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[HGSS] 4th gen needs dragons

Discussion in 'Past Gens Discussion' started by Harry, Dec 19, 2010.

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  1. Harry

    Harry Banned

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    We have... Flygon and Dragonite.. Uhhh... Lame. Latias come backk :( Salamence come backk :(
    This gen has become dominated by subseed, heatran/celebi, skarmbliss. We have no good wallbreakers anymore. Infernape dies too quickly, it's just.. a sadly overcentralized gen I'm afraid.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 19, 2010
  2. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

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    well that's a hard on to ask for does anything ever come back from ubers?
     
  3. Jcpdragonx

    Jcpdragonx the business business

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    Dragonite says no.
     
  4. SOMALIA

    SOMALIA The King.

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    Dragonite and Shaymin are great wallbreakers, and yeah the game was alot more versatile with Salamence OU
     
  5. alan

    alan Guest

    It was 1000000000000000000000000000x more centralized with those Dragons in OU. During Latias most of the teams had 3Steels3Dragons. Or at the most versatile 2Steels2Dragons2Others, usually a bulky water, i.e. swampert and some fast revenger, i.e. scarftar. It was by far the single worst metagame I have ever played, besides this very early stage of Gen 5. The _last_ thing Gen 4 needs is more Dragons.
     
  6. Slipperjeans

    Slipperjeans Loose pants

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    Dragons are so fun and we have none :(
     
  7. Cpt. Falcon

    Cpt. Falcon Member

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    we've also got altaria :3 dont forget our uu dragon
     
  8. Drigger

    Drigger Fabula Nova Crystallis

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    lol is altaria a drgon or a fluffy birdie?? :3 \

    and you forgot Kingdra!!! Kingdra is Pro!

    I agree more dragons are needed! The meta is Heatran ville and SkarmBliss land and Stall Stall Stall we need Pokes to Break those Stupid trends
     
  9. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

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    Stall always wins out in the end...

    But really, alan is right. 3Dragons3Steels was way too prevalent, and it was because it was really the only way to play.
     
  10. Stofil

    Stofil Hello Miss Galaxy

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    A strange game, the only winning move is not to play
     
  11. coolking49

    coolking49 New Member

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    QFT

    You claim the metagame is dominated by 4 pokemon when back then it was dominated by 3 (scizor, latias, and mence). Go figure
     
  12. george182

    george182 Active Member

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    what do people have against the current metagame? we have a metagame where all types of battling are effective, stall, semi stall, ballanced, Offense and Hyper offense. The amount of effective pokemon in this current metagame is more than ever before, the banning of dragons has allowed loads of other pokemon to be used. F/W/G is the replacement for 1 dragon, because that is an easy way to get the same resitances that a dragon type provided, there is also so many more different combinations of pokes that can be used in an F/W/G core than there is in a tripple dragon team.

    This is the best metagame I have played:
    Chomp Era (sucked)
    Tripple Dragon Tripple Steel (Sucked)
    Specs Latias Era (sucked)
    Mence Era (Sucked)
    "F/W/G Era" (Good) although its not really an FWG era, but w/e
     
  13. Blue_Star

    Blue_Star Banned

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    Gen 4 NEEDS more dragons. Latias is fine in ubers, it works greatly there and it overcentralizes the OU metagame.

    But the dragons that remained are shit. Dragonite is too slowz, it can be revenge killed even by scarf heracross, if it attempts to sweep. Flygon is extremely weak. It's so weak that it thunderpunch does 40% to a resttalk gyarados, not to mention the fact that it has NO setup moves.

    And salamence in ubers is non sense. Salamence's usage there is almost like wynaut's one. Who needs a dragon with 80 defenses and only 135 attacks when you can have a dragon with 150 attack, 90 defenses and better movepool?
     
  14. User Name

    User Name Life is a maze

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    @Blue_Star
    Because you get sent to Ubers for being too strong in the OU tier, not being too strong in OU AND being awesome in Ubers. :P
     
  15. Gator

    Gator New Member

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    did any1 even mention kingdra >_> its rain dance set has sum wallbreakin numbers i believe
     
  16. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

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    Kingdra's special Rain Dance set is pretty awesome; I've never found the physical or mixed sets to be as good, but the special set hits really hard with Hydro Pump and Dragon Pulse. It's walled by Blissey and bulky waters though ;_;
     
  17. Whereabouts Unknown

    Whereabouts Unknown Absolutely Stunning

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    PO Trainer Name:
    Miki Sayaka
    I see a Dragon.
    Charizard (M) @ Life Orb
    Trait: Blaze
    EVs: 176 Atk / 160 SAtk / 172 Spd
    Rash Nature (+Satk, -SDef)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Blast
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    Fckyeah StallBreak Charizard. Too bad it sucks eh. Might work if you had a scrappy Rapid Spinner .-.
    >Imagine you're facing a very likely and useable team of Swampert, Tyranitar, Shaymin, Skarmory, Heatran, and Gliscor.
    :3
    This is also usable to disprove a point made in your thread about Gen 4 being the best, when someone said lower tier pokes suck in Gen IV.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2011
  18. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    i honestly think that mence was tested too soon after the latias ban, none waited to really give the post latias meta time to settle and the fact that a seperate ladder was made for mence's tests and only 9 people off that ladder were voting was a really stupid idea. mence coming back would be great even if for a retest or to as many of us agree that smogon's judgement isn't what it used to be.

    heatran is constantly pushing 35-40% usage, scarmbliss is a bitch to break as the only stall-breaker that ever seems to work (for me anyway) is ape and there are way too many walls for him to be efficient. and also as there isn't but 4 dragons in ou (including mence) i don't see the double dragon double steel dominance being too huge an issue. this not only will control stall but it will control heatran scizor may see a slight increase in usage, pert likely will, plausibly cune, and steels will see more usage.

    mence will cause an offensive meta yes but it won't be like the meta from when latias was around i like how mence was charged with centralization when it's would be counters (some of them) are only checks if even that because they are loosing a lot of hp just for switching in due to rocks there are reason to ban something but the support aspect when you only have an educated guess at a pokemon's effect on a give meta and it's not like wobb who had such a reliable support ability and could easily make a mess in a less hectic meta than the one it was banned in.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  19. Harry

    Harry Banned

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    Fidgety: I agree. thank you.
     
  20. phop

    phop Member

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    Salmence and Latias were rightly made Uber because they overcentalized the OU metagame. I actually wanted Salmence Uber months before Smogon tested it as it was just sweepin' though the majority of teams with ease. It had no counters and I always had to sacrivice a Poke to find what set it was running to then counter reliably. I was a little sceptical of Latias going back to the Uber tier as I thought it fitted nicely in OU but I trust Smogons judgement :)
     
  21. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    personally smogon has been going way down hill, i'm amazed that they only banned swift swim with drizzle i had been anticipating an outright drizzle ban.

    but if you are sceptical about mence remember rocks screw so many pokes that we have former bl and ou pokes to the middle of nu (regice and articuno anyone) there are just so many pokemon that rocks renders unusable and mence gets scape-goated because some of them would help control it and none is prepared to play without it despite it being very possible, but when people run entire team members just to get stealth rock up (admitedly myself included) it generally says that something is amiss.
     
  22. phop

    phop Member

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    SR doesn't counter Mence, it only resticts its switch-ins. It stills destoys shit eitherway.
     
  23. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    ok, you misunderstood what i was saying, rocks remove the viability of many of mence's stops not it stops mence. that is what i was getting at, rocks are centralizing everything not necessarily mence or latias.

    edit: latias could be worth testing as it at least has a counter (scarf-tar) but obviously seperately from mence.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
  24. SalvaPot

    SalvaPot Member

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    I never had problems with dragons, tough more use of dragonite is good =D
     
  25. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    this thread is more about bringing back either mence or latias, nite is good but it's speed really hurts it, gon doesn't have enough output, and kingdra falls short of the base 100's and needs a + atk/spa nature to do it's job sweeping meaning it loses to more stuff than it did with a + spe nature.
     
  26. cosmicexplorer

    cosmicexplorer SWAG

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    Cress and P2 countered Mence easily last gen. P2 could be messed up by Mixmence if it got unlucky, but Cresselia at least could take any attack from Mence and OHKO in return with Ice Beam.
     
  27. Wulfert

    Wulfert It is me

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    Yeah, Mence's biggest check was P2 or something. Until people learned what Draco Meteor is.
     
  28. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    and cress dropped down to uu usage wise for a reason despite it's insane bulk it couldn't keep itself useful in the meta after the shift following the chomp ban as most of what it stopped it had no way to seriously threaten due to meh offenses. i was refering to counters that actually see usage in ou.
     
  29. For The Troll

    For The Troll Banned

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    mhmhm yh latias/mence isnt a really afraid IMO,And smogon says banned mixmence not Mence ( in the old times ) i think this i ok, but comeback salamence D: only mixmence go to trash with latios/garchomp/rayquaza/latias/palkia/dialga/giratina.
     
  30. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    the reason mence was banned as a whole instead of just mixmexce (i was watching the suspect debate didn't argue anything as i didn't think it would make sense for a guy who's shoddy wasn't functioning yet to get in on a debate that could be influential on the environment of said sim and others)was that, it sets a horrible double standard and you also have to establish what makes mence mixmence as the dd set would run fire blast to help dispose of levitating/physically defensive steels for example.

    so really when i think about this actually latias is the best bet i'm taking pity on coyo and the programing crew as bringing back mence is extra work for them beyond altering the ban list in other words establishing multiple complicated clauses (if i'm wrong on this correct me), as well as avoiding an entire thread just to figure out what constitutes mixmence and really banning move combos is a bad idea to begin with in the case that this somehow falls through.
     
  31. EonFriend

    EonFriend Member

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    Banning Draco Meteor on Salamence seems fine to me. After that, it looks very OU, considering that there will be many hard counters now like Swampert, Suicune, Porygon2, Cressilia and Gyarados, along with all those priority checks and Stealth rock out there. Dragonite's speed is just pitiful for a sweeper, Kingdra lacks a physical Dragon move other than Outrage and also lacks Fire and Ground moves. Flygon seems to be doing the closest thing that non-DD Salamence did, at it isn't very good at that at all. The metagame has become very static now, with the Fire-Water-Grass cores walling nearly everything and prolonging the game to an eventual end through Entry hazards and other passive damage (pretty much stall). Not much versatility in gen 4 OU at all now...........
     
  32. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    the issue with that is as i tried to point out in my previous post that banning cirtain moves/move combos sets a very bad double standard then we have stuff like testing darkrai without void or np etc. bad idea not even smogon has fallen that far (admitedly smogon's fall went the other way, over banning) but bad idea no matter how you look at it.
     
  33. phop

    phop Member

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    Wrong. Cress does not counter mixmence as DM and Outrage will KO.
     
  34. -Manaphy--

    -Manaphy-- Overconsumption

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    He meant DD mence. In don't know if MixMence runs Draco Meteor and Outrage on the same set either..
     
  35. at ease

    at ease New Member

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    I would be fine with bringing back Salamence, but Latias OU was a joke. :| It sucked major ass.
     
  36. EonFriend

    EonFriend Member

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    Yeah, you're right, then people will start demanding all sorts of Ubers in OU without their good moves and stuff, which will be really chaotic. I ought to think about my ideas in a more realistic fashion I guess.....but Salamence OR Latias must return to bring back that action of that previous fun OU metagame.
     
  37. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    nope standard dd mance was dd, outrage, eq, and fire blast no dm. and as the problem was mixmence who usually runs dm over dd phop's point stands.

    mixmence became what it was because it could run dm and fire blast more effectively than nite with more speed without losing outrage.
    @roman latias has the same spa as mence but is containable due to inferior physical bulk 80/90 vs 95/80 with intimidate, no physical attack no way to boost it's speed without a scarf and no way to easily beat bulky steels, so it isn't as bad as you make it seem next to mence honestly a retest of latias would allow us to confirm that the meta from when mence and lati were around was only mence's influence or if it was the doing of both of them.
    @eon it is very possible only lati will be needed back as it could handle stall well enough without mence's insane power from both sides of the plate.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2011
  38. Ginku

    Ginku Banned

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    I like the current/latest meta, but for the sake of Mence not being broken [in my opinion] (I also don't want to sark a tiering-war here, it's just my opinion) I'll have to agree that we need more dragons.

    The real point of my post, however, is that Flygon sucks. Really. It's pathetic.
     
  39. fidgety

    fidgety Active Member

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    honestly mence was pushing it i didn't agree with the decision but that's life. gon is ok it just doesn't hit hard enough to fill the mence-less void.
     
  40. EonFriend

    EonFriend Member

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    Latias in OU looks better since we have a lot of Tyranitar and Scizor for Pursuiting and revenging her. Latias could be countered by so many physical scarfers if she threatened to sweep, and the bulky calm mind variant falls hard to all those hard hitting steel types out there. Latias and Heatran will have quite a bit of competition since Heatran can only threaten her with a 2HKOing Dragon Pulse and Latias can also 2HKO Heatran with Surf, so there will be a lot of top-tier action in OU. Latias is also a great answer to those rampaging fighting types like Infernape and Machamp. The effects are endless, and Latias wasn't really giving that much trouble to most of the Overused Pokémon during her stay anyway. Well, I had seen Latias in OU gen 4 matches only for like 1 week for I had joined just before she got banned, so I still don't know how to play with or against Latias in OU practically, but she seems stoppable. Latias in OU must be real fun.
     
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