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Suspect Discussion - Zoroark (Banned)

Discussion in 'Gen 6 LU' started by Celestial Phantom, Dec 13, 2015.

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  1. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    [​IMG]
    Discuss the possibility of banning Zoroark from the ORAS LU metagame. Zoroark is being suspected due to it's amazing move pool, awesomely deceptive ability, and the sheer support it provides a team offensively.

    Make sure you post intelligently based off of experience in the tier. Posts based off theorymon risk forum infractions.

    Attempt to find the checks and counters (or lack thereof) for Zoroark as well as its impact and power in the metagame. Do not simply say "it's broken" or "it's not broken". Back up your arguments on why you think it should be banned or not.

    Most importantly, elaborate on your points and try to think of counter arguments as you're posting. No one or two sentence posts will be allowed, and this will be strictly enforced.

    If a consensus is reached, the result will likely be implemented in the metagame.
     
  2. Purpleseamonkey

    Purpleseamonkey PO Alt: y0

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    Zoro is a huge threat in LU

    Its offensive presence is excellent. Great 105/120 mixed stats. High 105 spe tier helps it out speed most of the meta. Devastating coverage moves such as Flamethrower, uturn, Suckerpuch+ pursuit (very good with illusion, more on that later), Night daze, lowkick, and extrasensory. With so much utility and type coverage available to it, Zoro is able to check numerous threats on HO. In addition to attacking moves, Zoro also gets great tools to punish more passive checks in swords dance, nasty plot, taunt, trick. These moves add an extra sweeper/stallbreaker dimension and make it more dangerous to switch around Zoro in general. So we get to illusion

    Illusion is a very powerful ability that requires a decent amount of thought and teambuilding to use. But in the hands of a competent player it can be absolutely fatal. Defensive fairies(there are 2) coming in to check Zoro works on paper. But the issue with this is that when Zoro is played right, you should never know for sure when it needs to be checked. The initial first turn is all zoroark needs to start countless mindgames with things that would normally check it such as hitmonlee, nidoqueen, ambipalm, and Liepard. Or get a first turn taunt/trick that is almost impossible to predict. Or pursuit trap using the threat of another mon (on key pokes such as Slowking, Banette, Celebi, Siglith, Jelli, Gross, Cofag, Meloetta). Without illusion these mons would have more counterplay and incentive to stay in and predict. That initial first turn requires no hazard control to work and can potentially end a game. Zoro can do this throughout the match (admittedly more situationally) and is never dead weight given how powerful suckerpunch, uturn, or knock off all are. It creates a huge amount of uncertainty for an opponent unlike anything in the tier and is too effective at filling a lot of roles. We should ban zoroark

    *Had to update to 2.6.2 (Finally works on my mac but i have no sprites :0!) but now that sludge bomb is available, it makes this thing a lot better to say the least
     
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2015
  3. Draciel

    Draciel ALLEZ! ALLEZ! ALLEZ!

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    Zoroark is nothing but a monster in LU. High attacking stats, decent speed and it's ability to hit on both sides of the spectrum with it's powerful STAB Dark-type attacks and a plethora of coverage moves make it an offensive powerhouse. But to top it all is it's ability: Illusion. Illusion puts tremendous offensive pressure on the opposing team, as every move they make is basically a 50/50 mindgame, and one wrong move can easily lead to a Zoroark sweep. The amount of sets it can run is also astounding - Scarf, Band, Specs, NP, Mix LO/Mix without LO, SD, etc, most of which can also very easily alter their coverage move to beat it's specific checks.

    The NP set looks the most threatening, and with Sludge bomb being available now bulky fairies like Aromatisse are no longer viable checks to it. Focus blast takes care of Scrafty/Pangoro/Spdef Mega Steelix, Hitmontop also doesn't take a +2 Focus blast well and if it's running Extrasensory then it's OHKOed. SD sets with powerful STAB Knock off/Sucker punch/Low Kick is quite good as well, however it does get walled by Aromatisse/Granbull/Togetic. Mixed LO sets are probably the most common variants, and have no real 'checks' in the tier.

    Best way to deal with Zoroark is by revenge killing with super-effective priority and/or faster revenge killers like scarf Flygon/Tyrantrum/Emboar. However scarf mons need to be wary about eating a +2 Sucker punch as it can easily OHKO most of them unless resist; can't really think of anything else at this point.

    Tl;dr: Zoroark has unmatched offensive potential in LU with almost zero drawbacks, and what it brings to the table in terms of sheer offense is just too much for the tier. So just ban it already!
     
    Aurist and Joeypals!! like this.
  4. Joyverse

    Joyverse Back for a blast!

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    I understood why Aurist told me to post. Lemme make this the first post of mine in 2k16!!

    I wish for @Zoroark to be banned cause he is not being my illicit waifu...
    OH WAIT.

    Zoroark is able to run several sets out of which I'll point out two, the sets which I had used the most.
    The NP/Dark Pulse (Night Daze)/Flamethrower/Sludge Bomb(OR MAYBE FOCUS MISS!!!) set with LO or Ebelt or Sash.
    This, coupled with the base 105 speed that Zoro gets pretty showers hate on the regen core and poor Aromatisse at +2 plus given the uncertainty of either having U-Turn and/or Illusion already making counterplay harder. It is not hard to say that it really gets the time to setup unless faced with extremely strong voltturn pressure offered by most HO teams (Jolteon/Scarf Brav/Scarf Flygon to name a few) and at +2 AV Escavalier stands no chance and oh you say AV King and AV Tangrowth? I don't have access to a calc rn but iirc only Tangrowth at best check Zoro given that Zoro has a 6% (not sure could be 7% on 252 HP/252+ spdef) to 2HKO tang. Slowking take huge punishment from Dark Pulse. As for the rest, nothing can straight in switch in to a +2 or even an unboosted Dark Pulse and not risk getting 2HKOd (again Illusion comes in play, I can make my Zoroark masquerade as Celebi so that I can rape that Sigilyph of yours js...)
    The entire metagame metagame atm, seems to be very much destroyed by this set. SpDef MegaLix, SpDef Mega Aggron and Max SpDef Tang AV are the only thing that I can get off my head that can at best tank a single hit and phaze or in the case of Tangrowth use giga drain or focus blast. Mega Aggron and Steelix are more suspectible to Focus Blast. And oh, it can have Extrasensory for Hitmontop (which is another check which I just remember) so bye bye top! :D
    Now that Sludge Bomb is availiable, rip Aromatisse, I mean it, rip Aromatisse.

    B-but wait! There is also another set that I have probably used on Zoroark since day 1 and it is the mixed variant which is LO/Dread Plate for item.
    252 Atk/4 SpA/252 Speed (Hasty or Naive) with Knock Off/Sucker Punch/Flamethrower/U-Turn

    This set, coupled with Celebi and Hitmonlee make a pretty decent Dark-Fight-Psych HO core. Given that it has U-Turn it very easily switch out of Aromatisse, the set's only decent counter imo (But you can actually change to Poop Bomb but eh.. And oh Spiritomb needs a mention here but knock off still does a number and I haz U-turn so kek) and switch into Celebi who can then move on to SD/NP right in the face and sweep. But then you might say, "LMFAO I HAZ SCARF SIGIL/ROTOM-C!!!" but then what I can do just U-Turn on the switch or just hard switch to Hitmonlee who wouldn't mind tanking a signal beam (rip lee if sigil uses air slash or psyshock ;-;) but if it does not. All I need is to fake out and remove the unnecessary scarf mons and let lee die in the process so I can den move on to sweep with Celebi/Zoroark. Slowking straight down gets OHKOd by Knock Off, and sucker punch is well punch some suckers like derp scarf tyrant >:I or Acronoob before it gets to hit its acrobatics. This set is checked by some pokemon pretty decently imo, Mons like SpDef MegaLix, SpDef Mega Aggron, AV Escavalier can check at Max HP, Nidoqueen and a few more but given it has supportive teammates (and it can have more teammates, I do not run 6 mons for trolling, I run 6 mons to deal damage) It can deal damage on all the 6 opposing mons meaning it applies a lot of offensive pressure. And again I will mention Illusion, this ability is gold on such a pokemon. You can basically have Slowking vs. Celebi in one moment but then you see the slowking outspeeding you knocking off your cabbage's head off and it's already over.

    I took my time to explain just two sets. LOL, there are 2-3 sets more iirc, one being the SD Set. Giving the uncertainty of its sets and the sharp amount of reduced counterplay given due to Illusion and finally the ability to sweep through teams given its high offensive stats and above average movepool. I think it is too broken and hence unhealthy for the current LU metagame. So ban it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2015
    Purpleseamonkey likes this.
  5. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    So, not much for replies here, but had a fair discussion on the Server about Zoroark. We are gonna go through with Banning Zoroark from ORAS LU.

    A combination of a fantastic ability in Illusion, access to Nasty Plot and Swords Dance with strong enough move pool to supply the sets with a wide range of options, strong offense stats, as well as pressuring much of the Metagame as well with Choice sets and having access to Trick, Zoroark has very few equals in LU. There are some "checks" but, it has enough access that it will damage and cripple bulkier Pokemon and be able to kill many Pokemon of mediocre bulk. Its very specific checks are lacking proper use and support even in the current Metagame to effectively deal with Zoroark over the course of a match.

    TL;DR - Zoroark hits hard enough, has a speed that's hard to compare with, and the faster Pokemon have such mediocre bulk that Sucker Punch will generally screw them over in one hit with a little extra damage from say SR or Spikes. With Steels no longer resisting Dark moves, it's hard to justify using many of them especially when Low Kick/Flamethrower can be ran to deal with them, but only when it's needed from an unboosted stand point to check Zoroark. We'll decide on where to go after Zoroark is gone after settling the meta for a little while.
     
    Aurist, Joyverse and Joeypals!! like this.
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