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[Video Games] How would you improve Smash Bros?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Professor Oak, Dec 16, 2015.

  1. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    I thought of this thanks to the question of the day thread where a question was asked about what was the most unnecessary character in Smash.

    So, how would you improve Smash Bros for Wii U / 3DS?
    and don't just say "make it melee"


    -----------------------------------------


    My first post on this is going to be about the character roster. I think removing the pointless characters I mentioned is a good start: Dr Mario, Toon Link, Lucina, Roy, Dark Pit and Falco.

    Falco is the most controversial one, though it is easily remedied: Replace him with Krystal. Her staff from Star Fox Adventures would lead to a different playstyle overall, and would make for a better alternative to Fox than a clone off-shoot. If they could change Wolf's moveset a bit, he'd be a good replacement too... but that's for another post.

    Dark Pit can be swapped out for another same-universe character too. Magnus could have been more interesting when compared to Dark Pit, but I'm going to avoid adding another swordsman... so I'm going for Hades. More bad guy representation, his sense of humour and voice acting is hilarious in Uprising, and he's pretty powerful. He'd make for a very fun character to create and play as.

    Dr Mario comes from the Mario series, which has a ton of representation already. If you wanted to add another Mario series character, you'd need to have something new, exciting, something that people really want. Ideas such as Paper Mario or Dry Bowser could work, but I fear that they'd just be sloppy clones too.
    Potential ideas here are: Antasma from Mario & Luigi: Dream Team; Cackletta or Fawful from Mario & Luigi: Superstar Saga; Petey Piranha from Super Mario Sunshine; Birdo, originally from Super Mario Bros. 2 (USA), but with her modern stylising; and more!
    ...okay, we all really know this slot would ideally belong to Geno from Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, but I wanted to point out that multiple other characters could work AND NOT BE A CLONE!

    Toon Link also comes from a series with a fair bit of representation also: Link, Zelda, Ganondorf and Sheik are all in the LoZ franchise. Another ton of characters exist in the LoZ universe exist, and lots that are not just another version of Link!
    Potential ideas here are: Ghirahim, from Skyward Sword; Zant, Midna or Twili Midna, from Twilight Princess; Cia or Lana, from Hyrule Warriors; and more!
    I would personally go with Ghirahim. I know, another swordfighter isn't ideal, but he's got the natural flair, the speed, the magic, the badassery to be a good Smash character, instead of just an assist trophy. Midna could also work if you put her on Wolf Link (as in TP) or on a Shadow Beast (as in Hyrule Warriors). You could even have both, utilising an empty slot that will eventually be freed up once I'm done.

    This leaves me with Lucina and Roy. Lucina is a direct clone of Marth, except with no tipper mechanics. Roy was added to sell copies of Fire Emblem: Binding Blade, and was replaced with the more popular Ike in Brawl. Both of these characters are pointless additions to Smash 4: Lucina adds nothing new, as Robin is the Fire Emblem: Awakening; and Ike is still more popular compared to Roy, as well as having a radically different moveset to Marth. So both of these are being removed.
    The release of Corrin as DLC to promote Fates is... exactly like adding Roy to Melee. However, at least Corrin appears to not just be a Marth clone. I'm alright with Corrin coming in still as DLC. But that's it for Fire Emblem. Marth, Ike, Robin, Corrin. No more.

    So at this point, I've got Geno > Dr Mario, Ghirahim > Toon Link, Wolf > Falco, and Hades > Dark Pit, and I've removed Lucina and Roy from the roster, so I have 2 spare slots.

    What about the rest of the roster? Are they okay to remain?

    The other DLC characters are mostly alright. Ryu, Cloud, Mewtwo, Bayonetta... all of those are fresh and new... or at least, a return that should have happened sooner in Mewtwo's case. Lucas is more questionable. However, he's more popular than Ness, and does have a few notable differences in his moves. I think he's alright to stay, but I would change up some of his moves... which is a whole different post.

    The original 12 characters are something I would not change either: Mario, Luigi, Yoshi, DK, Link, Samus, Kirby, Fox, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, the aforementioned Ness and Captain Falcon. They started the series off, and I'm more than happy to keep them in until the series dies off.

    Peach, Bowser, Diddy Kong, Zelda, Sheik, Ganondorf, Meta Knight, Dedede, the aforementioned Marth and Ike, G&W, Pit, Wario, Olimar, ROB and Sonic are all returning characters from Melee and Brawl. All of them deserve their places in the roster too, due to being unique, notable and enjoyable characters.

    Of the newcomers: Bowser Jr. and the Koopalings, Robin, Palutena, Little Mac, Shulk, Mega Man, Pac-Man and the Mii Fighters are all notable characters from various games that I feel also deserve to be included.

    ...have you noticed I've excluded a fair few characters yet? I've already commented on a few of them, but there's a few I haven't.

    I can't really understand why Zero Suit Samus is there... except for fan service. Metroid: Other M and Metroid: Zero Mission have shown Samus in her "Zero Suit", but why include her? The main reason there would be the lack of other notable Metroid characters that could be viable as fighters in Smash. Ridley is too large, as are other boss characters from the Metroid series. Dark Samus would be an option, but would be a heavier-hitting version of normal Samus, and we've established that clones are bad. The only other options would be Adam Malkovich from Metroid: Other M, or one of the other hunters introduced in the Nintendo DS exclusive Metroid Hunters. Combine this fact with the knowledge that ZSS vastly differs from her original self, and we can leave her in.

    I'm also okay with Villager and Wii Fit Trainer:
    Wii Fit Trainer is the only non-balance board representative from the Wii Fit series, and most moves are part of the poses done in that series. It's a well made character.
    Villager could be replaced by any number of other Animal Crossing characters in theory, but none would actually have moves that you could understand. Animal Crossing is one of Nintendo's biggest franchises, and it would be a shame if it went unrepresented.

    Duck Hunt Duo... is such a shit character. I love it, I think it's awesome that it's in there, but you were always going to struggle to give it a good moveset. I'm quite unsure how this could be fixed, if I'm honest. I think dropping Duck Hunt to an assist trophy (to fill the gap Ghirahim created), keeping the Duck Hunt stage and freeing another character slot is what would have been best for Smash 4. Said assist could work by having the ducks fly about, and then get shot periodically... or not. A set amount of ducks would be shot before the trophy runs out though.

    This brings me to the Pokémon. More specifically, I will be talking about Charizard, Lucario and Greninja.
    Pikachu is the mascot of the series. Jigglypuff was a recurring anime character, and it gained a good following. Both were in the original game too. As such, these are staples.
    Mewtwo was the original "legendary". He was the pinnacle of Pokémon in Gen 1. He starred in a movie, appeared in several anime episodes and starred in several special episodes too, including Pokémon Origins. No one can argue that Mewtwo belongs in Smash as well.

    Charizard, whilst technically a veteran, split away from the Pokémon Trainer from Brawl due to the 3DS not handling transformations well (the same reason why Samus/ZSS and Zelda/Sheik were split). So... why not have Squirtle and Ivysaur as well? Implementing Zard X as its Final Smash is cool, I guess. Charizard is probably the most popular of all starter Pokémon in existance, hence why it received 2 Mega Evolutions instead of 1 when Gen 6 arrived. This popularity alone is enough to save him in my eyes, but if I had to choose another character to cut to make room for something else, Zard would be the next to go.

    Greninja... I don't get why Game Freak is so obsessed with Greninja. They gave it one of the best abilities ever made, Protean, they let it be added to Smash 4, they are adding a new forme for the anime for Ash... It baffles me. I do like how Greninja plays in Smash 4, and he is insanely popular due to its strengths. As modern Pokémon representation, and the way he plays significantly differently from the other characters on the roster (ignoring its Final Smash), Greninja can stay.

    Which brings us to Lucario, Mewtwo's replacement in Brawl. Lucario was added to represent and promote the 4th Generation of Pokémon due to its role in the 8th Pokémon movie, Pokémon: Lucario and the Mystery of Mew. It was also notable in Gen 4 due to its role as a very powerful sweeper in OU. Most people didn't like him though, primarily because he replaced Mewtwo. I don't really understand why Lucario has continued to be in Smash 4. There are now 721 Pokémon, not including alternative forms. The only other movie character to not be a legendary is Zoroark. Is this why Lucario remains?
    The only cool thing about Lucario, in my opinion, is the aura mechanic. Increased damage as it takes more damage is a nice mechanic indeed... but it isn't really Lucario. Lucario needs to be removed, in my opinion.


    So this leaves me with 4 empty slots.
    In an ideal world, I'd gladly welcome back the Ice Climbers and Snake - both are insanely popular, due to their previous Smash versions or just being a generally popular character. 2 more slots remain.

    I'd like to have seen King K. Rool, the main villian in the original Donkey Kong Country series, appear in Smash 4. He can use his standard attacks from the series, such as throwing his crown, using a blunderbuss cannon, or using his helipack from DKC3. It'd be a good addition from the Donkey Kong series that is NOT a part of the Mario extended family, as well as providing another badass yet different character to the roster.

    The final roster slot... I think no one can argue that Banjo & Kazooie would be a fantastic addition. They have multiple moves, the characters have fantastic charm... it'd also be an amazing way to draw Rare fans over to Smash if they were sticking with the Xbox, which would be a fantastic marketting idea... if Microsoft would allow it.


    So there we have it. I would remove Toon Link, Dr Mario, Falco, Dark Pit, Lucina, Roy, Duck Hunt Duo and Lucario, and add Krystal, Hades, Geno, Ghirahim, Ice Climbers, Snake, King K. Rool and Banjo & Kazooie.

    How would you change / improve the roster?

    I'll do additional posts on moves, mechanics and other things.
     
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  2. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    I'll speak for Kid Icarus, because if you can't tell by my two Mafia themes (omg yes that still exists :ooo) and signature, Uprising is one of my favorite games.

    I agree with you that something should be done with Dark Pit, it's a shameless clone of Pit that seemed to be added as a struggle for a third character. I don't think completely removing him from the game is completely necessary though, but rather adding him as a skin for Pit as the rest of the Koopalings were for Bowser Jr., and female Robin was for male Robin. We can also extend this to Lucina for Marth, with Roy staying if actually made his own character.

    As for replacements, Hades does seem like the most tantalizing addition -- after all, he did a crapload of moves (especially that sequence where Pit is in Pursuit mode, that rainbow apocalypse of an outfit!), but there are a few other characters to be mentioned too. As you said in your post, Magnus is an option, but he'd end up being yet another bland swordfighter -- and we just got a swordfighter in Cloud! (though he's fantastic).

    That would leave us with, essentially, pure Forces of Nature options, and my person choice would be Arlon. Just like Hades, he has a wide array of moves, though obviously less wide than Hades. That being said, he has this cool and collected personality that strikes a nice contrast to Pit/Dark Pit and, in some cases, Palutena. Phosphora's also another option, though I'd argue she should have a less powerful version, flipped version of Lucario's aura -- strongest and fastest when she has low damage, lower and weaker when she's high. It makes sense in terms of an actual battle and would give her a unique flair on top of her ranged electrical attacks. The final option would be Viridi, which while she's more prominent in the story than Arlon and Phosphora along with more personality, we never actually see what she can do. Yes she can fire Reset Bombs, but those are Factory made, anyone with her status could control those. And while she is able to make others fly, how would she be able to use that herself when she doesn't have wings? I fear she would end up being a weak Palutena clone with a bit of mechanics like Makar from Windwaker, where he was able to make trees grow. Overall, she wouldn't fit.

    That being said, let's discuss a new assist trophy for Kid Icarus. This will work even more if Phosphora or Magnus took a character spot over Dark Pit because that'd free up a spot, but there's nothing wrong with adding a spot as well. The one character from Kid Icarus that I'd love to see as an assist trophy is none other than good ole Cragalanche. I feel like he'd end up being a mix of Punching Joe and Dillon while adding his own flair. What he can do is walk around slowly, punching people and throwing rocks, or roll around because he is a giant rock. In the end, he can have an Electrode-type explosion, except slightly wider with a bit less damage. Like some of the other assists, he can be taken out if hit though I find the "if enough damage is taken" thing to be a cop-out. If I were designing it, I would have Cragalanche taken out after he takes 40% damage, though hitting the front side would be 1/4 of the damage to the damage received to the back end, which would be full damage as, in the words of Dyntos, he has a broken keester.

    My only other comment would be involving the Donkey Kong series, which I would like to add that Dixie Kong would make a good enough addition as well, maybe as a skin for Diddy Kong. But absolutely yes when it comes to King K Rool.
     
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  3. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Retroactively remove the Meleefags from existence so that Smash can actually evolve as a series instead of having one of the most obnoxious fanbases in the history of videogames preventing literally any change from being seen in a positive light.

    Also I really don't see why the Kid Icarus series needs more representation. It has a total of three games, only one of which was released in this millennium. It already had a second character added, I don't see why that series needs 3 characters rather than the inclusion of long-term players like Ice climbers. Honestly, other than removing some of the more egregious clones, I wouldn't add any characters to Smash that weren't already in the series. Smash should focus on making better stages, gamemodes, and ensuring character balance rather than adding more characters (and forcing people to buy DLC characters in a business plan more akin to Sim City 4-EA than anything else).

    Though, honestly Smash would be most improved if Nintendo stopped making consoles / controllers with terrible schemes for the (simple) controls that Smash uses. The 3DS is awful for Smash, both because the Circlepad is incredibly bad at deciding whether something is up or left/right, while forcing the D-pad to be taunts (who the fuck even wants taunts) instead of a c-stick esque smash. The Wii U controller isn't much better (and weighs a lot more than anything ever should) and Wii motes are trash. I don't feel like trying to track down a Gamecube controller to actually play a game decently.
     
  4. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    I never considered this. That's actually a good idea.
    Perhaps having Doc as a Mario costume could also work, though idk how that'd work with his pills. Falco as a Fox costume would work too. Of course, this would massively upset fans of the previous games, so maybe not.
    He'd want to try and resolve disputes with a hint of civility, as opposed to violence. I feel like he'd be out of place. However, he could work.
    Could work a bit better. Not sure if the anti-Lucario mechanic would be smart, but I get a feeling like she would play more like how Bayonetta seems to be displaying herself. Could be interesting.
    I think they'd have to make things up... and they're not very good at that. Plus, they'd need to remove or remake the Reset Bomb Forest stage, as she appears to destroy the forest with the reset bomb. Unless you got Dyntos to replace her, as he can forge anything, I can't see how it'd work.

    Also, how did we both forget Pyrrhon? You want a replacement assist trophy if Phosphora or Magnus is used? Boom.

    The voice of the few drowns out of the voice of the many.
    I agree that mindframe is negative, as does anyone with any sense that isn't an outright fanboy. People enjoy Melee for mechanics that are not present in the Smash games that follow, but that does not make either game a "worse" game.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
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  5. Epikhairz

    Epikhairz Delta Stream

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    make it melee

    but really though, it seems like fans of melee are being generalized into your typical vocal minority "melee hell" shitposter, while in reality, most melee fans are okay with sm4sh. i personally don't enjoy playing sm4sh in comparison to melee, but i just do my own thing and let sm4sh people do their own thing. besides, i think most of us have given up hope on melee HD already and are just sticking to good old melee until melee HD actually does come around somehow, and we don't really care about how sm4sh and future smash titles are done because we're already perfectly content with melee.

    to answer the question though,

    i cannot fathom why ganon is still a falcon clone. hes one of gaming's most iconic baddies, just give him his own moveset already (or make him melee ganon xD).

    wolf as an addition would also be amazing marketing for the new star fox as well; it baffles me that he wasn't added. snake would be dope too but due to the issues with konami and kojima i can see how that wouldnt be realizable at the moment.

    and most importantly improve the damn single player. even brawl got this right with a somewhat captivating story mode (fuck great maze though) that if anything had some pretty juicy cutscenes. even 64 had a more fun single player experience imo with the OG classic mode and board the platforms. right now sm4sh single player is just a slog to go through and is only done to unlock customs. even smash 3ds had a better single player with smash run
     
  6. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    *facepalms* Fucking kill me, how'd I forget him? YES for him as an Assist Trophy if Phosphora or Magnus are used.

    EDIT: We also didn't bring up Medusa as a possible option, fml. She could just be a skin for Hades though.
     
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2015
  7. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Yeah, my warning in the OP was due to the vocal minority. I'm a follower of the Melee scene, so I am aware of this.

    The only enjoyable single-person experience I have with Smash 4 is beating the various challenges on the challenge board. Adventure mode and All-Star being new in Melee made it interesting, and Melee's All Star is still the best way they have made All Star thus far, in my opinion. However, nothing can compare to Subspace. I'm sure everyone was massively disappointed with the lack of a single player mode... especially consider we got Smash Tour on Wii U instead of Smash Run. Smash Run is fun, especially to me, as I'm a big fan of Kirby Air Ride's City Trial mode, the mode which Smash Run is based on.

    That's not to say 3DS is better than Brawl or Melee's single player offerings though. I think they focused too much on single player in Brawl, and too little in Smash 4. Maybe we can see Smash 5 on the NX be the best of both worlds? It'd be even better if we didn't have to use whatever new controller is released for the new console for Smash 5, cos lord knows the Classic Controller Pro and GameCube controller are good for Smash, and most other options are pretty bad overall in comparison.
     
  8. Celestial Phantom

    Celestial Phantom YAHA

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    This gonna be somewhat short and simple.

    - Remove the clones. Who would really want to play as Lucina, Doc Mario, or Dark Pit? Toon Link is a bit iffy, I see him being a more popular choice over normal Link a lot both in this game and brawl whenever he's played. The other 3 can go though, or like add as a second costume/choice. The only one I'm kind of fine having is Falco with Fox being "rivals" in the sense though Wolf would work, I still favor Falco more than Wolf.

    - Agree on trimming the Mon fat. Really don't like most of the mons anyway now, Pikachu has always been fun, and Jiggly is Jiggly (REST IS KILLUH). I honestly didn't enjoy PKMN trainer from Brawl, and was fine with Zard just being stand alone, I literally only used him whenever I played PKMN Trainer in Brawl anyway. Mewtwo still isn't that great, but hell it was awesome seeing him in Melee, so I don't mind he's back, just keep Pichu far away. Greninja is basically uber cool mon let's build around a NINJA POKEMON, because it looks cool, derp. Don't feel Lucario's kept up and don't like his play mechanics at all, wouldn't mind his removal.

    - Metroid only has the 2 reps, but ZSS and Samus differentiate enough from each other well enough, especially with how well ZSS handles as opposed to normal Samus. It was a good separation, just like Zelda and Shiek.

    - Despite him being more popular than normal link as far as I see, still remove Toon Link. If they want a toon like character, get Shantae in this game, I would have liked for her to have been added, but nope she wasn't. Toon enough to take over Link's spot, and not a Link clone.

    - Bring back Ice Climbers and Snake over some clones like Doc and Dark Pit, because they would have been better additions.

    - As far as other additions go, it's kind of hard to get more out of Nintendo console representation, outside a few already mentioned above, or randoms like Travis Touchdown from No More Heros, or adding King K. Rool just because Mario has Bowser, Link has Ganon, Kirby has Dedede. They get their large baddies, maybe they didn't want another large heavyweight that plays similar.

    - I was on the Banjo and Shovel Knight hype train with Shantae though, sad they didn't get in. Maybe next time they try to make a Smash game in the future even if Sakurai doesn't work on it. Would have been cool to see Amaterasu or Wolf Link + Midna combo in. Cloud being the first FF rep and Ryu being there for SF is very welcome, so going out of Nintendo console waters would be appreciated. Dunno who I'd really add past that though.

    - Mechanics wise, I would probably give a little more lee way with hit boxes. I don't mind the realism of small ones, but holy damn does it feel like whenever you get close to a air/combo hit if it's not spot on you just barely miss it. Always annoys me when I get it timed right there, and just miss the box by a fraction of a second with it being so precise now.

    - Maybe a bit more of a "rivalry" in story mode/smash mode. Like give everyone a sorta in game rival(s), where when you play their AI it can be a bit tougher of a match up than deemed before. I dunno if separating that into coding would be able to be done to have like a jump in slight difficulty b/c rival, but it would be cool if possible.

    - Can't really think of anything new that isn't just bringing up mechanics that melee had honestly. At least they made the ledge mechanics better.
     
  9. Sunny Girl

    Sunny Girl Goodbye, sweet summer days.

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    The best way to improve Smash Bros is to kill the elitist Melee players who keep ruining all the other Smash games by being putrid assholes about how Melee is the only good Smash game.

    Real though, Smash is a pretty solid game with a huge roster, massive amount of stages, trophies for collecting, all sorts of goodies. The only issue I've ever had with Smash at all is the music selection. Smash has had a lot of good tracks, such as Gourmet Race and Gerudo Valley, but some songs just don't seem to fit well within a fighting game, namely most of the Pikmin or Animal Crossing songs. I think it'd be nice if we got some more up-tempo mixes of the slower tunes, so when they do come on the fight doesn't feel so slow.
     
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  10. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Don't forget fucking Lumiose City for Pokemon lmao. When I walked into the city the first time, my thoughts were nowhere near "Hmm, I could destroy Mario to this".
     
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  11. Nicehat

    Nicehat PO client damage calc: preview.tinyurl.com/o8e7hss

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    Add Hatsune Miku (she has a 3DS game, so she's eligible, right??)

    Remove Final Destination, worst stage ever

    Add better color/costume customization, I want to be able to pick the color of Mario's overalls from a color gradient

    Remove all the boring shit pokemon from Pokeballs, nobody likes those
     
  12. Professor Oak

    Professor Oak same Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep Forum Administrator Server Owner Social Media Rep

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    Big post 2 from Oak. This time, I'm going to be talking about the movesets of characters, most notably their special moves. Quite a few movesets are already alright imo, so I won't comment on those ones.

    I'm going to start with the Mario Bros.: Mario and Luigi.
    Their neutral special is their Fireball, of which each has their own unique properties to help seperate the characters, and I think these are fine as is.
    Their up special is the Super Jump Punch. Luigi's is fine, as it is the oddball of the three, like Luigi is portrayed to be. Mario could do with a little more power to his Super Jump Punch, as it currently sucks at KOing anything, and is easily punishable if used. I wouldn't change the coin asthetic though.
    Mario's side special is the Cape from Super Mario World, so I understand why it's there. Luigi's is... the Green Missile... and I have no idea why. I kinda like it though
    Mario's down special is FLUDD from Super Mario Sunshine, which is another easy reference. One thing I might suggest as opposed to pushing opponents away is using FLUDD in its Rocket or Hover nozzles to give Mario some extra recovery. This would give it some extra use instead of just making it a move used to rarely push opponents off when they try to recover.
    Luigi's down special is the aforementioned Luigi Cyclone, based off of the Spin Jump introdued in Super Mario World and that has been in almost every 2D Mario game and some 3D Mario games since it was introduced, so it is another easy inclusion.
    The only other notable change I'd make is Luigi's grab. I'd make his grab the Poltergust, to give him a bigger grab range. The pummel can just be the Poltergust compressing on the opponent, the throws firing enemies in different directions with the Poltergust... but most important, can provide Luigi with a tether by sucking him closer to the edge by activating the grab in mid-air, like Samus' grapple beam does. This could change up the angle Luigi can approach the stage when recovering even more so, and give him even more recover utility. That Luigi would probably have the Poltergust on his back means you could keep the final Smash as the supercharged Poltergust too.

    The only change to Peach's specials I'd make would be to her side special, Peach Bomber, as I have no idea why she has that move. Perhaps they could have linked in Super Mario 3D World and given her cat claws to attack with in a dashing attack instead?

    I don't understand why Shiek has Burst Grenade at all. I can understand removing the chain, as it had very limited use, and it wasn't really relevant to Shiek... but neither does the grenade. Why not do something with Shiek's harp? The harp is used in OOT, and is a notable feature to Shiek's moveset in Hyrule Warriors, so why not? I'm not sure how to make it work, but it could be more interesting than the almost-never-used Burst Grenade. At the very least, in the air, give Sheik her tether back by using the side special. Bouncing Fish is also questionable, though it makes more sense, as a ninja will be more likely to move through the air stealthily than to use a grenade.

    Ganon needs to become less of a Falcon clone, despite Falcon being awesome lol. Warlock Blade, Ganon's first neutral custom special, would be a good alternative to Warlock Punch, as he uses the Sword of Sages he got from Twilight Princess, giving his move a bit of character. Even better, what if Ganon used his Trident from A Link to the Past, Four Swords Adventures and many other games?
    Ganon's other specials are just copied from Falcon, so they could all be removed too. He can remain a power character, but he has so many abilities that are not taken into consideration. For example, Agahnim from A Link to the Past has magic spells and lightning attacks, and Agahnim is literally Ganon's alter-ego. Hell, you could change Ganon into a sword-fighter with magic attacks overall, which would at least be more accurate to his character (although we don't need more swordfighters in Smash...)
    His fire-bat technique from A Link to the Past could become a projectile from him, or he could use energy balls like he did in OOT, or just Fireballs from the Oracles games...
    It just frustrates me that there is so much they could do with Ganondorf, and yet they just made him a Captain Falcon clone...

    Creating some differences between the 2 Links would make it easier to deal with having 2. Perhaps allowing Link to float down with his sailcloth once Spin Attack is used in the air would help. Have Toon Link use the Deku Leaf to float instead if you don't want to change the original. Let Toon Link use the Sand Rod, the Cane of Pacci and the Roc's Cape from games where a more Toon-ish Link exists, and have normal Link use the Spinner, Digging Mitts and other similar items. It would be easy to do with just a little bit of thought!

    Meta Knight could create tornadoes for his side special instead of having Drill Rush, which would give him a bit of projectile usage and improve him overall. Of course, this isn't a change I'd definitely make, it's just an option to give him a bit more utility.

    Fox and Falco, and Wolf if you include his Brawl incarnation, are hard to change. With Fox being the original, it'd make sense for Falco to change, right?
    Well, Fox had Star Fox Adventures, and got to fight with the staff in that game, so I think changing Fox would be the move to make.
    Keeping the blasters and reflectors makes sense, as I feel they are important parts of the Star Fox team. Changing Fox's side special to include his staff, as well as changing some of his normal moves to include it would allow a bit of a difference to be made. As for his up special... I would keep Fox's, and change Falco's. Fire Bird seems stupid, so why not have Falco do a vertical version of Falco Phantasm? That'd mean Falco had the Phantasm, Fox had the Fire and staff, and both would be different. As for Wolf... well, if he was added, the first thing to do would be to GET RID OF HIS LANDMASTER! His side and up specials would probably need to change a bit, but this is about Smash 4 anyway lol

    Jigglypuff needs a bit of tweaking. Its moves overall are pretty cool, with the exceptions of Rollout and Sing.
    Removing Sing would be annoying, as it is basically Jigglypuff's reason for being. Perhaps Sing could be made to be its Final Smash, where it could function similar to Peach's Final Smash, where enemies within a specific range are put to sleep, but instead of spawning peaches, Jigglypuff then violently attacks opponents that are within a smaller range with Wake-Up Slap, sending them flying with power similar to that of Blue Falcon or Counter. That way, it can get KOs on close enemies, and far enemies could be put to sleep to be combo'd / Rested afterwards.
    Rollout could remain, but it'd need to leave Jigglypuff less vulnerable after use, and more vulnerable during movement. Its mechanics could remain otherwise.
    Perhaps its up-special could be something like Gyro Ball, which could function like a vertical / diagonal Rollout? I'm unsure what to use here, but it'd help Jiggly to keep the best recovery in the game, as well as giving her another move to use in the air, possibly to use as a KOing move?

    Mewtwo's specials in Smash 4 could do with some tweaking. Bringing back the damage Shadow Ball could do whilst charging would be good, as would removing a little bit of the endlag after Teleport. Confusion was vastly improved to reflect projectiles and help with recovery too.
    That leaves Disable... which should be removed. It can be reflected back to stun Mewtwo, and is unlikely to hit anyway. Let's just get rid of it for another move. Calm Mind could work. Make it function similar to Wii Fit Trainer's Deep Breathing, and have Calm Mind boost all of Mewtwo's stats for a short while, giving Mewtwo a much better KO chance.

    Charizard suffers so much from being a laggy piece of shit lol. Give him overall less lag from his attacks, and that alone will help him out. Flare Blitz needs slightly less recovery time. Fly could become a two-prong attack, going up on first use, and then either going sideways or down, depending on the direction held, on the 2nd hit, if it was chosen to be used. This would give Charizard a bit of extra recovery room, make it harder for characters to read his recovery and react, but also leaves him open if he lands due to landing lag, balancing the move out. It would also allow Charizard to continue comboing the opponent if the opponent isn't KO'd by the first hit of Fly. Even better, just give Charizard his custom side special of Dragon Rush, which is a significantly better move.

    Captain Falcon just needs 1 change: Make the Knee easier to hit with. That is all I ask.

    The non-Ike sword-wielding Fire Emblem characters are really hard to improve and change. Marth can remain as the original, so the others need to change. Lucina is... just pointless to try and change. She literally uses the name Marth during Awakening, so the earlier suggestion to remove Lucina and rebrand her as an alternate costume for Marth is a good idea.
    With Lucina gone, let's try and make Roy less of a clone. His standard special is fine as is, being the strongest KO move in the game once charged. His up special could be kept too, as its properties are different enough to make it feel unique. I'd rather not keep Counter or Dancing Blade, but I simply do not know enough about Roy to change his moves. His Final Smash of Counter should remain, as that is a mechanic of Fire Emblem at least. I could do with some help with Roy!

    Pit was nerfed a lot in Smash 4 when compared to Brawl, but he was updated with specials that reflect his most recent appearance of Kid Icarus: Uprising. The only change I'd make is making his arrows more mobile again. Pit's 2nd neutral custom special, Guiding Bow, would be his standard if my idea was followed. As Dark Pit is literally a cloned version of Pit in Uprising, I am not even going to bother trying to fix him.

    I like Wario. He's a decent character overall, and I think they did a good job with him. I have one issue: Why did they change his forward smash? That shoulder tackle is Wario's main attack from the Wario Land series of games, and it really annoys me that they got rid of it. BRING IT BACK!

    ROB could do with his Arm Rotor coming out faster, but lasting longer. This would allow him to reflect projectiles better, but at the cost of it doing less damage overall if used for damage.

    Sonic needs a few changes. First off, bring back "You're too slow!" Secondly, his homing attack needs to be improved. I'm unsure how this could be done without ruining the attack completely... so that's what I'm going to do! Sonic's first custom neutral special, Stomp, is going to be used instead, to bounce down on enemies instead of homing in.
    Finally, we need to remove one of the two spin dash moves: Side special, or down special. Asthetically, I prefer down special, because holding down and mashing the jump button was how you boosted the spin dash in Sonic games. As such, we need a new side special for Sonic.
    Let's have it be the Boost that Sonic has received in newer Sonic games, starting with Sonic Rush. Sonic boosts forward, increasing his speed to maximum and causing damage to opponents, so it could be an alternative dash attack of sorts. I'm open to better suggestions lol

    The only change I'd make to Rosalina and Luma is to give Gravitational Pull a nerf. Currently, Rosalina can outright block Ness and Lucas' recovery, can stop half of Pacman and Villager's movesets and be generally immune to projectiles if used well. Add some notable start up or ending lag to Gravitational Pull, and it'll make those matches a bit more fair.

    I don't really get why Greninja needs a counter move in the form of Substitute. I don't know what to replace it with though, so I guess I'll leave it. Suggestions are welcome!

    Palutena's default specials are a bit rubbish. Custom specials make up for it. Just use some of the customs as default, and she's better.

    Whilst Little Mac is meant to be a ground-character with piss poor aerial ability, but his attacks are already bad enough in the air. Just let him get back to the stage easier! His side special needs rebuffing to cover more distance in the air imo.

    Cloud seems to have a lot of ending lag to a lot of his moves. Reduce that a bit, and he becomes a lot more fearsome.

    Finally, I have no idea how to make DHD better, but they need to be improved imo.


    So how would you make the movesets of characters better?
     
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  13. Xdevo

    Xdevo Phrasing Super Moderator Tour Director Super Moderator Tour Director

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    Lucas and Ness should have considerably less lag on most of the PK moves except fire. It'd also be nice if PK Ice and PK Burst (Ness's up+b) didn't make you take a hit or touch ground before being able to move (idk why that's even needed, neither really needed a nerf in anyway). Getting back the faster Bat smash would also be a huge boon. It'd also be cool if Ness's Yo-Yo could be added to his grab, or at least allow it grab edges from farther away.

    give Pikachu back the Thunder from Brawl.
     
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  14. Joeypals!!

    Joeypals!! Don't you worry 'bout a thing~

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    Again, I'll speak in terms of Kid Icarus, because I get the flavoring there.

    [​IMG]

    Let's start with Pit/Angelboy/Fuckboy/Cupid. As Oak noted, Pit's specials were largely changed due to Uprising, though that doesn't mean I'm completely fine with what I'm given. The Power of Flight for his up special is fairly obvious as is his arrow (though I will contend that the mobility is fine with my usage) for the neutral special, but the most tinkering can be done with the side and down specials. The Guardian Orbitars are a very good choice for Pit, though I was pretty disappointed that the Centurion Orbitars weren't at least an option for another attack, amplified by damage they take (though they'll fall if they take too much). I mean, the Centurions were his final smash in Brawl, the little warriors not returning for Pit in SSB4 seems... blah. As for his side special, I'd take away his Uppercut Arm and replace it with either the Electroshock Arm (what Dark Pit currently has -- I'll get to that little shit later), the Bomb Arm, or the Drill Arm if you wanna stick in the realm of Arms. If you wanted to go to other Weapons, you could easily go to Claws (Brawler Claws would fit best) or even Clubs (Halo Club) for the replacement.

    [​IMG]

    Now, onto Dark Pit/Fuckboy2/Shadow's idol. As with Pit, I'm fine with his Power of Flight staying with Viridi's help, though giving him the option to fly on his own a la Pit in Brawl would give him a good way to separate himself off the bat. The bows are fine too, I guess, but it were up to me, I'd revolve the rest of the attacks around his staff. For the neutral special, I'd have him fire a shot from the staff, somewhat like ZSS's laser gun. For his side special, you could have him battering his opponents with the staff similar to the dancing blades technique the Fire Emblem characters have. As for his down special, a counter seems pretty fitting to be the opposite of Pit's reflect. Pit simply shoots projectiles the other way, Dark Pit handles problems up close and personal -- makes sense, and the counter animation can deal with his staff. His grabs could also be done with the staff, somewhat like Fox, but that's a different post for a different day.

    [​IMG]

    Finally, Lady Palutena/MILF(?). I feel like I'm the only one fine with a great deal of most of her customs, as it allows her to play a defensive game with those specials as she plays a very offensive game with her standards (have you been hit by those wings? They don't simply brush off). The only thing I would change is Autoreticle, as most of the time it simply doesn't work. Explosive Flame is a great replacement for it, and would've been my choice if designing Palutena as that gives her a dependable, ranged attack that at most would be absorbed by Ness/Lucas if it missed (or Rosalina, I guess). If I had to get rid of either Reflect or Counter, the Reflect would have to go, but only if Angelic Missile becomes the replacement.