is why we don't call for bans on Magnet Pull, Arena Trap, Mean Look and Spider Web- in principle they are no different to STag, however they have limitations preventing them from being broken. In my view similar limitations apply to Wobb, but not to Goth.

    As for Wobb I don't think its utility vs offense is enough that it's broken. It can have difficulty switching in with its lack of resistances as its bulk gets eaten into quite easily, while you're only forced to stomach a KO if you're a 4 attack mon- otherwise you can just not attack and you suffer a loss of momentum, which isn't enough to be broken imo. As for the prediction associated with it, it's not really a 50-50 imo as you risk a KO by attacking if Wobb predicts right and also if you get caught out by Custap DBond, whereas you only lose momentum if you get encored into a setup move
     
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  11. Edna

    Edna I'm like Cinderella with an umbrella Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

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    While most posts prove indeed that Goth is severly broken, I do think that Wobby is worth discussing:

    I have 2 sets in my head, one with tickle/safeguard, and the other one with Custap Dbond.

    Tickle/Safeguard: this set can set up on any wall, use Encore, lock the wall either on a heal move, or into an attacking move which means it will most likely go down. Tickle is good alongside Pursuit Mon ( such as Ttar). Tickling 6 times will make the opponent attack and defense so low they will be force to switch and then die to Pursuit, which is something that leaves your wobby intact, or it did at least get a kill.
    Safeguard can help a mon such as Charizard or Azu to set up more easily, encore the opponent into a status move, safeguard and set up. If this goes well you can win a battle easily. Once again, only Wob can provide this support through Stag

    Custap+ Dbond: this set is a nightmare for offense and stall. Unless you're using Hydreigon or Sableye, Wobb can get up to 2 kills which is a lot for both style. This set is cancerous when you crippled it a lot and when he tries to put himself in <25% range by switching around with rocks and getting another kill at the good moment.

    I don't think we can discredit Wobb to be an inferior choice to Goth since they have different purpose.

    I've faced on the ladder Wobb+Goth in the same team ( safeguard+ trick cm goth) and I can say by experience this strategy has no counterpart. Due to Wobb bulk and its way to easily set up on any wall, this duo is most likely a proof that Shadow Tag is more a problem then Goth itself.

    Shadow Tag is an ability that gained popularity in stall ( Goth Stall to be accurate) and it made some stallbreakers totally useless ( Manaphy, Mega Garde, Mega Hera, etc), partially a reason why stall is so good at the moment. Balanced teams can't afford to lose easily their walls/have their main sweeper para'd/lose their main sweeper to Counter-Mcoat+ Encore.

    I think at the moment the issue is the ability itself and not Goth line only. Sorry if that post is not well organized but yeah
    Tldr: Ban shadow tag
     
  12. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this victini into gengar Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    goth almost never survives any battle because all it's supposed to do is come in freely on whatever the hell it wants, kill it and then die, it doesnt matter. All it does is make you lose your win condition, and when u lose your win condition .. well.. u cant win most of the time. And again, there's absolutely nothing u can do about it unless u keep doubling into ur pursuiter or something, but that's something goth users take advantage of and they dont always just randomly send out goth. Its max speed is good enough to allow it to outspeed i believe tornadus-t with scarf, which is more than enough (it doesnt need to outpace torn obviously , just keldeo and lati i guess, maybe even starmie idk).
    so in a nutshell, if your win condition is some set up mon like clef, mana, gliscor [insert any balanced/semi stall set up sweeper] to win, or u need stuff like hippo, chansey, [insert any balanced/stall/semi stall fat shit here] to be able to not lose vs a certain pokemon, then you're out of luck, because it just comes in and traps it and all u can do is watch.
    edit : also it doesnt even need to kill anything, it can just cripple them with twave (example: i once was using goth stall just for fun, and after some hax i was close to losing to mega garde, but goth came in and twaved it and i simply won because then amoonguss rkilled it, with 0 effort, 0 plays, fun right?)
    PS: i actually considered not replying to this when i saw the greninja thing cuz i figured it's just a troll, but whatever this only took 3 minutes to write.
     
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  13. @Rebirth101

    @Rebirth101 Member

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    I'd just like to add to what multiple people have probably already said.
    Gothitelle's ability is generally one of the most uncompetitive things.

    Recently whenever I build an OU team I need to run a dark type by force be it Bisharp or ttar.

    The ability of trapping mons is extremely deadly, this thing can straight up kill all clerics at any time in the game or in certain circumstances even take out your wincon.

    Goth partners well with wobuffet and wobuffet either makes one mon set up bait for goth or straight up kills it counter/mirror coat. This could kill a reliable mon which you need in the battle not only allowing goth to do its job but also allowing any other viable sweeper in the opposing team to succeed in winning the game.

    Gothitelle with trick/cm/psyshock/Rest is just a really painful thing to deal with, it could just do this to one mon, trick back the scarf and sweep from this point or trick, switch out, do it again to another pokemon.

    I have seen really bad players just abuse goth on the ladder and build an entire team around it. Support mons even reaching as far twave/encore/soft boiled/moonblast clefable. Goth doesn't even need top notch or average predicts to use, you just come in on the set up fodder and bop things.

    Personally I hope it does get banned.
     
  14. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    L0l ARE YOUR SRS?!?! ARE YOU GUYS THAT DESPERATE TO JUSTIFY SOMETHING?!?! Let me show you how to actually counter both Wobbufet and Gothitelle.

    CHECKS AND COUNTERS TO GOTHITELLE
    Mega Sableye
    : Mega Sableye completely stops Gothitelle, as it is immune to Shadow Tag and can cripple Gothitelle with Knock Off or use it as setup fodder.

    Pivots: Pivots such as Landorus-T, Rotom-W, and Mega Manectric can use U-turn or Volt Switch to just switch out of Gothitelle to a Pokemon that can check it.

    Latios and Latias: Latios and Latias resist all of Gothitelle's moves bar the occasional Shadow Ball or Foul Play and do not care too much about being Tricked a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs, as they can make use of the item.

    Dark-types: Choice Scarf Tyranitar and Bisharp can successfully Pursuit trap Gothitelle or cripple it with Knock Off, and they are also immune to its STAB moves.

    Pursuit: Pursuit users such as Bisharp, Tyranitar, and Scizor can come in on a Choice-locked Gothitelle and Pursuit trap it, thus rendering it weakened or useless for the rest of the match as well as preventing it from trapping anything else.

    Ghost-types: Though Ghost types aren't hard counters to Gothitelle, they are immune to Shadow Tag, and Ghost-types such as Gengar can deal a lot of damage to Gothitelle if not outright OHKO it.

    Fast or Powerful Attackers: Gothitelle's mediocre Speed, bulk, and typing leave it prone to being KOed by many attackers such as Mega Beedrill, Mega Pinsir, and Garchomp.

    Shed Shell Users: Skarmory, Ferrothorn, and the occasional Blissey sometimes carry Shed Shell to avoid getting trapped.

    CHECKS AND COUNTERS TO WOBBUFFET

    Bisharp: Bisharp is a huge pain in the neck for Wobbuffet, as it can KO Wobbuffet with Knock Off or trap a weakened Wobbuffet with Pursuit. However, Bisharp should not be too reckless, as trying to set up on Wobbuffet or failing to KO it can backfire and be exploited.

    Taunt + Status: Taunt and status debilitate Wobbuffet and can keep it from doing its job as efficiently. Wobbuffet can function when Taunted, but it needs more prediction in this case. Poison and burn wear down Wobbuffet, and other forms of status hinder it as well.

    VoltTurn + Counter / Mirror Coat immunities: The easiest way to handle Wobbuffet is to U-turn or Volt Switch into a Ghost- or Dark-type, the former type being immune to Counter and the latter type being immune to Mirror Coat. This prevents Wobbuffet from doing its job and minimizes the damage it inflicts upon the opponent's team.

    Also can you guys PLEASE stop centeralizing with Goth and Wobb please I mean all the post with ''They can just run along this and that along side it'' IF WE THINK LIKE THAT EVERYTHING WOULD BE SUSPECT WORTHY ('-')
     
  15. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    So I've actually played OU for a little while for once....must be like the first time in years I actually have done this, and I've encountered Goth a fair bit on the ladder at times. Also, from all the times I've actually played against Goth and the very...very....very bleak times I've faced Wobbu on the ladder, I've actually won more than I've lost to them, thanks to a lot of proper play and predictions, but hell if I don't admit they were probably some of the most taxing games I play because one wrong move would literally mean my loss to Goth generally taking out a very needed Pokemon because it can simply trap and set up + rest on my defensive pivots that are there to absorb damage, but may not have a pivoting move like U-Turn or Volt Switch.

    For the most part Goth is a pretty large nuisance on the metagame (imo as much as Mega Sableye is) just due to what Shadow Tag allows it. Trick Scarfing a defensive Pokemon and proceeding to set up likely means the only way you won't get swept by a CM using Goth is to have a Dark type on most every team...or just hit it insanely hard and hope you don't lose just half your team to it, because let's face it OU powerhouses aren't exactly nice to Goth's weaker physical bulk, but it'll still do a number if you make even one slip up, so fighting a Goth requires a lot of near perfect play if you don't have a dark type. Also fits a nice role on Hazard and Offensive based teams trapping, crippling, killing opposing threats or Hazard Removers when prompted, especially if it's a more offensive oriented Goth (i.e. full attacker set). It's generally predictable really what you might find, but it's annoyance comes from how simple and easy it is to actually pull off its role with surprising effectiveness.

    I don't know I can fully say a thing on Wobbuffet. Actually I don't think many of us have the ability to say much, because it's almost never used at all on our ladders, that it's potentially probably can't be discerned by many of us, outside the effect you might see it from say the PS ladders/tournaments and people who might use them over there because let's face it OU will pretty much have the same vein of play between both places. All I know/can say on it is that there's a lot more diversity in the recent generations in movesets run that Wobbuffet can be dealt with passively since running Toxic/Hazard/Support moves in a 4th slot are so common now, it's not just hit and Wobb will retaliate back like it did back in gens 3 and 4 which got it the ubers status. However, it still does have a potent ability if it catches you with MC or Counter or even Encore to allow for you to switch out to a teammate and essentially get a free set up to do something when played well, and if it can kill something with Counter/MC and it's in death range, then the Custap strategy means it can take up to 2 Pokemon with it in a match (more if a Wish Passing combo let's Wobb get health back!), and it can pick/choose what it could trap to try and kill. Just the effectiveness of pulling it off is actually better said than done.

    All in all, I'm a bit more neutral since I don't really care too much about OU, so I wouldn't care too much if it stays or goes, but I think for a better metagame it's probably better off banned. It's a low key skill that will tax on players to never make any mistake in a match, otherwise the result can be highly disastrous, and you might as well resign the match if you lose the Win Condition just because of not being able to switch out to a proper Pokemon that can handle said STag user. Might as well comment on this in case no one else has by the time I do post this:

    Going to focus on these really quick:

    1. Ok...M-Sableye is immune....but how do you switch it in? Just because it's immune does not mean the Pokemon on the current battlefield that Goth would like to trap is not, and thus unless you think Goth is coming in every single time you send M-Sable or any other Ghost out, generally by the time you send him out to the field, Goth would have trapped the target you want, gotten rid of it or hopefully maimed it, and is ready to die or switch to something else.

    2. Goth doesn't really try to trap these ones either. Again they'll come in after Goth's done its job, unless it's an offensive type of Goth meant to pick off Pokemon with Scarf that were weakened by the mon before Goth came out. And in the first two cases (also a case of Zapdos), Goth maybe faster than them or if they are choiced not have the option to U-Turn/Volt Switch out being locked into a move, and possibly be at the clutches of a trapper and Goth may get the kill. This depends on game flow, though if it's on the CM Goth set, they'll come in after it's trapped something that can't mess up its set up by being able to switch, and they honestly won't do a thing to it. Well Offensive Lando-T has a shot of doing something to that version of Goth, but not Zap, Manectric, or Rotom.

    3. Again Goth doesn't really trap these mons, and if it does it generally only when they use their stat dropping Draco Meteor, use that weakness to set up (unless they get a crit), and proceed to do what it does, or they come in after Goth's already done what it needs to.

    4. Those 3 and Weavile are probably the only Pokemon who would viably use Pursuit in the OU metagame as it stands, lest others lose out on a very necessary coverage that's unrelated to Goth. You could probably argue a few more, but it's a very scarce option to suggest, but they are stretched as "useful" in OU. Also, a set up Goth doesn't really have to worry about Scizor w/Pursuit, as it can deal a lethal blow to it with just Psychic if it's made it to +6. And it'll normally be only Banded Scizor running Pursuit. Still best Scizor imo, but it's the only Scizor that'll be trying to Pursuit it anyway.

    5. Ghost types, see #1, and if Goth would ever try to go one on one with a Gar it'd be Scarf Goth and Psychic wins out.

    6. Again if it's done it's job, then these don't really matter. If they can be killed out by it's partners, it has done its job if you no longer have a necessary win condition Pokemon. Also Garchomp actually can't OHKO Goth unless it's CB. Just gonna throw that out there. Truthfully it actually takes a very strong source of offense to fully KO it if it's had a chance to do it's job, set up and rest off damage from something passive, or if it catches the target using a support move it can stay at full HP, there's a chance it won't be KO'd by general attacks outside those of Banded Pokemon or something as ridiculous as Aerialte M-Pinsir Return, or strong supers like U-Turn/Knock Off from faster things than it, though they have to hit hard enough.

    Again I don't care if Shadow Tag leaves, figured I'd leave my 2 cents in that I think it's a stupid ability that requires no mistakes a lot of the time to not get crippled by in a match, and that it can be very effective in different situations, though it can back fire on the user since they are limited in what they can trap, but that's the part of the Goth user is that it picks and choose how they want to utilize Gothitelle to do that.
     
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  16. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this victini into gengar Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    @Terrie123 as i said in my earlier post, gothitelle has mediocre stats and an ok movepool, it's not here to sweep the opponent, it's easy to revenge kill and everything, but u dont understand the fact that it's just here to eliminate SPECIFIC pokemons, key ones essential to your win. It's really simple, if your only way of beating stall is a manaphy or cm stored power clef, or sd gliscor or taunt/bulk up talonflame or whatever it is that sets up, gothitelle only needs to trick those a choice scarf then it's over. goth can die the same turn or the next turn, it doesnt matter at all, the win condition is as good as useless.
    It's not about how many checks and counters gothitelle and wobbuffet have, there are plenty of mons that can beat them, but it's just the ability of hand picking what they want to trap, and eliminate it, is all that matters. There's a difference between trading a mon with goth and be like "yeah it's fine, goth trapped my pokemon and i pursuited it after, so we're 5-5", and "goth trapped my best win condition, so i cant realistically win anymore".
    The number of options goth can provide is pretty big, and not only useful on stall, but it's most effective there.
    blissey/skarm/ferro for example dont do anything to stall anyway (also missing out on incredible bulk by using blissey just to avoid a potential goth?).
    In a nutshell: yes they are easy to kill, yes they have many counters, they dont let u switch out so they trap whatever they want and kill it, with the proper uturn/volt switch support or just by doubling or letting something faint.
    here's a small example: people usually have 1-2 counters/checks max to let's say lopunny :slowbro, clef, skarm, hippo or whatever, and whenever lopunny comes in, it clicks batonpass, lures in [insert check/counter] and goth traps it, simple as that. I'm NOT saying this is how it works but it's JUST an example of how goth cant as easily be stopped as u may think (goth can be for example specs with hp ice, tbolt trick and rest just to beat the lopunny counters, then lop has a field day). Again, this is just a random example i thought about as im writing this, this is not an example of how things go and how oras ou is.
     
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  17. Uaifu

    Uaifu ★LT8Y Asuya: I'm German dude

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    Gothitelle

    1-Can Trick Scarf on Chansey,and make it useless,pp stall,setup and re-obtain the scarf.Can sweep a team.Killed the MegaSableye/Shed Shell Skarmory/Ferrothorn,isn't possible to kill on stall team.
    2-Can Revenge Kill and setup on many pokemon(like Celebi and Heatran).
    3-Have only Sableye and Bisharp for counter.Killed these pokemon,can exploit on the opponent team.
    4-Supported with Manaphy and SableyeMega have a good mu vs EVERYTHING.

    252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 366-432 (111.9 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 171-202 (46.8 - 55.3%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO
     
  18. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    Wait you have played OU a little and goth + wobb isnt even common in the tier like you literally dont see it every game , and now ur just here attempting to reword the same ''point'' over and over and attempting to stress the ''trap'' over and over is completely unnecessary
     
  19. Terrie123

    Terrie123 Flame Orb Flareon to activate guts lol

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    I will be honest, I was feeling the first half of what you said until that entire baton pass nonsense, what is that ? Oh ik the ''Second pokemon'' argument. This thread isnt about ''baton pass + shadow tag'' so why bring that up even? Also if you can bring up a second technique to back up your point.....why are you guys only attempting to focus on just ONE of mines at a time? Total bias. And then you said ''All goth has to do is trick cm clef /glisc/manaphy'', oh im sorry i didnt know there were only 3 stall breaker mons in ou
     
  20. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this victini into gengar Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    what i said wasnt in the slightest around batonpass, i could have said any pokemon with uturn or volt switch instead, it all leads to the same outcome. I mentioned it as a momentum gaining move that gives u switch initiative, not as a move to pass boosts or whatever. i might as well have said volt switch thundurus or uturn manaphy i dont care, batonpass is just one of those 3 moves that make life easier for goth. not the move "batonpass" itself.
    and those arent the only 3 stall breaking mons, but those are the best ones that arent walled by common stall pokemons, also those are basically in most bulkier teams, if u want more examples, bulk up talon, taunt magma storm heatran, and whatever other things im forgetting about. Also it outspeeds heracross, keldeo with scarf and whatever else can hit hard, and can twave faster threats to cripple them.
    i swear i said like 3 times that my lopunny example is just an example and nothing more.. not about batonpass sigh
     
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  21. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    To me, what I've played is a little. Though if we want to get technical, it's about 3 months of consistently playing, messing around, having fun, and watching a lot of OU since that's what a lot of people are just playing over UU, LU, and NU, so I gotta get my battle fix somehow. But, comparatively it's not as much experience as many others have had, but it's still enough to know what goes on in the tier. I've seen my fair share of Goth, and yeah Wobb isn't very used much, so for it to be part of this is hard to really say at least on my part, I did say most people probably won't be able to give a steady observation, I only described what I see from Wobb and what it's potential is, despite the practice being difficult to actually do.

    As well, of course I'm going to stress the "Trapping" part over and over since this is what it's going to be about, and in which case I guess my argument is going to be as similar to other people, because obviously the feeling on Shadow Tag/what Gothitelle specifically does is mutual. Gothitelle's use of Shadow Tag isn't a one dimensional parlor trick like Wobbuffett since it can use different forms of trapping with the ability to be a serious threat, one that is pretty limiting on teambuilding, or just needing to play near perfect games to overcome in certain cases to not lose win conditions. Whether it be it's Trick Choice set up trapping on Defensive pokemon, CM Rest 2 attacks to take advantage of non offensive support types, or the great ability to be an Offensive Trapper, and the fact that not all bulky Pivot types in OU have access to BP, Volt Switch, or U-Turn, nor do they run them on every set/should run them on every set. It's the one point that is going to be stressed over and over. I'm just throwing in what my view on the whole thing is.

    Do I think it's a problem, somewhat. Do I think it's uncompetitive, I actually do to an extent that you don't have a choice if you slip up, and there's practically no coming back from a slip up without a bit of luck in most cases as I've seen. Also, I only responded to your last one, because all the other ones I would have commented/quoted were already answered by someone else. Your post hadn't been at the time I wrote my post, and if you notice I deleted about half of what you said because it's actually fair points that I agree with.

    All in all, I wouldn't mind seeing it gone (at least Goth minimum, but Teen Goth would have as much ability to do the one set if people want to go the satan route and use it as a defensive pivot trapper and set up and be a hell mon despite strong attackers taking her out easier than Gothitelle), but I wouldn't mind the whole ability gone just to prevent that should it actually happen, and it blankets Wobbuffet, since there's potential to be annoying, but it's less clear cut on what it can actually do. As it stands and how people build, it can be a near auto loss due to how it works, and the builds that Goth uses at least make it that way. Wobbuffet is literally niche in how it's going to be used, but it can still do some unhealthy things for the meta, but it is way easier to work around as a S-Tag user than Goth is.
     
  22. Xdevo

    Xdevo God Bless the President Tier Leader Tour Director Tier Leader Tour Director

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    Or just hard double switch, since no one is switching any of goth's checks into Loppuny.

    Goth is obviously broken. It's ability to trap defensive threats for offensive teams is incredibly hard to stop. Unless you double switch like a king, and can avoid any momentum loss, Goth is going to trap some defensive glue. There's no real counter-play for it because of how Shadow Tag functions; aside from gimmicky team choices (6 GHOSTS!), Goth can and will trap anything remotely defensive or in the case of Offensive Scarf, anything slower than it with an exploitable weakness. Goth is incredibly effective at what it does. What it does is incredibly useful for a massive list of OU pokemon and invalidates so much traditional counter-play.

    Anyone stuck on the idea of countering Goth or Wobb itself has completely missed the point of the Suspect thread and has at best questionable intelligence for posting here. You can't traditionally counter either because you can't switch into them; the literal definition of a counter.

    About specifically Wobb, idk and idc about it, but Goth needs to go. It's both incredibly broken and ruins competitive play.
     
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  23. OUAzumarill

    OUAzumarill Active Member

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    Now, the choice between banning Goth and Shadow Tag in my opinion comes down to what is gained versus collateral damage. Interestingly enough, I think that both ends of the spectrum favors banning Shadow Tag. As non-ST goth is definitely not a problem but ST Wobb arguably is and ST Baby Goth could potentially be, banning ST would deliver a blanket solution to the problem and not wimp around things that could be fixing a symptom like what's been going on with BP. It would also ensure that if any random stupidity like Dusknoir gaining it in an event occurs that we don't have to live through another metagame-breaking experience and the problem will have already been solved.

    As for collateral damage, the difference is huge. Banning Goth gets rid of a Pokemon that is potentially useful in lower tiers. Banning Shadow Tag makes two Pokemon that are already useless in lower tiers useless here too. While Shadow Tag Wobb and Baby Goth may not be broken like normal Goth is, they both certainly border on "unhealthy" and therefore losing them from OU is a minor loss if that.
     
  24. gengar17

    gengar17 someone turn this victini into gengar Tier Leader Tier Leader

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    to be completely honest i wouldnt go as far as say that gothitelle is potentially useful in lower tiers, there are plenty of better mons that can do what non s-tag goth does in lower tiers, and its stats are definitely below average. in PS the only reason they didnt want to ban goth specifically was because it's used in PU and it's a new official tier for them so it's kinda a "big" deal.
     
  25. pokemonnerd

    pokemonnerd Only uso listens to pnerd. Devo too. Article Contributor Article Contributor

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    Hi, just dropping in to say gothitelle is absolute trash in lower tiers without shadow tag. That shouldn't even matter in this discussion but it is absolute garbage compared to other available psychic types and has no other unique niche without S-tag.
     
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  26. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak Pika... chu... Forum Administrator Server Owner Forum Administrator Server Owner

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    I'm just chirping in to say that the suspect specifically states "Shadow Tag". This isn't up for debate, so keep your posts relevant to the subject at hand, and do not debate whether the ability or a Pokémon should be updated. Poor posts will be removed.
     
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  27. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    When did this restriction come in? Lol, I don't play Pokémon as often now but I am pretty sure this council/ player base wants to come to the most accurate conclusion. I see no harm in player's justifying what they want to see leave, as everyone wants the most accurate ban that does the tier the least harm. That's my stand on it. Idk how many of you'll feel differently.
     
  28. Kland

    Kland One true god

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    o god this suspect sounds extremly dumb but sadly i have to agree with it.

    goth is just not competitive friendly. you can slap it on most teams give it a toiuch of bulk and it can siwtch in to most sp attackers, it can forcibly cripple a pokemon of it's choice and offers little play arounds. ie if you need a pokemon stal lor offense can just cripple it with goth on a free siwtch in or something and u can't do nything about it, which is just not healthy. The pokemon it's self is rather weak but due to s tag it's overcentralising.


    this is one of the first bans i agree with in years tbh sadly it just is overcentrlaising
     
  29. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Wow, Kland agreeing on something? Is this real life?

    OT: I agree with what most people said here. There is literally no counter play due to the nature of Shadow Tag (sure, you can pursuit trap Goth after, but it'll have done its job already). It's not extremely easy to pull off and very powerful versus all playstyles. Therefore, Shadow Tag should be banned.
     
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  30. Hannah

    Hannah Come a little closer

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    Will all due respect, @Professor Oak I don't think that deleting those posts are necessary at all and in fact is counter-productive to the actual discussion of the tier. The suspect was long needed, and it was done hastily and didn't cover topics of discussion that deserve to be addressed.

    While I do agree that Shadow Tag as an ability is incredibly strong, I do believe that it isn't worth of a ban. Gothitelle on the other hand, is worthy of a ban.

    A couple of things from the thread that I would like to address:

    - Gothitelle being used in lower tiers and the effect of its ban from OU.
    How is that relevant to an Overused Suspect?

    - There is no counter play to Shadow Tag
    While that is 90% true (10% Proper switching, utilizing ghost types and shed shell based pokemon properly), you can't stop the ability from doing what it was intended to do but the reason its broken is how it is utilized which is only showcased with Gothitelle. Shadow Tag on Wobbuffet, Gothorita isn't nearly as impactful as Gothitelle due to stats and the function they bring with the ability. Just because you can trap, doesn't mean you will be productive with it. While Wobba did have his time back in Gen 4, the sheer offensive quality can provide enough pressure to make trapping vastly inferior and end up losing momentum from it. Gothorita is a joke mention of a Pokemon, in my opinion, and is just a reason to grasp at straws.

    -Wobbuffet
    From personal use and observations I do believe that Wobbuffet is a lot more watered down than it was before. As I've brought up before, with the quality of offensive moves being higher with Knock off being everywhere and momentum grabbing moves like U-turn and Volt switch. Its a lot harder to safely switch in and fully benefit from having the trapper. Though I can't speak much for the tickle set as I have not encountered it, Wobbuffet with its general set doesn't have a big enough impact to justify banning Shadow Tag. A needless casualty, considering how outclassed he is in the metagame compares to Gothitelle. Unless you can show me a tournament or a consistent enough use of Wobbuffet that will end up breaking the meta then I don't think it deserves to be called an abuser of a banworthy ability.

    tl;dr

    Gothitelle is broken because it has shadow tag
    Shadow tag is good, but as an ability is not overpowered
    Examples of this are how Wobbuffet and baby Goth aren't relevant in OU whereas Gothitelle is

    I still do believe the the appropriate step here is to ban Gothitelle. Getting rid of Shadow Tag solves that, but I do believe in terms of casualties banning Gothitelle is the better option.
     
  31. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    See the main disagreement I have with this is people's flawed incredulous attitude about banning Wobb. Is wobb broken? no. Is it good in the meta? no. But that is not why we are suspecting tag. It needs to be banned from competitive play because any time shadow tag is useful, it is inherently unhealthy. You cant use shadow tag in a way that is balance to the tier, because if it is doing its job (removing essential mons with no counterplay) then it is very uncompetitive. It does not matter how good the mon that does this is. Or even how good it is in the general meta. If you can brainlessly (brainless=able to trap anything) eliminate something that is key to strategic play; that will always be bad for the game. The point is, there is no way for ST to exist and be viable in a balanced tier, so it needs to go. This is the way we need to be judging game mechanics such as swagger, baton pass, tag, stealth rocks, evasion; because it's almost impossible to prove that these things are conventionally broken, but their usage has such a clear negative effect on any tier ever (not bp or rocks imo). Im not too worried about collateral dmg or whatever (bc we really should not care what does or does not get banned, that is a bias), more with the theoretical logic/consistency of tiering
     
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  32. Funbot28

    Funbot28 Active Member

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    Wanted to post in this thread for a for a while, but I never had the time. Anyways, first of I wanted to say that I believe Gothitelle is an extreme unhealthy presence to the meta, either requiring your stallbreakers to run Shed Shell or by applying aggressive offensive pressure to wear it down (but even then it is not always guaranteed). There is no need for it to remain, when it forces teams to rely on niche items only to deal with one mon.

    Many have been stating that S-tag is not broken on Wobb. While I can agree that it is not as effective and centralizing as Goth, it still grants teams huge momentum by taking out certain mons that would impose problems to it. I have been seeing nasty combos such as Tickle + Pursuit trap and Encore + Sub setup sweeper. The advantage Wobb can bring to the team is tremendous. The worst part is that there is literally zero counterplay to these "strategies" besides a having a Ghost type or niche items like Shed Shell like I mentioned earlier. To me it can be seen as uncompetitive and unhealthy and should honestly be banned, due to the huge strain it can bring when teambuilding.

    P.S Gothorita isn't being seen because Gothitelle still exists. If only telle gets banned, Rita would take it's place as it's only a slightly slower Gothitelle that can be as equally bulky with Eviolite.
     
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  33. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Just a small thing about baby Goths: They can't run a Scarf and Eviolite at the same time, so they are a bit of a smaller problem as Goth's strategy revolvs around tricking a Scarf onto a defensive Pokemon. They would still take its place though, so I believe as well that it's better to ban the ability all together than to just ban Goth.
     
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  34. inigomontoya

    inigomontoya Slightly Less Well-Known Member

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    So I played OU again and discovered this suspect had not ended in a ban, so lets take a moment to deal with this.

    First, Lord Oak has spoken, its a Tag ban or nothing. That said, Im only looking here at it's primary abuser: Gothitelle (Anyone want Gen 5 DW Chandy back?)

    I usually see Goth like some form of TCG spell: It lets you choose any non-Ghost creature you want dead (within reason), and said creature dies an incredibly painful death. The real issue is if you don't have space on your team for a Pursuit user, the spell doesn't go to the graveyard, it just returns to your hand and can be used over and over again until some huge misplay occurs.

    Terrible analogies aside, Gothicrap's sheer existence forces most Special attackers to run a Dark or Ghost move, forces setup pokes off of their recovery items, and forces your mega to be kicked out in favor of Mega Sabelye (who also deserves a suspect) or Mega T-Tar (who greatly hinders non-Sand teams). This cuts deep into the core of just about every team, and causes me to think that Shadow Tag should be BANNED

    Of course, if you willingly switch your Gothitelle into my Banded Ferrothorn, I will gladly accept your donation to the Gyro Ball fund.
     
  35. AnuncioBot

    AnuncioBot Member

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    Really sorry for this post, but I think nothing more need be said about Shadow Tag and we are already several days without new posts, just waiting. Any decision?
     
  36. Haze Victory

    Haze Victory Dem slumps..~

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    I shall start my trolling again, just to see whether the TL's check this post or not. The day I get an infraction would be the day a TL opens this page, lel.

    Anyway, over a two weeks have gone by. It's high time this comes to a verdict.
     
  37. Oh So Penspin

    Oh So Penspin Hail RNGesus, our Lord and Saviour!

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    Or instead of whining, you got just tag the relevant people so that they can decide.

    @MetalGross, could you take a look at this please?

    EDIT: I know we run a different metagame than Smogon does, but they also had a Shadow Tag suspect with the following result:

    Shadow Tag
    Ban: 165
    Do Not Ban: 20
    Ban % = 89.2%
     
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  38. MetalGross

    MetalGross gems…

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    i mean even kland agrees
    Shadow Tag is banned
     
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