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Suspect Discussion: Cameruptite [Banned]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 NU' started by Draciel, Nov 23, 2015.

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  1. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    [​IMG]
    Credits to @The Alio for the wonderful pic!



    Discuss the possibility of Cameruptite being banned from the ORAS NU tier.

    Use this thread to discuss Mega Camerupt's effect on the metagame; talk about the different sets it can use, good partners and potential checks/counters. State your opinion on whether you think it should be banned, but make sure your posts are backed up by experience and knowledge. Anyone who makes post based on theorymon risks being infracted.

    If you're unsure about posting check out this guide and post anyway.
     
  2. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    The set I think is most optimal is:

    NukeCamel
    248hp/252spcA/8spe Modest
    Fireblast
    Earthpower
    Hidden power Electric/Ancient power
    Wilo-wisp/Flash cannon/Stealthrocks

    Unlike cam newton, Super Camel is very slow. This leads to it being heavily reliant on TR and free switchins by using its typing/bulk. While these limitations do mean that cam is quite easy to check offensively, the lack of switchins is pretty staggering. The best thing to use is gastrodon with max special defense
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 186-220 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    While at first Manatine was a check, Camerupt has easily adapted by running hp electric
    252+ SpA Mega Camerupt Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mantine: 180-212 (54 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Camerupt has changed the tier in many ways since it has arrived. Electrics need to run a water attack. Bulky/slower teams need to be more offensive and hazard/status based. Bulky sweepers are invalidated almost entirely. Camel can be very threatening to offensive teams as well with proper volt turn/TR support. It has enough bulk to survive all but the most powerful of hits and can ohko most uninvested mons. Basically having such a powerful nuke in the tier has greatly increased to the pace of matches because the more turns available to the hump, the more things will die to fireblast.

    Other important calcs
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lickilicky: (48.8 - 57.5%) -- 51.6%2HKOLeftovers
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 321-378 (85.8 - 101%) -- 6.3%OHKO
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 104 HP / 212+ SpD Lanturn: 408-480 (97.8 - 115.1%) -- 81.3%OHKO
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Clawitzer: (48.5 - 57.2%)91.8%2HKO
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Claydol: 177-208 (54.6 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Scrafty: 183-216 (54.7 - 64.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Kecleon:(48.9 - 57.9%) -- 95.7%2HKO

    252 Atk Virizion Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 153-181 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- 21.5% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 313-370 (90.9 - 107.5%) -- 43.8%OHKO
    0 SpA Claydol Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Camerupt: 140-168 (40.6 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Escavalier Drill Run vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 294-348 (85.4 - 101.1%) -- 12.5%OHKO
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2015
  3. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    So Mega Camerupt.

    [​IMG] - > [​IMG]

    Magma Armor / Solid Rock -> Sheer Force
    HP: 70 -> 70
    Atk: 100 -> 120
    Def: 70 -> 100
    SpA: 105 -> 145
    SpD: 75 -> 105
    Speed: 40 -> 20

    Camerupt @ Cameruptite Lv. 100 -- Solid Rock
    Nature: Modest - EVs: 236 HP / 252 SAtk / 20 Spd (Alternatively, 156 speed EVs to outrun Gastrodon after Mega Evo)
    • Fire Blast
    • Earth Power
    • Ancient Power/ Will-o-Wisp/ Stealth Rock
    • Hidden Power Grass/Electric

    Camerupt @ Cameruptite Lv. 100 -- Solid Rock
    Nature: Quiet - EVs: 248 HP / 252 SAtk / 8 SDef (0 Speed IVs)
    • Fire Blast
    • Rest
    • Sleep Talk
    • Earth Power

    Now onto Mega camel; we all know it's powerful. It's crazy 145 SpA coupled with the amazing Sheer Force ability allows it to hit extremely hard. Sheer Force boosts the power of moves with secondary effects by 30% in exchange for the secondary effect itself, which is a godsend ability for Mega Camel; as both of it's STABs (namely Fire Blast and Earth Power) receive this boost. Their power is raised to staggering levels, and along with Ancient Power (78 BP thanks to Sheer Force) Mega camel has almost perfect coverage to 1HKO/2HKO everything in the tier. As far as other support moves, it has access to Stealth Rock and WoW is also helpful in crippling incoming Spdef switchins (if there are any). So yea it's safe to say that when this monster is in, something is going down or taking at least 50%+ on a switch in.

    Now as far as switchins go, their number is staggeringly low. SpDef Gastrodon, Mantine (No recovery), AV Hariyama (No recovery): these are all that come to mind. Max Spdef Gastrodon still takes ~50% from a Earth Power, so chances are it can clean 2HKO'd with HP Grass/Earth Power with some prior damage if you manage to outspeed it with the required Speed EVs. Mantine is an okay check, unless it switches in on a HP Electric it’ll be fine, and it can force Mega Camel out by threatening OHKO with Scald. AV Hariyama is an extremely shaky check, as it still takes ~50% from Earth power (depending on EVs), so needs Healing Wish support to switch in multiple times. These are all as far as ‘safe’ switchins go, there are several mons that can force it out by threatening KO but can’t switch in on Mega camel at all.

    It’s not all sunshine and roses for Mega Camel, it has it’s downsides too. It’s dismal 20 speed stat makes it certain it will get outsped by practically everything. 70/100/105 bulk might be impressive for such a hard-hitter, but it’s mediocre typing and lack of resistances means it’s gonna lose a decent chunk of health everytime it’s switching in on any moderately powerful attack. Lack of reliable recovery (RestTalk is hardly reliable), and the general lack of wish-passers in the tier (bar Lickilicky which is kinda meh) allows it to get worn down quickly with hazards up or poison damage. Slow Volt-turn is an option to get it in safely, but it’s not getting out of a lot of 1v1 unscathed against an offensive team. So overall under normal conditions it’s not nearly as effective against Offense as it is against Balance and especially Stall.

    However, there is a way by which Mega Camel can destroy offense: Trick Room support. With reliable TR setters like Uxie/Cofagrigus in the tier, TR is an extremely viable strategy in NU. TR ensures Mega Camel practically outspeeds everything on the opposing team due to it’s dismal speed, and basically OHKOes every opposing mon when it’s facing offense or even Balanced offense.

    So tl;dr: Mega Camel is obviously one of the most threatening NU mons, and even though it has it’s downsides I feel like it’s kinda overwhelming for the tier. It invalidates stall, makes balance a pain to run and also has the ability to demolish offense with TR support. So in my opinion it’s best if this thing leaves NU, for the sake of balancing the tier.
     
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  4. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Camel boasts 145 SpAtk, with both of its (already powerful) STAB moves being boosted further by Sheer Force this means that Mega Camerupt hits incredibly hard without the need to boost ahead of time. Combined with its STAB surprisingly great coverage, and the lack of general bulk in NU, this means that less than a handful of usable Pokemon aren't 2HKO'd by Camerupt: Gastrodon, Hariyama, and Mantine. The latter two suffer from a lack of recovery, and if Camel uses HP Elect than Mantine's also 2HKO'd, and only has a 50% to OHKO back with SR, while Hariyama needs to run a very specific EV set on Ass vest. Gastrodon is 2HKO'd if it takes any real damage beforehand or if you're unlucky.

    Camerupt obviously suffers against offensive teams, but it absolutely demolishes Balance and Stall archtypes. Offensive has to sack things if Camerupt gets in, though that's hardly unique to Camel. It doesn't even suffer from Mega Slot competition, just as an extra jab to anything that would serve to balance it.

    Obviously Trick Room will decimate offensive teams, and NU does not lack TR setters and abusers, especially with Esca also in the tier.

    As I said in the other thread...
     
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  5. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I'll go ahead and bounce off of @Xdevo's point, as I'm in agreement with what he said but I want to add my own flair to it.

    As Xdevo essentially said, Mega Camerupt, in a nutshell, is a slow-moving truck carrying a crapload of wrecking balls in the back (read as: slow, but extremely powerful). Base 145 SpA already puts it above the rest of the special attackers in the tier (numbered as they are), but coupled with Sheer Force, it can easily power through the most bulky of special walls with its dual STAB + HP Electric (Ancient Power being a nice move as well). In this NU cycle, it also has the benefit of not needing to be the Pokemon to lay down Stealth Rocks as I commonly saw in past NU cycles as well as time in LU, mainly due to the solid handful of Stealth Rockers we have now (Uxie probably being the best for ensuring, Mesprit and Archeops are great too).

    Mega Camerupt is simply one of those Pokemon that just exudes a presence on the battlefield whether or not its out, much like Musharna in NU or Emboar in LU. Just one wrong move against the opponent and things can easily go wrong just by this Pokemon being able to blast a hole through your team. As I just stated, Mega Camerupt's great STAB on top of an awesome ability and SpA stat allows it to decimate even the mightiest walls. Of course, these walls can often outspeed it, as Base 20 isn't that hard to top, allowing for some viable answers such as Lanturn (has to be careful of Earth Power for obvious reasons) and Mantine to come in. Outside of the bulky waters though, there's nothing defensively that can stop it, and that's the major issue. Mega Camerupt (as well as possibly Escavalier) completely invalidate very basic archetypes, which doesn't exactly scream healthy to me. Due to that fact, and its sheer force on the battlefield (see what I did there?), I'm gonna say ban the camel.
     
  6. AustinXhensL

    AustinXhensL Member

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    Before i start my rant i want to add that i have been out of the NU meta for around 7-8 months or so, so i am going to be giving my somewhat unbiased opinion on camel based off of past meta. Whilst i know doing so invalidates said rant, i would like to add that multiple "counters" to camel that existed back then have left the tier and highly doubtful that they will return.

    Camel used to be challenged by the likes of Steelix, Bird, Audino, and to a lesser extent Banette. bird is now banned from UU meaning hes not coming back while all the others are either banned from the tier or moved up to LU on their own leaving him with no rivalry for the mega slot.

    He hits everything, and unless you are running air balloon poliwrath you can plan on whatever check you had to him getting worn down, read as 2hkod on the switch in, even air balloon poliwrath requires camerupt to use earth power to not end up 2hkoed. im too lazy to do calcs as it is 3 am here, but as everyone else said, tr is a thing in NU. Uxie, Cofagrigus, mesprit, musharna, xatu, spiritomb, claydol, and bronzong to a lesser extent all set it up well for him. not to mention he has a good amount of bulk, and even though he doesnt have the greatest typing in fire/ground, he carries an immunity to electric, a resistance to fairy fire poison bug and steel. while fairy and fire are moot points, his immunity to electric and resistance to steel poison and bug are somewhat important in the tier. He is weak to water 4x and ground with neutral to grass ice psychic dark fighting normal dragon rock flying ghost and whatever else type im missing, this makes his safe switchins # 2 - Magmortar (13.63 %) # 5 - Eelektross (11.65 %) # 6 - [​IMG]Vileplume (11.26 %) # 8 - [​IMG]Skuntank (10.60 %) # 9 - [​IMG]Mesprit (10.55 %) # 11 - [​IMG]Mawile (9.98 %) # 17 - [​IMG]Xatu (7.39 %) # 19 - [​IMG]Pyroar (6.68 %) # 20 - [​IMG]Spiritomb (6.64 %) # 22 - [​IMG]Uxie (6.38 %) # 33 - [​IMG]Mr. Mime (4.79 %) # 34 - [​IMG]Klinklang (4.75 %) # 41 - [​IMG]Registeel (4.27 %) # 45 - [​IMG]Cofagrigus (4.09 %) i only used mons above 4% usage as thats a general tier cutoff, knowing mons below this are still used in tier but im making a point. of the 46 mons in NU 14 are safe switchins and though you could argue that offensive lo earthquake magmortar is not a safe switchin,
    Magmortar @ Expert Belt Lv. 100 -- Flame Body

    Nature: Modest - EVs: 124 HP / 252 SAtk / 132 Spd (100.0 %)

    • Flamethrower
    • Thunderbolt
    • Earthquake
    • Psychic
    # 6 - 5.38 % (15 battles)

    is the highest usage magmortar set that can 2hko camel. you could also add non banded escavalier and several others to this list depending on their sets ran. the point im making is 25% of the tier is now free switchbait for a champ that instakills nearly everything in the tier.

    I say BAN
     
  7. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    @AustinXhensL Mind explaining how Magmortar, Vileplume, Mawile, Pyroar, Klinklang, and Registeel are "safe switchins"? I at first assumed these are Pokes you were listing as ones Mega Camel can switch into (which most are), but then you go on to say Magmortar is a safe switch-in, knocking my assumption on its head. So why are they safe to switch into Mega Camel, and what can they do?
     
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  8. East's Mascot

    East's Mascot The Tyrant

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    I'm sure that your first assumption is what he meant, he said that you could argue that Magmortar was not a safe switch in because of EQ. On top of this, M-Camel does indeed switch on most of those with relative impunity, barring something like Aqua Tail Eelektross or a random HP Water.
     
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  9. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Time to wrap this up.

    Everybody seem to be in agreement about this: Mega Camerupt's superb attacking stat, excellent dual STABs further boosted by Sheer force makes it too much for NU to handle. Even though it has shortcomings, it's ability to single-handedly destroy stall/balance teams and dismantle offense with TR support is unhealthy for the tier, so from now on Cameruptite will be banned from ORAS NU.

    Thanks everyone for participating!
     
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