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[Monotype] Charizardite X suspect [Banned in Flying]

Discussion in 'Gen 6 Side Metagames' started by Edna, Nov 26, 2015.

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  1. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    [​IMG]

    Discuss the effects of Mega Charizard X on the Monotype metagame and the possibility of banning it. Post intelligently based off of experience in the metagame. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions. i.e. if you play Monotype at all, then post.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Mega Charizard X as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    If a consensus is reached or a clear majority is established, then the result will likely be implemented in the metagame, otherwise it will go to a vote. Happy suspecting.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 26, 2015
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  2. DracoNova

    DracoNova Cherlene's #1 fan

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    Here are the common sets for this majestic creature of a pokemon:

    [​IMG] >[​IMG]

    20hp/236atk/252spd/jolly nature
    • Dragon Claw
    • Dragon Dance
    • Roost
    • Flare Blitz
    252atk/252spd/jolly nature
    • Dragon Claw
    • Dragon Dance
    • Earthquake
    • Flare Blitz

    Ok so i'll give a good run through my experience with flying and fire:

    In both flying and fire teams, Charizard-X's goal is to function as a setup sweeper, a job it does all too well.

    What seperates Charizard-X from the rest of the fire-types is that it can hit almost everything with physical raw power that no other fire types can thanks to its god given ability(tough claws) from water to rock to even some ground mons. In flying types it is able to give up its flying typing in exchange for dragon, which it allows to take ice and electric type moves for neutral damage, something most flying types cant handle.

    With steel,bug,ice, and grass types, charizard-x can KO everything in the tier with or without the boosts, not being afraid of Aegislash's King Shield thanks to earthquake, and 2KO mega venusaur with flare blitz, most things not being strong or fast enough to take out Zard-x(most scarf users maybe but die to +1 atk/spd zard-x). Zard-x is able to handle water and electric types now with its dragon typing being able to ddance on most water and electric types(not advised for mega swampert,eq electivire or seismitoad). Ground teams have some chance on actually taking out charizard-x having hippowdon and quagsire to deal with it even when boosted, but once they are out there are no viable options for a counter(most of the times,sand rush excadrill from monoground can check when weather is up and zard-x has only one ddance boost). Standard Mega Altaria and Garchomp can check charizard-x but lose to it when boosted with even just one ddance. When threatened in flying teams, Zard-X can get help from Skarmory taking easily ground moves and even rock moves such as stone edge while zard-x helps in taking ice and electric moves maximizing coverage. The only major flaw charizard-x has is that it gets crippled by stealth rocks, taking 50% dmg when not mega evolved yet and 25% after. however, this isn't much of a huge problem in flying teams because it can get defog support from the common zapdos, skarmory, or mandibuzz, and in fire teams, torkoal can help cleaning the field with rapid spin(only ghost that can spit SR is golem and aegislash can spinblock in steel teams). Most of the other types find it hard to counter or even check this mon(non-scarf hydreigon gets beaten by Zard-X, Non-EQ mega gyarados gets outspeeded and 2HKOed but wins if intimidate is successful against zard-x, flare blitz OHKO mega gardevoir, mega lopunny doesnt OHKO with high jump kick while zard OHKO it with +1 dragon claw).

    -Roost set: This set can be countered more easily because it has less coverage; however, when used effectively, it can still pose a major issue. This set has a small amount of counters that stop it mid-air,few being: unaware quagsire, defensive hippowdon, earthpower heatran(can't take eq tho). Sure this set has its fair share of checks(band azumarill,scarf-landorus-t and excadrill), , but most fail when charizard begins to ddance.

    -Setup set: The more brutal set; almost little to nothing can stop it once it gets its ddance up.Sacrificing recovery for coverage, this sets aim in cleaning the team once its counters have been crippled or dealth with. like the other set, bulky unaware quagsire and hippowdon can counter Zard-X. Talon Flame, Tyranitar, and mandibuzz can check it but again, its pretty much over once they've been weaken or zard manages to ddance. Scarf Latios can check it even with boost provided it has mega evolved.

    Calculations:
    +1 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 300-354 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 345-406 (105.5 - 124.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 273-322 (64.3 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 488-576 (164.3 - 193.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 197-232 (48.7 - 57.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
    +1 252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Altaria: 151-178 (51.8 - 61.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Garchomp: 542-638 (151.8 - 178.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 139-165 (35.2 - 41.8%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery(counter)
    +1 252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 168-198 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery(counter)
    252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 226-266 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO(for roost set only)

    XY blessed Charizard with its mega evolution, and now it has become a curse. Most teams now have to run some form of scarf mon just to try to check this beast(latios, Garchomp, terrakion, salamence, keldeo). It's access to dragon dance and its mega evolution perks makes it a dangerous pokemon for the tier to handle. Its unhealthy for the monotype tier, but then again, its comes down to how well your team is prepared to handle such threats. Nevertheless, I think its broken and should be banned.
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2015
  3. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Oh well, time to put my input I guess.

    As said, Mega Charizard is a hard hitter mon that has several way of setting up ( DD/SD/Bdrum/Flame charge) and it can also act as a win con ( well it is almost everytime). it has a bad defensive type first but then dragon/fire makes it ok to tank more hits if needed.

    However I see a lot of problems with Mega zard x: It is very pressured by Stealth rocks and depending on the type can have hard time to set up.
    If we see in term of types Flying has neutral or bad matchup we can notice that:
    - Mega zard can't beat Monoground, due to Hippo/Scarf Chomp/Sand rush Driller
    - it can't beat rock ( not that it is really a thing anyway, but still)
    - it can't beat monowater, Mega Slowbro/Slowbro Regular can wall it to oblivion and spread para to make it useless. Even azumarill can check it pretty nice
    - it fears monoelectric because of prankster twave thundurus
    - it fears normal because of ditto who can just freely copy the boost and sweep the opponent team
    and also a lot of stuff with unaware/sash twave roar/sturdy.

    It is true that it beats Monosteel/Grass but that's what fire and flying are supposed to do, so I don't see it much as a problem, not like anyway Monotype is matchup reliant.

    I'm quite neutral to it being banned, it has to chose between EQ and Roost and most of the time it will pick EQ which removes recovery. Both of its typing being already pressured a lot by SR makes me believe you need a lot of preparation in order to sweep effectively. So yeah, discuss :]
     
  4. iRaimon

    iRaimon New Member

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    I think maybe it doesn't need a global ban, but only from flying type teams, as the combination of skarmory, zapdos and zard-X is very broken as together they all resist each others weaknesses, and zard-X can even run a specially defensive willo-wisp set with roost to back up the core. on pokemon showdown where I play most of my pokemon, zard x was recently banned from flying but not fire, as it is the combination of mons on flying that make it broken, where as zard-y is better on fire due to drought. so ban on flying, not fire.
     
  5. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Sadly we don't complex ban ( if it was up to me I would 100% agree with you ) so it's either a ban or nothing.

    On a side note, Drought is banned on PO so Zard Y is as well, which means you don't have 50/50 to know what Zard it is.

    I think we'll take a decision soon about it, sadly we didn't have much posts ( but we did have discussions in Tournaments where thoughts were mixed about it )
     
  6. iRaimon

    iRaimon New Member

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    I don't think it should be banned (zard X) in that case if not a complex ban so I'm gonna say, it helps balance the metagame, because 1) without either megazards steel is gonna be so broken it isn't funny, then we would be suspecting more and more mons on steel(aegislash for example) and there would be an endless loop, or we could leave steel broken as fu*k. Secondly if this is banned fire goes down the drain in terms of viability and that shouldn't happen to a type via a ban. ill elaborate more since I have to go now, but I will be voting no ban.
     
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  7. Black Ghost

    Black Ghost Member

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    In Monofire, Charizard-X isn't close to broken so lets talk about Monoflying. With the right teammates Charizard can come in without taking entry damage and set up on anything that doesn't know Stone Edge, more or less. Monoelectric really has trouble with this pokemon as nothing really hits for neutral, bar Rotom-W (this calc is a joke: 252+ SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Charizard X: 270-318 (90.9 - 107%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO)
    In my opinion it should be banned, however if it is, I feel Monosteel will run rampant so I propose we let Drought Ninetails back into the tier.
     
  8. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Ok just to make things clear, you don't ban/not ban just because it makes another typing better, Monosteel can still lose to lacking Zard X Monofire team ( if you avoid rocks) and Taunt Gliscor/Sub Gravity Landorus-T ( yes i've been trying this ) totally destroy Monosteel.

    This applies to both sides, in the current one being not ban because it makes a type way better. Monotype is open enough to creativity and Counterteam teams.

    We'll be soon giving a result to the suspect
     
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  9. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Okay, Carl how the heck did you start making decision when I didn't post ;-; ihy.

    Well, it was I who brought Zard X into suspect. Lemme get started by explaining Zard X from both types it's in. I don't think now is the time for a huge type list that lists its solutions. I'll be short and sweet.

    Fire.
    The type says it all. Fire is an extremely offensive type. With Zard Y being banned due to having drought. And with subpar megas (IMO) like Mega Camel and Hound that are greatly disadvantaged by opposing types and coverage. Zard X is like the go to mega for Fire rn. I have ran 3 sets on fire and all of em have been useful. I ran DD+3 moves, Roost/DD/2 moves and Wisp/Roost/Dtail/Defog (the last one was a crazy experiment but nonetheless I had a viable defogger whereas Torkoal is rekt by Spin blockers or at the times it's just KO'd before it spins, sigh)
    The DD+3 moves set fully reks steel on it's own. I ran Fire Punch over Flare Blitz just cause of the prevalence of Rocky Skarm and Ferro but it was still great. DClaw rekt nearly everything that resisted fire. And EQ was dere for Heatran and moar.
    When Zard X is paired up with Infernape/Rona/Talon/Tran/Tini. We get a very viable Offense that rips apart most types but is ripped but some uncommon types if not played properly. But the moment you sack ZardX from your team. Your team would suck ass. Non Zard X teams in fire are pretty rare and/or they do not work properly at times. So removing Zard X could be a mistake we didn't expect.

    Flying.
    Thing is a complex ban can't take place here. So it's ban or no ban. And since, I am leaning on no proper side. I'll just discuss what Zard X is able to do and let the TLs decide.
    Zard X be it the Roost+3 Moves set, DD+3 moves set or the DD/Roost/2 moves is an extremely viable mon. It resists Electric, something that usually hits flying very hard if not for the prevalence of Lando/Glis. And is neutral to Ice. Zard X paired with the VoltTurn core of Torn-T/Thundy-T or the defensive core of ZapSkarmGlis is a threatening pokemon which has a very chance of fainting unless it's support core is fully dismantled.
    So Zard X is pretty broken here.

    So at the end we have..
    If we ban- We'll lose a pretty good setup sweeper from fire and flying.
    The banning of Zard X would make people move to Mega Hound or Camel and see how they work.
    Steel would make a comeback which might end up being an unhealthy thing for the meta. Grass and Bug may start flourishing but Fire would still rek but eh who knows?
    If it isn't banned.
    Fire as a type won't lose it's overall place in the food chain. Steel would be in check. People can just have fun with whatever types they like. Water might make a miraculous comeback (It probably did I am not sure)
    Flying on the other hand wouldn't use Mega Gyara/Altaria that much IMO. As Mega Zard X has a better ability over Gyara and a better stat spread over Altaria to ab00s DD. So these megas migh end up unused.
    Even then flying will be broken as ever and whatnot.
    Since I am neither pro nor anti ban. It's more or less up to the SMTLs to read these and decide what's the healthiest option.
     
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  10. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Hi, I have good news.
    Complex bans are now implemented in the Monotype tier. This means we will most likely retest stuff (Genesect for bug) , retest suspects ( Aegi for Steel) and for this suspect it means Charizardite X might get banned only in Monoflying.

    That also means now you have to focus a lot more to why the pokemon is more broken in one type and not in the second ( in the current case, what makes Zard X much more threatening in Monoflying than Monofire)

    I'm also sorry if this suspect has been up for so long but it was difficult to chose if we had to ban or not ban, which is why we asked for complex bans to happen in the Monotype metagame. However, beware it doesn't mean we will test stuff like Kyurem-W in Ice or in any case attempt to make our tier closer to Smogon's. So if you want to ask for retests in the Discussion Thread, make sure your post makes sense and be strong enough to make us suspect/retest a Pokémon. Have fun
     
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  11. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    Then ban Zard X in MonoFly shall we?
     
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  12. Edna

    Edna Chasing the Dragon Forum Moderator Tournament Host Forum Moderator Tournament Host

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    Since the discussion was heavily oriented to ban Zard X only in flying and not in Fire, it will be banned only in Flying.
    Charizard X being a set up too powerfull in the tier, able with the good support to bypass Monoflying weeknesses makes it very dangerous for the tier and to sweep unprepared team if rocks are removed ( which is not hard with Skarmory or Zapdos ).
    Tier will be updated soon and we'll do some tests very soon so stay up to date! @Fuzzysqurl pls :)
     
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